Stuntman posted:Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Shadow of Chernobyl lack an over/under? Correct. It came with the assets, but it had to be added to the game via modding.
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Mar 2, 2013 05:41
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Stuntman posted:Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Shadow of Chernobyl lack an over/under? You know, it's been a while since I've played the first one, but I think you might be right. I know the over/under was heavily used in the promo material for SoC, was in several of the betas and I think was even in the game files at launch, but isn't actually in the final game. e:f,b
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Mar 2, 2013 05:43
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This discussion makes me want huge doom levels. People give me huge doom levels.
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Mar 2, 2013 06:06
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gooby on rails posted:A map only helps when you don't support room-over-room. Some of the levels in Marathon 2 and especially Infinity are utterly incomprehensible on the map view. What are you talking about?  Marathon maps are perfectly legible.
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Mar 2, 2013 06:12
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horse mans posted:This discussion makes me want huge doom levels. People give me huge doom levels. Hope you really want huge: http://www.doomworld.com/idgames/index.php?id=11438
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Mar 2, 2013 06:13
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horse mans posted:This discussion makes me want huge doom levels. People give me huge doom levels. I can't remember what it was called, but some insane bastard stitched all of Doom II's levels into one seamless map. That sounds right up your alley 
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Mar 2, 2013 06:21
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I like level design where you backtrack over the same areas a little because, basically, it mirrors what we do in real life. We go back and forth to the same few places for a while, have new and evolving experiences, and eventually, in some sense, "conquer" those places. Or at least it's what we want to do. There's something innately satisfying about that. And so it makes for a satisfying game, too. Each level (or "area" in a more Half-Life style game) you complete is a little victory, building up to the big victory at the end of the game. In 100% linear games, you don't really get that sense of victory until the very end, and even when you do, you almost feel like you stumbled into it. It's harder to look back and remember how you got there. In order for level design to be memorable, we need a chance to actually memorize it.
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Mar 2, 2013 06:26
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Mak0rz posted:I can't remember what it was called, but some insane bastard stitched all of Doom II's levels into one seamless map. That sounds right up your alley Memorial. It's not worth playing, since it's... well, exactly what you'd expect it to be, and nothing else.
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Mar 2, 2013 06:29
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RyokoTK posted:Memorial. It's not worth playing, since it's... well, exactly what you'd expect it to be, and nothing else. I could see it working if its just like every 4 or 5 levels stitched together, maybe some Doom 1 in.
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Mar 2, 2013 06:36
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RyokoTK posted:Memorial. It's not worth playing, since it's... well, exactly what you'd expect it to be, and nothing else. The way it handles keys and secrets is not terrible, and it does have the potential to be the Metroidvania that some people think Doom is. It just isn't. Also it doesn't work with a lot of mods if they mess with monster AI.
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Mar 2, 2013 06:37
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Red_Mage posted:The way it handles keys and secrets is not terrible, and it does have the potential to be the Metroidvania that some people think Doom is. It just isn't. Also it doesn't work with a lot of mods if they mess with monster AI. Most levels don't do too well with mods that mess with monster AI.
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Mar 2, 2013 06:46
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Red_Mage posted:The way it handles keys and secrets is not terrible, and it does have the potential to be the Metroidvania that some people think Doom is. It just isn't. Also it doesn't work with a lot of mods if they mess with monster AI. It also doesn't do coop well. At all. Lots of one-time-use switches and pathways. So basically the amount of things you can actually use it for is somewhere between "not a lot" and "even less". It's a shame, since it's a nice idea. Really cements the whole "one man's trek into the bowels of Hell" feel, since it's an actual trek and not just hit switch end level repeat. And there's been a lot of clever architecture tweaks in order to make all the levels fit together. It just...needs a lot more polish, and a lot more original stuff.
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Mar 2, 2013 07:12
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RyokoTK posted:Memorial. It's not worth playing, since it's... well, exactly what you'd expect it to be, and nothing else. I never claimed it was good. I could only suffer a few minutes of it myself.
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Mar 2, 2013 07:46
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RyokoTK posted:What are you talking about? What level is this? Is it from a scenario? haveblue fucked around with this message at 08:14 on Mar 2, 2013 |
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Mar 2, 2013 07:50
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RyokoTK posted:What are you talking about? Marathon maps don't even need to be complicated to be incomprehensible  I'm positive Bungie made 5-D Space just so it could be mentioned in every "What the gently caress, Marathon" conversation ever
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Mar 2, 2013 08:05
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Mak0rz posted:I can't remember what it was called, but some insane bastard stitched all of Doom II's levels into one seamless map. That sounds right up your alley I remember this map. It's the most brutal map on Survival mode. Makes me want an Ultimate Doom version.
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Mar 2, 2013 08:24
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gooby on rails posted:A map only helps when you don't support room-over-room. Some of the levels in Marathon 2 and especially Infinity are utterly incomprehensible on the map view. Metroid Prime did it alright. Sure it took getting used too but once you're comfy you're mostly set for good. http://jansenprice.com/metroid/met5_mp/mp_3dmaps.html To be fair 'tho, we can debate how heavily "3D" this map really is. It doesn't overlap very often at all. I think Prime 2/3 might have done that more but its been forever since i played them.
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Mar 2, 2013 10:14
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Stuntman posted:Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Shadow of Chernobyl lack an over/under? It's dummied out, but with some modding you can get it. It also becomes immediately obvious why it got dummied out: it deals more damage then the RPG 
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Mar 2, 2013 10:15
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Dominic White posted:I've played quite a few Doom mods and levels which are effectively straight linear advances with no maze-like elements or poking around for arbitrary secrets. It still manages to feel like Doom more often than not due to the rhythm of the combat. You're the fastest, most powerful thing on the battlefield, but one or two solid hits can wreck you. Speed and maneuverability at your main defensive attributes, and just backpedalling like Serious Sam doesn't help much, as many of your guns are either wide hitscan (shotguns) or slow projectiles (rockets, plasma) that enemies can easily move away from, so the best place to be fighting is right up close. Words cannot express how much I disagree with this post. elf help book posted:A decade of hallways has destroyed the modern gamer's spatial visualization ability. By now, many cannot find the out of their own homes! Amethyst fucked around with this message at 14:17 on Mar 2, 2013 |
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Mar 2, 2013 14:13
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So I just remembered that IMFDB exists.quote:Condemned: Criminal Origins A pretty short list, with no early FPSs. Strange that they don't show up more often, given the potential for awesome reload animations.
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Mar 2, 2013 14:52
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Amethyst posted:Words cannot express how much I disagree with this post. If only you'd read my other posts where I hold up a bunch of levels as great examples of how you can have complex interlinked environments that flow well. ZDCMP2 is one of my favourite mods in years. I'm just saying that it's the atmosphere and combat that are the core of Doom. Key hunts (and their even more arbitrary cousin, switch hunts) are just optional window-dressing - they may add context when done right, but when executed badly can completely kill gameplay flow. I was mostly responding to the people that seem to hold up the idea of getting completely lost and having no idea where to go next as a positive thing. Dominic White fucked around with this message at 20:10 on Mar 2, 2013 |
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Mar 2, 2013 16:19
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Somebody mentioned it a page ago, but it didn't really get much attention. This new Quake editor is really amazing; cross-platform and has lots of functionality, really easy to use: http://kristianduske.com/trenchbroom/ Carmack himself just linked to it and now the page is getting hosed.
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Mar 2, 2013 17:40
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Why did level hubs never catch on? I remember them being one of the features everyone thought was gonna be big, but they seem to have disappeared after 1998. Some high-profile games, like Quake 2 and, to a lesser extent, Half-Life 1, had them. By 2001 it seems like everyone forgot they existed.
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Mar 2, 2013 22:09
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Shadowmorn posted:Metroid Prime did it alright. Sure it took getting used too but once you're comfy you're mostly set for good. Not really. Most of Metroid Prime's (1, 2, or 3) maps have little overlap. If I remember right it was a design decision by Retro to make navigating less frustrating.
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Mar 2, 2013 22:21
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I'd imagine level hubs never caught on because having to walk back across 3 maps (that are for the most part empty since you passed through the first time) to find a door or switch or something is the complete opposite of fun.
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Mar 2, 2013 22:24
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So I finally checked out "Cheogsh", a massive level that takes advantage of a lot of GZDoom-features. The result is something distinctly reminiscent of Quake, with ample darkness, grotesque architecture, and a real "netherworld" vibe.    I'm such a sucker for colored lighting, it's disgusting. It's like I'm back in 1997   Or no lighting at all! Doom WADs remind me that so many games are reluctant to give you true darkness. Creeping through a dark crypt with 6 health and a SxS shotgun, fighting semi-invisible monsters...that's magic.
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Mar 2, 2013 22:52
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The concept of hubs (in that you can revisit areas) hasn't entirely disappeared, it has instead moved on to FPS/RPG hybrids.
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Mar 2, 2013 22:54
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So is Hexen 2 fair game here? If so I have a question. Is it MEANT to be so hard to figure anything out? Was there some list in the manual listing everything to do I missed out on by going digital with it? I can't tell what I'm doing.
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Mar 2, 2013 23:15
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Cream-of-Plenty posted:So I finally checked out "Cheogsh", a massive level that takes advantage of a lot of GZDoom-features. The result is something distinctly reminiscent of Quake, with ample darkness, grotesque architecture, and a real "netherworld" vibe. There was another Quake-looking Doom map a long time ago, wasn't there? I'm trying to find it. edit: Putrefier.
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Mar 2, 2013 23:28
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Cream-of-Plenty posted:So I finally checked out "Cheogsh", a massive level that takes advantage of a lot of GZDoom-features. The result is something distinctly reminiscent of Quake, with ample darkness, grotesque architecture, and a real "netherworld" vibe. There's a Cheogsh 2 and 3 (Realm of Cheogsh), too.
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Mar 3, 2013 01:25
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Dominic White posted:There's a Cheogsh 2 and 3 (Realm of Cheogsh), too. Is that what it's called? "Realm of Cheogsh"? Nice, I remember searching for "Cheogsh 3" and not finding anything, so this is good news. Fergus Mac Roich posted:There was another Quake-looking Doom map a long time ago, wasn't there? I'm trying to find it. Yes. Putrefier is another really good map, especially when you're in the mood for a Quake-like theme. Also, "Demons of Problematique 2" starts off with a very Quake-like vibe--down to copying the "choose your difficulty" section where higher difficulties required you to weave around obstacles to select them--but it seems to lose it shortly thereafter.
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Mar 3, 2013 02:12
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Considering all the mindblowing stuff that comes out of Doom modding I'm surprised I've never seen a full polygonal remake of any original Doom levels.
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Mar 3, 2013 02:24
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Fergus Mac Roich posted:Considering all the mindblowing stuff that comes out of Doom modding I'm surprised I've never seen a full polygonal remake of any original Doom levels. There's been tons of people who've straight up converted Doom levels to various other level formats, I distinctly remember one for Quake II for example. They don't tend to work out very well because of enemy and weapon balances in other engines...
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Mar 3, 2013 02:32
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Fergus Mac Roich posted:Considering all the mindblowing stuff that comes out of Doom modding I'm surprised I've never seen a full polygonal remake of any original Doom levels. There's at least one complete mod for Doom 3 that ports over/updates Doom 1 levels, but as mentioned, it really doesn't work unless you bring over every other gameplay aspect.
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Mar 3, 2013 02:37
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Oh, I meant inside of GZDoom. Would the game still work if it were in GZDoom, but with full 3D models for everything?
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Mar 3, 2013 02:44
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Fergus Mac Roich posted:Oh, I meant inside of GZDoom. Would the game still work if it were in GZDoom, but with full 3D models for everything? Well GZDoom doesn't really support fully polygonal levels since it's still the Doom engine at its heart. People have made 3d model replacements for all the sprite based objects in Doom for years and you can use them and the game works fine, but they usually look kind of crappy.
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Mar 3, 2013 02:47
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Huh. I just found this: http://www.prodigal-game.com/doomwads.html Has a remake of E2M4 in GZDoom. No idea if it's terrible or what I'm looking for or anything since I can't download it right now but I'm at least going to try it out.
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Mar 3, 2013 03:02
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xanthan posted:So is Hexen 2 fair game here? If so I have a question. Is it MEANT to be so hard to figure anything out? Was there some list in the manual listing everything to do I missed out on by going digital with it? I can't tell what I'm doing. This is super vague, so if you have any actual, specific questions, feel free to pose them. Hexen II is one of my favorite games, despite its numerous flaws, and I basically know it inside and out at this point. Like its predecessor, it's a hell of a switch/key/item hunt, and you're still limited to only four weapons per class, but there's something about the enemies, environment, and faux-levelup system that really grabbed me.
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Mar 3, 2013 03:06
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Fergus Mac Roich posted:Huh. I just found this: I love remakes of the classic levels. Report back!
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Mar 3, 2013 03:11
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This talk about huge Doom maps made me play ZDCMP2 again. I know I've talked a fair bit about this map by now (it's become one of my all-time favorite Doom wads), but the music is an underrated component. It's loving amazing, particularly the first tune, but it's absolutely great all the way through. It's too bad the music isn't apparently on Youtube because I would listen to it all day.
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Mar 3, 2013 04:28
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