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Good Will Hrunting posted:I was supposed to be venturing into NYC last week for a second round interview at a place that I think is a very good fit for me but the storm caused them to cancel last minute and I haven't heard anything yet. This apprehension sucks. They said they'd contact me when they figured things out as far as rescheduling, but is there any reason to follow up? If so, when? If it's been a week I'd say it's reasonable to send them an email saying something to the effect of "it's unfortunate our meeting last week was cancelled due to the storm, I'm excited to discuss the developer position with you, are you available to reschedule sometime early next week?" e: even better to specify a couple days morning/afternoon so the onus is on them to only say yes/no without having to do much thinking and you're not left sitting by the phone Pweller fucked around with this message at 20:23 on Feb 12, 2013 |
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Feb 12, 2013 20:20
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Ithaqua posted:Lose the objective. Put skills at the top so someone can see at a glance what you know. My School's career services person posted:Your objective and education needs to be first. Employers want to know immediately if you have the qualifications needed for the job(s) they are posting.  The person who recommended that said specifically that businesses have told her that's what they want - and it's "standard" for "career wings" (UNF's job finding thingy) I think I'll do both and see which one gets more bites.
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Feb 12, 2013 20:51
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2banks1swap.avi posted:
Here's how I sort:
All I know is I have my skills up-front, no objective, then work experience and education, and I've been continually employed for the past 8 years and never had trouble landing interviews. 
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Feb 12, 2013 21:01
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2banks1swap.avi posted:
School career services offices are often vastly out of touch with reality 
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Feb 12, 2013 21:22
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I think schools tell people to do this because new graduates might not have much to fill a page with. It may also help in non-tech fields where your degree and work experience don't qualify you quite so clearly for whatever position you are aiming at. Once you've had even one tech job out of college, the objective statement is useless at best. If you don't have work experience from internships, or if you only had one, you can pad out the page with a "Projects" section where you talk about a few major projects that you worked on while you were in school. You can format this exactly the same way you would you work experience section, but put entries in like your senior project, or the final project of some notoriously painful course. The main point for this is that it gives interviewers areas to dig where you can intelligently discuss things you have meaningful experience with.
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Feb 12, 2013 21:58
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Okay - I spent about a week reading through this entire thread. I have a text file open with several pages' worth of useful links and information that I plan on reviewing many times over. This thread is an amazing resource. Thanks to everyone who's contributed to it. I graduated from college a couple years ago with a bachelor's in Philosophy and now I work in purchasing for the state government. It's... ehh, it's okay here, but it pays peanuts and I feel terribly unsatisfied. It's essentially a dead end job, too, unless I take over a year of certification courses and become a ~Procurement Manager~ for a paltry bump in my pay. The thought of doing that makes my lip curl. So that's out. I'd been thinking about what I really wanted to do careerwise, and I realized that more than anything I'd rather be making something. Not even just creating something from scratch, being able to meaningfully unfuck something would be great. I've always really enjoyed figuring out a way to solve a problem and making it useful, or taking a huge messy pile and cleaning it the gently caress up. Programming/software development seemed like a good fit for me. I took a bunch of programming classes in high school. Visual Basic through C++ and Java. Of course, those classes were about as 101 as it's possible to get. So I'm essentially new to all this beyond knowing that I enjoy coding. Well, not all that brand-new: I can at least do FizzBuzz. I didn't go into computer science because of having to drop a programming class in my final HS semester, then took a year off between HS and college. I guess by the time I got to college I had forgotten about it. I'm not sure why I didn't consider CS. It never occurred to me, and I'm a little disappointed that it never did. I'd like to rectify that, though. So I've a few questions about getting started:
I have a bunch of resources saved/bookmarked for getting started. Coursera, Stanford's video tutorials, Udacity, Codecademy, etc. Just need a bit of advice and guidance here to set me on the right path.
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Feb 12, 2013 22:43
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Coursera is great so far: I'm using the Algos I course as review now and it has been really helpful. Additionally I've never seen some of the stuff covered in the second part of it, so I'm eager to do that. You're only a week behind Part I, so you can probably catch up. The programming assignments and job interview questions have definitely been a huge help.
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Feb 12, 2013 23:15
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Ithaqua posted:[*] Look at education, I only care if it's a top-tier school, a disreputable school (DeVry!), or they have advanced degrees. My decision is more along the lines of "I might as well use the tuition reimbursement and it would be easier now on the tail end of my bachelors and while at my current job. Plus I like money." vs "I love school and am mega passionate about the subject".
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Feb 12, 2013 23:26
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Uziel posted:How do you specifically view advanced degrees during the hiring/interview process? I'm mulling over applying for a masters program since it would still be covered under tuition reimbursement but I'm not sure how significantly it would impact my chances especially given that it would tie me to my current company for another year after completing it due to tuition reimbursement rules. Generally negatively. Anecdotally, the worst developers I've worked with have had the most education. Of course, if I'm hiring for machine learning and someone who did his Ph.D on the subject applies, that's a different story. Also, people with advanced degrees tend to want more money for doing the same work as someone with a BS or no degree at all.
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Feb 12, 2013 23:35
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Ithaqua posted:Generally negatively. Anecdotally, the worst developers I've worked with have had the most education. Of course, if I'm hiring for machine learning and someone who did his Ph.D on the subject applies, that's a different story.
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Feb 12, 2013 23:46
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Uziel posted:My decision is more along the lines of "I might as well use the tuition reimbursement and it would be easier now on the tail end of my bachelors and while at my current job. Plus I like money." vs "I love school and am mega passionate about the subject". If you don't do it now, it gets exponentially harder. I've taken a few courses and applied to a couple graduate programs. I cannot stress the sheer difficulty of fitting a graduate degree around a full time job. Much less around a full time job, a spouse, and children. Right now the thought of giving up my job and going back to school full time is just short of impossible. If you have the option, can afford it, and aren't yet sick of coursework (my reasoning at the time) I'd go for it. Ithaqua posted:Also, people with advanced degrees tend to want more money for doing the same work as someone with a BS or no degree at all.
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Feb 12, 2013 23:56
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JawnV6 posted:If you don't do it now, it gets exponentially harder. I've taken a few courses and applied to a couple graduate programs. I cannot stress the sheer difficulty of fitting a graduate degree around a full time job. Much less around a full time job, a spouse, and children.
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Feb 13, 2013 00:04
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Uziel posted:Hm, I feared that was the case. I'm struggling with the decision because many of the local jobs I've been looking at are with government contractors and regardless of experience they have application filters like GPA > 3.6 and Graduate degrees to even get an interview despite it being a non-senior dev position. The US government has a hard on for hiring people with advanced degrees. In general, a CS master's should be an advantage anywhere near traditional/conservative in atmosphere.
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Feb 13, 2013 00:16
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Brannock posted:Okay - I spent about a week reading through this entire thread. I have a text file open with several pages' worth of useful links and information that I plan on reviewing many times over. This thread is an amazing resource. Thanks to everyone who's contributed to it. I was a philosophy B.A. and have a MS in computer science and work as a c++ developer on radiology software. When I graduated, I ended up working in my dad's law firm for six months as a paralegal and hating it. I tried to go directly from 'paralegal with philosophy ba' to software developer and while I was able to make it to phone interview stage sometimes, I never made it to an in-person interview. In desperation, I ended up applying to a contract QA position on craigslist. This led to a full-time job in QA for a fortune 50 company, and I used tuition reimbursement from that job to pay for the master's. The biggest jump in employability came from writing 'M.S. Computer Science, expected 2013' on my linked in. This totally changed the ballpark on my linkedin - Apple, Microsoft and Google started sending me messages asking whether or not I wanted a job at Apple, Microsoft, or Google, not the other way around. Anyone with a MS in computer science who's actually applying to places for jobs probably has something horribly wrong with them. I learned the most actually working in a company doing QA and watching the SDLC from that angle. Even though I wasn't doing application development by day, just watching how everything works, how it gets tested, how people come up with requirements, etc is way more educational than anything you'll learn in school, and picking dev's brains for how stuff worked and reading the source code of the stuff I was supposed to test was incredibly educational. The master's degree taught me a lot of stuff that was less practical day-to-day. I will say that I got out of my c++ comfort zone and started doing a lot of stuff with C# and javascript and web development for my software engineering class and that was incredibly useful. My compilers class, my operating systems class, my theory of computation class, my cryptography class etc. have all been mostly useless except for sounding smart in interviews and the occasional flash of insight when I'm looking at someone else's code. I did pick up a certificate in database design (I could fit that into the electives allowed for my main master's degree) and learned a lot about data warehousing and MS SQL and all that jazz and started playing with all sorts of NoSQL stuff, and that knowledge has been very useful when talking with DBAs and bullshitting with upper management. The flip side of the coin is that the MS CS isn't worth the paper it's printed on for someone with no experience, and you're not going to learn enough to be a commercial developer just from those classes. I honestly don't think you should just get a master's degree unless you have a job doing something software related already - you can probably get a job as a QA or BA with just a philosophy degree fairly easy and get exposure to the business and decide if that's what you want to do.
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Feb 13, 2013 01:47
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Do any of you reveal past salary information to potential employers? I've been following the advice in this article about never giving a number first and it's worked out great - I've gotten two offers out of two interviews so far at 40%+ what I make now. I went through a several hour technical interview yesterday at a place I think I might actually like to work. They got back to me today saying they'd like to recommend hiring me to their hiring panel, but they would need to know my current salary and desired compensation to proceed. I got them to name a number first at the end of the interview. However I don't see how revealing my current salary can do anything but hurt me (e.g. "hmm 40k to 80k is too much of a bump, we could get away with offering 68k and he'll probably take it"). I'm not sure if revealing it will hurt my chances more than NOT revealing it and pissing them off. I actually broke off setting up a phone interview through a pushy recruiter at what sounded like another great place because I didn't want to give any numbers first, including my current compensation. It felt good to say no to that guy though. I hate this poo poo. Cryolite fucked around with this message at 00:35 on Feb 20, 2013 |
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Feb 13, 2013 02:54
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Telling them your current salary will not help you. Tell them that it's confidential between you and your current employer. Give them a desired salary near the top end of the range they offered or just above it, and indicate that benefits play a role as well (don't get screwed over on a bad health plan or bad/no 401k match). They want to hire you at this point and your future boss will be pissed as hell if HR causes you to steal the worm off the hook, so they aren't going to risk losing a good match over paperwork - don't lose your nerve now!
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Feb 13, 2013 03:05
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"Confidential," drat, that's a good one. I wish I had been using that from the start. I've been saying stuff like I'm "not comfortable revealing it" and then rambling on about making sure it's a good fit first. I guess I'll dodge the current salary question but say I was originally looking for their range +5% anyway. Cryolite fucked around with this message at 00:35 on Feb 20, 2013 |
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Feb 13, 2013 04:41
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Brannock posted:I'm also concerned that not going through a formal CS curriculum will mean I'm missing out on a lot of theory and fundamentals and will end up knowing how to code but not understanding the underlying structures and end up stuck later on. Is this a valid concern? This is the biggest concern from my perspective. Self education can surely lead to you knowing how to code, but I think there's a lot to be said for being forced to work with concepts you don't understand and are uncomfortable with and hate so that you actually end up getting a well rounded exposure to the underpinnings of development (if that's your endgoal). That and you're presumably being taught by someone who knows what's what and won't have you learning bad things, and gives you other perspectives.
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Feb 13, 2013 05:17
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 : So, what is your current compensation rate? : I'm looking for total compensation around $160k, or roughly $90k in salary, but dependent on benefits. : But what is your current compensation rate? : Is your target roughly the going market rate for my skills and expertise? : Yes, but we'd like to know what you currently make. : Great, I'm glad we're on the same page. What other questions do you have for me?
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Feb 13, 2013 05:21
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hieronymus posted:The biggest jump in employability came from writing 'M.S. Computer Science, expected 2013' on my linked in. This totally changed the ballpark on my linkedin - Apple, Microsoft and Google started sending me messages asking whether or not I wanted a job at Apple, Microsoft, or Google, not the other way around. Heh heh, I can see this. I also have a reimbursement program at my workplace that seems stupid not to be taking advantage of. Though I have a family and thus no free time, and am not interested in moving to the coast so employability probably wouldn't be a significant factor in the decision (probably end up being mostly a straight up ego trip tbh) I do really like school however, and would REALLY like to go into a coursework-based grad program in a totally unrelated field in the evenings, but I think it would skew the crap out of my CV and scare away opportunities... nevermind being difficult to justify for reimbursement. Feels like I'm limited to either one day going for an MBA (can't see myself using, but things change) or gradlevel specialization in HCI (not under the impression that particular field would help with any salary bumps, might go the other way even, but it would be cool). Or forget grad school and keep on keepin on. Pweller fucked around with this message at 05:50 on Feb 13, 2013 |
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Feb 13, 2013 05:39
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baquerd posted:
What a fantastically passive aggressive conversation. Do you really think of that as a model set of responses, as you seem to be implying?
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Feb 13, 2013 05:44
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Steve French posted:What a fantastically passive aggressive conversation. Do you really think of that as a model set of responses, as you seem to be implying? It's important to realize that HR and a large portion of management are living in a different world than most engineer types. You need to dodge like a politician and keep your eye on the prize. They don't have the skills to evaluate you, gently caress them. If you get into a serious technical interview and they ask what you're currently making, gently caress them. If you want to get ahead, stop thinking about people as people and start thinking of them as representatives of a capitalist enterprise. Edit: The end game is, "Why do you care what I currently make?". This isn't very artful to say though. baquerd fucked around with this message at 06:04 on Feb 13, 2013 |
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Feb 13, 2013 05:56
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Cryolite posted:I've been following the advice in this article 
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Feb 13, 2013 06:24
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So I got an e-mail from a different recruiter at Apple but it seems more like that this internship wants me to screen apps rather than write code. The first recruiter that contacted me was only looking for a FT but, after he called me, he said he'd pass my details on to some people. What should I do? Would it be inappropriate to ask this latest recruiter if there were any other opportunities?
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Feb 13, 2013 06:38
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baquerd posted:It's important to realize that HR and a large portion of management are living in a different world than most engineer types. You need to dodge like a politician and keep your eye on the prize. They don't have the skills to evaluate you, gently caress them. If you get into a serious technical interview and they ask what you're currently making, gently caress them. If you want to get ahead, stop thinking about people as people and start thinking of them as representatives of a capitalist enterprise. First of all, not all interviews and negotiations are going to be with HR and management types who are oblivious or unable to evaluate you. Second of all, if they were, yeah, sure, gently caress them. That doesn't mean that blatantly dodging their questions is the most advantageous way to respond as a candidate. Someone previously said to just say it is confidential; I think that's a far better answer than a smug non-reply. Being direct and honest (but not forthcoming with compromising information) and just saying something like "I'd rather not say, that's confidential information between me and my employer" gets the same point across while not acting like a dick (even if acting like a dick may be justified). And in the end game, it's obviously abundantly clear why they care what you currently make; the trick is to not tell them in a tactful manner. Responding to their question with another question like you've suggested is, at least from my perspective, not tactful. Have you ever been in the position of the person doing the hiring? If so, can you honestly say that you'd respond well to someone answering one of your questions like that?
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Feb 13, 2013 06:40
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Steve French posted:First of all, not all interviews and negotiations are going to be with HR and management types who are oblivious or unable to evaluate you. Second of all, if they were, yeah, sure, gently caress them. That doesn't mean that blatantly dodging their questions is the most advantageous way to respond as a candidate. Someone previously said to just say it is confidential; I think that's a far better answer than a smug non-reply. Being direct and honest (but not forthcoming with compromising information) and just saying something like "I'd rather not say, that's confidential information between me and my employer" gets the same point across while not acting like a dick (even if acting like a dick may be justified). I hear what you're saying, and it's not bad to say it's confidential. There's a lot open to interpretation and the personality of your interviewer here. Both strategies are cop outs, it's up to the implementer to determine what they want to use. I think that playing the "confidential" card attempts to absolve you of the responsibility of negotiation based on your current compensation. The point of playing it "passive aggressive" is all on the latter term - you're taking the offensive and showing your power. I agree that it's abundantly clear why they care what you currently make, but if they admit it they are in a disadvantageous situation. They are left with the options of showing their cards or capitulating to your viewpoint. I have been on the hiring end, and I don't ask questions that are ultimately irrelevant to the job posting. If a person can show they are skilled and a good fit, I would need a personal incentive to deny them market rates (as is the case for many hiring personnel) in order to try to play this game. I haven't been given those incentives, so the question is not one I ask.
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Feb 13, 2013 06:57
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baquerd posted:I hear what you're saying, and it's not bad to say it's confidential. There's a lot open to interpretation and the personality of your interviewer here. Both strategies are cop outs, it's up to the implementer to determine what they want to use. Dodging the question seems fine, but I don't think it's necessary most of the time. In cases where "I'd prefer not to say" doesn't get them to drop it and move on, I've gotten good results saying something along the lines of "It's important to me to get an idea of what value you put on this position independent of what I've earned in the past, so I'd prefer to keep that number private."
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Feb 13, 2013 10:11
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hieronymus posted:... I actually meant a bachelor's in CS, not a master's.  I don't think I'd be admitted to a grad program, anyway - my GPA is slightly under the minimum and I don't have any recent experience or knowledge in programming or computer science. From what you said, though, it sounds like I should be learning on my own for a while then decide if I need the education to learn better or to help get a foot into the door. For a couple of reasons, analyst positions aren't all that accessible for me right now so I'll need to figure out another path to arrive at my goal. Might be time to register and catch up on several courses on Coursera like Good Will Hrunting suggested. Pweller posted:This is the biggest concern from my perspective. Self education can surely lead to you knowing how to code, but I think there's a lot to be said for being forced to work with concepts you don't understand and are uncomfortable with and hate so that you actually end up getting a well rounded exposure to the underpinnings of development (if that's your endgoal). That and you're presumably being taught by someone who knows what's what and won't have you learning bad things, and gives you other perspectives. Yeah, I agree completely with you.
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Feb 13, 2013 15:26
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Brannock posted:I actually meant a bachelor's in CS, not a master's. Well there are multiple kinds of master's degrees - a terminal master's program requirements are basically going to be: a) Dude, you graduated from college, right? b) You totally can pay us money, right? A research-based master's degree will have stiffer requirements, but most of the people who are going on about their undergrad research publications and all that jazz are just trying to get funded phD's.
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Feb 13, 2013 15:52
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On any day of this week this thread will relieve all my worries or make me feel like a hopeless loving idiot. I graduated 2011 in a BA in Psychology, and prior to the last year I thought I was going to go to a grad program for Psych, but after doing undergrad research I had lost any passion in the subject and didn't want to continue. I talked to an adviser about returning and using my electives to just cap off a BA in CompSci and they suggested that I could get into the CompSci grad program and it would take just the same amount of time and not that much extra cost and I figured that'd be more worth it. I'll be starting the grad program proper next semester after I finish the last 2 required classes. I've really enjoyed learning a lot of this stuff, and my Architechture/Operating Systems professor is convinced I'm hot poo poo for this field and given me a big endorsement for grad school. I've been able to pay for the prereq classes no problem with my part time job, and I'm not that worried about floating the grad school check, I just feel like a tremendous idiot and would hope somebody in here could tell me I didn't gently caress everything up entirely, even if I'm still sure about going about this program. I'm going to a campus career fair on Friday with a sparse resume and head full of hopes to get some attention, but is there anything else I can do besides do more studying on my own and working on my own projects?
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Feb 13, 2013 18:09
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Why do you feel like a tremendous idiot? I didn't see any mention in your post of some awful mistake (unless you count getting the degree in Philosophy I guess ).
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Feb 13, 2013 19:46
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Cicero posted:Why do you feel like a tremendous idiot? I didn't see any mention in your post of some awful mistake (unless you count getting the degree in Philosophy I guess Psychology, but generally just about as useless. It's just that Master's programs are brought up in very negative light in this thread and that you shouldn't seek that level unless you're getting reimbursed for it, and that's basically the goal I've set myself out to go for in hopes of being actually employable at some point in my life. But I guess I said it myself that I've still got the time to get internships and the resources to exploit for my gain during my classes. I'm just a worry wort, and I figured a post here was a better than an e/n thread
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Feb 13, 2013 20:03
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Akarshi posted:So I'm a sophomore studying CS. I have an in-person interview with Facebook tomorrow and I am terrified. The way I got said interview was that apparently my name got passed to the university recruiter somehow. There was no phone screen, no nothing, just an email telling me that I have an interview (well, two if I pass the first one, and after that I get flown to FB headquarters). I feel completely unprepared. I haven't even taken a data structures + algorithms class yet, and apparently if you fail one interview at Facebook, you can't apply there for another two years? I don't even know what I'm asking, I'm posting here and basically panicking on the internet, but yeah if anyone has any advice that'd be awesome. Thanks so much. So uh how did this go? I'm generally curious because I would love to apply to facebook for an internship or whatever and I'm in data structures now.
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Feb 13, 2013 20:05
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Not Dave posted:Psychology, but generally just about as useless. It's just that Master's programs are brought up in very negative light in this thread and that you shouldn't seek that level unless you're getting reimbursed for it, and that's basically the goal I've set myself out to go for in hopes of being actually employable at some point in my life. But I guess I said it myself that I've still got the time to get internships and the resources to exploit for my gain during my classes. I'm just a worry wort, and I figured a post here was a better than an e/n thread A CS Masters immediately following CS undergrad is what throws up flags, since a lot of those folks have difficulty adjusting to practical development work. If you've got the BA already, it makes sense to get your Masters in CS rather than an undergrad if it will work out.
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Feb 13, 2013 20:09
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Akarshi posted:apparently if you fail one interview at Facebook, you can't apply there for another two years? I work at Facebook, this is 100% definitely not true. My coworker failed his first interview straight out of school, then reapplied and made it a year later.
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Feb 13, 2013 20:10
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pr0zac posted:I work at Facebook, this is 100% definitely not true. My coworker failed his first interview straight out of school, then reapplied and made it a year later. I've also heard it a few times (not specific to facebook) but it's nice to know that it isn't necessarily true.
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Feb 13, 2013 20:23
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Not Dave posted:Psychology, but generally just about as useless. It's just that Master's programs are brought up in very negative light in this thread and that you shouldn't seek that level unless you're getting reimbursed for it, and that's basically the goal I've set myself out to go for in hopes of being actually employable at some point in my life. But I guess I said it myself that I've still got the time to get internships and the resources to exploit for my gain during my classes. I'm just a worry wort, and I figured a post here was a better than an e/n thread
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Feb 13, 2013 21:12
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Pweller posted:A CS Masters immediately following CS undergrad is what throws up flags, since a lot of those folks have difficulty adjusting to practical development work. I think this is a pretty poor generalization; a masters degree is not like a PhD; I have a lot of trouble believing that the average fresh graduate with a bachelors and masters in CS is less proficient at practical development work than the average fresh graduate with only a bachelors. If your point is that you'd rather hire someone with a bachelors and 1 or 2 years of experience over someone who spent that time getting their masters degree, that's a different matter, and it's really more that you're looking for someone experienced rather than the masters being a red flag. Of course, to add on to all of that, many people graduate with lots of internship experience, and some masters degree programs are structured as work/study where you do your masters thesis in industry.
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Feb 13, 2013 21:19
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So what does a CS job with a masters command? Considering most starting CS jobs are what other jobs expect with a masters the number must be uh, impressive.
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Feb 13, 2013 21:20
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KidDynamite posted:So what does a CS job with a masters command? Considering most starting CS jobs are what other jobs expect with a masters the number must be uh, impressive. If the job doesn't explicitly call for a graduate degree, the exact same rate as a bachelors. It's just that some grad degree holders think they're entitled to more money.
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Feb 13, 2013 21:27
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