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Let's not forget the massive global recession and particularly the whole Lost Generation: American edition that's going on right now. Young people out of college are probably underemployed or unemployed right now, so cars and other fun stuff are honestly the last thing on their minds. Even for the ones with disposable income, stuff like computers, fancy phones, and high-end foodie obsessions offer a more affordable and justifiable place for discretionary spending/conspicuous consumption than driving a good car right now. You see a similar chift in the lost generations of Japan, though how much of this is economically driven and how much is cultural is difficult to say. On the cultural side, young people seem increasingly likely to live in urban areas where car ownership is less necessary and more difficult/costly. To stretch the specluation to its weakest point, you could make some vague guesses about continuing cultural shifts keep lowering the status of things associated with being blue collar/rednecks like sports cars, or even the whole houseproud, BMW-driving yuppie dad thing from the 80s (maybe the same thing that killed station wagons 2 generations ago). Unfortunately, it's not yet acceptable to want a swoopy sports coupe "ironically" (i.e. being able to enjoy something without it affecting your social status due to fashions and having "taste"), though the time may soon be coming. OXBALLS DOT COM fucked around with this message at 10:42 on Feb 20, 2013 |
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Feb 20, 2013 10:39
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If there is going to be a resurgence in driving cars for the sake of enjoying driving, I think it'll have to be with electric sports cars. I am ready for that distant day when I have to take my gas cars off the road from either pollution control or simply lack of gas. I don't want it to happen, but if it does, I can't fight it.
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Feb 20, 2013 11:03
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Cat Terrist posted:And re-reading your post.... yeah, I agree. Not many want to own cars cause they like them I suppose Yeah, I'd consider myself an enthusiast and I would rather not own a car (at least as a daily driver). Of course, if I didn't need to own a daily, I'd probably still own a less practical car. But I completely understand the lack of desire to own a car.
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Feb 20, 2013 13:56
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I have to agree with CT here, modern cars are really drat good on the whole. I see plenty of early to mid 90s car driving around as daily drivers for people, loads of them with over 250.000km on them and no real issues other than basic wear and tear and outdated looks. They're cheap to buy and service, they get reasonable fuel mileage and every mechanic in the country can fix them with his eyes closed. Hell, my parents drive a 2001 Citroën C5, the first generation of a car that became notorious for electrical problems and other issues, especially the early pre-facelift ones. Even then, it's got over 280.000km on it and it just keeps running perfectly, it starts every time even in the dead of winter, it has basically no rust, it's still as comfortable as ever and the engine doesn't feel worn out or anything. Sure, they've had wheel bearings and other high-mileage wear parts replaced, but it's paid off and compared to buying a new used car, the repair costs have been miniscule. kimbo305 posted:If there is going to be a resurgence in driving cars for the sake of enjoying driving, I think it'll have to be with electric sports cars. I am ready for that distant day when I have to take my gas cars off the road from either pollution control or simply lack of gas. I don't want it to happen, but if it does, I can't fight it. I take the Jay Leno view on electric cars, mostly. Getting more and more electric commuter cars and public transport on the roads to replace fossil fueled cars and buses means more gasoline for having fun on the weekends in old/classic cars, since it isn't being wasted in bumper-to-bumper traffic and commuting. But on the whole, I really really like electric propulsion and I totally want an electric car for myself. That means even more gasoline for those who prefer combustion engines for fun! RE: the "people own cars out of necessity, not desire" point, I think it's spot-on. For a lot of people, there simply isn't any viable alternatives to car ownership. If you aren't particularly interested in cars, it just feels like a chore. KozmoNaut fucked around with this message at 15:57 on Feb 20, 2013 |
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Feb 20, 2013 15:46
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Cat Terrist posted:I wish that were true, I really do. But from what I see I dont think that's the case - it seems to be that being a car geek stopped being something to get into a few years ago. I'm a recent engineering grad, and I've seen tons of my 23 year old friends buy new cars. The one who spent the most got a Ford Edge Sport, several got Honda CR-Vs and there was a Toyota Rav4 as well. Come to think of it, among my 7 college friends who got new cars after graduating the only non-crossover is a Prius. It's really anecdotal evidence, but seeing the segment of twenty-somethings capable of buying new cars are getting mostly crossovers says a ton.
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Feb 20, 2013 16:03
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I'm a twenty something and I like cars in theory but when I really think about realistically buying anything fun it would be stupid because I'd have all the downsides with almost no opportunity to enjoy the good. If I lived somewhere not car dependent I'd probably go totally car less. So it's 99 percent fantasy and I think there is a lot of that.
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Feb 20, 2013 16:22
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Weinertron posted:I'm a recent engineering grad, and I've seen tons of my 23 year old friends buy new cars. The one who spent the most got a Ford Edge Sport, several got Honda CR-Vs and there was a Toyota Rav4 as well. Come to think of it, among my 7 college friends who got new cars after graduating the only non-crossover is a Prius. I think it depends on where you're at. Out of peers I know who have bought/leased a new car, there's one Edge Sport (weird coincidence), three 1-series, a Fit, a Sonata, two Imprezas, a Mazda3 and a GTI. About half of them are stick, too. Basically, the only ones of my peers who bought cars are people who like cars, or need them for work.
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Feb 20, 2013 18:07
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Throatwarbler posted:For something that isn't completely exotic, the new S6 has a 7 speed DSG mated to a twin turbo V8 putting out 479ftlbs, which I think is more than the GTR. What about the 2012+ E63 AMG, or CLS63 AMG? Both have the 7-speed MCT, and the CLS63 with the AMG Performance Pack puts out 550hp & 590 ft/lbs. The E63 is available now as the AMG S-Line, which gives it AWD and a few other goodies. 577hp and 0-60 in 3.6 seconds, same 7-speed multi-clutch transmission. It does say something that the most powerful of the MB AMGs (the TT V12s with the "65" designation) are all still using the 5-speed "AMG SPEEDSHIFT" automatic.
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Feb 20, 2013 18:43
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Beyond the economic pressure against car ownership, it's just becoming simply not fun anymore. Traffic is ever increasing, driver distraction is ever increasing, law enforcement is ever increasing, driver skill is ever decreasing, road conditions are ever decreasing, and places to enjoy cars legally is ever decreasing. Back in the day, manufacturers were proud to stand by their cars for motorsport use and encouraged taking your car to the local drag strip to have some fun. Now, if you are lucky enough to have a venue locally for motorsports of any kind, you have the manufacturers scouring for ownership info so they can invalidate warranties. You also better hope your insurance company doesn't catch wind of what weekend fun your are having or you may suddenly find yourself without coverage. All the while on a daily basis you are hoping the roads themselves aren't going to tear your car to shreds while dodging drivers talking on cell phones, texting, or plain just daydreaming. Meanwhile, when you do get the opportunity to get around and put some distance between you and the person who is more concerned about their facebook status than driving, you get nailed with "excessive acceleration" or "aggressive driving" if you aren't photographed with some automated system to generate a ticket.
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Feb 20, 2013 19:43
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bull3964 posted:Beyond the economic pressure against car ownership, it's just becoming simply not fun anymore. I have to agree 100% with this sentiment, and not only because I own a dead brand. So much to worry about - I seem to recall not too long ago where people would not mess with your car just because it looked nice. I have had over $1,000 worth of door dings just from people being rude and not giving a poo poo. My limited edition "Not even 300 in the US" car? Someone put their loving bags on the roof because they didn't want to get them dirty on the asphalt. That was a fun scratch. It's pretty sad when you have to get a shitbox to replace other shitboxes just because you're tired of others' disregard as they have an econobox that they don't even change the oil in, except when the "Genie Light" comes on. I really enjoy my cars, but I don't even want to take most of them outside at this point, because someone is going to gently caress it up (again).
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Feb 20, 2013 19:58
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Also, these drat kids need to get off my lawn!
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Feb 20, 2013 20:19
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Zoom Zoom, motherfuckers
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I remember when cars cost a nickel, and in those days, nickels had pictures of bumblebees on 'em. Gimme five bees for a quarter, you'd say. Now where were we?
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Feb 20, 2013 20:56
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Pr0kjayhawk posted:Also, these drat kids need to get off my lawn! I used to yell at kids to get the gently caress off the lawn. Now..... they are all inside playing them computer games and posting on that MyBookbirdie thing (I'm pretty sure it's a bad thing that the above attempt at humour actually is the truth about modern growing up)
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Feb 20, 2013 22:13
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Cat Terrist posted:I used to yell at kids to get the gently caress off the lawn. Now..... they are all inside playing them computer games and posting on that MyBookbirdie thing It's not too far off. When people talk about the musclecar heyday, having a car and showing it off was a key part of the male mating ritual. That has largely moved to digital. The bang for the buck (heh) of a car in terms of chances to get you laid has plummeted dramatically.
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Feb 20, 2013 23:03
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Going back to the point about buying muscle cars as a young guy, yeah, they could. You know who the people were that were buying those cars, though? Guys right out of the military, Vietnam era. Most of my moms cousins had SS Chevelles, Cyclone Spoilers etc that they bought after being discharged. My dad bought a 64 Sport Fury with a 383 and a 4 speed. A lot of young kids could buy them new, or a year old, by saving summer money. You want to afford a new muscle car? Enlist, go get shot at in Afghanistan, and don't spend anything while you're out there. e- when it comes to American muscle cars, I think the big 3 know their market, and they learned it after WWII/Korea. Guys hooked on adrenalin coming back from a war. The first muscle war happened in the mid-50's, the second in the late 60's, and the third is happening right now, all during and after a major American conflict. There's other factors at play, but I think that's the main one. Seizure Meat fucked around with this message at 00:43 on Feb 21, 2013 |
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Feb 21, 2013 00:37
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Working in the construction industry, I see a lot of 20-somethings with money for the first time, buying new cars. They seem to love Mustangs, GTIs and WRXs.
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Feb 21, 2013 01:00
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Nait Sirhc posted:What about the 2012+ E63 AMG, or CLS63 AMG? Both have the 7-speed MCT, and the CLS63 with the AMG Performance Pack puts out 550hp & 590 ft/lbs. The MCT isn't a dual clutch. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7G-Tronic#AMG_SpeedShift_.282004-.29 That being said I looked it up and the SLS does use a dual clutch, same unit as the Ferrari California. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_SLS_AMG#Transmission
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Feb 21, 2013 01:23
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Super Aggro Crag posted:Working in the construction industry, I see a lot of 20-somethings with money for the first time, buying new cars. They seem to love Mustangs, GTIs and WRXs. And you know, those young guys often dont have much debt and earn good money too. Sure it's hard work but they get a much better start to adult life than the debt buried Uni grads.
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Feb 21, 2013 01:47
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VikingSkull posted:Going back to the point about buying muscle cars as a young guy, yeah, they could. You know who the people were that were buying those cars, though? Guys right out of the military, Vietnam era. Most of my moms cousins had SS Chevelles, Cyclone Spoilers etc that they bought after being discharged. My dad bought a 64 Sport Fury with a 383 and a 4 speed. A lot of young kids could buy them new, or a year old, by saving summer money. Very good point. A friend of mine was in the Navy for four years. While enlisted, he owned a Mustang GT, a C5 corvette, a Cobalt SS supercharged, and a 4x4 F-150...all at different times. Myself and my friends who went to college straight out of high school? Couple stick-shift Mazdas, a Buick, a Focus, etc..
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Feb 21, 2013 04:12
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West SAAB Story posted:
Agreed. And though this isn't possible in every situation, I've found parking just a little bit farther away tends to eliminate the fatties that have to, while holding on, open their door full-swing and propel themselves out of their cars. Paradoxically, a lonely, nice-looking Audi has also brought unwanted scrutiny. You just can't win. It was funny, though. I went to park in the parking garage at Denver's airport - so I put it fairly far away, all by itself, next to a concrete column (so at least one door was safe). When I got back from my trip, there was an M3 next to me, a new STi next to him, a C63 parked across from me, and an Alpina B7 next to the C63. There we were, 5 cars at the far end of the parking garage - and not another car within 20 spaces of us. I think we all knew 'the code' that day.
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Feb 21, 2013 06:44
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In Canada and trying to decide between the new SS and a Chrysler SRT model? Don't worry, GM isn't selling the SS in Canada. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-drive/new-cars/auto-news/hot-v-8-chevrolet-ss-sedan-not-coming-to-canada/article8831120/
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Feb 21, 2013 09:56
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VikingSkull posted:Going back to the point about buying muscle cars as a young guy, yeah, they could. You know who the people were that were buying those cars, though? Guys right out of the military, Vietnam era. Most of my moms cousins had SS Chevelles, Cyclone Spoilers etc that they bought after being discharged. My dad bought a 64 Sport Fury with a 383 and a 4 speed. A lot of young kids could buy them new, or a year old, by saving summer money. Well back then the median wage was higher for people too. I'm pretty sure in the US if you adjusted minimal wage to match inflation, back in 1968 you were making $10.50 in today's dollars. People had more buying power back then.
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Feb 21, 2013 14:15
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Coredump posted:Well back then the median wage was higher for people too. I'm pretty sure in the US if you adjusted minimal wage to match inflation, back in 1968 you were making $10.50 in today's dollars. People had more buying power back then. Absolutely, and there was less discretionary spending, as well. You didn't have a cell phone bill as a teenager, no MMO monthly fee, designer clothes weren't what they are now, all of that. I do stick by my point, though, that the big 3 specifically targeted young males coming home from war who needed some kind of excitement once they got back. Last month my grandfather died, and while the family was together after the services, I was talking to my mom's cousins about my Daytona Ram, and how underneath the pickup body, it was basically a muscle car chassis instead of a modern setup. They all started telling stories of street racing in the late 60's, and all of them said the same thing basically. They had a ton of money saved up from when they were deployed, and when they returned home at the ripe old age of 21, they wanted the fastest, brightest and most obnoxious cars they could afford. Back then there were 3 dragstrips near our area, but they spent more time street racing because it was more exciting and dangerous. They said they got off on the danger and rebellious aspect of illegal street racing, and it helped them adjust back to normal life a bit easier. I think Detroit has known about this phenomenon since post WWII, and they specifically target that market because of it. Hell, the Super Bee and Road Runner in particular were definitely targeted at young people almost exclusively. They were totally stripper cars with the biggest engines available, and the only options were performance oriented, mostly. Retail on those were around $3,000 even, cheap even for that time period. Cars like that in the 60's, with their bright colors and flashy bodywork and stripes, definitely weren't marketed at guys 40+, as most of that market was conservative and not part of the counter-culture movement at the time. Mopars especially, though Ford and Chevy had their share. The Mopar muscle cars were counter-culture in their roots, and their styling certainly showed it, they were basically targeting males age 18-30. e- Hell, Dodge wanted to call Plum Crazy purple Statutory Grape, until the lawyers stepped in. You don't name a color Statutory Grape while marketing to middle aged men. Seizure Meat fucked around with this message at 14:57 on Feb 21, 2013 |
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Feb 21, 2013 14:53
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Coredump posted:Well back then the median wage was higher for people too. I'm pretty sure in the US if you adjusted minimal wage to match inflation, back in 1968 you were making $10.50 in today's dollars. People had more buying power back then. In 1968 the work force barely included any women. Cut out half your labor pool and make the other half support a household on a single earner's salary and the value of labor will unsurprisingly jump. Dudes flush with military deployment cash making questionable decisions with their money has been a thing since wars were fought with spears, and is very much still a thing today. (I bought a poorly thought out literbike with mine.) Military base parking lots are packed with all sorts of crazy metal, often procured at insane prices and/or lease conditions that make a $40K Altima sound reasonable. The military gives mandatory training telling people not to overspend on cars, and it doesn't work, and the bases are surrounded by predator dealers. Harley, Jeep and probably many others also offer deals (which may or may not be) through the PX and other channels so you can impulse buy while you're still deployed and pick it up when you get home. Saying that someone who survived Vietnam had some loose spending money afterwards is not the same as saying a '70s high school kid could afford a fancy new car; they were still getting Grandma's hand-me-downs. If they're lucky it was a 15-year old Wildcat.
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Feb 21, 2013 15:33
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VikingSkull posted:e- Hell, Dodge wanted to call Plum Crazy purple Statutory Grape, until the lawyers stepped in. You don't name a color Statutory Grape while marketing to middle aged men. 99% certain that's urban legend.
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Feb 21, 2013 15:45
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I looked it up and apparently a journalist coined the name while writing about Charlie Glotzbach's Plum Crazy NASCAR Superbird, so yeah, not a Mopar name. Still, though, color names were outrageous back then. Dodge: Sublime Green Go Go Mango Top Banana Panther Pink Plum Crazy Plymouth: Limelight Sassy Grass Green Vitamin “C” Lemon Twist Moulin Rouge In Violet Tor Red Ford: Original Cinnamon Bring ‘Em Back Olive Three Putt Green Anti-Establish Mint Last Stand Custard There She Blue Young Turquoise Hulla Blue Good Clean Fawn Counter Revolutionary Red Knight White Freudian Gilt History Onyx Not exactly color names that would appeal to a 45 year old CPA or engineer. Snowdens Secret posted:In 1968 the work force barely included any women. Cut out half your labor pool and make the other half support a household on a single earner's salary and the value of labor will unsurprisingly jump. They couldn't afford a brand new car, but the used market was much better than it is now. Now people buy a car and keep it 5-10 years, but in the 50's, 60's and 70's it wasn't uncommon to get a new car every 2 or 3 years if you had the capability to buy new. So a kid in 1972 could get a 69 Chevelle for $1,000 (or less). That's mainly how young kids could get a muscle car back then by saving paper route money for a year or two. Most 16-21 year olds weren't buying new, just like today. It's just that the cars you could get used back then were way cooler on average. One of my co-workers owned about a dozen Challengers in the late 70's, because you could pick them up for $500. After the gas crisis in '73, muscle cars were hard to own, and weren't collectibles yet, so the depreciation on them was really crazy. Seizure Meat fucked around with this message at 15:57 on Feb 21, 2013 |
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Feb 21, 2013 15:47
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My dad had new/lightly used Impala/Camaro/Chevelle SS's when he was a kid and so did his brother. Granted, my grandpa was a TWA pilot back when pilots got paid, but I don't think he was the type to just buy them those kind of cars. He still talks about the Chevelle SS that got towed from in front of his house while he was on a deployment because my grandma couldn't get it started after the city passed some law about parked cars having to be moveable. He gets pissed.
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Feb 21, 2013 15:56
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this is interesting as hell, I never knew about the military/muscle car connection.
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Feb 21, 2013 16:20
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VikingSkull posted:Original Cinnamon Half of these sound like the titles to porn movies.
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Feb 21, 2013 16:35
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VikingSkull posted:Now people buy a car and keep it 5-10 years, but in the 50's, 60's and 70's it wasn't uncommon to get a new car every 2 or 3 years if you had the capability to buy new. Well, that was usually because they were starting to become unreliable by that point. My dad (62) still marvels every once and awhile about how cars today almost always make it over 100k with nothing more than fluid changes and how car bodies don't become swiss cheese after a handful of winters. He grew up in an age where you were looking at an engine rebuild after 20k-30k miles and were brushing up on your bondo skills after the 4th winter. Now you can buy a $13k new car and drive it into the ground for at least 5 years and have no major maintenance or warranty woes.
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Feb 21, 2013 16:55
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One thing I just thought about. Your average camry focus kia whatever commuter appliance is faster than most of those hot muscle cars and far faster than their equivalents from that era. Granted you don't have the sound and fury when you step on it in a civic but something to think about.
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Feb 21, 2013 18:12
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I'd like to see a muscle car driving on bias plies even try to run a 700ft slalom.
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Feb 21, 2013 18:32
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bull3964 posted:Well, that was usually because they were starting to become unreliable by that point. My dad is the same age and has the same feeling. He owns a 64.5 Mustang that he did a full restore on, and even driving it 500 miles a summer a handful of little problems crop up. They are easy to fix, but his modern Honda has seen almost 90k miles with just fluid changes, and this is in Cleveland where salt is put down at the first sight of snowflakes. His group of friends have quite a few classic muscle cars between them, and even with good maintenance it seems like something is always breaking. He has told me in the 50's-60's people were more willing to fix their cars themselves, or take it to the local mechanic. His father bought a new car every 2-3 years, which is mind boggling to me. My dad did grow up in the rich white 50's Suburbia, so maybe his experience isn't universal, but I can not think of anyone I personally know under 30 who can do their oil change, or even know what oil does. It's a huge culture change and the cars we drive now reflect that.
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Feb 21, 2013 18:44
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TrinityOfDeath posted:It's a huge culture change and the cars we drive now reflect that. I would say the cars drive the culture. Why learn about whats going on under the hood when there is rarely a problem?
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Feb 21, 2013 18:58
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Xguard86 posted:I would say the cars drive the culture. Why learn about whats going on under the hood when there is rarely a problem? That's certainly part of it, but a huge part of what MAKES these cars so maintenance free really hinders the amount of shadetree mechanic stuff. Engine rebuilds used to be a fairly easy thing that anyone could tackle. Now though, the way engines are packaged and the complexity of the systems as well as the tolerances in the engine itself make it that much harder. The same can be said for pretty much any system on the car.
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Feb 21, 2013 19:28
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Autoblog had shots of this C7 which they're speculating is the Grand Sport model, but check this out: Is it odd that all that dirty snow is kicked up right in the center like that? It just seems like a really odd flow for the snow to go right there. Also there's something about the yellow color and the fact that it goes up to the roof but the rest of the roof is black that really reminds me of that Scion xc or whatever it is. Edit: yeah this:  Edit: vv I can't believe I never noticed that, or just didn't remember it. I don't think any of the gt-r's I've seen in real life have had that roof though, and I see plenty of photos online of it with CF and with painted roofs. How's that work, is the CF roof an option you can pay extra for or is the painted roof additional? Also has Chevy given any indication there'll be a glass targa top available? davebo fucked around with this message at 23:00 on Feb 21, 2013 |
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Feb 21, 2013 22:40
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... which is a knockoff of the GT-R's a-pilar and roof treatment. 
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Feb 21, 2013 22:48
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The dirt is probably just because that is the lowest pressure zone on the back of the car, so that's where all the dirt and snow get sucked up and stuck.
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Feb 21, 2013 23:16
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I really hope that un-painted plastic is a test mule thing, because all I see is  And seriously, who puts silver stripes on yellow cars?
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Feb 21, 2013 23:41
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Lightbulb Out posted:The dirt is probably just because that is the lowest pressure zone on the back of the car, so that's where all the dirt and snow get sucked up and stuck. Yeah, the rear end of my station wagons will get moderately filthy even when the rest of the car is clean. It only gets worse once a spoiler is added.
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Feb 21, 2013 23:59
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