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Baku
Aug 20, 2005

by Fluffdaddy

Mega64 posted:

It manages to be a remake that alienates both players who grew up with the SNES and beyond games and players who loved the original.

I can pretty much agree here.

I think rebalancing jobs so there's a reason to have an endgame party other than Ninja/Ninja/Sage/Sage is a good idea, as well as making some of the ones that are nearly useless in the NES game viable, but they didn't do this right at all. The bad jobs still seem kinda bad, and nerfing the endgame ones without even having the courtesy to add save points to the final dungeon (much less weaken the final boss) is dumb. In a way it feels like FF4DS, i.e. being clearly designed for a person who has beaten the NES version multiple times to have a new experience with the game, but as you point out some of the changes would be annoying and alienating for those people as well.

Their DS ports are weird, and I'm really curious to see how they improve/gently caress-up 5 and 6.

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Ulio
Feb 17, 2011


victrix posted:

If you can, play it emulated - the textures are amazingly high res, which is totally lost on the PS2.

Yes this how I am playing it, the ps2 version looks a bit rough.


ThePhenomenalBaby posted:

Close to the end game all of your characters will become pretty homogenous in ability, primarily being separated by very minor statistical differences and whatever you equip them with I guess. Essentially you'll have 6 incredibly powerful and versatile clones, which I found to not be very interesting.

But isn't this pretty much the case with every RPG, when you get towards the end game, characters will gain many skills outside their original class's sphere.

E; I think I am playing the international version.

Ulio fucked around with this message at 18:22 on Jan 31, 2013

SpazmasterX
Jul 13, 2006

Wrong about everything XIV related
~fartz~

jivjov posted:

Do they ever do discounts on FFXI subs? I really want to tool around in that game some more, but not at $14 a month.

Unfortunately no, not that I can think of. Usually the only thing they make cheap is new editions of the game itself.

Fryhtaning
Jul 21, 2010

SpazmasterX posted:

Unfortunately no, not that I can think of. Usually the only thing they make cheap is new editions of the game itself.

The only thing I miss more than FFXI is all the free time I had in college to play such a game. I don't think any game will ever capture the feeling of being in such a massive world with a massive story like FFXI did.

Azure_Horizon
Mar 27, 2010

by Reene

Ulio posted:

Yes this how I am playing it, the ps2 version looks a bit rough.


But isn't this pretty much the case with every RPG, when you get towards the end game, characters will gain many skills outside their original class's sphere.

E; I think I am playing the international version.

No, not really. Most RPGs have differentiated characters, even through to the endgame.

Dr Pepper
Feb 4, 2012

Don't like it? well...

MarsDragon posted:

Also, quick tip. Equips are very important in FFXII, and most classes of weapons have some difference in the stats they use or something about them that makes them different besides damage. Look those up, because they're useful, but I don't think they come right out and say in game "oh hey maces use your magic stat and katanas are strength+magic but blah blah blah".

Actually they do. The Clan Primer contains a ton of info on how to play the game, including basic information on what stats weapons uses.

Schwartzcough
Aug 12, 2009

Don't tease the Octopus, kids!

Twelve by Pies posted:

He just gave the standard speech about how you can tell the weather by looking at the sky, but he wasn't Weather Eye and he never said "It's the Rains now...the Dry will be coming soon" or whatever.

So oddly, I made it to Bur-Omisace and teleported back, and it was still the Rains and the Seeq was still not Weather Eye. So I decided to run around and try and find some Mardu Entites to kill since I hadn't gone back since getting the Zodiac Spear and Bubble. As soon as I came back to Rabanastre, it was immediately the Dry in Giza and talking to the Seeq made him go "Just call me Weather Eye!" and made him start saying the standard "It's the beginning of the Dry, should be some time before the Rains come."

I'm willing to accept that maybe I came in a few seconds before the Rains ended and the Dry began, but still have no clue why the Seeq didn't turn into Weather Eye until after the Dry happened.

I think I'd read somewhere that some people got a glitch where the rotation didn't start until they went back into Giza, or into Jahara or something. Sounds like what happened here. I think the Seeq becoming Weather Eye is triggered by the rotation starting, and not an independent event.

MarsDragon
Apr 27, 2010

"You've all learned something very important here: there are things in this world you just can't change!"

Dr Pepper posted:

Actually they do. The Clan Primer contains a ton of info on how to play the game, including basic information on what stats weapons uses.

I was thinking of something in dialog, like an NPC mentioning it. But I may be misremembering or missed talking to someone. It's just something you might not think to check if you're used to weapons being ranged/not ranged and more/less damage.

Either way just give the Clan Primer a go over and you'll get a lot of useful information.

Baku
Aug 20, 2005

by Fluffdaddy
So did anybody here play the DS remake of FFL/Saga 2? I was just talking about that game in an LP thread and remembering how much I enjoyed the concept but hated the actual gameplay, and wondered if the DS version did the oldschool Saga mechanics any favors or stuck really closely to them and was mostly just a graphical overhaul.

Fingers McLongDong
Nov 30, 2005

not eromenos
Fun Shoe

Dr Pepper posted:

Actually they do. The Clan Primer contains a ton of info on how to play the game, including basic information on what stats weapons uses.

Along that thought, if youre like me and hate checking in-game logs for info, the strategy guide that came out for ffxii was one of the best Ive had. Very in depth about the various mechanics and stats.

Ulio
Feb 17, 2011


Azure_Horizon posted:

No, not really. Most RPGs have differentiated characters, even through to the endgame.

It's just noticable in some games more than others but most rpgs have it to some extent. FFX is another good example of homogeneous roles of character, at the end everyone feel like ultra strong jack of all trades.

Mega64
May 23, 2008

I took the octopath less travelered,

And it made one-eighth the difference.

THE AWESOME GHOST posted:

I have finished FFX-2, FF:Tactics, Tactics Advance, Tactics Advance 2, Chocobo's Dungeon, and all of the mainline games from FF1-13 except for FF3 which I have on the DS.

I wasn't having much fun with it already and reading how bad it gets just made me stop playing.

The NES version isn't as bad as the remake. It still has a lot of flaws (annoying dungeon gimmicks, lack of save points with very lengthy dungeons), but it also has a much smoother difficulty curve than the DS version, and other than the final dungeon and Nepto Shrine the bullshit dungeons usually have no boss or an easy one. Plus the jobs that are useful are pretty awesome.

Helpful hints for those who may play this game in the future: Dual-wielding is awesome as hell, though Shields have their uses as well. Black Magic generally sucks in this game, so after awhile you'll probably want three physical classes and a White Mage, or maybe a gimmicky class like Conjurer if you're feeling risky. Try to level in jobs with high vitality/HP growth, like Monks, Vikings, and Knights, as while other stats change between jobs, HP is constant. Summons are awesome as hell once you have Summoners (not the Conjurers, who have weaker random effects for the summons) and Sages, especially the latter with their insane pools of MP.

It's still a rough game with a couple of ridiculous difficulty spikes that are usually more random chance than anything (Big Rat, Garuda), but it's still a nice game with an interesting story theme, fantastic music, fun and quick battles, and some pretty cool moments. It's also the game to nail the standard FF formula and introduce many of the series' staples, so it's cool to play just for that.

Azure_Horizon
Mar 27, 2010

by Reene

Ulio posted:

It's just noticable in some games more than others but most rpgs have it to some extent. FFX is another good example of homogeneous roles of character, at the end everyone feel like ultra strong jack of all trades.

Which is a noticeable issue with FFX; although FFX at least had separate, unique Overdrives to make some difference between characters. FF7 and 8 also had this problem.

Mega64
May 23, 2008

I took the octopath less travelered,

And it made one-eighth the difference.
Doesn't it take a lot of grinding to get to that point in FFX, though? Your characters are going to be distinct for a long time besides maybe Kihmari taking a similar path to some other character.

That said, I think 5 and 10 have the right idea of giving you huge customization options, but making it somewhat difficult to have everyone learn everything. Thus your characters will still serve specific roles, except you're choosing the roles for each character, and it's not something you can just swap around like Materia/Junctions, and it's not easy to just learn most of the important stuff like magic in FF6. Yet if you want to grind and make everyone similar, the option is there.

All that said, I also enjoy having set character development like FF4/FF9 which restricts how you can handle certain battles, forcing you to be a bit creative at times in your strategy.

Twelve by Pies
May 4, 2012

Again a very likpatous story

Azure_Horizon posted:

Which is a noticeable issue with FFX; although FFX at least had separate, unique Overdrives to make some difference between characters. FF7 and 8 also had this problem.

Seven and 8 at least had a few things that could differentiate characters. For 7 it was weapons, some characters had low attack power weapons which meant that they were probably better off as mage-types, some characters like Barret/Yuffie/Vincent got a lot of back row compatible weapons, and then you have the materia slots for each weapon, which could change how you used them. Cloud got the Nail Bat fairly early on for example, which had no Materia slots but very high attack power for that point in the game, which meant he'd make a good physical attacker but would be limited spell-wise.

Mega64 posted:

Doesn't it take a lot of grinding to get to that point in FFX, though? Your characters are going to be distinct for a long time besides maybe Kihmari taking a similar path to some other character.

Yep, which honestly is why I don't understand the "Your characters aren't very different in XII" complaint, it's not that different from previous FF games, and actually your characters in XII will be very distinct at first unless you just give them all the same licenses, which would be pretty ridiculous. By the end of the game yeah, you're going to fill out the license board for everybody, but I honestly don't see how that's any different than filling out the Sphere Grid in X or mastering all the jobs via Movers in V.

Fight Club Sandwich
Apr 29, 2006

you want a piece of me???

Mega64 posted:

Doesn't it take a lot of grinding to get to that point in FFX, though? Your characters are going to be distinct for a long time besides maybe Kihmari taking a similar path to some other character.

Yes. It's completely normal to complete all the optional content at least in FFX vanilla while still maintaining yuna/lulu as casters, tidus/auron/wakka as heavy hitters, etc. You need to make a conscious effort to force lulu through all the +STR spheres or auron through all the +MAG spheres.

Only if you do a huge amount of grinding for grindings sake to approach the characters becoming homogeneous, and even then each has unique equips and overdrives that theres still lots of strategy in switching them out. Never played FFX Intl though (still waiting for FFX HD).

MMF Freeway
Sep 15, 2010

Later!
I never tried the optional stuff in 10 because, from what I remember, by the time you've almost completed the main game you're no where near ready to take on even the easiest super boss. Don't you need to grind a poo poo ton of levels just to get your spheres in order to even start taking them on? This isn't even considering getting the ultimate weapons too which I think are necessary (or at least the damage limit break is). And I think the prevailing advice was just "grind until you have +4 stat spheres in everything then spam quick attack".

Raphus C
Feb 17, 2011

voltron lion force posted:

I never tried the optional stuff in 10 because, from what I remember, by the time you've almost completed the main game you're no where near ready to take on even the easiest super boss. Don't you need to grind a poo poo ton of levels just to get your spheres in order to even start taking them on? This isn't even considering getting the ultimate weapons too which I think are necessary (or at least the damage limit break is). And I think the prevailing advice was just "grind until you have +4 stat spheres in everything then spam quick attack".

There was a lot of walking around to find the monsters you had to capture to get the optional bosses that you had to fight to get the stat-spheres. Then you had to get the character's weapons. Then you had to kill the boss monsters again and again and again. 100s of hours there. I grind my way up to kill a few of the Dark Aeons, but then got bored. Unfortunately, my first play through I went to kill the Dark-A's before I completed the game, which made the final bosses pathetically easy. Wakka and Tidus' overrives hit multiple times for 99,999. Luckily, I went straight through the second time.

Grinding is boring, but y brother made the mistake of deleting loads of the magic-stat buffs for Yuna and Lulu to replace them with strength spheres. Then, when he wanted to go kill the Flan that gives you magic spheres he saw how poor his magic was and how long each fight would last....

You can bribe that yojimbo-type summon to one-shot the Dark-Aeons if you want to avoid the grinding.

FFX was good for the ability to completely re-write your character's abilities and stats. I kept my characters in their roles but buffed them by killing the larger monsters. It had the best of both worlds.

SpazmasterX
Jul 13, 2006

Wrong about everything XIV related
~fartz~

Fight Club Sandwich posted:

Yes. It's completely normal to complete all the optional content at least in FFX vanilla while still maintaining yuna/lulu as casters, tidus/auron/wakka as heavy hitters, etc. You need to make a conscious effort to force lulu through all the +STR spheres or auron through all the +MAG spheres.

Yup. Last time I played X I used the Tonberry trick to get a poo poo ton of sphere levels and I still ended up with Auron/Tidus as my attackers and Yuna as my ridiculously broken caster.

Captain Vittles
Feb 12, 2008

I'm not a nerd! I'm a video game enthusiast.

Zombies' Downfall posted:

So did anybody here play the DS remake of FFL/Saga 2? I was just talking about that game in an LP thread and remembering how much I enjoyed the concept but hated the actual gameplay, and wondered if the DS version did the oldschool Saga mechanics any favors or stuck really closely to them and was mostly just a graphical overhaul.

It adds some new gameplay elements (Threads of Fate) and optional stuff like cutscenes, item hunting, etc, but the core mechanics of the game are the same as the original. Monster evolving is a bit more complex but a lot more awesome, because sometimes you get to carry over the old abilities from your last form or even upgrade to a higher form than expected for the given world you're in. The plot of the game seems mostly the same up to the point I had reached (Edo).

The SaGa 3 remake is much more extensive and I find it a lot more fun to play, though I haven't even finished the Future world in that game yet so I don't know if it suddenly turns to crap later or not.

Bellmaker
Oct 18, 2008

Chapter DOOF



Mega64 posted:

The NES version isn't as bad as the remake. It still has a lot of flaws (annoying dungeon gimmicks, lack of save points with very lengthy dungeons), but it also has a much smoother difficulty curve than the DS version, and other than the final dungeon and Nepto Shrine the bullshit dungeons usually have no boss or an easy one. Plus the jobs that are useful are pretty awesome.

Helpful hints for those who may play this game in the future: Dual-wielding is awesome as hell, though Shields have their uses as well. Black Magic generally sucks in this game, so after awhile you'll probably want three physical classes and a White Mage, or maybe a gimmicky class like Conjurer if you're feeling risky. Try to level in jobs with high vitality/HP growth, like Monks, Vikings, and Knights, as while other stats change between jobs, HP is constant. Summons are awesome as hell once you have Summoners (not the Conjurers, who have weaker random effects for the summons) and Sages, especially the latter with their insane pools of MP.

It's still a rough game with a couple of ridiculous difficulty spikes that are usually more random chance than anything (Big Rat, Garuda), but it's still a nice game with an interesting story theme, fantastic music, fun and quick battles, and some pretty cool moments. It's also the game to nail the standard FF formula and introduce many of the series' staples, so it's cool to play just for that.

I'll throw my own additional tips here:

- Black Mages aren't that great early on. Red Mages are amazing until the second set of jobs, but worthless after that. A lot of jobs can cast healing magic (Hunter and M. Knight), so don't feel obligated to have a White Mage at all times. You can get by without a main healer for a very, very long time. Hipotions are pretty swell in this game. You will want a Shaman at the end, though.
- Buy in bulk, you get a discount for buying 4 or 10 of an item (Hipotions).
- Thieves can open locked doors if they're the lead
- Keep your one-shot attack items for Nepto Shrine and for the Living Castle
- Status effects are really effective (Mini, Toad, Exit, Warp will hit often, Break2 almost never misses and Death does what it says on the tin).
- Weapons with status effects are really good, you're hitting a bajillion times and getting a chance to trigger off each one (Ancient Sword will paralyze every time, you only get 40 Medusa arrows but 40 things are gonna die).
- Conjurers are better than advertised, as Shiva/Ramuh like to inflict Sleep/Paralysis and like I said earlier status effects own
- Blood Spear is drat near broken in this game. If your dragoon connects on a Jump his HP is full (unless it's undead of course).
- ALWAYS CARRY AN OTTERHEAD
- Be level 9 for Nepto Shrine, 22-23 for Salonia, and 50ish for the endgame and you should be good. You really don't need to grind that much for an NES game
- In addition to status protection Ribbons protect against Fire/Ice/Elec/Earth damage. Meteo deals earth damage.
- This is one of the only FF games you're gonna want all that extra cash at the end. Sell everything you're not using.
- Dual-wielding includes shields. If you've played FF5 I'm sure you can think of a way to abuse this.

And of course:
- DUAL-WIELD ALL THE TIME

Bellmaker fucked around with this message at 04:56 on Feb 1, 2013

Fur20
Nov 14, 2007

すご▞い!
君は働か░い
フ▙▓ズなんだね!

Mega64 posted:

Doesn't it take a lot of grinding to get to that point in FFX, though? Your characters are going to be distinct for a long time besides maybe Kihmari taking a similar path to some other character.
It takes so much grinding you literally have to exploit the system to be able to feasibly get to that point.

Fight Club Sandwich posted:

Yes. It's completely normal to complete all the optional content at least in FFX vanilla while still maintaining yuna/lulu as casters, tidus/auron/wakka as heavy hitters, etc. You need to make a conscious effort to force lulu through all the +STR spheres or auron through all the +MAG spheres.
Well, maybe not all of it, but definitely a lot. I couldn't imagine doing the monster arena without the Don Tonberry exploit.

I kinda wish the abilities had been unique to each character and you could delete them all while still keeping the stuff that's native to everyone's starting grid areas, but then that would lead to some weird poo poo like Lulu losing Drain and Osmose.

Bellmaker posted:

- Be level 9 for Nepto Shrine, 22-23 for Salonia, and 50ish for the endgame and you should be good. You really don't need to grind that much for an NES game
Unless, of coruse, you want to hit 9999 HP. If you don't start leveling Master until the late 30s, there's an exponential chance you won't be able to hit the cap, and that probably means doing Saronia in the teens, maybe 20 tops. I hate that formula, it's so bad.

Fur20 fucked around with this message at 04:59 on Feb 1, 2013

victrix
Oct 30, 2007


Does anyone here know how well FFTA 1/2 were received in Japan?

Scher
Sep 15, 2011

~Solar Sect of Mystic Wisdom~
All this advice for FF3 makes me think that playing the NES version would have been a lot less frustrating. I figured a remake would have been a bit less archaic, but apparently they decided that they needed to make everything more "balanced".

I'm finally going to the water crystal dungeon, but ugh, this game. The fire crystal boss was stupid and I don't understand why bosses get to attack twice in one turn. Having a boss breath fire on my group and then kill my mage with a physical attack afterwards, despite him being at full health at the beginning of the turn, isn't challenging. It's just plain frustrating.

a crisp refreshing Moxie
May 2, 2007


Scher posted:

All this advice for FF3 makes me think that playing the NES version would have been a lot less frustrating. I figured a remake would have been a bit less archaic, but apparently they decided that they needed to make everything more "balanced".

I'm finally going to the water crystal dungeon, but ugh, this game. The fire crystal boss was stupid and I don't understand why bosses get to attack twice in one turn. Having a boss breath fire on my group and then kill my mage with a physical attack afterwards, despite him being at full health at the beginning of the turn, isn't challenging. It's just plain frustrating.


I can't speak for the NES version, but FF3DS is just flat-out a Bad Game. I don't even remember having fun for most of it (Mini Dungeon, ugh), and you can easily lose hours of progress in the last dungeon simply as a result of bad luck and bad game design.

victrix
Oct 30, 2007


I finished FF3 and I can't remember a drat thing about it

Also DS 3d graphics are loving hideous. Like PS1 era eye gouging horror.

Armor-Piercing
Sep 22, 2009

Nightly dance
of bleeding swords


I've only played the DS version of FF3, enjoyed it thoroughly, and intend to replay it at some point using a team of the "worst" jobs. I had to do the entire final dungeon twice (I died at the final boss on my first attempt), and it was frustrating, but only enough for me to make sure I did it right the second time.

The final dungeon in FF4 (PSP version), however, was annoying enough that I almost stopped playing.

1st AD
Dec 3, 2004

Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu: sometimes passing just isn't an option.
The iOS/Android version of FF3 is tolerable because you can create a quicksave on any map that persists until you do a regular save or start a new game.

Dr Pepper
Feb 4, 2012

Don't like it? well...

Twelve by Pies posted:

Yep, which honestly is why I don't understand the "Your characters aren't very different in XII" complaint, it's not that different from previous FF games, and actually your characters in XII will be very distinct at first unless you just give them all the same licenses, which would be pretty ridiculous.

The main issue is that LP was very easy to get. So it was easy to fill out the entire licence board without any grinding at all.

Barudak
May 7, 2007

Dr Pepper posted:

The main issue is that LP was very easy to get. So it was easy to fill out the entire licence board without any grinding at all.

Topped with it being the best way to get huge chunks of HP, Quickenings, and other base stat bonuses it's rather crazy not to heavily invest in similar license grid distributions.

Azure_Horizon
Mar 27, 2010

by Reene

Barudak posted:

Topped with it being the best way to get huge chunks of HP, Quickenings, and other base stat bonuses it's rather crazy not to heavily invest in similar license grid distributions.

Exactly. There's no incentive not to make everyone the same in vanilla FFXII, and was one of the larger reasons I stopped playing.

nene.
Aug 27, 2009

power
Play the motherfuckin Zodiac Job System. Right now!!!!!!

victrix
Oct 30, 2007


Seriously - in ZJ you must pick 6 classes out of 12, you cannot change them later, and all of their boards are different

MMF Freeway
Sep 15, 2010

Later!
Yeah it owns.

Twelve by Pies
May 4, 2012

Again a very likpatous story

Dr Pepper posted:

The main issue is that LP was very easy to get. So it was easy to fill out the entire licence board without any grinding at all.

I dunno about that, I'm at the Stilshrine of Miriam right now and I've been grinding like hell to do events as soon as they become available (I have Cuchulainn and Adrammelech right now and have finished all hunts available at this moment) and I don't think I'm even halfway through the LB with most of my characters, except for maybe Balthier because he's been stuck in reserve with a Golden Amulet on the entire game. Most enemies only give you 1 LP, a rare couple will give you 2, it's really only marks and rare game that give large amounts of LP but I qualify that as "grinding" since you don't need to do any of that to just play the story, plus most marks and rare game require strategies that you probably wouldn't be able to implement unless you've been going out of your way to get certain abilities.

Barudak posted:

Topped with it being the best way to get huge chunks of HP, Quickenings, and other base stat bonuses it's rather crazy not to heavily invest in similar license grid distributions.

Yeah but with most of those augments costing a hefty chunk of LP, you're going to have to choose who gets what. Yeah you could give everybody Battle Lore and Shield Block and ignore the Magic Lore licenses but then when you come up against say, White Mousse or Orthros you're going to be kind of poo poo out of luck if you haven't been training someone as a mage-type and ignoring the physical augments for them. Yes, by the end of the game you're going to have gotten the augments you wanted and can now start going after the other ones, making everybody more similar, but that's the same thing the Sphere Grid did and everybody loves the hell out of that thing, and again, it's going to take a long time to get to that point if you're not doing the optional content.

Azure_Horizon posted:

Exactly. There's no incentive not to make everyone the same in vanilla FFXII, and was one of the larger reasons I stopped playing.

You could make everyone the same in FFV and Tactics too, but it'd be ridiculous to do so, so I don't really see how that's a complaint? I mean if you're giving everybody sword and shield licenses and all the same magic stuff then yeah, of course they're going to be the same, but that'd be like making everybody a Knight and giving them !White in FFV and going "Ugh they're all the same so boring." Well, change them up. Right now, at the Stilshrine, I have Ashe as the only user of katanas and wearing mystic armor, and she's up to date on all current magic. Basch has the Zodiac Spear and most of the heavy armor licenses, since I got a Maximillian in the Necrohol on the way to the spear. Vaan is my light armor user and has swords, daggers, and ninja swords, as well as guns for flying enemies (Basch has bows, and Ashe just slings spells at fliers), as well as a few support spells. All three of them fill different roles, and the way I have them equipped, they're distinctly different. For example Basch with the Icebrand consistently does about 1200 damage per hit, whereas Vaan with the Icebrand will only do about 800. Ashe's Cura heals a little over a thousand HP, and Vaan's only cures a little over 700.

And I still don't have enough LP to give everyone the same stuff right now, even with all my rare game hunting and grinding. Vaan hasn't touched the lower right of the LB where the katana licenses are, and it would take Basch a while before he could get to the guns that Vaan has now, not to mention he has almost no spells whatsoever currently. Ashe is pretty limited on accessories since she's gotten a lot of magic and had to burn through Axes and Hammers to get to Katanas (only did that because I got a lucky Magoroku drop in Salikawood).

victrix posted:

Seriously - in ZJ you must pick 6 classes out of 12, you cannot change them later, and all of their boards are different

That doesn't appeal to me. I liked the job system in Tactics and V because I could shift around and change my tactics to fit the situation. Having to lock someone into something without being able to change it just isn't my thing. All I can think of is fighting against flying enemies and going "Well Basch is goddamn useless because he's a Knight and can't equip a bow or use black magic, so he's loving dead weight."

If you could swap classes around, and your stats/abilities/equips changed accordingly, that'd be pretty cool to me. Not that it matters, as I don't really have any way to play it anyway so it hardly matters.

Holy poo poo that is way too many words about FFXII. And I'm not even that heavily invested in it. I just don't get the complaints, that's all. It's certainly better on making characters unique than say, 7 was, and I don't think I've ever heard anyone say they couldn't stand 7 because "the characters are all the same."

MMF Freeway
Sep 15, 2010

Later!

Twelve by Pies posted:

That doesn't appeal to me. I liked the job system in Tactics and V because I could shift around and change my tactics to fit the situation. Having to lock someone into something without being able to change it just isn't my thing. All I can think of is fighting against flying enemies and going "Well Basch is goddamn useless because he's a Knight and can't equip a bow or use black magic, so he's loving dead weight."

If you could swap classes around, and your stats/abilities/equips changed accordingly, that'd be pretty cool to me. Not that it matters, as I don't really have any way to play it anyway so it hardly matters.

Holy poo poo that is way too many words about FFXII. And I'm not even that heavily invested in it. I just don't get the complaints, that's all. It's certainly better on making characters unique than say, 7 was, and I don't think I've ever heard anyone say they couldn't stand 7 because "the characters are all the same."

Well lemme just say that there is stuff like that in IZJS even if locked classes isn't appealing to you. You only have three active slots and six classes to choose from so naturally there will be some character switching depending on the situation. The classes are generally not that restrictive, but even if you make a "bad" party you can always find a solution for almost any encounter with the tools you have. Even flying enemies, to go with your example, can be hit by knots of rust which can be found everywhere and can be used by any class. But an even better solution would be to switch to your Black mage and toast them. Its stuff like that that IZJS actually encourages as opposed to vanilla where you only ever needed three nearly identical characters.

MMF Freeway fucked around with this message at 23:58 on Feb 1, 2013

Momomo
Dec 26, 2009

Dont judge me, I design your manhole
I don't really get why people are so excited that the classes are more confined in the Zodiac edition. There is a much, much bigger reason to play that: The ability to make the game run twice as fast.

Twelve by Pies
May 4, 2012

Again a very likpatous story

Momomo posted:

I don't really get why people are so excited that the classes are more confined in the Zodiac edition.

Yeah, I don't either. It'd be like someone praising Final Fantasy I over V or Tactics because you can never change your character's jobs in the first game (outside of upgrading them).

voltron lion force posted:

You only have three active slots and six classes to choose from

I guess that's what bugs me about it. There's less freedom. Part of the fun in the FF games with jobs is unlocking a new job and going "Oh man this looks neat, let me see what it can do" or getting a really nice piece of equipment and swapping to a job where you could use it. With IZJS that isn't a possibility. For example, if you didn't make anybody a Knight, then you can't use Excalibur, ever. That's not fun to me, finding a weapon that's really awesome but you can't use it because gently caress you, you didn't pick the right jobs at the beginning of the game.

Schwartzcough
Aug 12, 2009

Don't tease the Octopus, kids!
While your characters probably will have some differentiation in vanilla XII, unless people specifically give themselves handicaps the naturally inclination is to get the "best" licenses for everyone. Chances are all or most of your characters will have the white magics, and will load up on the passive augments (+HP, Battle and Magic Lores, etc.). Everyone will have some sort of decent melee weapon. You may even give everyone mystic hats and heavy body armor, because helmets only provide M. Def and body armor only provides physical defense, and mystic helmets and heavy armor give the most of each. There is really no reason to use your whole team unless you want a backup team if your primary gets wiped out.

But when each character has a class, it makes them unique and specialized. It's fun to play with specialized units and see how they work together. It's fun to find the right "tool" by deciding which classes work best for a boss or area. And the specialized classes are better at their job than a character can get in vanilla, since fighters get more Battle Lores than the vanilla license board had, and same with mage classes. Plus, removal of the damage class makes specialized units shine- you can either go for combos of weaker hits with Katanas, or smash something with huge single-damage hits with greatswords or black magic for 10,000+ damage.

Plus, there's just something fun about some restrictions. Not every team is going to be able to throw on Protect, Shell, Haste, and Berserk. You need to learn to play to your team's strengths rather than having every possible tool available to you at all times.

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Fur20
Nov 14, 2007

すご▞い!
君は働か░い
フ▙▓ズなんだね!

Schwartzcough posted:

While your characters probably will have some differentiation in vanilla XII, unless people specifically give themselves handicaps the naturally inclination is to get the "best" licenses for everyone. Chances are all or most of your characters will have the white magics, and will load up on the passive augments (+HP, Battle and Magic Lores, etc.). Everyone will have some sort of decent melee weapon. You may even give everyone mystic hats and heavy body armor, because helmets only provide M. Def and body armor only provides physical defense, and mystic helmets and heavy armor give the most of each. There is really no reason to use your whole team unless you want a backup team if your primary gets wiped out.
Oddly enough, for as much as I enjoy gamebreaking, I also like making manual specialization. I'm sure I coulda run around with a Zodiac Spear and Tournesol with a third spamming Haste and Berserk, but I only kept Basch on Kill Everything Duty; I manually specialized into like Bows and Staves and Guns and all that weird poo poo even though I cleared the entire license board by the first time the Rains come to the Giza Plains.

I do like the option of pulling into overpowered or min-maxed setups, but barring weird circumstances like superbosses, it's not even an issue of having to police myself; I just naturally like having variation in my party even if it means a non-optimal setup.

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