Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Post
  • Reply
Sheep
Jul 24, 2003
Pretty much, yes.

As far as I know - and I'm looking at the academic year's schedule right now - none of my HS students get any sex ed classes whatsoever. Plenty of time for wacked out "jinken homeroom" classes where they tell them not to discriminate against the elderly/disabled/whatever whilst not mentioning anything about non-Japanese, though!

Edit: I have been informed that it occurs during PE class, second year, at least in the Saga boondocks. It is not required for graduation though.

Sheep fucked around with this message at 15:21 on Feb 27, 2013

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Kenishi
Nov 18, 2010
^^ It probably gets covered in a health class sometime. But it may not get taught in some areas if the PTA is pretty conservative and they force a change on curriculum.

LyonsLions posted:

I also live in not-Tokyo, and not only is there not a daycare shortage here but there are plenty of different types of childcare available, for example there are a few 24/7 drop-in daycare centers, and some of the pediatric hospitals and clinics offer sick child daycare for parents who can't take time off for a sick child.
24-hour daycare centers? Wow, that's crazy.

Bloodnose posted:

Yeah what's with Asian people not using condoms? Is sex ed just that bad here?
They get sex education in Japan, usually, but the problem is that abortion is available in most of asia and its not socially stigmatized like it is in the US. So using condoms as a pregnancy deterrent isn't "major." You also have to realize that a big reason for condom use in the US is to stem the spread of STDs. It wasn't until like the past 5-10 years that STD education became a thing in sex ed, I suspect it STILL isn't. HIV has always been viewed as an 'outside' disease--"HIV, that's something black and white people get, we no have that here!" sort of thing. And its exactly because of this mentality that Japan has seen a sharp rise in HIV infection rates.

ArchangeI
Jul 15, 2010
What i do not understand about the way Japan treats women in the workforce is that, as far as I can tell, girls are encouraged every bit as much as boys to do well in school and go to college, where they get an excellent education, only to leave the workforce a few years later or work menial jobs. That can't be good from an economic point of view, when half the education budget shows no increase in skilled workers because the people trained sit at home and wait for the kids to finish school.

Samurai Sanders
Nov 4, 2003

Pillbug

ArchangeI posted:

What i do not understand about the way Japan treats women in the workforce is that, as far as I can tell, girls are encouraged every bit as much as boys to do well in school and go to college, where they get an excellent education, only to leave the workforce a few years later or work menial jobs. That can't be good from an economic point of view, when half the education budget shows no increase in skilled workers because the people trained sit at home and wait for the kids to finish school.
Yeah, Japan has got to have the best, most expensively educated housewives in the world. But maybe it's my Western upbringing that makes me think of college as primarily being about getting a good career?

Mercury_Storm
Jun 12, 2003

*chomp chomp chomp*
Just like in the west though, girls in Japan are raised with lower expectations than boys are, and are given less leeway on whatever is considered "acceptable" behavior. They are taught, or come to realize at some point in their early years about the existence of the very low glass ceiling, and throughout their public schooling years respond to questions about what they want to be with "flight attendant" (by far the most common), or "nurse" at best. Though surprisingly, I've never heard of girls saying they "just want to be a housewife" here. It's like they're taught to be ambitious, but are subtly told one way or another to not be too ambitious.

Reverend Cheddar
Nov 6, 2005

wriggle cat is happy
Heh, you reminded me of something. A few years back I was at the American matsuri at the US Embassy and one of their live entertainment acts was Sesame Street Live. There wasn't much else to do besides drink beer and watch the show so that's what I did. The spunky female host's main issue was "what will I be when I grow up?" and so the whole show goes on for an hour or so, with Big Bird and Elmo etc trying to give her ideas (Oscar, of course, recommended she be a grouch, which I found the most amusing).

Her final decision -- and remember, this is a show targeted towards little kids -- "I want to be an elevator concierge in a big department store!" :raise:

Ardennes
May 12, 2002

Reverend Cheddar posted:

Heh, you reminded me of something. A few years back I was at the American matsuri at the US Embassy and one of their live entertainment acts was Sesame Street Live. There wasn't much else to do besides drink beer and watch the show so that's what I did. The spunky female host's main issue was "what will I be when I grow up?" and so the whole show goes on for an hour or so, with Big Bird and Elmo etc trying to give her ideas (Oscar, of course, recommended she be a grouch, which I found the most amusing).

Her final decision -- and remember, this is a show targeted towards little kids -- "I want to be an elevator concierge in a big department store!" :raise:

That is really depressing.

You know, in some ways it reminds me of Russia which also even today sights are set very low for women. In the case of Russia though, even if women become doctors or even university level instructors they are paid borderline wages and the most important thing for girls is to do is be sexy and find a man. (Which can be difficult because of pervasive alcoholism and high death rates)

I have never been to Japan, but Russia, especially towards women (as well as any type of minority to be honest) has a very pre-1960s feel to it.

How much of there is a counter-culture in Japan, not so much just music/fashion cliques (which I hear are big)?

Ernie Muppari
Aug 4, 2012

Keep this up G'Bert, and soon you won't have a pigeon to protect!

Reverend Cheddar posted:

Her final decision -- and remember, this is a show targeted towards little kids -- "I want to be an elevator concierge in a big department store!" :raise:

God that's depressing.

I'd actually be super interested in reading translations of Japanese Op-eds if anyone ever gets around to doing that.

LyonsLions
Oct 10, 2008

I'm only using 18% of my full power !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ArchangeI posted:

What i do not understand about the way Japan treats women in the workforce is that, as far as I can tell, girls are encouraged every bit as much as boys to do well in school and go to college, where they get an excellent education, only to leave the workforce a few years later or work menial jobs. That can't be good from an economic point of view, when half the education budget shows no increase in skilled workers because the people trained sit at home and wait for the kids to finish school.

This is actually the first step on the road to equality in the workforce. The same thing happened in the US in the 60's and 70's: more and more parents encouraged their daughters to get college educations and pursue careers. The workforce took another generation to catch up with that though, so there was a generation of expensively educated housewives in there.

Some of the parents I know are actively trying to steer their young daughters towards the kinds of in-demand careers that can survive a maternity leave, like pharmacy or engineering. Change is already happening on one side of the equation; unfortunately for many women the change in workplace policies will probably take another generation.

Sheep
Jul 24, 2003
New article on childcare up on JT this morning.

quote:

Mothers should remember that the responsibility of raising children lies first with each household before making “shameless” demands for more nursery schools

Deep State of Mind
Jul 30, 2006

"It was a busy day. I do not remember it all. In the morning, I thought I had lost my wallet. Then we went swimming and either overthrew a government or started a pro-American radio station. I can't really remember."
Fun Shoe
I don't know how much of this is related to Japan's situation, but in traditional Chinese (rich) families, women were expected to be educated because the burden of educating the next generation, especially sons, was on them, not fathers. At least until they were old enough to go to a Confucian academy.

Protocol 5
Sep 23, 2004

"I can't wait until cancer inevitably chokes the life out of Curt Schilling."
In Japan, education for women has historically been focused on the arts and accounting. Court women during the Heian period were expected to be poets, and lack of artistic sensibility could hamper your social standing. Samurai wives were expected not only to be a good hostess capable of entertaining guests, but also to be able to competently run family holdings while the husband was off tending to official business. They also frequently received a fair amount of military training, and were often expected to be able to organize and participate in a defense if necessary. In merchant families, women were either trained in the courtly fashion if they displayed aptitude for it, or trained in business skills otherwise. A woman who lacked both artistic accomplishment and managerial acumen was harder to marry off. Obviously, this leaves out the vast peasant class, but they rarely had any formal education, and thus had little influence on it. Mentoring of young men was done exclusively by older men, regardless of class.

Kenishi
Nov 18, 2010
^^ Be that as it may, women were still not educated in writing. Hence why court women created and used hiragana.

If you read the wikipedia on Women suffrage in Japan there's a line that states:

quote:

Of prime importance to the early Feminist Movement was the call for women’s education. Policy makers believed this was imperative to the preservation of the state, as it would prepare girls to become effective wives and mothers capable of producing diligent, patriotic sons.
This was taking place in the late 19th century during the Meiji Restoration.

Vegetable
Oct 22, 2010

Funny enough, just as I was tracking this thread, the NYT published an article yesterday on daycare centres in Japan.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/27/world/asia/japans-mothers-in-hokatsu-hunt-for-day-care.html?_r=0

quote:

At the root of the problem, women’s rights advocates say, is that working mothers now face two levels of hurdles: a new demographic trend that works against them and an old bias toward stay-at-home mothers. Like many women interviewed for this article, Ms. Okumura made most of her visits to day care centers alone because in Japan fathers generally consider finding child care to be a mother’s responsibility.

“I get asked: Is your work so important that you have to put your baby in child care? Why are you being so self-centered?” said Mariko Saito, who works for a pharmaceuticals company in Tokyo and campaigns for more day care options. “But I’m not working for myself. I’m working to support my family, just like my husband.”

When Japan set up its modern public day care system after World War II, the authorities expected it to serve people who might have nowhere else to turn, like single mothers. For a time, analysts say, that was good enough, especially as well-paid “salarymen” were able to support their families alone.

Ardennes
May 12, 2002
Basically, the social systems were never able to advance from the post-war period, where some type of emergency day-care was necessary for widows.

Gabriel Grub
Dec 18, 2004

Vegetable posted:

Funny enough, just as I was tracking this thread, the NYT published an article yesterday on daycare centres in Japan.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/27/world/asia/japans-mothers-in-hokatsu-hunt-for-day-care.html?_r=0



You might want to read the above discussion concerning this article. Daycare in most of the country is readily available, and daycare supply is increasing in Tokyo but being outstripped by demand. Daycare workers require a certain level of training and certification, but the compensation doesn't cut it in the Tokyo area making it harder to attract workers.

Many of the daycares are government subsidized, whereby industry wages are strongly influenced by government spending, which is itself disproportionately influenced by rural constituencies who currently suffer no shortages and do not care about the Tokyo Metropolitan District's problems.

It's better to look at the details of the problem, rather than relying on sweeping statements about life after the war or whatever. The LDP currently in power is certainly socially conservative and will try to promote other interests ahead getting women into the workforce, but there are a lot of forces at work and the fact that more women will be working in the future no matter what the LDP thinks is a big one.

JosefStalinator
Oct 9, 2007

Come Tbilisi if you want to live.




Grimey Drawer
Oh my, this thread's new discussion trend has reminded me of the time I spent in Japan. I worked at what was basically a big orphanage/daycare center for kids who either lost their parents due to them dying or running off overseas, abused them, or had parents that were so poor they couldn't afford them.

There's actually a huge network of Aijien (children's homes) that take up some of the burden of childcare for very poor families. I honestly never did quite figure out what exactly most of these kids were in the home for - some were obviously orphans or abused, but many had parents or other relatives come to visit frequently, and many even were given generous gifts (PSP's, etc) despite living 24/7 at the aijien.

I also saw the sexism first hand - the office secretaries were all women, the more janitorial/security people all men. The men did much less work for what I assume was much more pay, basically only doing the heavy lifting and leaving the vast majority of the child care, cleaning, cooking, and other assorted things to the women while they got drunk. Keep in mind this was in rural Kyushu though, so it may have been a bit worse than places such as Tokyo.

If anyone has any specific questions I can answer them, but my limited Japanese meant that I often failed in my attempts to learn more about the children's situation and the system as a whole.

Pompous Rhombus
Mar 11, 2007

Sheep posted:

Edit: I have been informed that it occurs during PE class, second year, at least in the Saga boondocks. It is not required for graduation though.

Woo, go Saga! There are a couple HIV awareness posters with condoms up around at least one of my schools (the overtly low-level one).

I am making GBS threads myself laughing imagining one of the PE teachers at that school teaching sex-ed. He used to be the #5 ranked sumo wrestler in Japan and has a voice like a foghorn. Love that dude.

Mercury_Storm posted:

Just like in the west though, girls in Japan are raised with lower expectations than boys are, and are given less leeway on whatever is considered "acceptable" behavior. They are taught, or come to realize at some point in their early years about the existence of the very low glass ceiling, and throughout their public schooling years respond to questions about what they want to be with "flight attendant" (by far the most common), or "nurse" at best. Though surprisingly, I've never heard of girls saying they "just want to be a housewife" here. It's like they're taught to be ambitious, but are subtly told one way or another to not be too ambitious.

I was marking the "My hopes for the future" essays of my graduating third years a few weeks ago and there was at least one who was straight up shooting for "housewife married to a rich guy" (although she wanted to open a bar if the guy was rich enough to support that). To my surprise though, I think it was the boys who mentioned domestic stuff more (wanting to be a good husband/father). Probably with the girls it's just sort of assumed...

I'm not about to post students' work online (even without names), but a lot of the essays were really :3: and :kiddo: and I transcribed my favorite ones into a text file for a pick-me-up whenever I'm feeling pissed off at Japan or the world in general.

Pompous Rhombus fucked around with this message at 14:24 on Feb 28, 2013

Sheep
Jul 24, 2003
The top five for my students was housewife, hostess, nurse, teacher, flight attendant, in that order. Such ambition for one of the top schools in the prefecture.

pentyne
Nov 7, 2012

Sheep posted:

The top five for my students was housewife, hostess, nurse, teacher, flight attendant, in that order. Such ambition for one of the top schools in the prefecture.

I thought hostess was more or less prostitution. Is there some glamour to flirting and making salarymen buy you drinks and presents before having to retire at 30?

Deep State of Mind
Jul 30, 2006

"It was a busy day. I do not remember it all. In the morning, I thought I had lost my wallet. Then we went swimming and either overthrew a government or started a pro-American radio station. I can't really remember."
Fun Shoe
Flight attendant is a big aspiration in China because it's seen as the gateway to marriage with rich and powerful men, since conversely it is a status symbol for a man to marry a flight attendant. I don't know if there's anything similar in Japan.

Kenishi
Nov 18, 2010

Sheep posted:

The top five for my students was housewife, hostess, nurse, teacher, flight attendant, in that order. Such ambition for one of the top schools in the prefecture.
This makes me want to throttle someone. I'm sure the guys aren't any better. This country really really needs to start pushing "make your own business" as a thing. I imagine most guys don't have aspirations to go out and make something innovative or to make a start-up that does something. This is one of many things killing Japan.

Reverend Cheddar
Nov 6, 2005

wriggle cat is happy

Kenishi posted:

This makes me want to throttle someone. I'm sure the guys aren't any better. This country really really needs to start pushing "make your own business" as a thing. I imagine most guys don't have aspirations to go out and make something innovative or to make a start-up that does something. This is one of many things killing Japan.

Tomoko Namba, the founder of DeNA (and a woman to boot! I think she's Japan's sole woman billionaire), wrote a great article about venture capital and start-ups in Japan. Lots to talk about risk. Wonder if I've still got it..

Samurai Sanders
Nov 4, 2003

Pillbug

pentyne posted:

I thought hostess was more or less prostitution. Is there some glamour to flirting and making salarymen buy you drinks and presents before having to retire at 30?
Not that kind of hostess silly.

edit: wait it IS that kind of hostess??

Samurai Sanders fucked around with this message at 20:04 on Feb 28, 2013

Reverend Cheddar
Nov 6, 2005

wriggle cat is happy

pentyne posted:

I thought hostess was more or less prostitution. Is there some glamour to flirting and making salarymen buy you drinks and presents before having to retire at 30?

You sure you wanna ask that? The rabbit hole goes deep, my friend.



Koakuma-Ageha's the first mag I thought of when I thought of hostess fashion. It is targeted towards 10-20 year old girls, with content for and by hostesses, and often features famous cabaret 'princesses' as their models. The current cover model, Sakurai Rina, isn't one, but there've been many in the past. Freely available in any bookstore and most convenience stores throughout Japan. And lest you think that only hostesses buy it, they've included that freebie leather pouch so that girls will actually buy the magazine instead of just standing and reading it in the store (pretty much all girls' magazines do this now, in a desperate bid to fight off the trends of both stand-and-read and electronic/Internet content).

If you're thinking that beyond a certain point, these girls think "I think I'm getting a little old for this young hostess look," well I have good news!



For the late-twenties to thirties group, yes, they have their very own target magazine too! See that big pink text at the bottom? "Don't be scared of getting old!"
I believe there's even a magazine targeted towards young mothers who still want the hostess look even though, y'know, they're supposed to have donned their mom-aprons by then.

I almost think in a kind of cynical amusement that American marketers don't have poo poo on Japanese ones sometimes. For every lifestyle you can imagine you have magazines, guides, talk shows, books, radio programs, and of course your own peers to create it, reinforce it and make it glamorous. This is a big part of the reason why street style got so huge in Harajuku fifteen-ish years back; it was awesome precisely because it was people thinking on their own and wearing whatever the hell they wanted. So what did magazines do? Create street style magazines and feature 'dokumo' models (girls who aren't actually models but get snapped so many times on the street because of their style). They could make Hello Kitty shaped air and have people lining the block for a week to buy it.

Sheep
Jul 24, 2003

Kenishi posted:

This makes me want to throttle someone. I'm sure the guys aren't any better. This country really really needs to start pushing "make your own business" as a thing. I imagine most guys don't have aspirations to go out and make something innovative or to make a start-up that does something. This is one of many things killing Japan.

Unthinkable. Bucking the status quo would push out the keiretsu and the old boys' club isn't having any of that. Just look at what happened to Takafumi Horie. Couple that with the innate fear of change that seems to exist here and you've got perpetual stagnation unless foreign pressure is applied, which is pretty well defines Japan.

Everything about the place screams 'by rich old men for rich old men' sometimes and I really don't see that changing any time soon. I figure they'll take the place down with them if they have to.

pentyne posted:

I thought hostess was more or less prostitution. Is there some glamour to flirting and making salarymen buy you drinks and presents before having to retire at 30?

It can be, but it's (theoretically) just flirting with men twice your age and pouring their drinks and lighting their smokes and letting them hit on you and acting like it's working. Basically professional ego massage, so it's actually one of the higher earning jobs for women who don't have PhDs, especially right out of college. 30man a month letting dudes hit on you for six hours a night, no training or education needed, versus 18 man a month doing 12 hour days 6 days a week at some company that requires a university degree? Of course hostessing looks attractive. It's even got upward mobility, if you're good at it you can become the mamasan of some snack bar and make a bit more money once you've hit 30 and can't compete with the younger girls, plus with the societal insistence that women get married before 25/26 why bother going to uni at all if you can make decent money for a few years then get some guy to marry you?

It makes sense when you think about it from a Japanese woman's point of view.

Samurai Sanders posted:

Not that kind of hostess silly.

edit: wait it IS that kind of hostess??
Yes.

Also for another talking point, let's throw this out there:

quote:

Half the nation's talent is squandered. Only 8% of managers are female, compared with around 40% in America and about 20% in China. There are more women on corporate boards in Kuwait than Tokyo. Women are paid 60-70% as much as their male counterparts. A manager at one of Japan's biggest conglomerates says that 70% of qualified job applicants are women, but fewer than 10% of new hires are, since the work may entail visits to factories or mines, where they might perspire in an unladylike way. Kirin, a brewer, seeks to double the number of its female managers by 2015—to a mere 6% of the total.
Let that sink in for a moment, then go read the article. It's chock full of mind-shattering statistics that will make you want to strangle someone.

Sheep fucked around with this message at 22:32 on Feb 28, 2013

Kenishi
Nov 18, 2010

quote:

There are more women on corporate boards in Kuwait than Tokyo.
:catstare:

I think the second thing in that article that made me stop and go wow was the GDP graph which hasn't moved. at. all. I read it and know it to be true but seeing in a graph like that...:geno:

(US GDP looks a lot like China's too for comparison)

Sheep
Jul 24, 2003
It really is crazy to think that the GDP peaked almost 20 years ago. Think of all that's changed in that time period - arguably one of the strongest periods of technological advancement in human history.

pentyne
Nov 7, 2012

Kenishi posted:

:catstare:

I think the second thing in that article that made me stop and go wow was the GDP graph which hasn't moved. at. all. I read it and know it to be true but seeing in a graph like that...:geno:

(US GDP looks a lot like China's too for comparison)

Everyone of those statistics and data make me think Japan is eventually going to be left in the dust by 2050 and relegated to non-consequential status.

Kenishi
Nov 18, 2010

Sheep posted:

It really is crazy to think that the GDP peaked almost 20 years ago. Think of all that's changed in that time period - arguably one of the strongest periods of technological advancement in human history.
I think the thing I find even more horrifying or :smithicide: is the fact that the echo chamber is so bad they can't figure out how to fix it. Its the only thing that makes sense to me short of just claiming that everyone at the top just has a "gently caress you, got mine." mentality which I'm sure it does.
They've spent that past 20 years going "Hey guys, our economy has a problem, we should do something about it." All we've gotten is more inward-think, fiscal stimulus that hasn't done crap, and other idle speculation about what will save them from themselves (like making English "more important" than Japanese).

Do you think maybe whats happened is that the scaffolding that helped maintain the country and progress it, so as not to become a communist country, has suddenly disappeared because that threat is ridiculous in this century? Consider this, if Japan's economy had peaked and collapsed 20 years before it did due to social pressures, do you think the West/US would have stepped in and been like 'You guys need to fix this by blah blah...'?

Sheep
Jul 24, 2003
There is a very, very definite "gently caress you, got mine" mentality up top here, both in business and in politics. Parliamentary seats, for one, are practically hereditary now, and the amount of money those guys make is insane - go look around Aso's hometown and see all the Aso ____ hospitals and what have you, it's unreal. I really like the concept of a parliamentary democracy but Japan is a pretty good example of how not to do it, I think.

The economic stagnation I think is a dual problem - the LDP is so entrenched, corrupt, and subject to lobbyists that there's no way they'll shake the status quo if it would affect their pockets or those of their backers, and I really don't think they genuinely have much concern about how the future generations are going to pay for their mistakes. On the other hand, the DPJ and the other scattered parties aren't much better but at least they aren't so blatant about it all. Fundamentally though, nobody wants to ruffle the feathers of the voter base - old people - which is exactly what needs to be done if things are actually going to improve.

Had Japan peaked and collapsed in the early 70s instead of early 90s I absolutely think America would have stepped in, because our interests in Asia were much closer then - the Vietnam war, Korea was still fresh, Taiwan issues heating up, containing Communism, etc - than now, especially since if nothing else we can rely on Japan, South Korea, and the SE Asian nations to, at the very least, rattle sabres at China and make an attempt at standing up to them, which is realistically our only real concern in East Asia at the moment. I don't see the DPRK collapsing any time soon and even if it did that's pretty much the ROK's problem anyways, not ours. Also we controlled Okinawa until like '76 so that would play into it as wall.

America still has a vested interest in Japan and all that but it's not like our sole bastion of hope/power/whatever like it was back then. Lots of other Asian nations are coming into their own which means that Japan, though still important, isn't nearly as important as it was back then.

I dunno, doing much other than pointing out poo poo I think is totally broken about Japan I'm not much qualified to really speak about it other than to offer my opinion. I've got Kissinger's tome on Diplomacy but haven't had a chance to read through it yet. This being D&D, though, I'm sure someone else has read it and will be able to offer a better answer.

Sheep fucked around with this message at 03:05 on Mar 1, 2013

Ardennes
May 12, 2002
Our economic and political strategy in East Asia for most of the post-war period war about containing communism, and rebuilding Japan and then Korea (as well as Taiwan) was a integral part of that strategy. Admittedly part of that compromise at the end of the war is that Japan culturally and in many ways socially wouldn't change but at least politically and militarily in a formal sense it would. That said, it isn't exactly like the US has been much of a bastion of civil and human rights...pretty much ever.

I think the US would be worried if Japan suddenly collapsed in itself, but the slow stagnation Japan is suffering from isn't important enough to worry about in a geo-political sense. Honestly, I don't think anything can really change Japan unless there is a real militant shift in young people but due to demographics that probably won't happen.

I think Japan will slowly but surely come under great pressure from both China militarily, demographically and from higher energy prices. Ultimately, I think at some point there will be a return to militarism when all other options are taken off the table.

That said, China itself has major problems itself and they may be too concentrated on internal disorder to really do more than saber-rattle.

Badger of Basra
Jul 26, 2007

Kenishi posted:

I think the thing I find even more horrifying or :smithicide: is the fact that the echo chamber is so bad they can't figure out how to fix it. Its the only thing that makes sense to me short of just claiming that everyone at the top just has a "gently caress you, got mine." mentality which I'm sure it does.
They've spent that past 20 years going "Hey guys, our economy has a problem, we should do something about it." All we've gotten is more inward-think, fiscal stimulus that hasn't done crap, and other idle speculation about what will save them from themselves (like making English "more important" than Japanese).

Do you think maybe whats happened is that the scaffolding that helped maintain the country and progress it, so as not to become a communist country, has suddenly disappeared because that threat is ridiculous in this century? Consider this, if Japan's economy had peaked and collapsed 20 years before it did due to social pressures, do you think the West/US would have stepped in and been like 'You guys need to fix this by blah blah...'?

I thought the main problem was the Bank of Japan refusing to expand the money supply? I've read somewhere that it's a case of central bank independence gone wrong.

Has Japan had any hyperinflation crisis in the past to make it scared of inflation?

dtb
Feb 1, 2011

I like to traveling world and take pictures of.
The powerful people tend to be the older people. Deflation isn't a bad thing if you're holding piles of cash, such as the old people are.
I don't think it's because of some bad experience people are afraid of inflation, it's because the powers that be stand to gain more from marginal deflation without risk where as investments to counter inflation have inherit risk.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/02/world/asia/strong-yen-is-reinforced-by-japans-generation-gap.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

quote:

“Japan’s tolerance of the strong yen and deflation is rooted in a clash of generations,” said Yutaka Harada, a professor of political science and economics at Waseda University in Tokyo. “And for now, the seniors are winning.”

... "gently caress you, I got mine" indeed.

Kenishi
Nov 18, 2010
They may have wanted them to change militarily and politically, but they also wanted to Westernize them more. They were already on that road with the Meiji restoration so it wasn't like they needed to push too hard. I still can't help but wonder they collapsed 20 years prior that the US would take a look at the way business is set up and the stagnation in the creation of new industry and been like "Maybe you should make building new businesses and raising wages a cornerstone of your economic policy." (Of course that would have came after they had been stagnate for like 5-7 years)

I'm not really sure whats going to happen to Japan. They'll be struggling with health core costs and labor force well before 2050, but I think the true effect will be seen when the current parents can't support their kids any more either because they are dead or for other reasons. I just looked though and seems like freeters have been on the decline for past few years. Their numbers were higher in 2001.

I can't see what militarizing Japan would do. I'm still of the mind that the main reason behind it is that there must be lobbyists pushing for it because it means larger defense budgets. But I can't see Japan building up an army of their own making in this era. They'll be playing catch up with Lockheed and Boeing. So really all militarizing would do is line the pockets of the politicians with favors and money (nothing new). Maybe they might be able to do what the US has done with the military and turn it into a government work program, but I have no idea what Japan's current SDF recruiting policy looks like.


Badger of Basra posted:

I thought the main problem was the Bank of Japan refusing to expand the money supply? I've read somewhere that it's a case of central bank independence gone wrong.

Has Japan had any hyperinflation crisis in the past to make it scared of inflation?
Its hard to get a good fix on since most of the economic blogs I run across that talk about the whole situation tend to be libertarian nutsos who are freaking out over another country printing their way out something.

Japan has never had a hyperinflation crisis in the past 100 years. They've had periods of high inflation which resulted in a highly devalued currency, but it doesn't even come close to reflecting situations that been seen in places like Argentina. Inflation isn't inherently bad. Its only bad when its not tied to any rise in capital. My take on this is that they are trying to raise inflation but haven't been interested in raising salaries. Everything that I've read about "abenomics" has come off sounding like its more pandering to the financial industry. No one is likely to see their salary/wages go up because of all this money printing and I think we'll see prices rise and spending fall as a result.

"Abenomics - Wiki posted:

The detailed policies includes inflation targeting at a 2% annual rate, correction of the excessive yen appreciation, setting negative interest rates, radical quantitative easing, expansion of public investment, buying operations of construction bonds by Bank of Japan (BOJ), and revision of the Bank of Japan Act.[1]
(I hadn't heard the construction bonds thing. Are they seriously thinking they can do what they did in the 70-80s again? Build Baby BUILD!)

Reverend Cheddar
Nov 6, 2005

wriggle cat is happy
Heh, makes me think of Hurricane Sandy and that gazebo on the Jersey Turnpike that everyone was rooting for to stay up, if Sandy were made up of Schumpeter's gales of creative destruction and Japan was the little gazebo that could.

Anyway, Japan has pretty much always had interest rates so low a slug could jump over them. Add onto that the incredibly risky loans they gave out that had little to no return and boom, asset bubble burst. If any of you are interested in a good behind-the-scenes look at just how ridiculous Japan was during this time, check out Gillian Tett's Saving the Sun. It's focused on what was going on behind the scenes in Japan specifically so she's kinda mum about the mistakes made on the Western side, but if you're the least bit knowledgeable about finance some of the stuff they were doing will make your eyes pop.

I am trying to translate some op/eds from Nikkei Business about Abenomics, though it's going slow cause I have a translation class to plow through first. Hopefully I can get up one part this weekend.

Sheep
Jul 24, 2003

Kenishi posted:

(I hadn't heard the construction bonds thing. Are they seriously thinking they can do what they did in the 70-80s again? Build Baby BUILD!)

Read Philip Brasor's blog on housing in Japan, it's really informative. One thing you can take away from it is that the government is perpetually banking on housing (and construction) to save the economy, and with less people, that's just not going to be feasible for much longer. He posted a source citing that something like 20% of residences in the entire country were unoccupied. And yet they're still building shittons of condos. That's why it's actually in the government's interest for house prices to go into freefall the second they're bought, and to be pretty much worthless after 10-30 years, which is pretty contrary to the western way of thinking where a house is an investment.

Also bonus points for construction companies having deep ties to yakuza, so you get the usual politicians and literal criminals in bed together.

Kenishi posted:

My take on this is that they are trying to raise inflation but haven't been interested in raising salaries.

The best part of the strong yen being at like 75 yen to the dollar was that consumer prices didn't budge an inch, despite the fact that so much stuff is imported, and importers were able to buy so much more product with their yen. People were making money (notably expats sending shittons of money home) but the average Japanese person sure as hell wasn't seeing much of a benefit.

The only people it should have been (and was) bad for were exporters, but it wound up sucking for pretty much everyone.

Sheep fucked around with this message at 07:09 on Mar 1, 2013

Kenishi
Nov 18, 2010
About 2 pages back there was a comment about organ donors in Japan and the non-existence of it.

Today this pamphlet was handed out at my school.



Sheep
Jul 24, 2003
I just don't get the obsession with comparing Japan to America. The countries literally could not be more different - to start with, America has three times the population, so those participant disparities (though still incredibly huge) aren't quite as large as they look to be.

Ask any European in Japan how often they're asked about America if you want to hear a well-founded rant.

Anyways big ups on your school for even dispensing literature like that. I've never seen anything about organ donation here and I'm approaching year 7 quickly.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Samurai Sanders
Nov 4, 2003

Pillbug
Well, Japan and the US are joined at the hip both economically and militarily, so I guess the comparisons are unavoidable.

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply