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lonelywurm posted:I am curious why they made Newfoundland independent. No way that would happen - it was either going to be a perpetual colony or a province of Canada, with no middle ground. The Dominion of Newfoundland was a British Dominion from 1907 to 1949 (before which the territory had the status of a British colony, self-governing from 1855).  It shared a sea border St. Miquelon, the only remnant of the French colony of New France, which remains to this day legally a part of France. 
twoday fucked around with this message at 00:29 on Feb 20, 2013 |
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Feb 20, 2013 00:25
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A Buttery Pastry posted:That's really my point; Americans don't care about Greenland, but they do care about cheap resources.  To the point of attacking a NATO and EU nation, right as the current president of the USA is seeking a USA-EU free trade agreement. You really think that Americans, so desperate for resources, are going to basically kill NATO, and ruin any chance of a USA-EU FTA that would have gotten those cheap resources to the USA anyway when there are still plenty of other perfectly good nations the USA could declare war on to get resources anyway without losing all diplomatic relations with the the region of the world that still overall likes the USA? Or that the American bloodlust for Socialists is so strong they are willing to attack Greenland, but not Venezuala, a socialist nation with far worse relations than Denmark? That's insane. Also I have never heard anyone in the USA care about Greenland other than saying "lol it actually has ice and iceland has green".
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Feb 20, 2013 00:53
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DrProsek posted:
I guess my joke about it happening within 10 years might have made it sound like a expected something really dramatic, but that's not what I meant. The thing about them being indigenous and socialist was not meant as a justification for a war (because I don't really expect one.), but simply as one more thing that would otherize the people who pay the price for Western living. Isn't this basically what's happening in Africa, just with Chinese instead of Americans, and thousands of natives replaced with millions? Deceitful Penguin posted:
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Feb 20, 2013 02:21
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The US doesn't give a gently caress about Greenland. The Chinese and Russians are not there. We have our air base. There is no oil. We send the US Navy where we drat well please already and I assure you, there are already plans for protecting shipping lanes through there should that became a viable passage. As it stands right now, I think a few ships go through there but only in the middle of the summer when there is reported ice breaks enough. Shipping lanes would also have to change so that somewhere in Alaska or Canada became a good shipping point to send whatever to Europe or at least out the other side. Even if there was oil, it's a lot less invasive if we just send our companies and have them work within the system already established than take over the country directly.twoday posted:The Dominion of Newfoundland was a British Dominion from 1907 to 1949 (before which the territory had the status of a British colony, self-governing from 1855). Now that is interesting. Meet Kaliningrad, Russia. It's not really in Russia but to the west and an exclave of Russia.  Russia gets a warm water port to not have to pass through Finnish or Estonian waters but it's still not attached to Russia proper. 
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Feb 20, 2013 02:39
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I've heard people suggest that the USA should include Canada. I've seen people in history say it should stretch from the Pole to the Panama canal. I've even seen the occasional wacky alt-history proposal of a USA that stretches from Pole to Shining Pole (And have implemented such in Paradox videogames  ).But I cannot say I have ever seen people suggest Greenland and/or Iceland should properly be part of the US. The notion that one or both voluntarily join up during/after WW2? Yes. But the idea that it's Manifest Destiny and that their absence as the 51st and 52nd states is an affront? I have to say I've never come across that myself.
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Feb 20, 2013 02:41
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Deceitful Penguin posted:Thems some flimsy technicalities what just mean the yanks just have a base and are in Nato, while in possession of a treaty. None of that would justify invadin' a fellow Nato member fer oil. I say bring it. Denmark enforces their sovereignty with their mighty Sirius Sledge Patrol. 
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Feb 20, 2013 02:42
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Even though the United States failed to purchase Greenland from Denmark in the 1940s, America has done a lot of military operations in the region. It is really fascinating. My absolute favorite is Operation Iceworm, known better as Camp Century. It was a secret experimental "city of ice" built by the Army Corps of Engineer housing a nuclear reactor and bunkers. It was inhabited from 1960 to 1966 by a few hundred people. The Boy Scouts provided several members to serve as "Junior Scientific Aides". 
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Feb 20, 2013 03:11
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GreenCard78 posted:There is no oil. Actually thats why I posted that map, there IS oil. An incredible amount of it. And as the ice melts, more and more becomes recoverable. Greenlands land and sea reserves are estimated at over 52 billion barrels, but it could be much more as it's nearly impossible to survey. Oil companies are already all over the arctic, and it's a huge land grab from the various countries to get claims in for the area.
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Feb 20, 2013 04:39
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Mister Adequate posted:But I cannot say I have ever seen people suggest Greenland and/or Iceland should properly be part of the US. The notion that one or both voluntarily join up during/after WW2? Yes. But the idea that it's Manifest Destiny and that their absence as the 51st and 52nd states is an affront? I have to say I've never come across that myself. List of reasons to annex Greenland before the discovery of Arctic Oil: 1. It would piss off Denmark 2. We could tell Canada "we have you surrounded" and smirk 3. It might be fun to go skiing there in the summer months List of Reasons to annex Iceland pre-2008: 1. Banks List of Reasons to annex Iceland post-2008: 1. Bjork This is why the US has never seriously discussed annexing Greenland and Iceland.
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Feb 20, 2013 05:06
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GreenCard78 posted:Meet Kaliningrad, Russia. It's not really in Russia but to the west and an exclave of Russia.
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Feb 20, 2013 05:21
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French Guiana (called Guyane in French) is a French department and region that borders Brazil and Suriname: You can even see it on Euro banknotes:  (lower left, next to EYPΩ.
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Feb 20, 2013 09:13
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I'm sure other people made the connection, but I thought it was really cool how this map tied into one from a few pages further back: Mast posted:and here's the 2008 presidential election:
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Feb 20, 2013 09:43
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Eh, it's just random history nerds who really think Manifest Destiny is the greatest invention ever, and who know that the purchase/take over of Greenland has been a goal of parts of the American establishment at various points in history. Well, and Iceland of course, just to make sure America is really safe. Basically the kind of people who can't grasp the idea that someone might not want to be an American. Red_Mage posted:List of Reasons to annex Iceland pre-2008: Annexing Iceland..... Ssthalar posted:I say bring it. Denmark enforces their sovereignty with their mighty Sirius Sledge Patrol.
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Feb 20, 2013 16:49
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Deceitful Penguin posted:The idea of such people existing fills me with horrified glee. ... And annexing Iceland, loool. Like other people in the thread have said, these people don't exist. I have maybe seen a couple of people say the USA should own Canada, maybe one who thinks the USA should own Mexico (something about "Well if they all want to come over here so bad, let's just become one country, make them all citizens, and then they can go wherever"... strangely not as insane as the reason for the reason of owning Canada which boiled down to pretty borders), but never a word about Greenland or Iceland. Although the exceptionalism thing yeah, some Americans still think the USA is a shining city on a hill. I had a guy in my college English class, when trying to find reasons a character in a story could not be racist (don't ask long story) mention "Well he was a soldier, and as a soldier he believed in what America stood for like democracy and equal rights for everyone, so he couldn't be racist!". I hope he just had nothing to say but wanted to get participation points so he just tossed out the first thing that came to mind. Now to post a map, not really politically loaded I guess, but allegedly a map of Europe in 814.  Click for big.
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Feb 20, 2013 17:03
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 The Holy Roman Empire in 1789. Keep in mind that this map has already been massively simplified. Estimates of just how many territories could be counted in the Empire range between 300 and 1000, from important European powers like Austria and Prussia all the way down to the "Imperial villages" with only a couple of hundred inhabitants or even the Imperial abbeys whose jurisdiction didn't extend beyond the monastery walls. I love this era 
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Feb 20, 2013 17:29
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twoday posted:It shared a sea border St. Miquelon, the only remnant of the French colony of New France, which remains to this day legally a part of France.
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Feb 20, 2013 17:35
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twoday posted:The Dominion of Newfoundland was a British Dominion from 1907 to 1949 (before which the territory had the status of a British colony, self-governing from 1855). As for a map, this was a supposedly tongue-in-cheek proposal by the Swiss People's Party for a Greater Switzerland:  (How the Swiss People's Party want to make Switzerland bigger)
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Feb 20, 2013 21:00
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lonelywurm posted:As for a map, this was a supposedly tongue-in-cheek proposal by the Swiss People's Party for a Greater Switzerland:
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Feb 20, 2013 21:29
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lonelywurm posted:I'm aware of that, though you forgot the bit where it purposefully relinquished self-government in 1934, reverting back to central rule from London - which it maintained until 1949 (when it became a province). That's why I don't see any alt-history justification for an independent Newfoundland. The image refers to this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlargement_of_Switzerland In fact Vorarlberg has already voted once to join Switzerland, and some of the Italian regions have strong separatist parties who seek the improved self-determination offered by joining the confederation. At one time even Milan was held by Swiss cantons. Political opposition stems from maintaining the status quo in terms of linguistic and religious affiliation (historically the swiss political landscape has been very stable), and the political backlash from neighboring countries. Two hundred years ago joining would have been very easy as shown by the addition of Jura (the area already in Switzerland) to Bern (which then gained independence in the 1970s). Alsatian is quite close to swiss german, as is swabian. Prior to the centralization of power and the cultural/linguistic assimilation, its conceivable that those regions could have joined Switzerland as equal members.
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Feb 20, 2013 22:04
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HorseRenoir posted:At least they were nice enough to leave Liechtenstein alone. I've been to Liechtenstein before. I'd leave it out of my country too.
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Feb 20, 2013 22:07
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Ammat The Ankh posted:I've been to Liechtenstein before. I'd leave it out of my country too. What's it like?All I know about it is that the ruling Prince said he would leave the country if his people had voted for abortion rights. I always wondered what it felt like to be born in Monaco or such places.Unless freak accidents you know you're set for life. Kurtofan fucked around with this message at 23:54 on Feb 20, 2013 |
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Feb 20, 2013 23:50
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DrProsek posted:strangely not as insane as the reason for the reason of owning Canada which boiled down to pretty borders) The only reason to have borders at all is for them to be pretty, and the insane are those who allow abominations such as disunited continents to exist.
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Feb 21, 2013 00:07
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Mister Adequate posted:The only reason to have borders at all is for them to be pretty, and the insane are those who allow abominations such as disunited continents to exist. So says every Paradox game player before launching WWXIV.
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Feb 21, 2013 07:13
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If England can fight a war with Spain over an ear, I think plunging the world into a neverending war over my desire for more square boarders isn't without precedent.
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Feb 21, 2013 07:19
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edit poo poo this is NOT the paradox thread.
Baloogan fucked around with this message at 07:48 on Feb 21, 2013 |
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Feb 21, 2013 07:43
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The disunity of the British Isles vexes me. Tiny islands should not have separate nations in them.
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Feb 21, 2013 07:44
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All Of The Dicks posted:The disunity of the British Isles vexes me. Tiny islands should not have separate nations in them. Yes, but have you heard about this rhyme I've made up involving 'home rule' and 'Rome rule'? I'll explain
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Feb 21, 2013 09:02
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Kurtofan posted:What's it like?All I know about it is that the ruling Prince said he would leave the country if his people had voted for abortion rights. Hope this helps~
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Feb 21, 2013 16:31
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Deceitful Penguin posted:You drive through a bunch of small pretty towns in either Switzerland or Austria, enjoying the quaintness of the countryside until you reach the one with a central bank and a villa. Then you're in the capital of Liechtenstein: Vaduz. Then you buy a t-shirt from the country gift-shop and wonder if you should try to meet the Prince only to be informed he's away, like most of the time. So if you're born in Liechtenstein you behave like an Icelandic tourist?
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Feb 21, 2013 18:55
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Contested seas around Gibraltar: the dispute affects access to the port of Gibraltar (where ships like to refuel) and fishing in the surrounding waters. Gibraltar is also famously one of the "keys that lock the world" from a military perspective. Spanish claim - only the bay belongs to Blighty.  British claim - a nice 3-nautical-mile chunk of territorial waters.
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Feb 21, 2013 20:12
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AlexG posted:Contested seas around Gibraltar: the dispute affects access to the port of Gibraltar (where ships like to refuel) and fishing in the surrounding waters. Gibraltar is also famously one of the "keys that lock the world" from a military perspective. I'm not sure I understand this map, is Spain's claim that they own the waters of the port while the waters of the bay and the peninsula are owned by the UK?
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Feb 21, 2013 20:38
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Elim Garak posted:I'm not sure I understand this map, is Spain's claim that they own the waters of the port while the waters of the bay and the peninsula are owned by the UK? Spain claims that they own everything except the little bit of harbour (solid orange shading). Sorry, I said "bay" above which was a mistake.
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Feb 21, 2013 20:42
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Freudian posted:So if you're born in Liechtenstein you behave like an Icelandic tourist? Iceland ain't exactly the same, though we're also a wealthy small nation 'cause we don't have the gambling or money laundry / tax haven thing. Still, it probably ain't that different, just a lot more money to be had than in most places.
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Feb 21, 2013 20:44
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Red_Mage posted:List of Reasons to annex Iceland pre-2008: Also, to prevent it being taken over by Germany during World War II, since it was a Danish possession at the time - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Iceland. Yes, the British did once actually invade Iceland, although it sounds like about the lamest invasion of anywhere by anyone. And the Americans then took over the occupation from 1941 to the end of the war.
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Feb 21, 2013 22:08
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General Panic posted:Also, to prevent it being taken over by Germany during World War II, since it was a Danish possession at the time - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Iceland. It used to be the case on Google if you searched for "Cod War" it would say "Did you mean: Cold War?"
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Feb 21, 2013 22:22
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All Of The Dicks posted:The disunity of the British Isles vexes me. Tiny islands should not have separate nations in them. At least it's better then Hispaniola.
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Feb 21, 2013 22:25
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computer parts posted:At least it's better then Hispaniola. You think Hispaniola is bad? Try Cyprus, with 4 active actors on one tiny island. Or for the comedy option: Märket, Kataja & Koiluto. Lets divide up these miniscule hunks of rock because holy loving poo poo why is Europe so many countries.
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Feb 21, 2013 22:31
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Bringing us back full circle to the topic of politically loaded maps again, here's another map that says "Screw you Guyana. Love, Venezuela."
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Feb 21, 2013 22:54
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ComradeCosmobot posted:Bringing us back full circle to the topic of politically loaded maps again, here's another map that says "Screw you Guyana. Love, Venezuela." Guatemala tried this in the late 1960s with Belize (which at that point was still under British administration) up to the point of assembling an invasion force. They were stopped by an ad hoc Royal Navy task force led by the ancient aircraft carrier Ark Royal launching a few strike aircraft to overfly Belize at the limit of their range. There's a great book on the subject which really explains why the British government is so goddamned gung ho for the two modern aircraft carriers currently under construction. Well, that and the unprovoked invasion of the Falklands.
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Feb 21, 2013 23:11
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:Guatemala tried this in the late 1960s with Belize They still hate each other.
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Feb 21, 2013 23:17
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