p-lang thread: (now (have you (problems two)))

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Serious Hardware/Software Crap > YOSPOS > p-lang thread: (now (have you (problems two)))

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PleasingFungus: Oct 10, 2012; idiot asshole bitch who should fuck off

spongeh posted:

http://ashkenas.com/literate-coffeescript/

ahhaahhhahaah

has this guy just re-invented comment blocks?

idgi

# ? Mar 1, 2013 05:28

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# ? Jun 10, 2024 23:36

Catalyst-proof: May 11, 2011; better waste some time with you

spongeh posted:

http://ashkenas.com/literate-coffeescript/

ahhaahhhahaah

a) if you can't think of a single loving funny thing to say about a link don't post it
b) who cares, literate programming is fine, it's one of the reasons org-mode in emacs is so loving awesome

# ? Mar 1, 2013 05:29

PENETRATION TESTS: Dec 26, 2011; built upon dope and vice

Jonny 290 posted:

i dont totally get why the overloading thing is such a thing

is it really that useful? i mean i get the ideas of simple indicators of complex things like vector multiplies, and why it'd be easy to work with, but how often is it really used

i guess it's used for implementing smart pointers in c++? but mostly i care because a bunch of poo poo like

C++ code:

cblas_daxpy(nk*nz, alpha, X, 1, Y, 1);

is way worse than

C++ code:

y += alpha * x

# ? Mar 1, 2013 05:47

Progressive JPEG: Feb 19, 2003

That thing from 2 or 3 pages ago posted:

See, Microsoft very intentionally (and very successfully) created .NET to be as different as possible from everything else out there

lol what

yes nothing like "a better java" at all

wondering if this guy's worries have been driven by employees that are unable to learn new tools

# ? Mar 1, 2013 05:53

Gazpacho: Jun 18, 2004; by Fluffdaddy; Slippery Tilde

as someone who proudly shuns interaction with microsoft technologists, allow me to point out

# ? Mar 1, 2013 05:55

Blotto Skorzany: Nov 7, 2008; He's a PSoC, loose and runnin'
came the whisper from each lip
And he's here to do some business with
the bad ADC on his chip
bad ADC on his chiiiiip

horse mans posted:

b) who cares, literate programming is fine, it's one of the reasons org-mode in emacs is so loving awesome

i don't believe there's any software written using literate programming besides tex

# ? Mar 1, 2013 06:20

rotor: Jun 11, 2001; classic case of pineapple on pizzadog derangement syndrome

Otto Skorzeny posted:

i don't believe there's any software written using literate programming besides tex

thats because the idea of literate programming is stupid

# ? Mar 1, 2013 07:17

FamDav: Mar 29, 2008

rotor posted:

"augh typing is so hard I hate it!. I'm not writing a novel here!" - why people love operator overloading

guy steele advocated for the addition of operator overloading in java in the late 90s, as well as datatypes that would act like primitives.

the question is how much should one be able to grow a language in a seamless way.

# ? Mar 1, 2013 07:42

rotor: Jun 11, 2001; classic case of pineapple on pizzadog derangement syndrome

the question is who the gently caress cares, just write an add() method and be done with it

# ? Mar 1, 2013 07:46

tef: May 30, 2004; -> some l-system crap ->

seriously a lot of god drat awful opinions about teaching programming

here's the loving thing. it's like you want to teach people how to write by forcing them to learn how to typeset in hotmetal instead of giving them crayons.

it's like you think the only way to learn how to be a programmer is to teach them everything you know now upfront. education driven by nostalgia, hindsight and regret. you are bad people.

for fucks sake, I know you all hate your jobs but you don't have to take it out on people who want to make the computer do fun and stupid things, rather than learn about intel registers, segfaults and backwards poo poo.

if they can't do something fun and immediate with the code, they're not learning, they're suffering.

you prescriptive bastards can just gently caress right off. i'm sorry that the people after their first week won't be able to write enterprise middleware, or device drivers, but, christ.

ugh I leave this thread and look at it.

# ? Mar 1, 2013 08:11

Carthag Tuek: Oct 15, 2005; Tider skal komme,
tider skal henrulle,
sl�gt skal f�lge sl�gters gang

thats wehy i said basic

just let them do GOB'S PROGRAM Y/N and then expand on that

# ? Mar 1, 2013 08:13

rotor: Jun 11, 2001; classic case of pineapple on pizzadog derangement syndrome

tef posted:

if they can't do something fun and immediate with the code, they're not learning, they're suffering.

it can be both.

# ? Mar 1, 2013 08:14

rotor: Jun 11, 2001; classic case of pineapple on pizzadog derangement syndrome

if someone wants to make the computer do fun and stupid things, that's great, there are a wide variety of things they can do here in these our modern times.

but we're talking (or at least I was talking) about cs101 courses.

if we're talking on teaching 8th graders, then you're right.

# ? Mar 1, 2013 08:17

double sulk: Jul 2, 2010

tef posted:

for fucks sake, I know you all hate your jobs but you don't have to take it out on people who want to make the computer do fun and stupid things, rather than learn about intel registers, segfaults and backwards poo poo.

the problem with this in the US is that this idea works great in theory until people have to learn stuff that matters, simply can't cut it, and are already out thousands and thousands of dollars because the courses they were in dicked around with python scripts instead of using a "real" language

going to medical school isn't fun, but people do it because it's loving hard/pays well/is important for the future, so why shouldn't the same be expected of CS students? college isn't about doing fun poo poo, it's about learning poo poo with the intention to utilize it to earn a good salary

rotor posted:

if someone wants to make the computer do fun and stupid things, that's great, there are a wide variety of things they can do here in these our modern times.

but we're talking (or at least I was talking) about cs101 courses.

if we're talking on teaching 8th graders, then you're right.

pretty much this. if you want people to be able to do poo poo that's strictly python or web dev or whatever, there should be more emphasis on the differences between software engineering and computer science degrees, because it's a large part of why people come out of school and can't do poo poo because CS programs do not teach you how to write applications.

# ? Mar 1, 2013 08:23

tef: May 30, 2004; -> some l-system crap ->

Mr Dog posted:

teaching things from first principles isn't a controversial idea

lol

right class, we're going to teach you mathematics, but first, before we add 2+2 we have to learn category theory.

Mr Dog posted:

This is a very powerful thing because it makes the standard library look like convenient shorthand instead of black magic.

yep, in the same way most programmers need to understand how intel chips take your assembly and then do crazy poo poo behind the scenes. who gives a gently caress if someone manages to write a program without totally sperging about the details. abstraction is just a series of convenient lies.

the thing about black magic, is that's how people loving learn. you approximate, you fudge, you use words without knowing the full context, etymology or derivation, and we get along just fine. you can't demand that people learn how to program from the flipflops up, even if your crazy sperg brain can only see that way

seriously, the only thing I want to beat into you guys, that how you learn is not how everyone else should learn, what you think is important is not what they think is important. get over it, other people have different problems they want to solve.

really all you show when you prescribe a package of suffering for learning is project your regret. you say 'we should teach this way' and mean 'i wish I learned in this order'.

# ? Mar 1, 2013 08:27

tef: May 30, 2004; -> some l-system crap ->

rotor posted:

if someone wants to make the computer do fun and stupid things, that's great, there are a wide variety of things they can do here in these our modern times.

but we're talking (or at least I was talking) about cs101 courses.

if we're talking on teaching 8th graders, then you're right.

yeah when I hear "how do we teach programming" I mean, to actual people

rather than "what should a computer science course start with"

# ? Mar 1, 2013 08:29

rotor: Jun 11, 2001; classic case of pineapple on pizzadog derangement syndrome

tef posted:

seriously, the only thing I want to beat into you guys, that how you learn is not how everyone else should learn, what you think is important is not what they think is important. get over it, other people have different problems they want to solve.

yeah everyone's a unique snowflake but you know what? im not writing a new lesson plan for every fuckstick who walks in the door. you want someone to teach you programming, get in loving line. otherwise go off and do whatever you wanna do, poo poo's not that hard.

# ? Mar 1, 2013 08:30

rotor: Jun 11, 2001; classic case of pineapple on pizzadog derangement syndrome

tef posted:

yeah when I hear "how do we teach programming" I mean, to actual people

define actual person

# ? Mar 1, 2013 08:31

Star War Sex Parrot: Oct 2, 2003

my gf was required to take 1 programming course for her engineering degree, and it was C

I'm sure learning how to tokenize c strings will be useful some day?

what a loving waste of time

# ? Mar 1, 2013 08:33

tef: May 30, 2004; -> some l-system crap ->

gucci void main posted:

going to medical school isn't fun, but people do it because it's loving hard/pays well/is important for the future, so why shouldn't the same be expected of CS students? college isn't about doing fun poo poo, it's about learning poo poo with the intention to utilize it to earn a good salary

or: no-one should learn first aid because real medicine is hard.

maybe am I the only who thinks that maybe learning to code even a little might help people use computers effectively, even if it's just simple automation or scripting.

rather than just teaching monks how to illuminate scripts

# ? Mar 1, 2013 08:34

rotor: Jun 11, 2001; classic case of pineapple on pizzadog derangement syndrome

Star War Sex Parrot posted:

my gf was required to take 1 programming course for her engineering degree, and it was C

I'm sure learning how to tokenize c strings will be useful some day?

what a loving waste of time

i had the same experience with differential equations

# ? Mar 1, 2013 08:34

tef: May 30, 2004; -> some l-system crap ->

rotor posted:

define actual person

anyone who doesn't post in this thread

# ? Mar 1, 2013 08:34

rotor: Jun 11, 2001; classic case of pineapple on pizzadog derangement syndrome

but you dont hear me bitching about it online by proxy

# ? Mar 1, 2013 08:34

rotor: Jun 11, 2001; classic case of pineapple on pizzadog derangement syndrome

tef posted:

anyone who doesn't post in this thread

i texted u btw

# ? Mar 1, 2013 08:35

tef: May 30, 2004; -> some l-system crap ->

rotor posted:

yeah everyone's a unique snowflake but you know what? im not writing a new lesson plan for every fuckstick who walks in the door. you want someone to teach you programming, get in loving line. otherwise go off and do whatever you wanna do, poo poo's not that hard.

it is not that everyone is a snowflake, but frankly, people in this thread are beyond outliers. it is not to the extent of customize the course around each individual, but: there is a world outside of your head, and take other people into account.

# ? Mar 1, 2013 08:36

tef: May 30, 2004; -> some l-system crap ->

rotor posted:

i had the same experience with differential equations

me too

# ? Mar 1, 2013 08:36

tef: May 30, 2004; -> some l-system crap ->

rotor posted:

i texted u btw

i got it

i will bug you about lunching next week

tomorrow i'm going to the internet archive for lunch

# ? Mar 1, 2013 08:41

Suspicious Dish: Sep 24, 2011; 2020 is the year of linux on the desktop, bro; Fun Shoe

oh hey cool i can start reading this thread again

# ? Mar 1, 2013 08:44

Toady: Jan 12, 2009

gently caress coffeescript, moonscript

# ? Mar 1, 2013 08:46

rotor: Jun 11, 2001; classic case of pineapple on pizzadog derangement syndrome

Toady posted:

gently caress coffeescript

# ? Mar 1, 2013 08:50

tef: May 30, 2004; -> some l-system crap ->

aside: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/10057671/how-foreach-actually-works/

:psyboom:

# ? Mar 1, 2013 09:00

Cybernetic Vermin: Apr 18, 2005

Star War Sex Parrot posted:

my gf was required to take 1 programming course for her engineering degree, and it was C

I'm sure learning how to tokenize c strings will be useful some day?

what a loving waste of time

the c course is for engineering majors here as well, but the fact that they are engineering majors is enough of a reason to avoid focusing on strings, the very first three labs they do are:

write a program that reads a number (use gets or whatever we don't care now) and determines if it has a prime factor other than 2, 3, or 5.
write a menu-driven yatzee-game, you are given a list of functions into which the solution must be broken (e.g. int throwDice(int numberOfDice) etc.)
your program is given an input file of the following form ... (gives height, width, four float temperatures and a tolerance), compute the temperature distribution on a rectangular plate in a vacuum where each the north edge is fixed to the first temperature, the east to the second, etc. by computing the temperature spreading across the plate in a height*width grid, run the simulation until the total grid change in one iteration is less than tolerance. Dynamic memory management, using structs, and proper use of functions is now required.
(more here but now they are getting annoying to type out)

making the labs even artificially related to their field of study is a really good start in inspiring students a bit. c has worked out better than i expected, though extremely hard to diagnose errors, like memory corruption, is still too big an issue for it to be quite worth it.

# ? Mar 1, 2013 09:26

FamDav: Mar 29, 2008

tef posted:

aside: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/10057671/how-foreach-actually-works/

is there a big :psyboom:

because this merits it

and for teaching people with no math background some amount of programming i'd pick logo because it lets you make pretty things quickly

# ? Mar 1, 2013 10:44

xf86enodev: Mar 27, 2010; dis catte!

spongeh posted:

http://ashkenas.com/literate-coffeescript/

ahhaahhhahaah

combine this with BDD and specs for frontend apps will look real neato :allears:

# ? Mar 1, 2013 11:25

shrughes: Oct 11, 2008; (call/cc call/cc)

It doesn't really matter how you teach programming because nobody cares whether the bottom 30% or the bottom 60% of the class drops the course. They'd all be bad programmers anyway.

# ? Mar 1, 2013 11:33

Zombywuf: Mar 29, 2008

shrughes posted:

It doesn't really matter how you teach programming because nobody cares whether the bottom 30% or the bottom 60% of the class drops the course. They'd all be bad programmers anyway.

Because the people who come out of a programming course came in to it already knowing how to program.

# ? Mar 1, 2013 12:13

shrughes: Oct 11, 2008; (call/cc call/cc)

That's not really true.

# ? Mar 1, 2013 12:16

Zombywuf: Mar 29, 2008

tef posted:

right class, we're going to teach you mathematics, but first, before we add 2+2 we have to learn category theory.

Category theory isn't first principles. Some mathematicians are retro fitting it as a foundation, but basic mathematics is taught from a foundation of peano arithmetic and universal algebra.

quote:

seriously, the only thing I want to beat into you guys, that how you learn is not how everyone else should learn, what you think is important is not what they think is important. get over it, other people have different problems they want to solve.

Yeah, and what I'd like you to learn is that chucking something with a non-trivial grammar at someone will lead them to make a lot of mistakes that can be very hard to recover from.

quote:

really all you show when you prescribe a package of suffering for learning is project your regret. you say 'we should teach this way' and mean 'i wish I learned in this order'.

Another word for suffering is challenging. Students who are not challenged will not learn, this is like lesson one in teacher training.

# ? Mar 1, 2013 12:17