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Good lord the N64 port of Resident Evil 2, just remembering that train wreck brings back nightmares. The Gamecube had the same problem with ports as the N64 if at a slightly lesser degree. I remember some games like SSX had content just straight up cut out of Gamecube port because those weird proprietary disks couldn't hold the data that other versions required.
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Feb 26, 2013 21:50
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TheMammoth posted:If you had the PSX dual analog controller, you could use the controls much like any modern shooter. I worked on the PSX port and it supported the PS Mouse out of the box. It played up to four playedrs split/screen, and was sharp enough that that mode was actually really playable without confusion.
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Feb 26, 2013 21:51
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xanthan posted:Should I start the Dark Forces series with the first game or has it not aged well enough? The first game has aged pretty well in every respect except controls, which are almost but not quite mouselook and honestly kind of a pain. Depending on how much you believe in fairies you might want to wait for XL Engine to reach a point where Dark Forces is fully supported - at the moment it's playable but some features are missing and the game is not, IIRC, completable. Dark Forces II: Jedi Knight I personally feel has aged terribly and the lightsaber fights, in particular, are anti-fun. This is not a universally held opinion. Jedi Outcast and Jedi Academy are pretty modern to begin with (with all the good - sensible controls, good graphics - and bad - linear level design - that implies). Personally, I'd say play Outcast and Academy, and when XL Engine hits beta and you're jonesing for a good 2.5D FPS, play Dark Forces.
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Feb 26, 2013 21:54
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Cat Mattress posted:Also, everybody was getting CD burners at the time, whereas the stuff to create custom cartridge was a lot more obscure and expensive. Pirating a game on a CD was therefore much easier (and therefore more widespread) than cartridge piracy; even if that did exist too of course. Everybody? Not in the least. Around when the N64 was launching, CD burners had just started going under $1000 and the absolute cheapest burners you could get would run you about $400. And the discs were often still $5 to $10 each.
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Feb 26, 2013 21:55
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Humbug Scoolbus posted:I worked on the PSX port and it supported the PS Mouse out of the box. It played up to four playedrs split/screen, and was sharp enough that that mode was actually really playable without confusion.
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Feb 26, 2013 22:07
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TheMammoth posted:My guess as to some of the reason why the PS was experimented with and pushed to its limits was Sony's relative openness to 3rd party developers compared to Nintendo, which pretty tightly controlled who could make games for the N64. Sony even released the Net Yaroze (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Net_Yaroze), a console-based development kit allowing anyone to make their own PS game. So, you had way more titles, many of them admittedly pretty bad, but also some pretty spectacular in terms of what they wrung out of the system. Whereas with the N64, you pretty much had only Nintendo, Rare, and a few others doing so. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=809o4f-d4kk
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Feb 26, 2013 22:12
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xanthan posted:Should I start the Dark Forces series with the first game or has it not aged well enough? IMO Dark Forces has aged very gracefully, play it (possibly a sourceport so it plays nice with modern OS) However, I would say probably skip Jedi Knight I (Dark Forces II), it has not aged so gracefully. Awkward controls and gameplay mechanics, ugly early 3D graphics (rather than Dark Forces very stylized 2.5D graphics) and some really terrible live action cutscenes. Then on to Jedi Knight II: Jedi Outcast which was my favorite in the series, amazing controls, and then Jedi Outcast II: Jedi Academy which is not great but not bad, more of the same from Jedi Outcast. More options, less interesting story. (Apparently they're not allowed to use the number III) ToxicFrog posted:The first game has aged pretty well in every respect except controls, which are almost but not quite mouselook and honestly kind of a pain. Depending on how much you believe in fairies you might want to wait for XL Engine to reach a point where Dark Forces is fully supported - at the moment it's playable but some features are missing and the game is not, IIRC, completable. /agree Zaphod42 fucked around with this message at 22:19 on Feb 26, 2013 |
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Feb 26, 2013 22:16
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TheMammoth posted:What confuses me, though, is that I thought part of Nintendo's decision to use carts while everyone else went to CD was because they could hold more than a traditional disc at that time? This was never the case. It wasn't until the DS was released where we saw greater storage capacity in cartridges over compact discs. By then, non-handheld consoles have long moved on to DVDs. TheMammoth posted:So wasn't the music in N64 games supposed to be better? Why then are there at least a few examples, such as Q2, where the PS version actually has better sound? Depends on what you mean by "better." With regards to music, a majority of games on both systems used MIDI technology for their music and developers for both managed to make it sound fantastic with some effort: N64 Arkhangelsk Dam (Goldeney 64) The Death Marshes (Turok 2) (listen to that!) PSX Movin' (Final Fantasy VIII) Gothic Neclord (Suikoden II) Very few N64 games actually streamed music because it takes up a huge amount of space on the cartridge. Often the tracks had to be lowered in quality. Here's where the PSX has the major advantage over the N64 (and you saw that in the Quake II video up there). Still, some streaming tracks turned out pretty good despite the limitations. Gloom Keep (Quake 64) Though, often not without sounding like a low bitrate mp3 downloaded from Napster: Doom 64 theme (original) Hollow Eyes (Top Gear Overdrive) (original) As for sound effects, I find that either console has pretty good quality, depending on how much effort the developers are willing to throw in. It might be true that the N64 hardware is capable of better sound and music, but the limitation is in the storage medium, and it's about ten-fold. TheMammoth posted:Whereas with the N64, you pretty much had only Nintendo, Rare, and a few others doing so. Nintendo lost a gigantic amount of third-party developers during the N64 era (many of which they're only getting back now!). Censorship issues aside, the storage medium was not only a huge limitation technically but they were apparently very expensive to produce as well. That, and the fact that the system's devkit was supposedly a major pain to work with, is why you pretty much only see first-parties really showing off what the system can do. Sorry for the console derail, but I at least included classic FPS music and showed how much the console Doom and Quake soundtracks own 
Mak0rz fucked around with this message at 22:27 on Feb 26, 2013 |
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Feb 26, 2013 22:21
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gooby on rails posted:The PS games are probably streaming audio tracks off the CD during gameplay. It was never the case that cartridges could hold more than disks; a CD held 650MB in those days and the N64 only got up to 128MB carts at the very end of its life, with games like Conker's Bad Fur Day. Anybody who thinks CDs hold more than Cartridges, notice how almost every PS game has cutscenes, while almost 0 N64 games do. Almost everything on N64 is done in-engine; they just didn't have room for video. The PS on the other hand was using discs, which were the new sexy medium that allowed things like Myst to happen. Why did Nintendo stick to cartridges? A ) We were used to it from NES and SNES, it had that Nintendo feel. B ) less prone to scratches C ) almost 0 loading times, vs Playstation having LONG load times Arguably not a bad decision. But not having CDROM size data limits was the key reason for Square Enix jumping ship from Nintendo (All Final Fantasy games previously were on NES & SNES), they wanted to do things (See: FFVII) that couldn't be done on the N64. For a good time, go look up the early FFVII demo on the N64. Zaphod42 fucked around with this message at 22:24 on Feb 26, 2013 |
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Feb 26, 2013 22:21
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2 questions. 1. What IS Myst? I hear good things about it but I'm not sure what it is. 2. If they made a cartridge based console now how much could they actually store on each one?
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Feb 26, 2013 22:27
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Boy do I feel old now.
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Feb 26, 2013 22:30
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xanthan posted:2 questions. 1.http://lparchive.org/Myst/ 2.They make USB keys with 1TB storage now...
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Feb 26, 2013 22:32
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xanthan posted:If they made a cartridge based console now how much could they actually store on each one? You can get 32 GB SD cards real cheap nowadays so stick 2 of them together in a cartridge and now you're using 64 GB media for a console and that's a bit more storage than a dual layer blu ray disc from the PS3. Would be more costly per game manufactured then optical discs for sure. Also if price is no object, you could fill a shell the size of an N64 cartridge up with 64 gb microsdxc cards and and connectors to use them all together and get a cartridge with like 4 terabytes of storage.
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Feb 26, 2013 22:34
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xanthan posted:1. What IS Myst? I hear good things about it but I'm not sure what it is. It was one of the early video-heavy adventure games. If I'm not mistaken it actually started life as a Hypercard stack. It's not aged well, and it came from the days in adventure games before things like "solutions that make sense" really came into fashion. It's under five bucks on gog.com so at the very least if you don't like it you won't have lost much. But! If you DO like it, they made a shitload of sequels so you'll be set for a good long time. Since they're not FPSes, further questions should probably go in the Retro Gaming Megathread, however.
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Feb 26, 2013 22:35
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xanthan posted:1. What IS Myst? I hear good things about it but I'm not sure what it is. It's a legendary adventure/puzzle game that was one of the first to take advantage of a CD's capacity and integrate large amounts of video. It also looks hilariously dated today but at the time this was a revelation:  quote:2. If they made a cartridge based console now how much could they actually store on each one? About as much as you can get on a USB drive or SD card without breaking the bank (and keeping in mind that industrial-scale DVD or BD manufacturing will always be far cheaper). 3DS games range from 1 to 8 GB.
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Feb 26, 2013 22:39
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Myst is actually a little older than Doom (September '93 versus December '93, but still). Those kinds of graphics back then were mindblowing. It was the most selling PC game of all time until The Sims. It's a bizarre and stupidly difficult game, to be sure, but it was also a stunning piece of work.
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Feb 26, 2013 22:42
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xanthan posted:2 questions.  Myst was a PC game which came out when CDROMs were new, and it used them to do some really cool stuff. It actually was the top selling video game of all time until The Sims (beating Doom and others by a landslide). The whole game was pre-rendered, so it looked WAAAAY better than anything else of its time; it was like playing a cutscene. It was very limited in gameplay because you WERE playing a cutscene, but it was very well designed. Puzzle game, played in first person. A long running series which has seen over V games and a failed MMO. The question, even at its time, is how much do you want to make each cartridge cost? That's the problem with cartridges, you have to buy the hardware over again for each copy, its not an efficient way to transfer data. They could make Terabyte cartridges, but then every game would cost like $200. Or they could make cheap flashdrive cartridges but limit themselves down to a few hundred megs or whatever. Its all variable, but the problem is the variable is money, and money is something you're trying to maximize, not minimize. Consoles are generally sold at a loss, they need to profit like crazy on games. Thing is, we've effectively superceded this now because we have Hard Drives in consoles, and far more RAM. You can get the game however you want (CDROM, DVD, Internet Download, whatever), and then install it on your hard drive, Then to be loaded you stream it to RAM. This is like making temporary cartridges. Cartridges are effectively external ROM with the game burned on. The upside was that some really clever developers (like Rare) did all sorts of tricks using the cartridge as RAM memory itself to boost the N64's capabilities. gooby on rails posted:About as much as you can get on a USB drive or SD card without breaking the bank (and keeping in mind that industrial-scale DVD or BD manufacturing will always be far cheaper). 3DS games range from 1 to 8 GB. This is a good point I didn't even think about, compare the DS and 3DS to the PSP and PSP Vita and we have the N64 PS days all over again! The Nintendo Handhelds actually continue to use cartridges (flash memory), while the PSP uses those stupid UMD discs. Its the same technology, just made smaller. (In both cases). redmercer posted:It was one of the early video-heavy adventure games. If I'm not mistaken it actually started life as a Hypercard stack. It's not aged well, and it came from the days in adventure games before things like "solutions that make sense" really came into fashion. It's under five bucks on gog.com so at the very least if you don't like it you won't have lost much. But! If you DO like it, they made a shitload of sequels so you'll be set for a good long time. Since they're not FPSes, further questions should probably go in the Retro Gaming Megathread, however. The Mac version was definitely just implemented in Hypercard, which is pretty hilarious. Hey, I think it holds up pretty good! Definitely better than early 3D games of its time! But maybe I'm just touched by nostalgia. Zaphod42 fucked around with this message at 22:50 on Feb 26, 2013 |
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Feb 26, 2013 22:44
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xanthan posted:2. If they made a cartridge based console now how much could they actually store on each one? The 3ds is a handheld, but as it still uses cartridges I feel it is relevant. It has carts that range in size from 1-8 gigs. DLC and full games on the nintendo wii/wiiu can be stored on SDHC cards or any USB storage device. Basically if you made a console that didn't use discs, with modern encryption techniques you could probably get by using SDHC cards as your "cartridges" RyokoTK posted:It's a bizarre and stupidly difficult game, to be sure, but it was also a stunning piece of work. Its not even like, difficult. Its arbitrary. It expects you to right down every dumb detail about every room and try applying each one to everything that can move in any other room. Its design team either really liked hintbooks or really liked those huge conspiracy theorist walls with the string and the random letter to number cyphers proving John Lennon is the antichrist. Red_Mage fucked around with this message at 22:49 on Feb 26, 2013 |
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Feb 26, 2013 22:46
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Zaphod42 posted:Cartridges are effectively external ROM with the game burned on. The upside was that some really clever developers (like Rare) did all sorts of tricks using the cartridge as RAM memory itself to boost the N64's capabilities. They went even beyond that and started shipping entire custom-built coprocessors in the cartridges, like the SuperFX chip. The hardware in a stock Super NES cannot run Star Fox, full stop. The only way to pull it off was to build a 3D accelerator into every cartridge, so that's exactly what they did. Console development used to be worlds apart from PC games, a place where you had both the need and the ability to do crazy poo poo like this because it was fundamentally different down to the lowest level. Nowadays it's more like targeting a PC that was carefully tuned and kitted out for ultimate gaming performance in 2005 and hasn't been upgraded since.
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Feb 26, 2013 22:51
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Red_Mage posted:Its not even like, difficult. Its arbitrary. It expects you to right down every dumb detail about every room and try applying each one to everything that can move in any other room. Its design team either really liked hintbooks or really liked those huge conspiracy theorist walls with the string and the random letter to number cyphers proving John Lennon is the antichrist. I dunno man, I beat it as a kid. It was definitely challenging, but I don't agree with your saying its arbitrary and dumb It definitely did NOT have the sort of annoying "well who came up with that?" developer logic that is common in SCUMM type adventure games. I thought all the puzzles were challenging, but quite doable with absolutely no hints.That said, it was a different age, when games were lots, lots, lots harder. Getting stuck in the same area not knowing what to do for days wasn't considered a game breaking flaw, it was just a challenge. I loved thinking about the game while I was at school (This is elementary school, mind you) and then coming home and trying new things, exploring the same area from another approach. I will give you that there got to be some arbitrary puzzles in the sequels, one of the last puzzles in Riven is pretty stupid hard and almost requires you to look it up on gamefaqs or buy the guide. But Myst? Just time consuming and tricky, that's all...
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Feb 26, 2013 22:53
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gooby on rails posted:They went even beyond that and started shipping entire custom-built coprocessors in the cartridges, like the SuperFX chip. The hardware in a stock Super NES cannot run Star Fox, full stop. The only way to pull it off was to build a 3D accelerator into every cartridge, so that's exactly what they did. Well, that's way back in the SNES days. We were talking about the N64, and they didn't do that with the N64, they did what I described, which was even more clever because it didn't cost more money. But yes, the superFX chip was a thing in the SNES era. But it made every single copy of the game more expensive to make (they're essentially selling you a tiny graphics card with the game, which you can't use on other games). SNES carts are highly variable, they come in different memory sizes and there was less profit on each game sold based on how big the game was. That reminds me of the expansion slot on the N64, which I think was actually really brilliant. I was just telling some friends of mine, I really wish the Xbox 360 had an expansion slot. Its only got a pitiful 512MB RAM which is holding back literally the entire games industry right now, even PC games are held back to crazy small limits (everything is a port, or designed to be ported). The 720 and PS4 will see more RAM, but with them wanting to cut costs, there's no way they'll have "enough" in 4-5 years compared to PCs. The forward-thinking thing to do would be an expansion slot. I don't think consumers had too hard a time with "This game requires the N64 Expansion Pack", especially considering lots of games like Donkey Kong 64 were offered in a bundle with the expansion pack. (Sorry, Expansion Pak) Zaphod42 fucked around with this message at 22:57 on Feb 26, 2013 |
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Feb 26, 2013 22:53
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TheMammoth posted:If you had the PSX dual analog controller, you could use the controls much like any modern shooter. Quake 2 on the PSX was a staple with me and my friends. We would do a lot of 4 player deathmatch with the Multitap. This was all with the old PSX controllers before Analogue sticks. The game ran amazing on the PSX hardware. Now, Half Life 2 for the Playstaiton 2, that was a pile of poo poo.
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Feb 26, 2013 23:18
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hippieman posted:Quake 2 on the PSX was a staple with me and my friends. We would do a lot of 4 player deathmatch with the Multitap. This was all with the old PSX controllers before Analogue sticks. You mean Half Life 1 for PS2?  Yeah it was. It was a weird bastard offshoot. It also included the only co-op Half-Life game (Decay). I can't remember if the dreamcast version was okay or not... Oh. I guess it was never released. I bet the PS2 version was a kludge job, maybe because the dreamcast version fell through.
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Feb 26, 2013 23:25
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Zaphod42 posted:You mean Half Life 1 for PS2? Yes, yes I do. All the pervious HL2 discussion leaked into my post.
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Feb 26, 2013 23:26
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Zaphod42 posted:You mean Half Life 1 for PS2? The Dreamcast version was great, and since it supported the keyboard and mouse it was great to play too. Too bad it never got actually released to stores so the only way to play it was pirated copies of the unreleased game.
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Feb 26, 2013 23:34
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Install Gentoo posted:The Dreamcast version was great, and since it supported the keyboard and mouse it was great to play too. I don't know about Half Life on PS2, but lots of PS2 games did support USB keyboards. I feel like I did play Unreal Tournament on PS2 on keyboard once... although I can't remember if the mouse worked or not.
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Feb 26, 2013 23:38
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Apparently these are all the PS2 games that support using a mouse: Age of Empires II Armored Core 2 Armored Core 3 ATV Quad Power Racing 2 Deus Ex Dirge of Cerberus: Final Fantasy VII EverQuest Online Adventures: Frontiers Final Fantasy XI Half-Life Myst III: Exile Red Faction 2 Resident Evil 4 Resident Evil: Dead Aim Sky Odyssey Soldier of Fortune: Gold Edition Star Trek Elite Force Tokyo Xtreme Racer 3 Unreal Tournament Noticeably, that means Quake III for the PS2 didn't support it while Quake III for Dreamcast did.
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Feb 27, 2013 00:02
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Armored Core 2/3 only used it for painting emblems, too, you couldn't sue it for actual gameplay. ..I think AC2 Another Age and Silent Line: AC3 supported it too.
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Feb 27, 2013 00:10
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Red_Mage posted:Its not even like, difficult. Its arbitrary. It expects you to right down every dumb detail about every room and try applying each one to everything that can move in any other room. Its design team either really liked hintbooks or really liked those huge conspiracy theorist walls with the string and the random letter to number cyphers proving John Lennon is the antichrist.  Are you sure you're talking about Myst? One of the reasons I liked it as a kid is that it didn't pull that poo poo, in dramatic contrast to most other puzzle games of the era.
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Feb 27, 2013 00:28
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It wasn't totally illogical in the Roberta Williams "use cheesecloth with chandelier" sense, but it still expects you to learn through experimentation and with simple observation usually not telling you much. There are many places where you have to memorize a pattern or sequence in one place and use it in another. Most of the puzzles exist by tying together multiple locations and examining just one of them is baffling. You're meant to go around the islands fiddling with buttons and levers and noticing that they make various sounds or resemble various other parts of the island and put it all together to deduce that e.g. the icons on the posts surrounding the sunken model ship are constellations and you can tell which ones to press by using the list of times and dates you found somewhere else to configure the planetarium. At one point you have to replay a piece of music from memory (or paper) and some people are just innately bad at that. There's an enormous maze which is navigated in the first person with no guidance other than subtle abstract audio cues and any map you might care to draw yourself. I don't agree that it was badly designed, but it comes from an era where demanding that the player put all the effort into extracting information from the game wasn't the taboo it is today and it's not even going to put up a "you should probably start here" indicator.
haveblue fucked around with this message at 00:40 on Feb 27, 2013 |
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Feb 27, 2013 00:37
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ToxicFrog posted:
This is how I feel. gooby on rails posted:It wasn't totally illogical in the Roberta Williams "use cheesecloth with chandelier" sense, but it still expects you to learn through experimentation and with simple observation usually not telling you much. There are many places where you have to memorize a pattern or sequence in one place and use it in another. Most of the puzzles exist by tying together multiple locations and examining just one of them is baffling. You're meant to go around the islands fiddling with buttons and levers and noticing that they make various sounds or resemble various other parts of the island and put it all together to deduce that e.g. the icons on the posts surrounding the sunken model ship are constellations and you can tell which ones to press by using the list of times and dates you found somewhere else to configure the planetarium. At one point you have to replay a piece of music from memory (or paper) and some people are just innately bad at that. There's an enormous maze which is navigated in the first person with no guidance other than subtle abstract audio cues and any map you might care to draw yourself. I don't agree that it was badly designed, but it comes from an era where demanding that the player put all the effort into extracting information from the game wasn't the taboo it is today and it's not even going to put up a "you should probably start here" indicator. See, no part of that is the least bit unreasonable to me. That's a puzzle! That's a challenge! What else do you expect, a modern day FPS where you press A to win? Its a puzzle game! Writing things down, replaying music from memory, finding my way through the maze, I can remember doing each of those things (as an elementary school kid, mind you) and they were awesome. They were memorable because they were hard, but the fact that I did them as a kid with no help proves they weren't that freaking hard. Although my tone deaf family sucked at the piano puzzle and I had to do it for my dad, so I could see that one as being like The Water Temple for some people. But I loved it. Everything you mentioned to me, as a flaw, seems to explain why modern games suck. No part of Myst was "use the cheesecloth on the chandelier", everything made sense. You had to learn, you had to take notes? That's awesome! Although as I said before, Riven kinda took it too far, so I could see that as being a bit much... Hah, I guess Myst counts as first person, but we're getting off topic, definitely not a shooter. Zaphod42 fucked around with this message at 00:59 on Feb 27, 2013 |
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Feb 27, 2013 00:43
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Red_Mage posted:Its not even like, difficult. Its arbitrary. It expects you to right down every dumb detail about every room and try applying each one to everything that can move in any other room. Its design team either really liked hintbooks or really liked those huge conspiracy theorist walls with the string and the random letter to number cyphers proving John Lennon is the antichrist. That stuff was probably my greatest gaming experience when I was little. Playing these games with my dad and jotting down notes and "working together" (him solving everything and me offering crappy input since I was 7) to solve the puzzles. If I had to do it now I'd probably be infuriated. EDIT: Oh god I forgot how much Myst scared the poo poo out of me. At that point I was too familiar with games like Doom, so I was waiting for zombies to come out and I didn't have a weapon to fight them with 
Irish Taxi Driver fucked around with this message at 17:32 on Feb 27, 2013 |
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Feb 27, 2013 01:03
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A game that forces me to break out the pen & paper to jot something down is rare enough for me that it's still a fun novelty that creates a memorable experience for me, I should play Myst for myself. I only have dim memories of watching my dad click through it when I was young.
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Feb 27, 2013 01:25
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Couldn't you beat it in 10 minutes or something?
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Feb 27, 2013 01:42
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xanthan posted:Couldn't you beat it in 10 minutes or something? Under 80 seconds in game time if you know the answers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAh8F6u_dPE
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Feb 27, 2013 01:44
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What's weird is that I would just cheat-in guns and beat Myst in like 20 seconds. God mode so I could breathe underwater, too.
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Feb 27, 2013 01:45
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If you're thinking of playing Myst for the first time, or again, I urge you to consider the port RealMyst. It's a fantastic, completely faithful remake in a nice 3D engine. It looks loving fantastic and will make you remember why you loved Myst in the first place.
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Feb 27, 2013 01:49
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horse mans posted:If you're thinking of playing Myst for the first time, or again, I urge you to consider the port RealMyst. It's a fantastic, completely faithful remake in a nice 3D engine. It looks loving fantastic and will make you remember why you loved Myst in the first place. The iPad version that runs on Unity is supposedly the definitive realMyst. On a non-myst note has anyone tried Generations Arena? It seems to be a Q3A mod that is basically Samsara but for Quake. You pick a class (Doomguy, Quake Ranger, Quake 2 Ranger Wolfenstein Soldier, or Quake 3 Gladiator) and deathmatch it out with that class's weakneses and strengths.
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Feb 27, 2013 02:05
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Red_Mage posted:On a non-myst note has anyone tried Generations Arena? I know nothing about it, but this looks pretty awesome.
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Feb 27, 2013 02:30
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I remember playing Generations Arena years and years ago, it's great to see it's still alive to some extent. It's super fun.
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