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4th quarter, ~30 seconds left on the game clock, opponent just scored and is ahead, but within a single score. Why do so many guys run the kick out, and don't settle for the touch back, especially if they are not named Hester? Surely 3-4 seconds is more valuable in this situation than the small chance you pick up a couple of yards?
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Jan 23, 2013 19:10
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They all think they're going to do this basically. Actually it seems rare for the team that went ahead that late in the game to kick off normally, it seems like they squib kick more often than not.
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Jan 23, 2013 19:17
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OperaMouse posted:4th quarter, ~30 seconds left on the game clock, opponent just scored and is ahead, but within a single score. If they catch it and run it out without a designed play/4.2 speed it summons the spirit of Mike Westhoff who puts a surgically repaired boot up their rear end. This doesn't happen, and if it does the ST coach will lose his poo poo.
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Jan 23, 2013 21:52
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If a punt stays on the field, but is not touched by any player, how long can the ball sit there on the ground burning the clock before it is considered dead? What about a blocked FG (Leon Lett against the Dolphins)? If something like that happened at the beginning of a quarter, I assume the Cowboys can't just stand there staring at the ball for 15 minutes while the clock ticks down. Also, regarding Leon Lett's Thanksgiving blunder, what would have happened if one of the Dolphins had slide tackled the ball instead of Leon?
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Jan 26, 2013 09:20
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Any loose ball is dead if it comes to rest and the covering official sees that nobody is trying to recover it. See it stop, look left, look right, nobody gives a gently caress, ping it. Possession is awarded to the team that's "supposed" to have the ball, so after a scrimmage kick (that crosses the neutral zone) comes to rest, it's Team B's ball, 1st and 10, and there are of course special rules about where the ball goes after an unsuccessful field goal that's untouched by Team B. If a Dolphin had been the first player to touch the ball, that would have been illegal touching and unless something seriously weird happened after that, the Cowboys would as a worst-case scenario have been able to take the ball at that spot and knee the game out. There is literally less than no reason for a Team B player to go chasing a missed field goal that's bouncing around on the floor, which is why what he did was quite so highlight-reel hilarious even without it being Leon Lett.
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Jan 26, 2013 15:31
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That clears things up for me. Thanks much!
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Jan 26, 2013 18:02
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Trin Tragula posted:Any loose ball is dead if it comes to rest and the covering official sees that nobody is trying to recover it. See it stop, look left, look right, nobody gives a gently caress, ping it. Possession is awarded to the team that's "supposed" to have the ball, so after a scrimmage kick (that crosses the neutral zone) comes to rest, it's Team B's ball, 1st and 10, and there are of course special rules about where the ball goes after an unsuccessful field goal that's untouched by Team B. A very important addition is that for a kickoff the ball can be recovered by the kicking team without Team B touching it after it has traveled for 10 yards. Once in a while in a normal kick off situation (usually in college) there is great hilarity as Team B has trouble getting to the ball in their own end zone while Team A bears down on them.
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Jan 28, 2013 06:23
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Hi, I'm new and inconsiderate so I haven't read the entirety of this thread before asking my question and am just going to assume it has not already been asked exactly how I phrase it earlier. Is the defenseless receiver penalty only called when a defender makes a helmet to helmet hit on the player catching the ball or is it any overly aggressive contact? Also at what point does the receiver cease being defenseless?
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Jan 31, 2013 19:33
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You can't hit a defenseless receiver anywhere with the crown of your helmet. You can't hit a defenseless receiver in his head with any part of your body. A defenseless receiver stops being a defenseless receiver once they make a "football move". It's all in the rules, Rule 12, Section 2, Article 7. quote:A receiver attempting to catch a pass; or who has completed a catch and has not had time to protect himself or has not clearly become a runner. If the receiver/runner is capable of avoiding or warding off the impending contact of an opponent, he is no longer a defenseless player
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Jan 31, 2013 20:42
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Rooster Brooster posted:A defenseless receiver stops being a defenseless receiver once they make a "football move". Which could be anything if you are Gruden
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Jan 31, 2013 20:44
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The Puppy Bowl posted:Hi, I'm new and inconsiderate so I haven't read the entirety of this thread before asking my question and am just going to assume it has not already been asked exactly how I phrase it earlier. Is the defenseless receiver penalty only called when a defender makes a helmet to helmet hit on the player catching the ball or is it any overly aggressive contact? Also at what point does the receiver cease being defenseless? Here's the defenseless receiver rule: quote:It is a foul if a player initiates unnecessary contact against a player who is in a defenseless quote:(b) Prohibited contact against a player who is in a defenseless posture is: Part 1 describes what constitutes a player in a defenseless position (of which, the defenseless receiver is just one of the many). In short, a defenseless receiver is pretty much what it sounds like. If you are catching or have just caught a pass and cannot take a defensive posture before you are hit, you're defenseless, and the onus becomes on the defender to avoid going into you head-first or hitting you in the head or neck. On the other hand, if you've caught a pass, you're on balance, you take several steps forward, and then you take a big hit, you're not defenseless. You had completed the process of the catch and became a runner, and a runner assumes some level of responsibility for protecting himself from a hit. thefncrow fucked around with this message at 20:58 on Jan 31, 2013 |
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Jan 31, 2013 20:54
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The NCAA definition of a defenseless reciever is as good as any: "A receiver whose focus is on catching a pass." When he looks for the ball, he becomes defenseless; and this lasts either until he completes the process of the catch and becomes a runner, or until he recognises that he can no longer catch the ball and is thinking about doing something else. There are two similar-but-different fouls you can have that are specifically against a defenseless player. It is a foul to initiate contact to a defenseless player's head with any part of the defender's body. It is also a foul to initiate contact with your own head against any part of the defenseless player's body. Those fouls together have become known by officials as "targeting", because of the exact rules language. There is also a when-in-question principle that says that if you see contact and you think it might be targeting, you call it (which goes against the usual presumption that you only call what you know happened, not what you think happened). There is also another foul that might conceivably occur against a defenseless receiver, but which doesn't require the contact-to-head/contact-with-head component; "No player shall tackle or run into a receiver when a forward pass to him obviously is not catchable. This is a personal foul and not pass interference." We generally refer to that one as "disregarding the ball", because of some rules language that points at this rule from elsewhere in the book. I believe that there's no important differences for NFL rules, but I'm happy to be corrected.
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Jan 31, 2013 21:04
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Thank you, especially thefncrow. It still seems to me that they should strip down the definition of defenseless to when they're in the air or have just made contact with the ball so that a defender can still try to dislodge the ball by striking at the right moment.
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Jan 31, 2013 21:59
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The Puppy Bowl posted:It still seems to me that they should strip down the definition of defenseless to when they're in the air or have just made contact with the ball so that a defender can still try to dislodge the ball by striking at the right moment. You can still do that, you just cannot knowingly wail the guy when he has no realistic way to protect himself
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Jan 31, 2013 22:00
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Rooster Brooster posted:You can't hit a defenseless receiver anywhere with the crown of your helmet. You can't hit a defenseless receiver in his head with any part of your body. A defenseless receiver stops being a defenseless receiver once they make a "football move". I'm pretty sure that the phrase "football move" is not actually anywhere in the rule book anymore and hasn't been for several years. People made fun of it so much they took it out.
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Jan 31, 2013 22:36
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gohuskies posted:I'm pretty sure that the phrase "football move" is not actually anywhere in the rule book anymore and hasn't been for several years. People made fun of it so much they took it out. It's not, as per the actual wording posted, but it's still awesome and every newbie should know it. IIRC "move common to the game" was the actual wording that was previously in the rules that morphed into "football move" through the years, so it was never actually in there.
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Jan 31, 2013 22:46
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The Puppy Bowl posted:Thank you, especially thefncrow. It still seems to me that they should strip down the definition of defenseless to when they're in the air or have just made contact with the ball so that a defender can still try to dislodge the ball by striking at the right moment. Keep in mind, the rule isn't that you can't hit a defenseless receiver, it's that you have certain obligations when doing so. If a receiver is in the air in the process of making a catch (making him a defenseless receiver), it's perfectly legal to hit him in the torso with your shoulder to try to pop the ball loose. It's just that when a defensive player is hitting a defenseless receiver, the only allowable contact with the receiver's head and neck is when it's incidental, plus the defensive player is not allowed to lead with his head. In the process of a receiver catching the ball and legally completing the catch (like making sure both feet come down), he is paying attention to the ball coming into his hands or his feet hitting the ground, not at the defenders who are coming towards him. Once the catch has been completed and the receiver has the ability to react to the defensive players coming at him, the defenseless receiver restrictions are lifted as the receiver now has the responsibility for protecting himself as necessary.
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Jan 31, 2013 23:34
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Rooster Brooster posted:It's not, as per the actual wording posted, but it's still awesome and every newbie should know it. IIRC "move common to the game" was the actual wording that was previously in the rules that morphed into "football move" through the years, so it was never actually in there. I believe that it originally appeared in the NFL's philosophies document some years back out of Mike Pereira's great drive to get some more consistency into officiating; then Pereira started using it when he started becoming more visible to explain why things were happening; then it went in the rulebook as "a football move"; then it got taken out again; then it got properly redefined a year or two later and put back in with an important new hat as "an act common to the game". If I knew where it was I'd dig out my 2006 NFL book and check, but I've only got that one as a dead tree.
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Feb 1, 2013 00:15
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thefncrow posted:Keep in mind, the rule isn't that you can't hit a defenseless receiver, it's that you have certain obligations when doing so. If a receiver is in the air in the process of making a catch (making him a defenseless receiver), it's perfectly legal to hit him in the torso with your shoulder to try to pop the ball loose. It's just that when a defensive player is hitting a defenseless receiver, the only allowable contact with the receiver's head and neck is when it's incidental, plus the defensive player is not allowed to lead with his head. I guess the word incidental is where I take issue. Many times the play happens fast enough that the defender attacks a legal spot but the receiver moves in a way that creates what I call would incidental contact which is generally called a penalty on the field. I know at least the Patriots receivers are coached to get that head down to try and draw contact, at which point how do you blame the defender over the offensive player when the offensive player initiated the illegal contact by shifting their body.
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Feb 1, 2013 04:24
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The Puppy Bowl posted:I guess the word incidental is where I take issue. Many times the play happens fast enough that the defender attacks a legal spot but the receiver moves in a way that creates what I call would incidental contact which is generally called a penalty on the field. I know at least the Patriots receivers are coached to get that head down to try and draw contact, at which point how do you blame the defender over the offensive player when the offensive player initiated the illegal contact by shifting their body. Head and neck injury is purely and simply too serious an issue in all its forms (from dementia through CTE to paraplegia through broken necks) to have an exception like there is for blocks in the back, where it's not a foul if you commit to a block in the side or the front and then the opponent turns his back after you're committed. The equation is clear and easy to understand; if you commit to hitting a defenseless player, you're on the hook if you end up catching them in the head. What I find interesting (but not surprising) is how within the space of a few season, the defenders have really started adapting to this idea and are getting better almost week-to-week at aiming lower and not launching themselves off the ground to hit recievers (which greatly decreases the chance of drawing a foul because you've got so much more control over yourself all the way through the hit). When it first came in anyone would have thought it was beyond the wit of man to stop a receiver any other way than helmet-to-helmet decapitation, the way a lot of players and pundits were talking; and yet now, those hits are genuinely well on the way to disappearing out of the game like the clothesline.
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Feb 1, 2013 17:38
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You can't hit with your head or in the head, it's pretty basic
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Feb 1, 2013 19:21
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I'm trying to teach my girlfriends son the basics of football before he starts his first season of YAFL this coming summer. He is most interested in defense and being big for his age i'm assuming they will put him on the line. So here's what i got. A proper tackle is: watch the runners bellybutton where that goes the runner goes, always keep your head up, lead with your shoulder, make contact, wrap with your arms, lift and drive. Never listen to the count, only when the ball moves, you move. Always go until the whistle blows, a play isn't dead until the whistle ends it. When the ball is snapped, having a lower, steadier center of gravity gives you a better chance to move the guy in front of you back, giving you the advantage. On defense you ARE allowed to grab, push or pull with your hands, except towards the face-mask(which is under any circumstance). And wear a smoke colored visor for cool factor. Anyone else have any good advice they feel would be important to teach?
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Feb 3, 2013 18:30
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Chillback posted:Always go until the whistle blows, a play isn't dead until the whistle ends it. This is a good general principle as long as he doesn't start using it as an excuse to blow guys up when they've given up on a play. If in doubt play to the whistle, but he'll be able to play much smarter if he learns that this doesn't give him an automatic licence to (e.g.) be able to go and blindside someone who's standing around doing nothing five yards off a pile that the ball's obviously in. (Along those lines, add in "keep your head on a swivel during a return".)
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Feb 3, 2013 19:36
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Chillback posted:I'm trying to teach my girlfriends son the basics of football before he starts his first season of YAFL this coming summer. He is most interested in defense and being big for his age i'm assuming they will put him on the line. So here's what i got. A proper tackle is: watch the runners bellybutton where that goes the runner goes, always keep your head up, lead with your shoulder, make contact, wrap with your arms, lift and drive. Never listen to the count, only when the ball moves, you move. Always go until the whistle blows, a play isn't dead until the whistle ends it. When the ball is snapped, having a lower, steadier center of gravity gives you a better chance to move the guy in front of you back, giving you the advantage. On defense you ARE allowed to grab, push or pull with your hands, except towards the face-mask(which is under any circumstance). And wear a smoke colored visor for cool factor. Anyone else have any good advice they feel would be important to teach? They can sometimes call defensive holding on the line, but it's very rare. And I think I'd tell him to watch the center of the chest rather than the belly button but it's about the same
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Feb 4, 2013 06:40
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He may also end up on the offensive line, and I think teaching him how that works/the actual goals of creating a pocket etc. are important and hard to just pick up as an 8-12 year old or whatever. I know when I played youth football on either line I just tried to gently caress up the person in front of me and had no concept of what I was actually supposed to do within the play. I don't think most plays are really working with counters and pulling at that level, so it worked out okay, but it was also very confusing for me since I'd never watched a non-Super Bowl football game. Actually that goes for both sides of the ball, teaching him how to work with the rest of the team can make it a lot more fun, he can feel like he's doing his job regardless of the result of the play.
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Feb 4, 2013 08:57
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So what happens with all the 49ers SB champ merchandise? At the very least, there's all the stuff that was made for the team itself, though I have to think a bunch was made for the market, too. Does it get recycled, or do they donate it to those clothes drives that send bales of clothes to third world countries?
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Feb 5, 2013 03:01
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Detective Thompson posted:So what happens with all the 49ers SB champ merchandise? At the very least, there's all the stuff that was made for the team itself, though I have to think a bunch was made for the market, too. Does it get recycled, or do they donate it to those clothes drives that send bales of clothes to third world countries? The latter. Because of that, there's an ancient joke that some village in Africa thinks the Bills are the best team to ever set foot on an NFL field.
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Feb 5, 2013 03:03
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19 and 0 baby!
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Feb 5, 2013 03:30
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Uncle Jam posted:19 and 0 baby! I like to imagine one kid refused to wear one, because even in an isolated village deep in the impoverished tribal lands of Brazil, he stills knows "gently caress the Pats."
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Feb 5, 2013 14:32
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Along those lines, I was wondering about the shoes the players wear. It seems like Nike or whoever holds the contract makes several different styles of shoes, and them decorates them in specific team colors for the NFL players to wear. Do they just make a few hundred pairs of shoes for each team and call it a day, or do they mass market the exact same shoes that the NFL players are wearing?
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Feb 5, 2013 21:26
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Every once in a while, the loser shirts show up in the US. A few years ago, a Salvation Army in the Akron area had a bunch of Ohio State national champs shirts.
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Feb 6, 2013 07:29
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SkunkDuster posted:Along those lines, I was wondering about the shoes the players wear. It seems like Nike or whoever holds the contract makes several different styles of shoes, and them decorates them in specific team colors for the NFL players to wear. Do they just make a few hundred pairs of shoes for each team and call it a day, or do they mass market the exact same shoes that the NFL players are wearing? I know some players like to wear their own shoes, I think they can even go outside the sponsor - kickers can, at least.
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Feb 7, 2013 05:49
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What are the differences in requirements to be a good kick returner versus a punt returner? If there are none, why are there two positions for that in pro bowl?
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Feb 7, 2013 19:37
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Chillback posted:I'm trying to teach my girlfriends son the basics of football before he starts his first season of YAFL this coming summer. He is most interested in defense and being big for his age i'm assuming they will put him on the line. So here's what i got. A proper tackle is: watch the runners bellybutton where that goes the runner goes, always keep your head up, lead with your shoulder, make contact, wrap with your arms, lift and drive. Never listen to the count, only when the ball moves, you move. Always go until the whistle blows, a play isn't dead until the whistle ends it. When the ball is snapped, having a lower, steadier center of gravity gives you a better chance to move the guy in front of you back, giving you the advantage. On defense you ARE allowed to grab, push or pull with your hands, except towards the face-mask(which is under any circumstance). And wear a smoke colored visor for cool factor. Anyone else have any good advice they feel would be important to teach? I was D-line in high school and was always taught that if I got through the line, take away the RB's outside angle. Put the helmet on the outside when driving a shoulder tackle. There's always help in the middle, and even if I got juked out of my shoes, it's better to get juked while forcing the RB inside rather than letting him break free on the edge.
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Feb 7, 2013 23:22
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OperaMouse posted:What are the differences in requirements to be a good kick returner versus a punt returner? Kick returners usually field the ball without the coverage team directly in their face and have more room/time for blockers to set up lanes. You could theoretically put your fastest straight-line runner who doesn't have literal cinder blocks for hands back there and have that be your best option because he'll have a couple of seconds after fielding the kick to get a quick glimpse of the field before he meets contact. Punt returners have to be aware of where on the field the punt is going (mostly how close to the end zone), how close the coverage team will be upon catching it, and the best-looking lane that will open up in a couple of seconds after they field it and a teammate throws a block in that one perfect location, also deciding whether or not to return, fair catch, or let it bounce -- all during the 4-5 seconds the ball is in flight. They also need to have extremely sure hands because more often than not someone from the punting team will be closing in on them quickly, waiting to pounce on a muffed or mishandled catch.
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Feb 8, 2013 01:36
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What does a draft pick look like? Do you send the other team a card that says 1st round pick?
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Feb 17, 2013 08:32
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I like to pretend they'd be really fancy like an old timey stock certificate
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Feb 19, 2013 03:37
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Kiwi Bigtree posted:I like to imagine one kid refused to wear one, because even in an isolated village deep in the impoverished tribal lands of Brazil, he stills knows "gently caress the Pats." I wonder if they tell them. Is there a future Slumdog Millionaire style kid who has all the wrong Super Bowl winners memorized?
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Feb 19, 2013 15:20
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Comfortador posted:I wonder if they tell them. Is there a future Slumdog Millionaire style kid who has all the wrong Super Bowl winners memorized? I've theorized that they've put it together. Like let's say the Ravens go to the Super Bowl next year and lose. All the shirts would say BACK TO BACK CHAMPS. But no back to back champs shirts exist for, say, the Bills.
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Feb 20, 2013 02:28
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I'm having trouble finding good examples of rushers leading with the crown of their helmet. Does anyone have any good videos that explain or demonstrate this?
Iron Clad Lou fucked around with this message at 15:17 on Mar 23, 2013 |
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