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Liar Lyre posted:Hmm, that's true. What makes a promotion legitimate? Is it the talent? The size of the audience? Show quality? Pretty much "did anyone ever pay money to see them? If yes, then it's a promotion."
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Feb 10, 2013 03:37
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I think not being IWA-MS or associated otherwise with Ian Rotten is a big part of legitimacy. Is there a "major" promoter that is held in more disdain and hatred than good old Ian? Maybe Zandig?
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Feb 10, 2013 05:43
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Dixie Carter should be held in much lower esteem than Ian Rotten
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Feb 10, 2013 06:30
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Nut Bunnies posted:Dixie Carter should be held in much lower esteem than Ian Rotten Why is that? Ian Rotten has done so much scummier things then Dixie. Dixie is just an idiot.
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Feb 10, 2013 06:38
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Intrusive Thoughts posted:I had to look this up, found this page, and you are right: ICP have worked in all five major promotions in the modern era of wrestling which is a bizarre achievement for them to have above others. Who wouldn't want to book ICP? They're not in it for the money, and they show up in their own bus. They love pro wrestling more than any other celebrities.
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Feb 10, 2013 07:35
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Liar Lyre posted:Here's a good follow up question, who worked the most promotions? I bet it's Generico. Let's just agree it's Terry Funk and move on.
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Feb 10, 2013 07:58
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bobkatt013 posted:Why is that? Ian Rotten has done so much scummier things then Dixie. Dixie is just an idiot. Dixie has done pretty much everything Ian has done on a grander stage with the exception of the Mike Levy incident (which I still think was an idiotic work.) Checks bounced? Yep. False advertising? Yep. Having workers do insane unsafe poo poo? Yep. I could go on and on. Add in the racism and sexism of TNA and they are on the same level. Oh and the lying about having a wellness policy when they don't, letting Angle worked concussed, letting Anderson work concussed until he threw up in the ring, etc etc etc.
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Feb 10, 2013 08:40
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bobkatt013 posted:Why is that? Ian Rotten has done so much scummier things then Dixie. Dixie is just an idiot. Has Ian Rotten ever employed Vince Russo?
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Feb 10, 2013 08:43
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MassRayPer posted:Dixie has done pretty much everything Ian has done on a grander stage with the exception of the Mike Levy incident (which I still think was an idiotic work.) Don't forget the Victory Road 2011 fiasco with Jeff Hardy and Sting which is something TNA as a promotion had to look into a mirror over.
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Feb 10, 2013 08:52
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Intrusive Thoughts posted:Don't forget the Victory Road 2011 fiasco with Jeff Hardy and Sting which is something TNA as a promotion had to look into a mirror over. How do I always forget that? Especially since he showed up too hosed up to work for the December 2010 PPV (but sobered up throughout the day.)
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Feb 10, 2013 08:55
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When did Anderson puke? I haven't followed TNA for months.
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Feb 10, 2013 11:05
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If anything, I'd say Dixie's probably worse than Ian Rotten. As terrible as Rotten is, you can at least kind of understand (not excuse, just understand) some of it by the fact that he'll never be anything more than what he is: a small-time indy promoter with delusions of grandeur and a severe lack of conscience and good taste. And that on some level, he knows that's all he'll ever be. Whereas Dixie had the potential to make TNA something good both in terms of entertainment and in terms of helping improve conditions for workers, what with all the money she had at her disposal. And instead she did exactly the same slimy, scummy poo poo that small-time guys like Rotten did, with the added bonus of pissing so much money down the drain that even her father's company (that owns TNA) refused to just accept it as a tax write-off any longer. You know the saying "never attribute to malice what you can explain by stupidity"? Dixie's the rare case where you can attribute both to her at the same time. 
Sydney Bottocks fucked around with this message at 17:34 on Feb 10, 2013 |
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Feb 10, 2013 17:31
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Halloween Jack posted:I remember seeing a chain-wrestling clinic he put on in ECW. Don't even remember with who, just that it was mindblowing from a company from which I expected "Ee See Dubbayoo" chants and self-mutilation. So yes, tell me all about why Jerry Lynn is awesome. Let me see if I can remember all the ways. One, he loves gin. Two, he revealed Friday night he found out his biological parents were Canadian. Third, when faced with the choice to hang out with the wrestlers or hang out with the wrestling staff he picked the wrestling staff. Four, he's humble to the point where someone said, "He's like the only person who doesn't know he's Jerry Lynn." Five, he's completely open about his career (I won't tell his TNA story about X-Travaganza as much as I want to) to people he just met. That's about as much I can think of at the moment but I'll remember more I'm sure. OH YEAH and we sang "Fireworks" by Katy Perry with him because her, Taylor Swift and Lady Gaga are his guilty music pleasures. Not in karaoke though. Just spontaneously. He also said some interesting things about wrestling (which some might not think is awesome). He felt wrestlers should stay in their weight classes basically. Direct quote, didn't make sense to him that Rob Van Dam was X Champion while Austin Aries was wrestling the World Champion. We might book him after he retires to be a referee or something just so we can go drinking with him again. Also if people are curious, he now works a full time job at a warehouse, same that his wife works at (he said it was the first time in 20 years he had benefits which made me very depressed about the wrestling industry).
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Feb 10, 2013 19:52
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Why is it that when scummy promoter poo poo comes up, Dixie Carter always comes up, when McMahon has waaaay more blood on his hands?
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Feb 10, 2013 19:56
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LividLiquid posted:Why is it that when scummy promoter poo poo comes up, Dixie Carter always comes up, when McMahon has waaaay more blood on his hands? Because we all secretly admire Vince for his success, despite his many flaws
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Feb 10, 2013 19:58
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I thought it was because it's just assumed by this point that it's common knowledge that Vince is King Carny.
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Feb 10, 2013 20:00
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LividLiquid posted:Why is it that when scummy promoter poo poo comes up, Dixie Carter always comes up, when McMahon has waaaay more blood on his hands? Vincent K. McMahon posted:“Look, I’m in the garbage business. If you think I’m going to be hurt by the revelation that one of my wrestlers is really a violent individual, you’re mistaken.”
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Feb 10, 2013 20:03
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We all love Heyman, too, despite being scummy as all gently caress. The double-standard is pretty crazy.
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Feb 10, 2013 20:08
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LividLiquid posted:We all love Heyman, too, despite being scummy as all gently caress. The double-standard is pretty crazy. As a rule, if you're entertaining, your faults are ignored. Go re-read the Benoit murder-suicide thread and see how many people insist Chris couldn't have possibly done anything wrong even after the death timeline came out showing the order was Nancy, Daniel, Chris.
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Feb 10, 2013 20:27
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Paper Jam Dipper posted:(I won't tell his TNA story about X-Travaganza as much as I want to) you can't say something like this and then not do it.
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Feb 10, 2013 20:28
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Cardboard Box posted:you can't say something like this and then not do it. Don't know if Jerry would really want the story out. He was telling us over drinks so I'm not sure if that was a "just between us" thing or not. He is about to retire so who knows. It is a surprise that Bob Ryder still works for the company though.
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Feb 10, 2013 20:34
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Great White Hope posted:As a rule, if you're entertaining, your faults are ignored. Go re-read the Benoit murder-suicide thread and see how many people insist Chris couldn't have possibly done anything wrong even after the death timeline came out showing the order was Nancy, Daniel, Chris. Stop this man before he kills again! 
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Feb 10, 2013 20:39
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Great White Hope posted:As a rule, if you're entertaining, your faults are ignored. Go re-read the Benoit murder-suicide thread and see how many people insist Chris couldn't have possibly done anything wrong even after the death timeline came out showing the order was Nancy, Daniel, Chris. The Benoit Raw thread is particularly interesting, because the last half of the thread has most of the information starting to leak and people slowly realizing what happened, while a few people basically stuck their fingers in their ears and went LA-LA-LA-LA-LA and commented on the matches on Raw.
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Feb 10, 2013 20:39
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LividLiquid posted:We all love Heyman, too, despite being scummy as all gently caress. The double-standard is pretty crazy. I don't really see it as much of a double-standard. Liking the on-screen character and liking the off-TV person are two different things. Vince hasn't really been endearing to fans the way he used to since he dropped his "I'M VINCE MCMAHON GOD DAMMIT" schtick. Heyman did some lovely things off-camera but on-camera he's always been appreciated for either being straight up entertaining or for not being afraid to shoot on WCW or WWE for their bullshit on TV.
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Feb 10, 2013 20:40
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LividLiquid posted:Why is it that when scummy promoter poo poo comes up, Dixie Carter always comes up, when McMahon has waaaay more blood on his hands? The difference here, to me, is again that Vince (like Ian Rotten, Heyman, and countless others) is a product of the business. You can understand (not forgive, just understand) why he did the lovely carny things he did because that's how he learned the business, from guys who did those exact same things. Whereas Dixie could have potentially been more than just an egotistical money mark, and had the potential to at least try to make things better for her workers with better contracts, medical, etc. Instead she went right down the same carny road as everyone else, and (depending on what stories you believe) often tried to outdo some of the scummier carnies out there. Plus, Vince has at least made some changes to the way WWE does business: Wellness Program (that doesn't exist purely in the realms of fantasy; whether it's effective is another story, though), putting various ex-WWE workers through rehab stints, taking care of guys with stuff like paying for Paul Bearer's gastric bypass surgery, etc. Now granted, none of those things were done out of a sense of altruism (Vince is on the record as saying that paying for the rehab stints is nothing but pure public relations, as far as he's concerned), and indeed Vince had to be dragged kicking and screaming into implementing them. And they don't excuse all of the nastier things he's done ever since taking things over from his dad, of course. But they're still a lot more than Dixie's apparently done or is willing to do.
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Feb 10, 2013 20:42
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I think a difference between Vince and everybody else is that Vince's name is synonymous with big-league wrestling, and it's impossible to say what the business would be like without him. No point complaining about the air when there's nothing else to breathe.
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Feb 10, 2013 20:52
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By all accounts, Dixie shields herself from that part of the business and lets others handle it. Daphne's injuries, for instance, were more about Terry Taylor and Vince Russo than anybody else. Everybody on the planet who's ever worked for her just talks about how nice Dixie is, and the big criticism of her is that she's "too nice" sometimes to do things that need doing. TNA has done some scummy poo poo, and the fish definitely stinks from the head, but I'd say in almost every case, her crime is negligence by way of sticking her fingers in her ears and being all, "I don't want to hear about it! Do whatever you have to!"
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Feb 10, 2013 20:58
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The difference is Vince and Paul were carny malicious individuals doing reprehensible acts for their own personal gain. Dixie doesn't actually have any ill intent, she's just dumb.
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Feb 10, 2013 21:06
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That's my opinion of the situation as well, but people still bring up Dixie first when the scummiest promoter or company conversations starts. Nobody ever died in a TNA ring from negligence. I don't know why it's even a contest.
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Feb 10, 2013 21:12
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LividLiquid posted:Nobody ever died in a TNA ring from negligence. Well... http://wrestlingtruth.com/news/tna-ring-crew-member-dies-after-ppv-due-to-scaffolding-collapse/
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Feb 10, 2013 21:17
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LividLiquid posted:That's my opinion of the situation as well, but people still bring up Dixie first when the scummiest promoter or company conversations starts. Nobody ever died in a TNA ring from negligence. I don't know why it's even a contest. One died of complications from a TNA match. Is Vince now scummiest because of an accident? Vince did a ton of scummy things. However, WWE is a company that has been getting progressively cleaner. They've established fairly decent drug testing. They've cut out blood, they've cut out chairshots to the head, they pay for former talent to go to rehab, etc. Ever since Benoit, they've at least tried to be good. Since then TNA has said: gently caress women, gently caress minorities, gently caress everyone, let's be huge pieces of poo poo. Putting other people in positions to implement your policies doesn't make your hands clean, it makes you Richard Nixon. When you are in charge, you are in charge.
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Feb 10, 2013 21:41
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MassRayPer posted:Since then TNA has said: gently caress women, gently caress minorities, gently caress everyone WWE never stopped saying this. Honestly, WWE hasn't stopped saying this because that's what the wrestling business has said for decades. WWE and TNA are just products of an ugly industry that is behind the times and has always been behind the times.
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Feb 10, 2013 21:46
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MassRayPer posted:One died of complications from a TNA match. Is Vince now scummiest because of an accident? No, they have tried to get good PR by being good. Vince even said he does this strictly for PR and doesn't really care to clean up anything
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Feb 10, 2013 22:01
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budreck posted:No, they have tried to get good PR by being good. Vince even said he does this strictly for PR and doesn't really care to clean up anything To be fair, the intention behind the Wellness Policy etc doesn't really matter if it does good regardless of the loving maniac in charge of the company.
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Feb 10, 2013 22:02
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Technically his death was from a blood clot caused by surgery, but Chris Candido's last match was in TNA.
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Feb 10, 2013 22:51
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bartok posted:Technically his death was from a blood clot caused by surgery, but Chris Candido's last match was in TNA. So was Crash Holly's but stuff like that isn't the fault of WWE or TNA. Same goes to Benoit's death. It would be like blaming NOAH for Misawa's death.
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Feb 10, 2013 22:55
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Paper Jam Dipper posted:So was Crash Holly's but stuff like that isn't the fault of WWE or TNA. Same goes to Benoit's death. It would be like blaming NOAH for Misawa's death. If you don't blame WWE on Benoit and NOAH on Misawa to a great extent I really don't know what to say. eta: I mean, Misawa and NOAH's a little murkier because they had the records sealed fast and to some extent Misawa was NOAH, but I think it's pretty safe to say that there was no way Misawa should have been in the ring taking headdrops in his condition. Benoit, I think, goes without saying. oldfan fucked around with this message at 23:26 on Feb 10, 2013 |
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Feb 10, 2013 22:57
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budreck posted:No, they have tried to get good PR by being good. Vince even said he does this strictly for PR and doesn't really care to clean up anything Did I say what their intentions are? I have no doubts WWE's intentions aren't altruistic, however, they have actually changed. They have actually cleaned up. I have also never seen the kind of racist policies that TNA levied against Truth and Konnan in WWE. Both companies have had racist storylines, but the kind of policies TNA has engaged in in the past are on another level of racism than WWE.
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Feb 10, 2013 23:32
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While I do think Vince is probably doing a lot of good things for positive PR, it could be worse and he could have demanded that his company be respresented at an inquiry post Benoit about drug and safety conditions just for the attention so he could announce that his company had no wellness policy in a desperate attempt to be noticed.
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Feb 10, 2013 23:38
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Nonono, you see Dixie Carter wanted to be a part of it so she and her company could seem ~Major League~ then she flat out lied to Congress, called her audience "guys like the 40 year old virgin" and said such gems as "Uhhh we just now are making money to start spending on stuff".
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Feb 10, 2013 23:43
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