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Tubgirl Cosplay posted:I read the high school arc thing as being weird and degrading because Teodor's still way in the closet and that's how he thinks of his latent homosexuality. I'm not sold that he's gay. I think he's just an incredibly unsuccessful heterosexual, and he's become paranoid that it is because he's gay. I think he's sabotaging himself, and is insecure with his sexuality. We at least know that Teodor likes the ladies, but is very awkward about it.
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Mar 4, 2013 16:48
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I wouldn't rule out the possibility that Teodor is a repressed bisexual. It's hard to tell though because he overanalyzes everything.
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Mar 4, 2013 17:10
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I won't rule out the possibility that occasionally a straight dude just cold wants to experience a dick in their mouth
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Mar 4, 2013 18:15
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tehloki posted:I won't rule out the possibility that occasionally a straight dude just cold wants to experience a dick in their mouth I forget this storyline, post a link? Is that the one where he and Nice Pete go off on their 'High School' adventure?
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Mar 4, 2013 19:26
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It's like the logical extension of watching gay porn to see if you're straight. If having a cock in your mouth doesn't do anything for you, you're as straight as straight can be. Of course you might also want to try taking it in the can if you want your research to be fully exhaustive.
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Mar 4, 2013 19:32
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Sigma-X posted:Pretty much this. It is about a bunch of dudes in dude relationships. It isn't meant to be something for everyone, and you don't need a strong female character in it to make it good. You're agreeing with all the criticism put forth so far (Achewood's universe is somewhat exclusionary to women, and shows them only through the perspective of men), while at the same time making a straw-man of that same criticism, as if people in this thread were asking for female role models in the comic to inspire young girls to greatness. I don't get your point. No one said that, to my knowledge. I'll reiterate: You can find a flaw in an a work, while still saying that the work is great and amazing. I think you can even make an argument that those flaws fit Achewood's unique style and subject matter. It's just annoying that every time someone brings up a point like this, lots of people shut down and get overly defensive about it. Anyway, according to his Twitter, I guess Onstad met Bono and they talked about death. That's cool I guess.
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Mar 4, 2013 19:50
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Locus posted:You're agreeing with all the criticism put forth so far (Achewood's universe is somewhat exclusionary to women, and shows them only through the perspective of men), while at the same time making a straw-man of that same criticism, as if people in this thread were asking for female role models in the comic to inspire young girls to greatness. I don't get your point. No one said that, to my knowledge. I think his point is that a thing can be about dudes and even can be "somewhat exclusionary to women" without being "casually misogynistic".
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Mar 4, 2013 19:55
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Dominion posted:I think his point is that a thing can be about dudes and even can be "somewhat exclusionary to women" without being "casually misogynistic". There are two threads of conversation going within the realm of "women in Achewood", one of which is that Achewood's universe and presentation may be exclusionary and hostile to women, the other is one poster who said the thing about toning down casual misogyny in the cartoon, and a few people who responded to them, mainly asking what they meant.
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Mar 4, 2013 19:59
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I think the one thing we can all agree on is that you can do whatever you want in life. E: should add it's slightly  due to guys really doing whatever they wanted in life. 
Sydney Bottocks fucked around with this message at 22:20 on Mar 4, 2013 |
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Mar 4, 2013 20:07
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Picking your favorite strip is kind of like playin' a basketball game, where I am the winner.
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Mar 4, 2013 20:23
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Revol posted:I forget this storyline, post a link? Is that the one where he and Nice Pete go off on their 'High School' adventure? It's the last arc, Fast Times At Achewood High It's really dark and strange. Also there's a good half dozen comics that make reference to Teodor's latent homosexuality (or urges, or doubts, or whatever), I like that it's treated as no big deal really. EDIT: As a for instance, I just read this one on my re-read: http://achewood.com/index.php?date=01042006
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Mar 4, 2013 20:34
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Honestly, the only way I can see Achewood truly being called misogynist is if you think every single work of fiction ever has to involve women heavily or it is Bad and Wrong. The women in it are definitely background presences, but they're mostly portrayed pretty well; Molly is a prop for Beef most of the time, for example, but not at the expense of her own agency. It just ends up working out that way because Beef is one of the main characters along with Ray and Teodor, and the side characters in general tend to be props for the main characters to some extent or another. And Polly is one of the only sex workers I've seen portrayed positively in fiction who wasn't the Pretty Woman "Hooker with a Heart of Gold" archetype; in fact, the strip almost delights in avoiding that canard and showing her as an intellectual equal to Cornelius right from the start.
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Mar 4, 2013 20:36
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BitterAvatar posted:Picking your favorite strip is kind of like playin' a basketball game, where I am the winner. Hell yes, this is one of my favorites too. Still have the print hanging on my wall.
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Mar 4, 2013 20:41
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Fine, I'm going to go ahead and be the horse's rear end that has to ask this fool of a question: What the hell is a Crispy Stella?
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Mar 4, 2013 20:43
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Filthy Haiku posted:Fine, I'm going to go ahead and be the horse's rear end that has to ask this fool of a question: A Stella Artois that is cold.
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Mar 4, 2013 20:46
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I think it's a reference to Stella Artois beer?
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Mar 4, 2013 20:47
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A Crispy Stella is something that has crunchy golden action.
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Mar 4, 2013 20:47
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Filthy Haiku posted:Fine, I'm going to go ahead and be the horse's rear end that has to ask this fool of a question: A nice and frosty Stella Artois beer? EDIT: damnit, that'll teach me not to refresh.
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Mar 4, 2013 20:48
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Filthy Haiku posted:Fine, I'm going to go ahead and be the horse's rear end that has to ask this fool of a question: Stella Artois beer, chilled to the point where you would describe it as "crisp" and refreshing.
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Mar 4, 2013 20:48
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BitterAvatar posted:Picking your favorite strip is kind of like playin' a basketball game, where I am the winner. I love the single panel after anyone asks Pete something, where he sits up straight and looks dead ahead, like he's slowly processing exactly what he's going to say. And also that he's not wearing any pants and that just goes without saying.
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Mar 4, 2013 22:02
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Sigma-X posted:If you build a cast to quotas you get loving Captain Planet ad infinitum. Nothing to do with the argument/discussion at hand, but this reminded me of AGH I am SO CLOSE to figuring out how to get syndicated
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Mar 4, 2013 22:03
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I think the lack of female characters in Achewood is really part of a bigger cultural problem where there aren't good female characters in almost anything. Like, when Chris started this whole thing it probably just didn't occur to him to put any women in the cast. And I also think he began to notice this problem in some of later Achewood, (Polly, the Return of Tina) but those storylines and characters never really took off, maybe because he didn't know how to handle them, or maybe because the world of Achewood was too full for them to really find a place. In any case I hope Tina gets more to do if the series gets picked up. Tina is lots of fun.
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Mar 4, 2013 23:45
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As a man I'm always scared that when I write women characters I'll get told I'm writing them badly because I'm writing from a man's point of view. But then I might end up only including women in minor roles which is worse. I think writing people from other genders, races, and social classes is something a lot of writers are uncomfortable with especially when they start out.
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Mar 5, 2013 00:07
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When you get down to it, you shouldn't write a gender, you should right a good character. If you write a good character with a female pronoun, you've written a great woman character. It's that simple.
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Mar 5, 2013 01:12
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rantmo posted:When you get down to it, you shouldn't write a gender, you should right a good character. If you write a good character with a female pronoun, you've written a great woman character. It's that simple. It really isn't that simple because that implies that any good character with a pronoun swap would still make sense and it isn't always the case. You think Ray or Roast Beef or Teodor would make just as much sense if they were women, changing nothing else about the character?
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Mar 5, 2013 01:21
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rantmo posted:When you get down to it, you shouldn't write a gender, you should right a good character. If you write a good character with a female pronoun, you've written a great woman character. It's that simple. I don't think it's that simple. Gender is more than a pronoun, it shapes one's experiences and, thus, one's thoughts and feelings and actions.
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Mar 5, 2013 01:22
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rantmo posted:When you get down to it, you shouldn't write a gender, you should right a good character. If you write a good character with a female pronoun, you've written a great woman character. It's that simple. I dont see gender man.
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Mar 5, 2013 01:24
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I'm not suggesting that context and setting aren't important but it's not like writing good women characters is some arcane, inscrutable process.
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Mar 5, 2013 01:37
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rantmo posted:I'm not suggesting that context and setting aren't important but it's not like writing good women characters is some arcane, inscrutable process. No, but if the writer is a man who has not had many good experiences with women in his life, the women you write will either be grossly unsympathetic or will clearly just be men with flipped pronouns, and neither really makes for a satisfyingly realistic female character.
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Mar 5, 2013 01:39
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I think a lot of Achewood's issues with women come from the fact that it's a comic about masculinity. Almost every Achewood comic is about the characters dealing with what it means to be a man at various stages of life. Ray does, Roast Beef does, Philippe does, Cornelius does, Teodor does. Every woman character in the comic exists from a male character's perspective because the entire comic is about male characters' perspectives. This doesn't excuse the problematic depictions of women in the comic, but women are never going to be a central focus of it.
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Mar 5, 2013 02:02
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Yeah, I don't think anyone is seriously suggesting that Achewood hates women or anything. On the other hand, it's also a webcomic that had a plotline where one of the main characters became rich and was immediately seduced by a woman out to steal his money via having his kid, followed by the other main character declaring that this is a thing that happens all the time, so trying to claim that it's never brushed against misogyny and lovely depictions of women, intentionally or otherwise, is a bit ridiculous.
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Mar 5, 2013 02:11
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Roland Jones posted:Yeah, I don't think anyone is seriously suggesting that Achewood hates women or anything. On the other hand, it's also a webcomic that had a plotline where one of the main characters became rich and was immediately seduced by a woman out to steal his money via having his kid, followed by the other main character declaring that this is a thing that happens all the time, so trying to claim that it's never brushed against misogyny and lovely depictions of women, intentionally or otherwise, is a bit ridiculous. 
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Mar 5, 2013 02:16
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I posit that Onstand got divorced after he smacked his wife around with a side of Canadian Bacon. He hates women so much, he bacons them. C'mon people, IT'S SPELLED OUT IN THE COMIC!
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Mar 5, 2013 02:16
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FactsAreUseless posted:I think a lot of Achewood's issues with women come from the fact that it's a comic about masculinity. Almost every Achewood comic is about the characters dealing with what it means to be a man at various stages of life. Ray does, Roast Beef does, Philippe does, Cornelius does, Teodor does. Every woman character in the comic exists from a male character's perspective because the entire comic is about male characters' perspectives. This doesn't excuse the problematic depictions of women in the comic, but women are never going to be a central focus of it. I agree with this, for sure. It's an interesting aspect of Achewood, and not necessarily one I would want Onstad to change in a way that's too deliberate. It just bothers me when people can't talk about the subject.
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Mar 5, 2013 02:20
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FactsAreUseless posted:Post-marriage Achewood doesn't count. That one actually came before Roast Beef got married. Or are you referring to Onstad's own marriage? I don't know the whole timeline of things related to his life.
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Mar 5, 2013 02:20
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Fister Roboto posted:And also that he's not wearing any pants and that just goes without saying.
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Mar 5, 2013 02:21
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Roland Jones posted:That one actually came before Roast Beef got married. Or are you referring to Onstad's own marriage? I don't know the whole timeline of things related to his life.
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Mar 5, 2013 02:25
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FactsAreUseless posted:I meant Beef's, but I haven't gone through the archives in a while. Yeah, it's the Roast Beef: Entrepreneur arc, not too long before the wedding happens; only arc between the two is Nice Pete writing Ray's autobiography. Iffy things start here, and then two pages later we get this, which is, yeah. I think it speaks for itself.
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Mar 5, 2013 02:33
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Locus posted:I agree with this, for sure. It's an interesting aspect of Achewood, and not necessarily one I would want Onstad to change in a way that's too deliberate. It just bothers me when people can't talk about the subject. Who said you can't talk about it? I think people have merely said that expecting strong female characters in a comic about dudes and dude relationships is like hoping to find blueberries in your strawberry patch. Might happen, but not necessary.
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Mar 5, 2013 02:43
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I don't think Achewood's misogynistic because it doesn't discriminate between the alive people with eggs and the alive people with testicles.
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Mar 5, 2013 05:40
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