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ToxicFrog posted:This. This is what I love about what, for lack of a better term, I will call "pre-Half-Life level design". This is what made Thief, System Shock, Deus Ex, Pathways into Darkness, and Marathon amazing for me. Levels that are spaces you can explore rather than just a linear sequence of encounters. The Looking Glass style of level design is a unique evolutionary offshoot (stemming from Ultima Underworld I think) and something to be cherished. The keycard hunts of yore, on the other hand are gone for a reason as far as I'm concerned. Lork fucked around with this message at 07:15 on Mar 3, 2013 |
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Mar 3, 2013 06:24
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Lork posted:Whoa now, while I agree that System Shock's level design is incredible, let's make once thing clear. The way you explore a System Shock level is not even remotely the same as the way you do in games with what I would call "pre Half-Life" level design like Doom, Quake, Marathon and so on. The former has a relatively logical layout and provides you with clues like signs on the walls and hints in the dialogue which you can use to explore the world intelligently, rather than just blindly stumbling through it like you do in the arbitrary mazes of the latter. Marathon is actually really good - in most cases, anyways - about giving you guidance with the terminals, even if the levels themselves aren't as detailed as UUW's or SS1's. Pathways into Darkness clues the poo poo out of things. And Quake 2 had briefings that, while not as good as Marathon's (some of which even had annotated maps), did give you some guidance. None of these are on the same level as LGS's work, but it's far cry from "blindly stumbling through arbitrary mazes". I also missed most of the "classic" FPSes of the 90s; I didn't play any of the Doom or Build engine games or Quake 1 until 2004 or so, and they didn't leave that great an impression on me when I did. That said, I think there may also be some difference in taste here; I genuinely enjoy Descent.
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Mar 3, 2013 07:02
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Very little of Doom's design or the resulting PWADs strikes me as mazey or confusing, but I am deep enough into the Doom paradigm that I'm hardly unbiased. I don't know what makes the style so hard to navigate for the people who say it is because I rarely if ever think about it and think complaints are greatly exagerrated. I love it, though, so don't take my silly keys and switches away.
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Mar 3, 2013 08:38
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horse mans posted:I love remakes of the classic levels. Report back! It has... heart. I'll give it that. It's a remake with heart.
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Mar 3, 2013 08:40
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All of this talk about level design and automaps reminds me that some mappers perform the devious trick of preventing certain areas of the map from being drawn, even when discovered. I've been ranting about Cheogsh lately, but I just realized that this WAD does it as well: There is at least one very dark labyrinth that is invisible on the automap, significantly increasing its difficulty. I don't mind, though. I just use buckshot to light my way. 
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Mar 3, 2013 08:54
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There's a maze in Chex Quest that did that. Now that I think about it, Chex Quest pulled a lot of dirty tricks for a kid's game.
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Mar 3, 2013 09:29
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RyokoTK posted:This talk about huge Doom maps made me play ZDCMP2 again. I know I've talked a fair bit about this map by now (it's become one of my all-time favorite Doom wads), but the music is an underrated component. It's loving amazing, particularly the first tune, but it's absolutely great all the way through. It's too bad the music isn't apparently on Youtube because I would listen to it all day. You can always extract it from the zip. Or you can get the original MIDI version from the author's site here (it's "2012 ZDCMP2 Remix", unsurprisingly). Cream-of-Plenty posted:All of this talk about level design and automaps reminds me that some mappers perform the devious trick of preventing certain areas of the map from being drawn, even when discovered. I've been ranting about Cheogsh lately, but I just realized that this WAD does it as well: There is at least one very dark labyrinth that is invisible on the automap, significantly increasing its difficulty. "Might makes light! And I feel mighty!" The good thing about the textured automap is that you'll still see the sectors even when they hide the linedefs. 
Cat Mattress fucked around with this message at 10:15 on Mar 3, 2013 |
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Mar 3, 2013 10:04
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Fergus Mac Roich posted:It has... heart. I'll give it that. It's a remake with heart.
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Mar 3, 2013 10:09
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Does anyone know why Heretic 2 was made as a 3rd person shooter platformy kind of game? I know it wasn't made by id, but seriously - why take a turn like that? I still found Heretic 2 kind of enjoyable, but I really hoped for a game much like the original.
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Mar 3, 2013 11:58
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Angelwolf posted:Does anyone know why Heretic 2 was made as a 3rd person shooter platformy kind of game? I know it wasn't made by id, but seriously - why take a turn like that? Raven soft is (was) a more experimental version of Id they made some top down shooters and a first person car shooter aswell. Flannelette fucked around with this message at 12:40 on Mar 3, 2013 |
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Mar 3, 2013 12:37
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Here's a Doom community megawad that flew under the radar a bit that some of you might like, Hadephobia. The gimmick behind this wad is that every map needed to lead on from the previous and come with a story that overall made one big story tying all of the levels together, try to give the levels some continuity instead of just a grab bag of levels. The levels also needed to have for the most part a continual difficulty progression and not have the balance be completely ruined by carrying weapons and ammo between levels (but pistol starting still works). The usual warning of community wads having quality all over the place applies here. I actually contributed to this wad but they were some of the first levels I ever made and looking back you might find some of them a bit poo poo-tastic so... uh.. sorry about that (the wad was "in development" for over 2 years and most of my levels were made way back then, although large chinks of that 2 years involved the wad going nowhere, as is the curse of internet community projects). It should work perfectly fine in ZDoom although apparently level 25's music doesn't work under some sound fonts? Works for me.
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Mar 3, 2013 21:17
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Looks like Brutalized Doom has updated again. http://forum.zdoom.org/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=32929&sid=be5bfcdc9ad20a39d462098469a11f8e For those who haven't tried it before, it's the classic Doom/Doom 2 campaigns remixed with more enemies and traps to gel better with the more aggressive kill-speed of Brutal Doom. The upper difficulty settings are specifically intended for co-op. Quite a few new rooms and additional monster waves, too, especially in earlier, shorter levels. It's a universal WAD, so it contains replacements for all the Doom and Doom 2 levels. Best used in conjunction with the official Brutal Doom metal soundtrack: http://www.moddb.com/mods/brutal-doom/downloads/doom-metal-soundtrack-mod-volume-3 Dominic White fucked around with this message at 22:30 on Mar 3, 2013 |
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Mar 3, 2013 22:07
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Anyone know any good megawads for Heretic? I've been getting a little tired of Doom, Brutal Doom too, and it's been a few years since I played Heretic. I'm playing through this weird thing right now: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmTelmM3dZc and it's kind of fun for the novelty, but I'd definitely prefer a real Heretic megawad!
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Mar 4, 2013 01:46
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Jesus christ Scythe MAP11 is impossible on UV 
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Mar 4, 2013 01:51
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It's relatively straight forward. What's giving you trouble with it?
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Mar 4, 2013 02:21
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Korendian Leader posted:It's relatively straight forward. What's giving you trouble with it? It's not even the design of it that's giving me trouble, it's the fact that it forces a pistol start for whatever godforsaken loving reason and then throws quite a number of enemies at you. Most of which are really drat difficult to kill with the pistol or berserk fists, meaning you have to basically run like hell to the shotgun before you can make any progress whatsoever and hope none of them obliterate you on the way.
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Mar 4, 2013 02:25
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WickedIcon posted:It's not even the design of it that's giving me trouble, it's the fact that it forces a pistol start for whatever godforsaken loving reason and then throws quite a number of enemies at you. Most of which are really drat difficult to kill with the pistol or berserk fists, meaning you have to basically run like hell to the shotgun before you can make any progress whatsoever and hope none of them obliterate you on the way. Berserking imps and demons isn't too bad once you know how. Demons and Specres can't actually hurt you as long as you keep walking back and forth while attacking.
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Mar 4, 2013 02:38
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WickedIcon posted:Jesus christ Scythe MAP11 is impossible on UV Nah, you're silly. If you're playing Scythe on its own, the key is to immediately nab the berserk pack and make full use of it by liquidating lesser enemies as quickly as possible (zombies, imps, and maybe demons). As you run around, try to encourage some in-fighting from the cacodemons and revenants. Move in the general direction of the green armor and shotgun so that, by the time the berserk wears off, you've got some better firepower than your lowly pistol. This short video gives a pretty concise idea of the objective the moment you spawn. It's definitely a tougher start for an episode, though, since it doesn't follow the whole enemy-escalation of "zombies > imps > demons > medium-tier enemies" like a lot of other WADs. You're pretty much in the thick of it the minute the map begins. Curiously, this is one of the maps that actually seems to be easier on the equivalent difficulty in Brutal Doom, since your "pistol" is a lot more competent and the berserk pack enables you to take zombie/imp shields.
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Mar 4, 2013 04:06
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Cream-of-Plenty posted:Nah, you're silly. If you're playing Scythe on its own, the key is to immediately nab the berserk pack and make full use of it by liquidating lesser enemies as quickly as possible (zombies, imps, and maybe demons). As you run around, try to encourage some in-fighting from the cacodemons and revenants. Move in the general direction of the green armor and shotgun so that, by the time the berserk wears off, you've got some better firepower than your lowly pistol. This is good advice on the whole, but I'd like to let you know that Berserk doesn't expire over time, it burns off only when you leave the level.
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Mar 4, 2013 04:23
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RyokoTK posted:This is good advice on the whole, but I'd like to let you know that Berserk doesn't expire over time, it burns off only when you leave the level. Oh yeah, I forgot about that. It was actually only recently that I found out it lasted the entire level. I keep thinking that, when the red filter goes away, the berserk wears off.
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Mar 4, 2013 04:29
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Cream-of-Plenty posted:Oh yeah, I forgot about that. It was actually only recently that I found out it lasted the entire level. I keep thinking that, when the red filter goes away, the berserk wears off. 
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Mar 4, 2013 04:36
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Evan Montegarde posted:Anyone know any good megawads for Heretic? I've been getting a little tired of Doom, Brutal Doom too, and it's been a few years since I played Heretic That being said, if you stretch your definition of megawad a bit, there some good stuff to be found. Curse of D'Sparil I hear is a very good mapset, and Something of the Apostate is a levelset I have very good memories of. Outside of the ammo management difficulties, that is. If you want a full, complete, every level replaced megawad, though, the only not terrible option is the Heretic Treasure Chest. And even then, it has some real nasty stinkers...
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Mar 4, 2013 09:43
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Masters of Chaos is a good Heretic one. Won a Cacoward, even. http://www.doomworld.com/idgames/?id=16817 It's not a pure level pack - each episode has a couple unique enemies and weapons - but it's good stuff for the most part.
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Mar 4, 2013 15:00
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Oh, right, Masters of Chaos and Hordes of Chaos! Fuuuuuuck, I can't believe I forgot about them. Crossover wads like that and Armageddon (not a Heretic wad) are often super stupid giddy fun.
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Mar 4, 2013 17:11
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Flannelette posted:Raven soft is (was) a more experimental version of Id they made some top down shooters and a first person car shooter aswell. Ouch man 
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Mar 4, 2013 17:34
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Cream-of-Plenty posted:This short video gives a pretty concise idea of the objective the moment you spawn.
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Mar 4, 2013 18:30
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TerminusEst13 posted:Oh, right, Masters of Chaos and Hordes of Chaos! Fuuuuuuck, I can't believe I forgot about them. http://zdoom.org/wiki/Category:Heretic_mods Of course it doesn't include the Heretic Treasure Chest or Curse of D'Sparil since those are not "created for ZDoom".
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Mar 4, 2013 18:51
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Korendian Leader posted:Yeah, not really mate. That's a good route to take if you want to go fast but it's a lot harder than simply walking straight to the shotgun and armor. Survivability first, then speed. Maybe you just suck at the level?  Fast is survival.
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Mar 4, 2013 19:13
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Cream-of-Plenty posted:Fast is survival. Guess we have our next thread name.
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Mar 4, 2013 19:21
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Cream-of-Plenty posted:Maybe you just suck at the level? Which is one of the things I love about Painkiller echoing older shooters. Also I love how fragile the WW1 zombies are and that they throw 50-60 of them at you at a time.
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Mar 4, 2013 19:24
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Cream-of-Plenty posted:Maybe you just suck at the level? Personally, i'm quite good at doom and don't have trouble with scythe.
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Mar 4, 2013 19:51
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I haven't done Scythe in a while, so I fired up Map11 to see what everyone was talking about. I got trapped in the red key room 
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Mar 4, 2013 20:36
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It is possible to sequence break through map 11. You can strafe-jump from the shotgun ledge to the Supercharge, and then from there you can strafe-jump into the red key room. Then you use the secret door from the red key room that is the intended path to the Supercharge, and from there you can just walk over to the exit. You can skip that entire blue key clusterfuck entirely. (Edit: I mean strafe-running off the ledges; no actual jumping is involved.)
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Mar 4, 2013 20:40
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RyokoTK posted:It is possible to sequence break through map 11. You can strafe-jump from the shotgun ledge to the Supercharge, and then from there you can strafe-jump into the red key room. Then you use the secret door from the red key room that is the intended path to the Supercharge, and from there you can just walk over to the exit. You can skip that entire blue key clusterfuck entirely. I did that, I just couldn't figure out how the hell to get out of the red key room again.
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Mar 4, 2013 20:41
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Fag Boy Jim posted:I did that, I just couldn't figure out how the hell to get out of the red key room again. One of the bodies on the wall can be tabbed to open a secret door back out. Come on, how long have you played Doom for? When stuck, hump every wall until something happens.
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Mar 4, 2013 20:42
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Okay, finally caught up with this thread. I didn't see this mentioned at all (I may have missed it) but have you guys seen GUN GODZ? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7JNczDp3UM I know it's not an early FPS, but it looks like it plays like a mix between wolf 3D and Doom. Unfortunately it was only a giveaway for some kickstarter project and you can't purchase it (unless I'm mistaken), and it's only for PC. I really hope they bring it to iOS as I felt Wolf 3D played fantastic on the touchscreen. Is there any way at all to get Doom64 EX running on a Mac? It doesn't seem like it, but on the off chance there is I figure I'd ask.
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Mar 4, 2013 21:02
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I don't know if there are binary builds available somewhere; but it is (or rather, should be) a cross-platform program so in the worst case you can try compiling it yourself. Which won't be easy unless you have any experience doing this kind of stuff, since the "building on Mac OS X" article on the wiki is redlinked, so you'll be on your own to figure it out. Hmm, this isn't looking promising.
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Mar 4, 2013 21:33
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Cheesegod posted:Okay, finally caught up with this thread. I didn't see this mentioned at all (I may have missed it) but have you guys seen GUN GODZ? I'd heard of it via a Gamasutra article and I really wanted to play it. It's kind of bullshit that only backers ever get to play it.
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Mar 4, 2013 21:35
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Dominic White posted:Masters of Chaos is a good Heretic one. Won a Cacoward, even. MoC has its good points. Just 1) play it straight through, "wand start" balance is awful 2) some of the new monsters are horrible, nightmares suck hard if you're not packing gauntlets and the invisible warriors are the worst. I liked the new weapons except for the ember wand, which was underwhelming. The toned emerald wand is boss, though.
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Mar 5, 2013 06:36
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So here's something I haven't seen discussed in the thread. Be nice to finally add it to the Steam library legitimately, especially if the Duke+ mode makes co-op/Dukematches easy again. We've known about Duke3D coming to Steam for a while now but this is the first I've seen or heard about Shadow Warrior 'Complete' but I guess if it makes sense to do all that work on one Build game, might as well do another.
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