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Lord Tywin posted:I wonder how making your rival senators generals will work out, since I would probably just send them on suicide missions. Stick them all in the same army and watch them assassinate each other.
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Feb 23, 2013 15:20
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Man, I really shouldn't be excited for this, and yet I am. Shogun 2 MP was such a let-down and the multiplayer campaign bugs aggravating, it'd be nice if TCA got their act together at release this time.
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Feb 23, 2013 15:23
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Tomn posted:On the other hand, wouldn't it be considered a legitimate tactic to take an influential opposing senator and send him out to a dangerous (and under-supported) post? Either he dies in battle, ending the problem forever, or else he fails horribly in his task, reducing his future influence in the Senate. Win-win either way, unless of course he just so happens to be a charismatic, brilliant young chap who manages to turn everything around and win unending accolades for himself. That is a great point. This is where Lord Tywin's point comes to the fore. In real life it would depend on their popularity in the Senate, what powerful backers they had and so on but simulating that kind of politics would be hard in a paradox game let alone in a TW one. The other question will be though can you afford to throw away capable rivals easily. In a vacuum this seems doable but when you're at war with Carthage can you really send those troops and an able general off to die? Can you get by leaving a rich province to a competent at best administrator while keeping someone who could bring you double the income in exile? Will the plebs take losing battles well? Will the Senate lose faith in you because your chosen general lost the battle? The family of your opponent certainly wont be pleased you sent him off to die. Of course how much of this is actually in the game is an open question. Off topic The Sopranos examined this issue well, each of Tony's internal rivals were good earners and as the seasons went on in various ways he felt the lack of such competant lieutenants.
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Feb 23, 2013 16:03
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I think that the nationwide "we lost an important person/battle" penalty combined with a more specific "you dumb gently caress" message from the senate would make losing characters both more meaningful beyond "oh no I'm one heavy cavalry unit short" and would be A a small flavour effect in regular play B a good counter to funneling half the aristocracy into the nearest Rebel Militia Hoplite.
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Feb 23, 2013 17:36
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Lord Tywin posted:- You can choose people from the Senate to become a general to weaken the influence of their respective families in the Senate, but they might become a problem if they get too powerful. Oh man this sounds great, I really hope the Senate system is handled well, I really want to see some truly screwed up characters forming factions/rivalries and sticking their oar in.
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Feb 23, 2013 18:24
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I'd be more interested to see how they react to half the senate out there getting victories. Lord knows armies of General's Bodyguard tend to be very, VERY effective. Will we end up with situations where the Senate calls them back and the Senator doesn't want to go, they're too busy winning more land?
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Feb 23, 2013 18:24
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I really hope they keep and expand those mentioned features for the future games of the series, I still hope they will give the 18th and 19th century another go (all at once too!). I guess I'll have to wait until 2017 for that though. I expect we'll be seeing a Rise of the Roman Republic/Fall of the Roman Empires DLC too.
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Feb 23, 2013 18:30
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There seems to be very few mods for Shogun 2 on the Steam workshop. I just wanted an easy way to install a skill points fix without having to trudge through the sperg wasteland that is TWC 
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Feb 23, 2013 18:37
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I'm hoping for a good mixture of weird traits for Senators/Generals, just to see what bizarre mixture of personalities it might create. Like somebody who gets sent off to tame some lovely little band of pirates/outlaws, demands and gets a triumph and then spends the rest of his life as a couch-general causing trouble because he considers himself an "expert" in warfare. I have no idea how in-depth they plan on making individual senate members (if at all) but it's something I'd really love to see. The idea of the Senate having a real influence in a Total War game is fascinating to me - are there going to be elections for important positions within Rome itself or is that just expecting too much? Are factions' political strength just going to be dictated by success on the battlefield?
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Feb 23, 2013 18:38
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Brannock posted:There seems to be very few mods for Shogun 2 on the Steam workshop. I just wanted an easy way to install a skill points fix without having to trudge through the sperg wasteland that is TWC It is maddening isn't it? I don't know if it is just the lack of modders or some modders just being dongs and ignoring it. I've not heard or see much since they released that kit too.
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Feb 23, 2013 18:42
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Jerusalem posted:I'm hoping for a good mixture of weird traits for Senators/Generals, just to see what bizarre mixture of personalities it might create. Like somebody who gets sent off to tame some lovely little band of pirates/outlaws, demands and gets a triumph and then spends the rest of his life as a couch-general causing trouble because he considers himself an "expert" in warfare. Yeah, I really hope they bring back some of the traits from Medieval and Rome, since some of those were utterly hilarious since the Generals in Shogun 2 just felt dull and they didn't have any personality. Pump it up! Do it! fucked around with this message at 18:58 on Feb 23, 2013 |
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Feb 23, 2013 18:51
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SeanBeansShako posted:It is maddening isn't it? I don't know if it is just the lack of modders or some modders just being dongs and ignoring it. I've not heard or see much since they released that kit too. I think it is the combo of the mod tools not having out that long and them releasing the tools so long after the game came out.
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Feb 23, 2013 18:55
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ReV VAdAUL posted:I think it is the combo of the mod tools not having out that long and them releasing the tools so long after the game came out. One of the reasons yeah, a shame really. Without dedicated modders nobody is going to figuire out how the tool works and we're stuck forever with reskins and stat tweaks with Shogun 2. Horrible. Also speaking of TWC, they changed forums hosts to a different one and now they look even more generic now.
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Feb 23, 2013 19:01
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Lord Tywin posted:
I loved this mechanic in CIV V and hope it catches on in strategy games.
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Feb 23, 2013 21:38
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SeanBeansShako posted:I really hope they keep and expand those mentioned features for the future games of the series, I still hope they will give the 18th and 19th century another go (all at once too!). I guess I'll have to wait until 2017 for that though. What I want to see is a Belisarius series mod/DLC. Basically aliens come from the future to give the Roman empire and an Indian kingdom gunpowder and the secrets of advanced technology. And then they fight. I can't speak to their quality as literature, but gameplay-wise it'd be sweet as all hell.
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Feb 23, 2013 21:46
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Is shogun 2 one of those games where "hard" means "give the AI free poo poo, free money, free units, free upkeep"? I'm getting tired of seeing all these goddamn full stacks march into my territory. If they don't have to play by the same rules as me it's loving infuriating. Not only are they full stacks they're half samurai. I have markets and saki dens in all my provinces, I'm running nothing but yashigaru economy, and I can't field stacks like loving takeda.
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Feb 23, 2013 22:14
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Krinkle posted:Is shogun 2 one of those games where "hard" means "give the AI free poo poo, free money, free units, free upkeep"? I'm getting tired of seeing all these goddamn full stacks march into my territory. If they don't have to play by the same rules as me it's loving infuriating. You have to keep in mind that making AI that can play at the same level as a human while not cheating is nigh on impossible, and really the cheating in Shogun 2 isn't that blatant until you hit very hard. There was a mod posted a little while back to fix the whole overabundance of samurai thing (the AI automatically converts ashigaru units into samurai units when you can't see the stack) -actually if someone could link it again it'd be great I've been meaning to install it too-, but the other ways the AI cheats are just to stop the game being painfully easy. And it isn't actually free for them until you hit very hard I don't think. The most significant things other than the samurai (which I agree is pretty unfun. in radious' mod especially I got so sick of having to fight endless stacks of katana samurai) are just that they get an income boost of some sort and don't have an allegiance penalty in newly conquered provinces, as far as I know. There are probably a few other things too. But it's really not that bad on hard; I've never lost a campaign in that difficulty because of the cheating, mostly just because everybody around me would hate me.
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Feb 23, 2013 22:59
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There is also a mod that gives the AI the same occupation penalties when they expand into new territory you get too. Stops those irritating over night Empires.
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Feb 24, 2013 00:50
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I just beat FOTS on Legendary as Satsuma. That was incredibly tough, I can't remember the last time I was actively nervous while playing a game. Fortunately, the Choshu were really loyal to me and managed to take ~20 provinces on the main island while I dicked around on Shikoku and Kyushu. I managed to vassalize the Tosa and they protected the southern side of the map from naval raids, leaving me to get my economy going. I didn't even have to restart! I'm now unreasonably excited for Rome 2.
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Feb 24, 2013 08:28
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God I fucking love Diablo 3 gold, it even paid for this shitty title
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ReV VAdAUL posted:I think it is the combo of the mod tools not having out that long and them releasing the tools so long after the game came out. The Total War Center modders, who tend to make the most/best mods, also seem to hate Steam with a burning passion so that might be a factor.
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Feb 24, 2013 08:36
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I saw a screencap from some MMO's forums (official or otherwise) about how Steam is the devil as well to MMO players and this one guy,  'I won't accept people in my guild who have/like Steam because all they do is buy games, spend 10 minutes on then them move onto the next thing and can't hold down a job, much less an MMO career, those undergeared fucks.' And here I thought it was only the grognard historical strategy games communities that were all anti-Steam.
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Feb 24, 2013 08:49
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Sober posted:I saw a screencap from some MMO's forums (official or otherwise) about how Steam is the devil as well to MMO players and this one guy, It's basically those without the self-awareness to realise that other people might value things differently to themselves. Which explains TWC perfectly, really.
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Feb 24, 2013 09:09
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Sober posted:I saw a screencap from some MMO's forums (official or otherwise) about how Steam is the devil as well to MMO players and this one guy, Sometimes my Dad will ring me up at 3 in the morning, drunk and sobbing, wanting to know why his son can't hold down an MMO career. 
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Feb 24, 2013 09:10
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Krinkle posted:Is shogun 2 one of those games where "hard" means "give the AI free poo poo, free money, free units, free upkeep"? Yes. Creative Assembly are notoriously lazy when it comes to AI programming and this is their response to having AI that's too dumb to compete with human players.
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Feb 24, 2013 10:56
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Lemon Curdistan posted:Yes. Creative Assembly are notoriously lazy when it comes to AI programming and this is their response to having AI that's too dumb to compete with human players. I wouldn't mind as much if they would at least make sure that the AI was subject to the ingame mechanics. I mean, sure go ahead and insta-build a barracks, and give them extra troops in a unit, but don't just raise armies out of the ground. When the AI just completely ignores things like trade or infrastructure, it's hard to take the game seriously. Even if you can't code a good computer opponent, make sure to go through the motions of justifying the cheating.
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Feb 24, 2013 11:45
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Kaal posted:I wouldn't mind as much if they would at least make sure that the AI was subject to the ingame mechanics. I mean, sure go ahead and insta-build a barracks, and give them extra troops in a unit, but don't just raise armies out of the ground. When the AI just completely ignores things like trade or infrastructure, it's hard to take the game seriously. Even if you can't code a good computer opponent, make sure to go through the motions of justifying the cheating. Oh yeah, just give me some flavour text about how my invasion has spawned the 'boss' general and his army who are marching out to fight me for the region. Freedom on a campaign map is worthless if the AI can't do anything with it, put down some railroads and as long as they're interesting and I get to keep my freedom on the battlefield I'll go with it.
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Feb 24, 2013 11:52
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Lemon Curdistan posted:Yes. Creative Assembly are notoriously lazy when it comes to AI programming and this is their response to having AI that's too dumb to compete with human players. I always feel like I am some sort of Shogun 2 fanboy when I refute this but it's really not the case on Hard. In earlier Total War series, absolutely, but in Shogun 2 the computer plays a remarkably similar game to the human player on Hard. On the hardest possible difficulty Very Hard/Legendary it's true that the computer gets a ludicrous set of bonuses, but I feel that's justifiable if you crank the difficulty right up. Selecting a difficulty called "Legendary" is really asking the computer to break out the baseball bats. On Hard the computer doesn't get any extra koku, but it pays reduced upkeep on it's units (which you can see what they pay by mousing over them, nothing hidden there, while the player pays more). It also gains the ability to recruit units in a single turn rather than 2 or 3 turns, which gives the impression of an spawned army when that is indeed not the case. It used to be able to upgrade ashigaru into samurai, but that was taken out in one of the later patches after player outcry. The reduced upkeep often lets the computer snowball it's economy fairly aggressively compared to normal, so it actually tends to be much harder (or the computer uses it to have an extra stack of samurai running around instead.) The real difficulty of playing on hard is that the computer units get bonus morale in the battle map, which means in an even matchup, your forces will lose unless you play better than the computer. This isn't exactly cripplingly difficult and it's what you would expect on a level called "Hard". The battle AI on hard will also always exploit weaknesses it sees in deployments and do so much faster than on Normal, where the AI isn't operating at full capacity and has a chance to ignore an open flank/exposed unit etc. Normal actually gives the human player bonus morale and reduces your upkeep costs relative to the computer, so it often can feel like a big jump. e: Added some more battle map AI differences.
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Feb 24, 2013 13:42
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I really wouldn't mind the dumb AI if it had at least some sense of competence. In Rome and Medieval cavalry was never used for flanking maneuvers (hell, in unpatched Medieval they would send their archers out to die and literally never move their infantry  ), in Empire the AI really liked to turn their back on you for no reason and Napoleon's AI could be resumed to making a firing line and never leave it. Once or twice they'd send their skirmishers and light cavalry out alone for a quick death. It's probably not that hard to make AI, just base their actions on the decisions MP players make during a beta testing and voila! Decent AI!
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Feb 24, 2013 18:00
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They really should have put Empire on hold for a few months and patched in a scripted AI that would just do what a player would do. Better than the Zap Brannigan-esqe tactics we see now. But what really irritates me is the fact that they were lazy with NTW and kept those dumb ETW era soldiers and their stupid coats on the NTW campaign map. You have a like hundred of Napoleonic era soldier Models. And you even change the frigging General one ugh. Hopefully though, with Shogun 2 they have learnt a lot of lessons and will be a lot less sloppy with Rome 2.
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Feb 24, 2013 18:11
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SeanBeansShako posted:They really should have put Empire on hold for a few months and patched in a scripted AI that would just do what a player would do. Better than the Zap Brannigan-esqe tactics we see now. I think there would be a bit of an outcry if they used the Shogun 2 campaign map units in the Rome 2 campaign, so I don't think you have to worry there.
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Feb 24, 2013 18:37
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Koramei posted:I think there would be a bit of an outcry if they used the Shogun 2 campaign map units in the Rome 2 campaign, so I don't think you have to worry there. Katana or Gladius? Find out next on Deadliest Warrior
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Feb 24, 2013 18:42
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As long as they learned from the multiplayer in shogun 2. They'll probably bring back the avatar campaign but hopefully they'll take the veteran system and RPG elements out and make any progression cosmetic. I just want to be able to give each unit their own war paint.
Trujillo fucked around with this message at 21:13 on Feb 24, 2013 |
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Feb 24, 2013 21:07
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Mans posted:It's probably not that hard to make AI, just base their actions on the decisions MP players make during a beta testing and voila! Decent AI! The computer now just masses all of its units into a giant ball and sends them charging directly at the opposite army, the General constantly blasting his horn the entire way 
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Feb 24, 2013 21:29
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I've gotten back into NTW recently because of March of the Eagles, and after playing the Egypt campaign again I realized that I'm hankering for something on a larger scale. I remember being excited for Empire: Total War when it first came out but I skipped it because my computer couldn't run it at the time. Apparently the initial release didn't go over so well. However, has time (and patches) helped make Empire any better, or should I just stick to NTW?
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Feb 25, 2013 04:33
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Mans posted:It's probably not that hard to make AI, just base their actions on the decisions MP players make during a beta testing and voila! Decent AI! Isn't AI considered to be probably the single hardest thing to make properly in computer programming? I mean, if it was easy, we'd probably already be shooting the poo poo with HAL.
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Feb 25, 2013 07:02
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Tomn posted:Isn't AI considered to be probably the single hardest thing to make properly in computer programming? Yeah, people often seem to miss that. The Total War AI could certainly be improved, and in Empire it was pretty inexcusable, but for most of the series it's really not that bad, all things considered. Like, the only RTS ever with AI that doesn't obviously cheat is Starcraft 2, and that was in development for like 10 years by the wealthiest game studio ever.
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Feb 25, 2013 07:09
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Tomn posted:Isn't AI considered to be probably the single hardest thing to make properly in computer programming? I just assumed the post was sarcastic, because AI programming is by far the most complicated and difficult software to write, especially when you figure in the capacity constraints that the system is under (making choices in a split second). I can not overstate how difficult AI is to program and create due to the unbelievably large phase space and the ingrained problems with fuzzy logic. If you want an idea of the scope of the problem, imagine you had to reduce a situation down to a yes or no question. The starting question is "What do I do with this swordsman unit?" Of course, this ignores the fundamental problem for a game AI, which is not to win, but to be fun to play. This complicates it immensely. It's no fun to fight an opponent who camps all the time, even if camping is the optimum choice. Of course, you want it to camp *sometimes* when an attack would be suicide, or if they are defending. But how often and when? The AI won't have the luxury of a balanced army a lot of the time, so it needs to be able to handle lopsided armies of a myriad of compositions, making any AI streamlining exceptionally difficult. It's a ludicrously difficult task because the scope is too large for perfect accuracy, so you have to make assumptions to simplify the sums, your pathfinding options are too large so you have to simplify the difficulty (climbable castle walls anyone?) and your army composition too variable to cheat on available responses (AI upgrading Ashigaru into Samurai, namely Katana so it has a melee component). If you understand the difficulties of AI programming, you really begin to see all the little changes that were made to make the AI's job easier and so it can spend less time on working out how to get around the castle wall and more time on if now is the best time for that flanking cavalry charge. With respect to the gentleman talking about Starcraft 2, it's got very little to do with the money or quality of the studio and everything to do with how easy it is to the sums. In Starcraft 2, the information available is small enough that the computer can calculate perfectly combat matchups and know if it will win or not (as it only has a dozen or so units to calculate, even the biggest matchups barely break 60) and as the battlefield is also the production arena, it can dynamically reroute production on the fly for what it needs to counter the enemy units. It's orders of magnitude smaller in scope than what the Total War AI has to do, which is why it's able to not cheat. Contrast this with Total War where if you have a cavalry heavy army and the AI has gone archer heavy, it can't just withdraw and produce some spearmen to counter, it has to try to make that army work. A Starcraft 2 AI on the other hand, can just withdraw and regroup unless you can force a matchup (In this case by being faster.).
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Feb 25, 2013 07:26
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Koramei posted:Yeah, people often seem to miss that. The Total War AI could certainly be improved, and in Empire it was pretty inexcusable, but for most of the series it's really not that bad, all things considered. Like, the only RTS ever with AI that doesn't obviously cheat is Starcraft 2, and that was in development for like 10 years by the wealthiest game studio ever. The Starcraft 2 VI actually does cheat at the "insane" difficulty level (it has 40% increased income and omniscience), and its micro abilities can become rather inhumanly quick at the "hard"/"very hard" difficulties.
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Feb 25, 2013 07:27
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Anyone else notice that this is going to be going from "pre-imperial" to "just empire" part of Rome? I think that means we will be seeing a "rise of the eagles" and "the fall of Rome" DLC expansions.
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Feb 25, 2013 15:41
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Trujillo posted:As long as they learned from the multiplayer in shogun 2. They'll probably bring back the avatar campaign but hopefully they'll take the veteran system and RPG elements out and make any progression cosmetic. I just want to be able to give each unit their own war paint. Yeah, also if they have retainers they should have them all available at start and not have bullshit like have the very best ones drop randomly.
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Feb 25, 2013 16:00
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