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KozmoNaut posted:You have to make absolutely drat sure they lock correctly, otherwise your wheels will fall off. Late last year, Porsche quietly changed the hub parts for center lock cars (GT2,GT3,GTS) to a much heavier, thicker part. Nothing to see here.  All the people who I know who track their 997.2 GT3s had already put Cup car hubs on. As far as the motor goes, I haven't heard any horror stories about 9A1 so, hopefully, 9A2 will be just as good if not better. I'm more worried about what serious track use will do to the PDK transmissions.
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Feb 19, 2013 21:39
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Spatule posted:It's significantly longer than the one it replaces, as usual... Some of use live in cities where a few cm can make the difference between parking close to home or a mile away. As per this same trend, you can expect the Fabia to grow into Octavia's previous size with the next refresh. The Škodas are of course all solid cars nowadays, but I just can never muster any sort of excitement or desire for them. It's like I'd need to go "I'd like a bit more than 4.5m of car, do you have anything?" to end up with one. Maybe if they came up with a RWD two-seater... 
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Feb 19, 2013 21:44
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Aurune posted:Late last year, Porsche quietly changed the hub parts for center lock cars (GT2,GT3,GTS) to a much heavier, thicker part. Nothing to see here. What would the transmission being PDK have to do with track use? Are they more prone to damage or something because I've literally never heard of PDKs being worse than others for tracking, or anything really
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Feb 19, 2013 21:45
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XCPuff posted:That had nothing to do with popularity I dont think you really thought that one thru or in fact read the sales numbers. The G8 was already on shakey ground before Pontiac vanished
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Feb 19, 2013 22:41
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Bob NewSCART posted:What would the transmission being PDK have to do with track use? Are they more prone to damage or something because I've literally never heard of PDKs being worse than others for tracking, or anything really Because the GT3 is sold largely as a track car (right?) and the kind of people dropping that coin on a track car are also the kind of people who have to have the fastest laptime, even if they aren't actually racing it. Thus, they'll buy the PDK because it's faster, and manual purists will cry into their Wheaties. Full disclosure: I love a good manual transmission but to believe they are anything other than a dying breed is lunacy. Most people are fine with traditional automatics, even with their laggy shifting and torque converters. Of those who aren't happy with that, the modern crop of dual-clutch transmissions satisfies them, and the cost on those is coming down to make them viable in a much larger portion of the market. Cat Terrist posted:I dont think you really thought that one thru or in fact read the sales numbers. The G8 was already on shakey ground before Pontiac vanished This is a chicken/egg scenario here. Did the G8 sell poorly because of any flaws it had (including price due to USD/AUD), or did it sell poorly because even at the beginning of its life most people wouldn't be caught dead in a Pontiac? People were running away from that brand in droves long before the bailout / brand reduction happened. When that did eventually come to pass, a lot of people got really skittish about buying any of the being-discontinued brands, despite GM claiming they would still support them at the remaining GM dealers.
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Feb 19, 2013 22:58
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Going by the hype I'm seeing for the Chevy SS, I imagine that it will sell decently and that there will be greater demand than supply. As IOC was saying, Pontiac was viewed as being lower than even Saturn, which in 2008 and 2009 Saturns were rebadged Opels (around here there are far more Saturns than Pontiacs, this may be another weird Detroit Metro thing though  ). After coming here from Australia and living in and around Detroit, seeing the car culture that permeates the area, the amount of people around here that own classic cars or want high-powered cars more than fuel-efficient cars, and the growing amount of BMW's, I can't imagine why the Commodore-based cars wouldn't do well with a Bowtie on it. Especially if it's cheaper than a BMW for similar quality and power but for cheaper. I would also be curious to see how well a Holden would sell under the Holden badge here, but this is lunacy that will never happen unless some idiot put me in charge of GM .
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Feb 19, 2013 23:09
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Bob NewSCART posted:What would the transmission being PDK have to do with track use? Are they more prone to damage or something because I've literally never heard of PDKs being worse than others for tracking, or anything really I've heard that the PDK on the Cayman R (and maybe other Caymans) can heat up and go into limp before a full 20-min session is over. So it might be perfectly fine in the long term, but that kind of self-preservation is annoying for your enjoyment.
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Feb 19, 2013 23:11
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mobby_6kl posted:As per this same trend, you can expect the Fabia to grow into Octavia's previous size with the next refresh. Skoda is the more sensible, conservative and dreary version of VW, which really says it all. They're just plaindull. It's also pretty much the same car as a Jetta, but for less money, so why would you even buy the VW? Every normal road car the VW Group makes is dull as hell. I'd rather have an Alfa or a Ford or a Peugeot or a Citroën or a Renault. Well, perhaps not a Renault.
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Feb 19, 2013 23:30
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IOwnCalculus posted:Of those who aren't happy with that, the modern crop of dual-clutch transmissions satisfies them, and the cost on those is coming down to make them viable in a much larger portion of the market. Not fast enough for my liking. I knew it'd never happen but I was really hoping the C7 would at least have a dsg as an option, if not entirely replace the auto. I hope that when they get around to the z06/zr1 of this generation they're able to do something like that.
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Feb 19, 2013 23:35
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IOwnCalculus posted:Because the GT3 is sold largely as a track car (right?) and the kind of people dropping that coin on a track car are also the kind of people who have to have the fastest laptime, even if they aren't actually racing it. Thus, they'll buy the PDK because it's faster, and manual purists will cry into their Wheaties. The turth however is that manuals are still actually quicker and better but not the traditional H pattern. I have no idea why real sequentials have never made it out to road cars because they are lighter, shift every bit as fast and are proven to work. Hell you then can just use paddles - paddle shift full manual. Why not? It's not the technical hassle of a DSG, they are quite a deal lighter. And on a track, I dont care if the DSG is a poofteenth faster. Gimme a cluth, I'll make the difference up and then some because that's what a clutch allows you to do. Manuals arent dying because the alternatives are better / faster (They aint). It's because we in AI are a dying breed. Even so called "car nuts" have no real idea how a car works and just do the latest tuner poo poo rather than actually getting under a car and figure out how a cheap mod can blow away 2K worth of tuner brand name crap. We have laws mandating bullshit like stability control that fight back agianst having fun in a car that thence gives us electronics over good engineering. Cars like the Toybaru are the exception, the rule is the Corolla or the latest lovely big turd AWD. A few say we never had it so good with the hp we have to choose from. gently caress that, what we dont have the choice is where it REALLY counts - cars that talk to your rear end and fingertips. Cars that make you WANT to drive because it's a serious experience of you and the road. Cars that throw you back into your seat get old. Cars that give you a boner when you feather them into a sweeper never do.
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Feb 19, 2013 23:38
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I'm fairly sure the majority of "car people" care first and foremost about how much horsepower they have. There's some overlap between FIVE HUNNERT HP and people actually concerned about handling and responsiveness but the first is the majority there, and I think they don't really give two shits whether it's a DSG or a real manual.
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Feb 19, 2013 23:45
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IOwnCalculus posted:Because the GT3 is sold largely as a track car (right?) and the kind of people dropping that coin on a track car are also the kind of people who have to have the fastest laptime, even if they aren't actually racing it. Thus, they'll buy the PDK because it's faster, and manual purists will cry into their Wheaties. There are two different (and extremely vocal) groups on what the GT3 should and should not be. The people defending the use of PDK in the 991 GT3 often use the argument that no professional race organizations use manual transmissions anymore. That's a bit of a false argument in my eyes as it's been that way long before the 996 GT3 appeared on US shores. The GT3 is a track car for the street, not the other way around. If you want the fastest lap times, buy a used Cup car or some other dedicated track car. Anything with lights, mirrors and a spot for a license plate will be compromised regardless. Manual transmissions are about enjoying the experience and GT3s are driven on public roads in addition to closed tracks. To me it would make sense that the standard GT3 would have the 7 speed manual as standard and the PDK as an optional extra while the RS was PDK only as it is more track-focused. That would quiet the crowd down a bit, at least. On the other hand, we don't want to impede progress and it looks like PDK-only is part of that. Strangely enough, It seems like the 991S optioned with the power kit (430hp), 7 speed manual, factory aero kit and 5-lug wheels is essentially the spiritual successor to the 997.1 GT3. Only it's $125k with all those options. davebo posted:Not fast enough for my liking. I knew it'd never happen but I was really hoping the C7 would at least have a dsg as an option, if not entirely replace the auto. I hope that when they get around to the z06/zr1 of this generation they're able to do something like that. With the pace of development the Z06 has seen in the last decade, I really doubt they'll be able to continue to put expensive cars to shame with a manual gearbox. Couldn't they just license an existing DCT from another transmission manufacturer?
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Feb 19, 2013 23:49
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Zoom Zoom, motherfuckers
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Cat Terrist posted:Manuals arent dying because the alternatives are better / faster (They aint). It's because we in AI are a dying breed. Even so called "car nuts" have no real idea how a car works and just do the latest tuner poo poo rather than actually getting under a car and figure out how a cheap mod can blow away 2K worth of tuner brand name crap. We have laws mandating bullshit like stability control that fight back agianst having fun in a car that thence gives us electronics over good engineering. Cars like the Toybaru are the exception, the rule is the Corolla or the latest lovely big turd AWD. Let me say to preface that I definitely agree with you in terms of needing good, fun cars to drive. But I don't think for a second that the presence of electronic aids and safety features and regulations are actually preventing us from having good, fun to drive cars. Before electronic aids, the vast majority of cars on the road were poo poo to drive. After electronic aids, the vast majority of cars on the road were poo poo to drive. I would much rather have my daily that my girlfriend drives on occasion have stability control than not. I think the ire is misguided at best.
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Feb 20, 2013 00:01
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Tusen Takk posted:Going by the hype I'm seeing for the Chevy SS You mean the hype you see in a car forum who are all nuts about RWD sedans and wagons? That hype? Or the hype from the buying public who does not exist?
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Feb 20, 2013 00:09
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Cat Terrist posted:The turth however is that manuals are still actually quicker and better but not the traditional H pattern. I have no idea why real sequentials have never made it out to road cars because they are lighter, shift every bit as fast and are proven to work. Hell you then can just use paddles - paddle shift full manual. Why not? It's not the technical hassle of a DSG, they are quite a deal lighter. And on a track, I dont care if the DSG is a poofteenth faster. Gimme a cluth, I'll make the difference up and then some because that's what a clutch allows you to do. I don't know how they feel to drive, but the concept looks interesting.
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Feb 20, 2013 00:10
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davebo posted:Not fast enough for my liking. I knew it'd never happen but I was really hoping the C7 would at least have a dsg as an option, if not entirely replace the auto. I hope that when they get around to the z06/zr1 of this generation they're able to do something like that. What's the highest torque application we've seen dual-clutch transmissions in, though? Is there a DSG out there that can handle Z06 levels of torque, let alone the 600+ ft-lbs in a ZR1? I haven't heard of any diesel trucks using dual-clutch transmissions yet, and it's really hard to hold gigantic torque with conventional manual transmissions, let alone newer tech.
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Feb 20, 2013 00:10
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Weinertron posted:What's the highest torque application we've seen dual-clutch transmissions in, though? Is there a DSG out there that can handle Z06 levels of torque, let alone the 600+ ft-lbs in a ZR1? I haven't heard of any diesel trucks using dual-clutch transmissions yet, and it's really hard to hold gigantic torque with conventional manual transmissions, let alone newer tech. The transmission in this car probably costs as much as a Corvette* though. E: *Or two 
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Feb 20, 2013 00:43
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Weinertron posted:What's the highest torque application we've seen dual-clutch transmissions in, though? Is there a DSG out there that can handle Z06 levels of torque, let alone the 600+ ft-lbs in a ZR1? I haven't heard of any diesel trucks using dual-clutch transmissions yet, and it's really hard to hold gigantic torque with conventional manual transmissions, let alone newer tech. Well the Veyron uses a DSG -- it just costs $120k for the transmission alone. e: beaten Regarding clutches - don't some formula cars use a hand-operated clutch? Like a second set of paddles below the shifter paddles? How does that work? In F1 they can use the robotic clutch except when launching? Hog Obituary fucked around with this message at 00:50 on Feb 20, 2013 |
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Feb 20, 2013 00:48
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TheFonz posted:You mean the hype you see in a car forum who are all nuts about RWD sedans and wagons? That hype? Mostly from Facebook actually . Most of my friends aren't car nuts and they're pretty jived about it
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Feb 20, 2013 00:49
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TheFonz posted:You mean the hype you see in a car forum who are all nuts about RWD sedans and wagons? That hype? Hey, now, there are people out there who bought the 6th gen Monte Carlo basically because that's the name they attached to NASCAR for a while. There were sufficient people who bought the old B-body Impala SS. I'm sure the SS will meet their fairly conservative sales goals. davebo posted:Not fast enough for my liking. I knew it'd never happen but I was really hoping the C7 would at least have a dsg as an option, if not entirely replace the auto. I hope that when they get around to the z06/zr1 of this generation they're able to do something like that. It's doubtful they'd be able to put a DSG in right now while maintaining anything close to current pricing. Most people who buy Corvettes buy automatics and don't care a whole lot about performance anyway. The DSG in something with big power like the Nissan GT-R runs for around $12-14k or more as a replacement part versus like $5000 for the conventional auto in the Chevy. This is a very crude and inaccurate way to guess at actual parts prices, but it's undeniable that a DSG that can handle a ton of torque is pretty darn rare and will probably cost more than a conventional automatic or manual. I doubt you could convince people to swallow something like a $5000 premium, or else the lower power/some sort of torque reduction programming on the ECU (to keep transmission costs down) just for an automated manual that the majority of buyers wouldn't even use and that even performance buyers would be split on. OXBALLS DOT COM fucked around with this message at 01:34 on Feb 20, 2013 |
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Feb 20, 2013 01:22
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:Let me say to preface that I definitely agree with you in terms of needing good, fun cars to drive. But I don't think for a second that the presence of electronic aids and safety features and regulations are actually preventing us from having good, fun to drive cars. Before electronic aids, the vast majority of cars on the road were poo poo to drive. After electronic aids, the vast majority of cars on the road were poo poo to drive. I would much rather have my daily that my girlfriend drives on occasion have stability control than not. I think the ire is misguided at best. Let me put it this way - Electronics masks the lovely engineering and is being used as a replacement to engineering as well. And it is making cars worse - Subaru are a very good example. The engineers have gotten lazy and allowed the electronics in and every single case that's happened the cars are worse. Cars that have been traditionally driver focused are going bye bye as they get blighted. I can certainly agree that at times electronics can help when done right. My Commodore has fairly basic TC and stability control, it's unobtrusive and works when it's really needed in a way that doesnt porduce unexpected results. Kinda surprised I would say that as up to now every single electronics blighted car can do some unexpected nasty kickback when the electronics cant really decide what needs to be done. From our (and I mean from a AI perspective, not a moron behind the wheel perspective) POV too, TC and stability gets in the way of exploiting a chassis, example the new Lancer where it's systems literally fight you if you want to be spirited and get dangerous to boot. Turn them all off and there's actually a better car lurking. Dont make the mistake of thinking I'm a technophobe, ABS when done right is fun on a track, the Commodore's TC is actually a good thing when all of it's power is lighting up in the wet, DSG's are the best replacement of a traditional auto you can think of etc. But it's about doign it right and electronics really is leading everyone down the wrong paths and it's not being done right. lovely cars are going to be lovely but that's not what I'm lamenting. It's good cars being fouled and the fact peopel like us are getting fewer in number, so we can not create the demand mass to get more like the Toybaru.
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Feb 20, 2013 01:46
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Weinertron posted:What's the highest torque application we've seen dual-clutch transmissions in, though? Is there a DSG out there that can handle Z06 levels of torque, let alone the 600+ ft-lbs in a ZR1? I haven't heard of any diesel trucks using dual-clutch transmissions yet, and it's really hard to hold gigantic torque with conventional manual transmissions, let alone newer tech. Big trucks have automated manual tranmissions: http://www.volvotrucks.com/trucks/na/en-us/products/engines/ishift/pages/ishift_ILF.aspx http://www.eaton.com/ecm/idcplg?IdcService=GET_FILE&dID=378780
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Feb 20, 2013 03:22
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Cat Terrist posted:Let me put it this way - Electronics masks the lovely engineering and is being used as a replacement to engineering as well. And it is making cars worse - Subaru are a very good example. The engineers have gotten lazy and allowed the electronics in and every single case that's happened the cars are worse. Cars that have been traditionally driver focused are going bye bye as they get blighted. Subaru I'm not totally sure that it was specifically due to electronics versus a conscious decision by management to sell 750,000 cars globally per year. They had to compromise to meet those goals. But yeah, I agree with you that electronics can cover for poor engineering. I just wonder to a certain extent how much it matters. The greater issue, and I think we agree on this, is the demise of people who actually want cars like the Toyobaru. I'm not going to say that it's wrong for people to want commuting appliances, but it makes things harder on the small slice of people who want something different. The problem is that enthusiasts as a whole tend to be very much talk and very little action. It's tough for an OE to cater to enthusiast desires when the enthusiast would rather buy a used S2K or dump some money in to an E30 or or or or.
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Feb 20, 2013 04:06
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Weinertron posted:What's the highest torque application we've seen dual-clutch transmissions in, though? Is there a DSG out there that can handle Z06 levels of torque, let alone the 600+ ft-lbs in a ZR1? I haven't heard of any diesel trucks using dual-clutch transmissions yet, and it's really hard to hold gigantic torque with conventional manual transmissions, let alone newer tech. For something that isn't completely exotic, the new S6 has a 7 speed DSG mated to a twin turbo V8 putting out 479ftlbs, which I think is more than the GTR. I found a pretty cool car blog. http://playswithcars.com/
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Feb 20, 2013 04:08
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Throatwarbler posted:I found a pretty cool car blog. I thought TTAC was bad, but this is a whole new level.
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Feb 20, 2013 05:03
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:Subaru I'm not totally sure that it was specifically due to electronics versus a conscious decision by management to sell 750,000 cars globally per year. They had to compromise to meet those goals. But yeah, I agree with you that electronics can cover for poor engineering. I just wonder to a certain extent how much it matters. The thing is that Subaru got to actually have the chance to being more than a blip by making well engineered cars - They didnt need to compromise. They had a fanatically loyal buyer base. They have for years sold every car they made and when car makers were exploding left and right, did it at a profit too. The truth is that most of the sales increases they trumptet are literally they make more cars to meet demand. quote:The greater issue, and I think we agree on this, is the demise of people who actually want cars like the Toyobaru. I'm not going to say that it's wrong for people to want commuting appliances, but it makes things harder on the small slice of people who want something different. The problem is that enthusiasts as a whole tend to be very much talk and very little action. It's tough for an OE to cater to enthusiast desires when the enthusiast would rather buy a used S2K or dump some money in to an E30 or or or or. True. I guess tho, the Toybaru shows someone in Subaru (mainly cause they were the ones who developed and build it) still thinks about the original WRX and how it lit up sales from people like us. It was exactly what we wanted in a new car and we reacted and bought it. The Toybaru is exactly what we want and look at the lines around the block. We might be a dying breed but there's always hope cars liek the Toybaru spark a few young drivers to want more than appliances
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Feb 20, 2013 05:19
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Jay-Zeus posted:The Charger is a fleet car and that 60K figure reflect that. I have yet to see one that wasn't a rental or a cop car in my neck of the woods. You just described the Commodore in New Zealand. Rental fleets and Police cars, very few privately owned (those ones are just as often the ridiculously vulgar HSV models).
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Feb 20, 2013 05:46
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Cat Terrist posted:We might be a dying breed but there's always hope cars liek the Toybaru spark a few young drivers to want more than appliances I think most young drivers do want more than appliances, but the problem is they don't have the money to drive the sales of new cars.
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Feb 20, 2013 06:07
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PT6A posted:I think most young drivers do want more than appliances, but the problem is they don't have the money to drive the sales of new cars. I agree. In real dollar terms, cars keep getting more expensive to buy/insure/fuel/maintain and young adult wages keep getting lower (if they're even employed at all). Even financially irresponsible youth can't justify spending 50%+ of their annual income on a new car. That's just a terrible financial decision to spend that much on a quickly depreciating asset. It's no wonder car makers continually cater to the 40+ crowd. Even as a young gearhead with a great job and paycheck I can't justify buying a brand new car (at least not one that I would actually want). The BRZ is the closest thing to an affordable fun car on the market today, and even still it's not exactly "cheap" for a young person. Guinness fucked around with this message at 06:21 on Feb 20, 2013 |
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Feb 20, 2013 06:17
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PT6A posted:I think most young drivers do want more than appliances, but the problem is they don't have the money to drive the sales of new cars. I wish that were true, I really do. But from what I see I dont think that's the case - it seems to be that being a car geek stopped being something to get into a few years ago. One thing I do note is the car culture is strongest where ther's good RWD options - lets face it, RWD (and turbo AWD) is more rewarding to work with, even poo poo RWD when new. FWD is unappealing and has hard limits what you can do. Car companies even with drat good engineering have immense problems making FWD behave at over 180Kw ATW and nothing anyone has backyarded says that could change.
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Feb 20, 2013 06:33
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What's amazing to me is a $30k auto loan for 5 years at 5% is north of $550/month. Not amazing because I don't believe in math but $500/month is still a lot of money to me and when it comes to new fun cars that doesn't get you much these days.
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Feb 20, 2013 06:34
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Guinness posted:Even as a young gearhead with a great job and paycheck I can't justify buying a brand new car (at least not one that I would actually want). The BRZ is the closest thing to an affordable fun car on the market today, and even still it's not exactly "cheap" for a young person. My karting partner's son is a young stig. He's by far the fastest person at the local karting center and is looking to buy his first car. I totally understand why the car industry isn't catering to him. On broke rear end high school kid first job minimum wage, he will be lucky to afford insurance let alone a car. The horrible part about it is, he's got really good taste in fun poo poo.
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Feb 20, 2013 06:52
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Aurune posted:On broke rear end high school kid first job minimum wage, he will be lucky to afford insurance let alone a car. The horrible part about it is, he's got really good taste in fun poo poo. So he'll deal like the rest of us did -- dream and wait.
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Feb 20, 2013 07:01
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Aurune posted:My karting partner's son is a young stig. He's by far the fastest person at the local karting center and is looking to buy his first car. I totally understand why the car industry isn't catering to him. On broke rear end high school kid first job minimum wage, he will be lucky to afford insurance let alone a car. The horrible part about it is, he's got really good taste in fun poo poo. Well, high school minimum wage job and someone in their mid 20s a couple years out of school and starting their career are two pretty different things. But even someone out of school making an average living (say 40-50k in a city) can't responsibly afford a nearly-30k car like a BRZ, let alone something really drool-worthy for twice that. Fortunately, a lot of great cars can be picked up a little bit used for substantially less, but used cars aren't driving the new car market.
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Feb 20, 2013 07:42
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kimbo305 posted:So he'll deal like the rest of us did -- dream and wait. I'm not sure I entirely agree that's the situation, but I think it's entirely rational to worry about things heading that way. My barometer for how well-integrated the fun is into car design is to look at the lower models, not the performance ones. If a base version is fun to drive, but just slow, you've got a fighting chance that the hot one will be pretty good. There's a limit to how much lipstick you can put on a pig in an attempt to force something to be enjoyable if the basic design doesn't lend itself to that.
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Feb 20, 2013 08:58
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InitialDave posted:My barometer for how well-integrated the fun is into car design is to look at the lower models, not the performance ones. If a base version is fun to drive, but just slow, you've got a fighting chance that the hot one will be pretty good. In that case things are looking pretty grim :/
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Feb 20, 2013 09:09
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kimbo305 posted:So he'll deal like the rest of us did -- dream and wait. What's he gonna dream and wait for? A broken rear end beaten up BRZ or a twenty five year old WRX? We are seeing our kind of cars vanishing and appliances being built instead, you think that will change? I dont. There's a drat good argument to be made between 1990 and 2007 was the best "Built for AI" and they are now vanishing. Rule out anything with obnoxious electonics, autos, tiptronic, DSG, grip monsters etc and you have a really small pool left. A FD RX7 is still one of the absolute best drivers cars you can get today, either new or used. Want to be horrified? The FD came out 20 years ago and there's gently caress all since that's genuinely a match for it as a drivers car. The original MX-5? 22 years ago. The original WRX? 21. The best WRX is either 99 or 2006, count the years. The MY99 is already 14 years old. The reality is that cars also just do not engage us, humans, as they once did. We dont have the option of feeling character anymore outside of a shrinking group of cars but humans are less and less caring. Cars with character? gently caress that says market surveys, no one wants that. They want docking for iPods, endless doodads, parking assist, 20 cup holders and the list goes on. I and others here want to feel the front wheels talking to us. NVH testing says gently caress that. Thank the Lord for the Toybaru tho, maybe there is hope in the bleakness of beige and marketing bullshit
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Feb 20, 2013 09:43
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kimbo305 posted:So he'll deal like the rest of us did -- dream and wait. You didn't have to do that, back in the day. In the muscle car era (arguably the heyday of american car culture), a high school kid could get enough cash to buy a brand new SS after a few summers of work. Now... You'd be lucky to get a loan on an econobox. AfricanBootyShine fucked around with this message at 09:49 on Feb 20, 2013 |
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Feb 20, 2013 09:44
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Internet Meme posted:You didn't have to do that, back in the day. In the muscle car era (arguably the heyday of american car culture), a high school kid could get enough cash to buy a brand new SS after a few summers of work. Now... You'd be lucky to get a loan on an econobox. No, they could not. They were driving 10-20 year old cars back then, too. Case in point, a base model stripper Chevelle SS in '70 was $3312. Corrected for inflation that's about $21k. That's a car designed and marketed as much as possible to that young male "going to get my rear end shot off in 'nam so better buy a hot rod now" crowd. That doesn't include a rear defrost, it doesn't include an AM radio, it doesn't include power steering and it certainly doesn't include AC. Realistically equipped models would have been at or above $30k adjusted. That is as out of the range of a high school kid on a part time job back then as it is now, even before you figure that credit was much harder to get. Even loaded, you're obviously also not getting airbags, ABS, traction control, crumple zones or even IIRC 4-wheel discs. The car companies have neither the obligation or the interest to make cars that used car buyers might want but new car buyers don't and won't pay for. That FD RX-7 might be a wonderful car for the price people are willing to pay for it now, but it's a great example of a car not enough people were willing to pony up enough for new, so it was dropped. If new car buyers don't want an engaging car, if they'd rather have EPS and an extra 1 MPG than steering feel, if they want a slushbox in their Corvette so their left leg doesn't get tired cruising the strip, that's what the carmakers are going to poop out. The reality is, the youngest generation isn't sold on owning a car at all let alone showing enthusiasm for high performance.
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Feb 20, 2013 10:17
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Snowdens Secret posted:No, they could not. They were driving 10-20 year old cars back then, too. I'd propose you are both right. The average age for a new car purchase has shifted in the last 30-40 years and cars tended to get into the hands of younger adults earlier second hand as second hand values just didnt hold like they do today - lets face it, a five year old car in the 60's would have been rusting and already falling to pieces, needing a lot of work. We forget how lousy the quality was in these days of cars that could last 40 years without anything other than regular service. In Australia esp where rust isnt an issue due to modern car metals, you can resonably expect a 30 year old car to be working and even be in not bad condition. 60's and 70's cars would have been fully rebuilt - twice - in that time more often than not. Young adults did get their hands on newer cars earlier, but yes, still had the 10 year old bombs. We forget that only 25 years ago, cars were not guarentteed to start in the morning and being handy with tools was a good thing. 40 years ago, almost mandatory. Now? Most drivers dont have a clue how to change tyres. They don't need to know more. So there's a range of factors also at play to the decline of AIness in the community I suppose if you add all of whole cars becoming stupidly reliable and actually able to last to a date we would never have thought likely in the 80's. quote:The reality is, the youngest generation isn't sold on owning a car at all let alone showing enthusiasm for high performance. And re-reading your post.... yeah, I agree. Not many want to own cars cause they like them I suppose CAT INTERCEPTOR fucked around with this message at 10:37 on Feb 20, 2013 |
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Feb 20, 2013 10:34
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