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mmj posted:Now that I type this out, changing the fluff of tyranids to be the c'tan's version of the soviet "hand from the grave" or dead hand MAD isn't terrible, I could get behind that. Dead hand is one of my favorite/scariest parts of Cold War history, along with the soviet radar operator that avoided nuclear war by waiting to report radar signatures that ended up being a hardware issue. I never would have made that connection, but that is pretty interesting. Nids as the fail-deadly of a dying species. I had a relative who was an active duty navy nuke during the Cold War and some of the (totally true) things he told me about how close we all came to killing each other back then were way scarier as a kid than any made up story.
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Mar 4, 2013 05:30
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Boo to that. Tyranids are animals. They're just the logical outgrowth of nature, and no naked laughing space gods had anything to do with them. I'd only be down with the notion of the C'tan turning on a beacon that made this galaxy visible, otherwise the Crons have enough cool poo poo that they did already.
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Mar 4, 2013 05:51
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theironjef posted:Boo to that. Tyranids are animals. They're just the logical outgrowth of nature, and no naked laughing space gods had anything to do with them. I'd only be down with the notion of the C'tan turning on a beacon that made this galaxy visible, otherwise the Crons have enough cool poo poo that they did already. Maybe, but an entire rainbow of species designed to do nothing but eradicate biological life doesn't seem like an evolutionary branch that is destined to survive. It's why Ebola or hantavirus hasn't curb stomped the human race. Destroying hosts/prey too rapidly actually prevents survival.if our worst terrestrial viruses didnt have carriers in the animal kingdom to let them proliferate they would have shuffled loose the mortal coil soon after emerging. assuming that happened, intergalactic travel is a stopgap measure at best. In the evolutionary sense, life actually favors some form of cohabitation or symbiosis. At a minimum it trends towards not slaughtering the victim that quickly and thoroughly. Despite my love of tyranids as an allegory for death, they are technically an evolutionary dead end. Dear lord, I need to stop applying logic and science to 40k. Edit: fair enough jerrylee, sentient thought definitely makes separates Ebola from tyranids. mmj fucked around with this message at 06:28 on Mar 4, 2013 |
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Mar 4, 2013 06:07
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You're comparing that to the Tyranids, a species with enough volition (let's not quibble over how exactly that volition manifests) to move around on its own and with purpose, rather than having to hope its host spreads it onwards before bleeding out into a puddle of viscera. In order for the comparison to be valid, you'd have to assume that Ebola could successfully leave the corpse of the human it'd just killed and survive while it navigated its way through the air (=interstellar/intergalactic space) to home in on its next host. I'm pretty sure that this hypothetical strain of Ebola could in fact gently caress the entire human race. Sure, eventually the Tyranids would have consumed all the biomass in the 40k galaxy, but then they would go on to the next one. Do you know how many galaxies there are? A shitload. I would not be surprised if, given that the Tyranids seem to travel at a relatively limited speed, the heat death of the universe or other exit mundi scenario would take place before they'd denuded every single galaxy of its biomass. I'm far too lazy to run the numbers myself (not to mention I don't believe we know for certain exactly how long their transit between galaxies is) so this is just a minimally educated guess.
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Mar 4, 2013 06:23
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mmj posted:Maybe, but an entire rainbow of species designed to do nothing but eradicate biological life doesn't seem like an evolutionary branch that is destined to survive. It's why Ebola or hantavirus hasn't curb stomped the human race. Destroying hosts/prey too rapidly actually prevents survival.if our worst terrestrial viruses didnt have carriers in the animal kingdom to let them proliferate they would have shuffled loose the mortal coil soon after emerging. assuming that happened, intergalactic travel is a stopgap measure at best. In the evolutionary sense, life actually favors some form of cohabitation or symbiosis. At a minimum it trends towards not slaughtering the victim that quickly and thoroughly. Despite my love of tyranids as an allegory for death, they are technically an evolutionary dead end. Dear lord, I need to stop applying logic and science to 40k. It's funny that since tyranids are more or less the biology faction, people get into these debates about them. Since yeah, there's a faction of green fungus apes, and like 6 factions of 8 foot tall poisonous ubermen. They're still poisonous, right? That's never been officially retconned or anything? Incidentally I think what they need to do for tyranid fluff is add something minor about how psyker biomass is more valuable. Make it clear there's something special about psykers that tyranids really want and need, but not clear what that is or how it works. It gives them some extra menace and intelligence, and neatly solves the wide berth for necrons issue, without giving Necrons any measure of tyranid backstory autonomy. The vanguard swarm stops off at a tomb world, when they get back into range of the swarm body they send the message of "this planet is primarily lived on by malevolent lawnmowers, it is not worth consuming and would represent a net loss of momentum and biomass accumulation."
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Mar 4, 2013 06:47
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theironjef posted:It's funny that since tyranids are more or less the biology faction, people get into these debates about them. Since yeah, there's a faction of green fungus apes, and like 6 factions of 8 foot tall poisonous ubermen. They're still poisonous, right? That's never been officially retconned or anything? The thought of this and a few angry toasters made me giggle a bit. That'd be an interesting add, and could probably explain why they (somewhat) head for Earth every time they show up. You could probably also tie in the bit about Tigurius (the Ultramarine librarian) piercing the Hive Mind; sure he picked up some useful info, but now the Hive Mind knows that there are exceptionally  )
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Mar 4, 2013 07:19
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theironjef posted:It's funny that since tyranids are more or less the biology faction, people get into these debates about them. Since yeah, there's a faction of green fungus apes, and like 6 factions of 8 foot tall poisonous ubermen. They're still poisonous, right? That's never been officially retconned or anything? I believe in Angel Exterminatus Forrix spits on the ground for some reason and it offhandedly mentions that it sizzles and melts the stone. It's like, half a sentence. But it's there.
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Mar 4, 2013 07:33
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So, can you make an army where you cast divination on a squad of noise marines? Re-rolling all those sweet dice would be pretty fun.mmj posted:The fluff for old ones and c'tan basically have them fighting for control of our galaxy before the other races were even starting to evolve from single called organisms.although it's never explicitly stated they were Milky Way bound, there was never any suggestion that they wherein other galaxies. Hell the C'tan went dormant to dodge old ones, if they could hop over to the andromeda galaxy and repopulate why wouldn't they do that and come back in force? It's not impossible in the current fluff but it seems unlikely. Given the mind bogging distance between galaxies and the fact that tyranids never had warp travel to break the rules of space and time, it seems unlikely. The gravity corridors made by the narwhal ships can only do so much to speed travel, and they get more effective as they get closer to the target gravity well. Intergalactic travel is basically covered in the fluff as the ships accelerating to max speed and hibernating for the entire trip, none of the 40k races still alive have another explanation for it. That being said, if the fluff changes significantly your explanation will probably be dead on. It won't be the old ones making tyranids because they were powerful psykers like the eldar and would see the c'tan and necrons becoming non-organic and avoided by tyranids. Since the old ones started encouraging the development of other races in the galaxy to fight it is probably the c'tan that would look elsewhere for a biomass obsessed alien feeding frenzy. Now that I type this out, changing the fluff of tyranids to be the c'tan's version of the soviet "hand from the grave" or dead hand MAD isn't terrible, I could get behind that. Dead hand is one of my favorite/scariest parts of Cold War history, along with the soviet radar operator that avoided nuclear war by waiting to report radar signatures that ended up being a hardware issue. If he had called it in, the world probably would have turned into a radioactive wasteland. Wikipedia says his name is Stanislav Yevgrafovich Petrov. /end Cold War derail, that stuff just really interests me Vasiliy Arkhipov is my favoirte of the stories. Just reading it makes you realize how tense that situation was.
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Mar 4, 2013 07:36
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[quote="theironjef" post="""] Incidentally I think what they need to do for tyranid fluff is add something minor about how psyker biomass is more valuable. [/quote] That's perfect since the codex (or lexicon, I forget which) says the reason they're pushing towards terra so hard is the astronomicon beacon the emperor is projecting. Also, the doom of malantai is so freaking awesome cause he consumed an entire craftworld's infinity circuit. A psykerless race like necrons would be crap to them. Dark eldar would also have an advantage that gets represented by poisoned weapons too, so that idea fits fluff and mechanics like a glove. The orks are the best psykers in the game, fluff wise, so them feeding that one hive fleet fits too. I hope you're right because that fits so drat well Edit: I wish there was a tyranid series written by one of the better authors in the 40k novel universe. I would read that until my eyes bled, then buy the books on tape. mmj fucked around with this message at 07:42 on Mar 4, 2013 |
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Mar 4, 2013 07:40
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Schizotek posted:I believe in Angel Exterminatus Forrix spits on the ground for some reason and it offhandedly mentions that it sizzles and melts the stone. It's like, half a sentence. But it's there. It's also a minor plot point in the (bad) novel Blood Gorgons. One of the Chaos Marines uses his acid spit to engineer an escape.
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Mar 4, 2013 07:40
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BULBASAUR posted:So, can you make an army where you cast divination on a squad of noise marines? Re-rolling all those sweet dice would be pretty fun. allied tzeentch daemons.
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Mar 4, 2013 08:42
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AgentF posted:The great big embargo is the one where European retailers can't ship outside Europe. American prices are better than ours, but everyone used to order all their stuff from the UK for a reason; because it was much cheaper still. Yeah, I know. I would say on 90% of the stuff I get from the US I am paying less then I ever have since buying GW stuff since 1999. I get that it sucks that we can't order from the UK retailers that offer even better prices, postage rates and times as well. But I am still building armies for cheaper than I ever have in the hobby. And there are still Australians who seem to think they have to buy locally when it just isnt the case.
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Mar 4, 2013 08:45
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Improbable Lobster posted:It's also a minor plot point in the (bad) novel Blood Gorgons. One of the Chaos Marines uses his acid spit to engineer an escape. ADB mentions it several times in his Night Lords trilogy, which, incidentally, everyone should read.
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Mar 4, 2013 09:15
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Some chapters have mutations that prevent them from spitting acid. In the Deathwatch RPG books they go over it as being one of the glands.
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Mar 4, 2013 09:30
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Sardine Wit posted:Is there any chance that GW will be running more global events ala Storm of Chaos and the 13th Black Crusade? No. No chance at all.
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Mar 4, 2013 10:13
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Corrode posted:No. No chance at all. Boo, why not?
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Mar 4, 2013 11:01
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Ok, I've had a good read of the daemons codex and I think I love everything except the warp storm table The warp storm table bad for all the reasons dread fleet is bad. A random roll, every turn that has the potential to completely cripple you or your opponent. There's no skill, strategy or choice. Don't get me wrong. I'm not hating on all random elements. I think the shokk attack gun is the best. But at least with the SAG the ork player gets to weigh up the risk and choose whether to include it and if they do where to deploy it and where and when to shoot it. The warp storm table is just random and devastating. Roll an eleven bam, enemy Psyker, anywhere on the battlefield has a 50% chance of dying. Roll a 2 and half your army evaporates. Cataphract fucked around with this message at 11:05 on Mar 4, 2013 |
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Mar 4, 2013 11:03
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Hey guys, I've a multi-part question (that most likely been answered elsewhere in this thread) which arose in a game after I charged a unit of gaunts into a unit of guardsmen hiding behind a fortification: 1) Is an Aegis Defense Line (ADL) counted as area terrain and if you TOUCH it, are you considered to be 'in terrain' for Difficult Terrain rolls? 2) What happens in regards to measuring range, rolling for Difficult Terrain, and your Initiative when you charge a unit into an enemy unit where their models are in base to base with the ADL? 3) Same question as above but the enemy unit is half (or a fraction of) an inch BEHIND the ADL and not touching it? 4) In what situations would I get a cover save against the shooting done by the guardsmen (ie/ how far away from the ADL would the majority of the guardsmen unit need to be before I can legitimately claim a cover save for the enemy unit shooting 'through' the ADL rather than 'from' it. I've read the rulebook, checked FAQs, checked online, and cant seem find a clear consensus for all those four points. My interpretation: 1) Not counted as area terrain, although to CROSS it you will need a DiffTerrain test. 2) Measure charge range to enemy unit, don't roll for DiffTerrain, Initiative retained. 3) Measure charge range to enemy unit, roll for DiffTerrain, Initiative falls to 1 (unless Assault Grenades) 4) Anything not in base to base with the ADL? I'd really like a clear cut explanation, since my friend seemed to think that the ADL was great and the unspoken implication was that I was to see it frequently from here on out.
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Mar 4, 2013 11:38
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The Impaler posted:Hey guys, I've a multi-part question (that most likely been answered elsewhere in this thread) which arose in a game after I charged a unit of gaunts into a unit of guardsmen hiding behind a fortification: 1)yes, if you are assaulting across the ADL you need to make a difficult terrain roll (3d6 remove the highest) 2)measure range to the closest model in the unit you are charging. You still roll for terrain and strike at Initiative 1 unless you have assault grenades. If the enemy model is touching the aegis you place your models on the opposite side of the Aegis so that they are facing one another, fighting across it. They are considered to be in base contact. Models not in base contact can cross the Aegis with their pile in moves. 3)If you still need to cross the AGL to reach them you still have to take a difficult terrain roll. Again, measure to the closest model in the unit you wish to charge and place your assaulting model in base to base. 4)True line of sight. get a models eye view of the shooting model, if their line of sight is not blocked then they can shoot. If it is blocked you receive a 4+ from the Aegis. generally they'd need to be 3 or 4 inches away from the Aegis for it to block line of sight. Cataphract fucked around with this message at 11:56 on Mar 4, 2013 |
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Mar 4, 2013 11:45
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Wouldn't it only count as them being in difficult terrain if you need to charge across the aegis defense line to get at them? What if they're touching the terrain with their base, but are sitting flat on the table (since you can't really stack infantry on top of it without grognardy balance shenanigans) on the side closer to your charging unit, to the extent your guys at no point cross it? Is charging always in a straight line, or (if your units could easily make the distance) could they go around the end of the terrain peace to get at the juicy unit on the other side?
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Mar 4, 2013 11:56
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Sardine Wit posted:Boo, why not? Too much of an issue to organize I think. And not enough profit in it versus expenditure I reckon as well. (That theory probably doesn't hold water though.)
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Mar 4, 2013 11:58
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Hamshot posted:Wouldn't it only count as them being in difficult terrain if you need to charge across the aegis defense line to get at them? What if they're touching the terrain with their base, but are sitting flat on the table (since you can't really stack infantry on top of it without grognardy balance shenanigans) on the side closer to your charging unit, to the extent your guys at no point cross it? You still theoretically cross the ADL to assault the defending model. However, since physics makes it difficult to place the model on top of the barricade you can place it on the opposite side. page 104 talks about barricades and walls and how you place models to fight across them. Also, you must assault with your initial charger (the closest model) by the shortest possible route. subsequent chargers move one at a time staying in coherency, engaging unengaged models if they can, engaging engaged models if there are no unengaged models in range, and merely staying in coherency if there are no enemy models in range. If any of the models have to cross terrain the whole unit takes terrain rolls.
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Mar 4, 2013 12:10
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So what's the general game plan when going into a kill points game? I've got a game against our DA player tonight and we'll be playing the hunt for the Fallen scenario from White Dwarf a couple of issues ago. No Cultists, because they'll run away, but I'm planning on Abaddon, several Terminators, Obliterators, 2 squads of Chosen, AC Havocs, and an AC Forgefiend.
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Mar 4, 2013 14:12
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Cataphract posted:You still theoretically cross the ADL to assault the defending model. However, since physics makes it difficult to place the model on top of the barricade you can place it on the opposite side. page 104 talks about barricades and walls and how you place models to fight across them. You wouldn't theoretically cross the ADL if you charged the unit from behind the ADL, so it wouldn't count as difficult terrain in that instance.
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Mar 4, 2013 16:21
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PeterWeller posted:You wouldn't theoretically cross the ADL if you charged the unit from behind the ADL, so it wouldn't count as difficult terrain in that instance. correct, but I believe the op was talking about a situation where models were charging across the barricade but couldn't be placed in base to base with the enemey models because the enemy unit was flush with the barricade. Cataphract fucked around with this message at 16:32 on Mar 4, 2013 |
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Mar 4, 2013 16:30
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Sardine Wit posted:Boo, why not? They take work, don't make money, and generally breed bad will when the fluff goes in whatever direction they had planned in the first place instead of reflecting the results in any way.
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Mar 4, 2013 17:15
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mmj posted:In the evolutionary sense, life actually favors some form of cohabitation or symbiosis. At a minimum it trends towards not slaughtering the victim that quickly and thoroughly. Despite my love of tyranids as an allegory for death, they are technically an evolutionary dead end. Dear lord, I need to stop applying logic and science to 40k. Of course, there are a million other problems with the Hive Mind's strategy when looked at from an evolutionary perspective, but "eating planets is bad for all life" isn't one of them. Evolution is surprisingly short-sighted. theironjef posted:The vanguard swarm stops off at a tomb world, when they get back into range of the swarm body they send the message of "this planet is primarily lived on by malevolent lawnmowers, it is not worth consuming and would represent a net loss of momentum and biomass accumulation." The Impaler posted:Hey guys, I've a multi-part question (that most likely been answered elsewhere in this thread) which arose in a game after I charged a unit of gaunts into a unit of guardsmen hiding behind a fortification: 1. The Aegis is not area terrain, but it is terrain. Models have to make a difficult terrain check if they want to cross it, but not simply for touching it. 2. Since whether or not you are charging through difficult terrain or not is checked before you actually roll the charge, use the normal method (draw a "closest to closest" for each model in your unit to theirs) and if those cross over the Aegis, you will need to roll for moving through DT. Merely moving into base contact (if there is no space to "hop over" the Aegis) will not force a DT test, but chances are there is going to be enough room for you to cross over somewhere. 3. Usually going to be the same end result (you have to roll DT test) as the above, just a more guaranteed version. 4. Unless ALL the Guardsmen are lined up directly next to the Aegis line, they are virtually guaranteed to have their view your 'Nids obscured by the Aegis and thus you'll get a cover save. The Aegis is a really handy little piece of terrain in a variety of ways, including bringing a Skyfire gun, but it does have limitations. I regularly get saves from the enemy's ADL for free, so I'm quite happy to see one across the table.
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Mar 4, 2013 17:29
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AbusePuppy posted:I've always thought it weird that Tyranids stop at consuming the biomass of a planet. If they are infinitely adaptive biological machines, consuming most of the minerals, soil, etc, of the planet should be on the priority list as well, since carbon is carbon when you get down to it. Why not extract all that stuff locked into the crust, at least until you get deep enough that geological heat makes actually doing anything with it prohibitive? To my knowledge, that is what they do. They are capable of consuming ceramite and other hard ores, so I doubt that carbon is really a problem. They typically continue consuming the resources of the world until the crust becomes fragile and begins to collapse due to atmospheric pressure changes, spilling magma and making it exceedingly dangerous to continue. By the time Imperial ships arrive to aid/survey the planet, it is a lifeless husk with greatly reduced mass. The Tyranid could likely wait for the planet to stabilize and then drop back in, rinse/repeat until it was all gone, but the time/energy invested for that it great even by their standards. It is much more efficient to consume the largest/easiest portion and then move on. This also allows gives the planet time and potential to slowly recoup over hundreds of thousands of years, just in time for them to come by again. Eat an apple, plant a seed, etc.
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Mar 4, 2013 17:42
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Cataphract posted:correct, but I believe the op was talking about a situation where models were charging across the barricade but couldn't be placed in base to base with the enemey models because the enemy unit was flush with the barricade. Yeah, I was clarifying in response to this: quote:Wouldn't it only count as them being in difficult terrain if you need to charge across the aegis defense line to get at them? In regards to the potential Tyranids -- Old Ones -- C'Tan connection, I do like the idea that the Old Ones knew they were coming and perhaps had a plan to deal with them that has been lost to the ravages of time and eternal war. I really like the idea that cosmic space frogs and star vampires had everything figured out, and in truth, even the most sophisticated existent races are, in comparison, just children bashing rocks together.
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Mar 4, 2013 17:55
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Hey, that's pretty cool: Elizabeth Katherine Foster became the first woman to win a GT, sweeping the Bay Area Open.
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Mar 4, 2013 17:55
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Fix posted:Hey, that's pretty cool: Elizabeth Katherine Foster became the first woman to win a GT, sweeping the Bay Area Open. Now all we need is for dudes to be able to write an article about it without using tits as the first word in the title.
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Mar 4, 2013 17:57
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PeterWeller posted:Now all we need is for dudes to be able to write an article about it without using tits as the first word in the title. There's alot of reasons to be ashamed to be a geek. But I think that title gets the point across rather succinctly.
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Mar 4, 2013 18:00
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PeterWeller posted:Now all we need is for dudes to be able to write an article about it without using tits as the first word in the title. I don't know about tournaments you've been to but despite their general lack of females, there's no lacking for tits at those things. 
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Mar 4, 2013 18:04
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PeterWeller posted:Now all we need is for dudes to be able to write an article about it without using tits as the first word in the title. The fact a woman won doesn't change the name of the column. 
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Mar 4, 2013 18:08
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LordAba posted:The only bad thing about them is how fragile they are, both the chariots themselves and the riders. Still fun to take, and I have a bunch of slaanesh chariots built that I'm going to have to paint soon. They're fast, though, so if you can manage to get them cover somehow, turn 2 assaults!
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Mar 4, 2013 18:10
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Naramyth posted:The fact a woman won doesn't change the name of the column. Hehe. I should have probably read the prominent disclaimer before displaying my righteous indignation.
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Mar 4, 2013 18:35
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Fix posted:I don't know about tournaments you've been to but despite their general lack of females, there's no lacking for tits at those things. Ha ha this was the first thing I thought of.
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Mar 4, 2013 18:48
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PeterWeller posted:Hehe. I should have probably read the prominent disclaimer before displaying my righteous indignation. Eh, you're hardly the first to trip in the race to be most progressive. And yeah, worldwide events are a gigantic headache but also a decent source of publicity. I can see why they don't bother with them anymore but anything's possible.
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Mar 4, 2013 19:03
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She won by default because The Belt of Russ would not fit around the belly of any other player, obviously.
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Mar 4, 2013 19:03
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Arbite posted:Eh, you're hardly the first to trip in the race to be most progressive. What the poo poo did they think was going to happen, regardless?
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Mar 4, 2013 19:13
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