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punk rebel ecks posted:Why are Latin Americans so warry of this? What does that have to do with anything at all that he was a Bus Driver in the 80s? He's had years of political experience. This. Brazil's Luis Inácio 'Lula' was a lathe operator coming from a horrendously poor background. Think what you will about his policies, he was and is a _lethal_ political operator, knowing where to form alliances, how to draw support and grow power bases and how to neck-punch the opposittion while still looking clean. When you can't count on daddy's big bucks and friends to pave your way, it actually takes talent and bloody-mindedness to get ahead in a union, party or political system. Not saying every former-blue-collar out there is gifted, but I wouldn't be surprised if they fared out better on average than a policial clan's latest heir.
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Mar 6, 2013 16:35
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etalian posted:Pictures of dead Chavez gives Exxon CEO a hard-on. I dunno that Judge who got raped while jailed for criticizing Chavez might be happy.
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Mar 6, 2013 16:53
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Quasimango posted:Yes, it is very intersting what the CIA did 52 years ago. Personally, I find reading about the Austro-Hungarian Empire very interesting. Do you have anything to add that's relevant to the year of our lord 2013? How about waterboarding people in secret prisons? That seems like a Pretty Bad Thing they did very recently.
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Mar 6, 2013 17:01
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^^^ The CIA have done all kinds of poo poo, half the time they seem like a bunch of kids with too much power and influence playing games. The details always come out after the fact, if at all, so the argument that 'we haven't heard of them doing anything recently' is bloody minded ignorance. Nobody's even claiming they killed Chavez, just that there's historical precedent for exactly this kind of thing, many times over, so it's a bit weird to outright say 'they definitely don't do this kind of thing anymore!'punk rebel ecks posted:Why are Latin Americans so warry of this? What does that have to do with anything at all that he was a Bus Driver in the 80s? He's had years of political experience. This kind of attitude is in no way a unique feature of Latin America. Like ekuNNN says, it's classism - a combination of protecting the idea of a political class made up solely of the 'right' kind of people (wealthy, educated at elite schools, pro-business interests), so people don't start accepting the idea that the poors might be capable of holding office as well as their betters, and fear of what they'll do when they're in there. The interests of everyone with wealth and power is in protecting and reinforcing the system that supports them, and they make good use of that influence to spread these messages. It happens literally everywhere baka kaba fucked around with this message at 17:11 on Mar 6, 2013 |
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Mar 6, 2013 17:05
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shots shots shots posted:Thank god for the ability to emigrate! Emigration is usually only an option for the not-poor. quote:How about waterboarding people in secret prisons? That seems like a Pretty Bad Thing they did very recently. Torture, rendition, forced disappearances... And that's just the stuff we know. Dunno how may CIA cells we have in Egypt, Syria, etc. Zuhzuhzombie!! fucked around with this message at 17:09 on Mar 6, 2013 |
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Mar 6, 2013 17:06
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Grand Theft Autobot posted:How about waterboarding people in secret prisons? That seems like a Pretty Bad Thing they did very recently. Or, y'know, trying to overthrow the democratically elected leftist government of Venezuela with a military coup. Wait, what am I saying, the Cold War is over, the CIA would never need to do that nowadays!
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Mar 6, 2013 17:10
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This thread had touched on some of the more radical and Leninist leaning elements of Chavismo a while back. Anything from those guys?
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Mar 6, 2013 17:11
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A Syrian opposition twitter feed: "Breaking News: Meeting now taking place between Hafez al-Assad, Hugo Chavez, and Muammar al-Qaddafi. According to leaked reports, the heat has risen sharply."
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Mar 6, 2013 17:36
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az jan jananam posted:A Syrian opposition twitter feed: "Breaking News: Meeting now taking place between Hafez al-Assad, Hugo Chavez, and Muammar al-Qaddafi. According to leaked reports, the heat has risen sharply." So they've been reading Drudge?
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Mar 6, 2013 19:35
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Goddamn, "Chávez was murdered" is actually going to become a Thing now, isn't it? 
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Mar 6, 2013 19:51
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beer_war posted:Goddamn, "Chávez was murdered" is actually going to become a Thing now, isn't it? People honestly think 9/11 was an inside job...yes it's going to be a thing now. I'm sure we'll get some lovely youtube documentaries out of it.
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Mar 6, 2013 19:53
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beer_war posted:Goddamn, "Chávez was murdered" is actually going to become a Thing now, isn't it? Conspiracy theories are the best theories.
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Mar 6, 2013 19:54
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El Hefe posted:Maduro is an ex bus driver, I can't see him improving on what Chavez did. What exactly does him driving a bus have to do with anything?
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Mar 6, 2013 20:20
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beer_war posted:Goddamn, "Chávez was murdered" is actually going to become a Thing now, isn't it?
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Mar 6, 2013 20:21
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Zeitgueist posted:What exactly does him driving a bus have to do with anything? I think someone already answered this: Classism. It is the same reasoning behind much of the US's domestic policy. Only the glorious MBA elite and their trust fund can save us from the vices of the poor dreck.
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Mar 6, 2013 20:26
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ufarn posted:At least only on the left, though. I haven't seen anyone outside of Venezuela seriously assert this, so I don't think it will very common given that he was a smoker. Having said that, I've pointed out earlier in the thread that it's not exactly a crazy fringe belief to suspect the CIA of trying to assassinate socialist leaders.
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Mar 6, 2013 20:27
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Are there any Venezuelans on here that don't dislike Chavez?
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Mar 6, 2013 20:41
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Forgive me for wanting to have someone studied and prepared as our president instead of Chavez' current BFF, you don't have to be of the elite to hold a university title here in Venezuela either so you can drop that classism thing now. The only reason Maduro is going to win the election is because the opposition here is beyond inept.
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Mar 6, 2013 20:55
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El Hefe posted:Forgive me for wanting to have someone studied and prepared as our president instead of Chavez' current BFF, you don't have to be of the elite to hold a university title here in Venezuela either so you can drop that classism thing now. Maduro was a union organizer, an elected politician, and has been in leadership positions for over a decade. I'm not going to drop the classism thing simply because you asked me to. It shows every sign of being the case.
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Mar 6, 2013 20:59
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a bad enough dude posted:So they've been reading Drudge? No, they quite possibly have friends or family that have been slaughtered or imprisoned by a former comrade of the late president. az jan jananam fucked around with this message at 21:03 on Mar 6, 2013 |
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Mar 6, 2013 21:01
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Zeitgueist posted:Maduro was a union organizer, an elected politician, and has been in leadership positions for over a decade. So have hundreds of other politicians in the country doesn't mean they have to be our president.
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Mar 6, 2013 21:02
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El Hefe posted:So have hundreds of other politicians in the country doesn't mean they have to be our president. Okay, so how exactly does him being a former bus driver matter?
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Mar 6, 2013 21:05
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El Hefe posted:So have hundreds of other politicians in the country doesn't mean they have to be our president. The point is the fact he was a bus driver instead of going to university has nothing to do with anything. He has actual political, organisational experience so judge him on that. Sneering at someone's background over any other more relevant considerations is straight up classism
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Mar 6, 2013 21:06
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Zeitgueist posted:Okay, so how exactly does him being a former bus driver matter? He's great at networking and getting elected, big deal, he should be an union organizer at most. And he's starting out violating the constitution which says the president of the Asamblea Nacional has to the the interim president in this situation but since he doesn't get along with Diosdado they are doing whatever the gently caress they want.
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Mar 6, 2013 21:16
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Zeitgueist posted:Okay, so how exactly does him being a former bus driver matter? Same reason why every president and major politician is a Ivy School grad in the US. It's just in Latin America they occasionally have people elected into power from outside the political class. Sometimes they get to die of natural causes too, but that is way more occasional.
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Mar 6, 2013 21:16
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El Hefe posted:He's great at networking and getting elected, big deal, he should be an union organizer at most. Again, none of this has anything to do with him being a bus driver. At least own up to your classism. If you have constitutional reasons for disliking someone, fine. Though I can't imagine why someone who shits on bus drivers would dislike a socialist leader.... 
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Mar 6, 2013 21:20
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Again, forgive me for wanting to have someone educated as our next president, we have had enough with Chavez' insults. There's nothing wrong with telling 'gently caress you' to the US and other countries you don't like but there are ways of doing that without spelling it out, see: China.
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Mar 6, 2013 21:24
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El Hefe posted:Again, forgive me for wanting to have someone educated as our next president, we have had enough with Chavez' insults. There's nothing wrong with telling 'gently caress you' to the US and other countries you don't like but there are ways of doing that without spelling it out, see: China. Helping lead a country for a decade is more then enough education to lead a country.
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Mar 6, 2013 21:27
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a bad enough dude posted:Helping lead a country for a decade is more then enough education to lead a country. Yeah and he's done such a marvelous job.
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Mar 6, 2013 21:29
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El Hefe posted:Again, forgive me for wanting to have someone educated as our next president, we have had enough with Chavez' insults. There's nothing wrong with telling 'gently caress you' to the US and other countries you don't like but there are ways of doing that without spelling it out, see: China. Is Pedro Carmona still alive? Now there's a supremely qualified fellow. He can just spontaneously grow a chest full of fruit salad again and step up to do his duty! Also, want me to offer a list of Latin American rulers with degrees and PhDs that borked their countries to hell? I can go quite a while without leaving my native Brazil.
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Mar 6, 2013 21:38
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az jan jananam posted:No, they quite possibly have friends or family that have been slaughtered or imprisoned by a former comrade of the late president. And Hillary Clinton described Hosni Mubarak as a personal friend of her family. Chavez isn't unique in having dealings with evil regimes and having nice diplomatic lovefests going in either direction, please don't start a derail about Syria.
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Mar 6, 2013 21:41
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El Hefe posted:Yeah and he's done such a marvelous job. Not to keep up the derail but people keep calling you out because you won't step back from what you said. Earlier you said "Maduro is an ex bus driver, I can't see him improving on what Chavez did." Whatever grievances you have with Maduro, it is classist and offensive to say that because he was at one time a bus driver, he will make a bad president. Criticizing him isn't why people are jumping down your throat, it's because you insist that having at one time been a bus driver he will make a bad president.
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Mar 6, 2013 21:43
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a bad enough dude posted:Helping lead a country for a decade is more then enough education to lead a country. Ignoring the specific educational qualifications, there is something to be said for declining to endorse a man who was primary architect of a foreign policy which largely consisted of "the enemy of America is my friend" simply based on that alone. I don't particularly endorse that behavior regardless whether it's the US or Venezuela or Russia that's saying that the "enemy of my enemy is my friend".
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Mar 6, 2013 21:44
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El Hefe posted:Again, forgive me for wanting to have someone educated as our next president, we have had enough with Chavez' insults. There's nothing wrong with telling 'gently caress you' to the US and other countries you don't like but there are ways of doing that without spelling it out, see: China. Why do I get the feeling that by "Educated" you mean some upper class twit willing to privatize everything and go back to loving the poor like they're an affront to the glorious free market for even existing?
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Mar 6, 2013 21:44
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Gonzo McFee posted:Why do I get the feeling that by "Educated" you mean some upper class twit willing to privatize everything and go back to loving the poor like they're an affront to the glorious free market for even existing? Not at all, like I said you don't need to be rich or in debt forever to hold a university degree here, education is free at all levels and it has been that way since quite a while.
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Mar 6, 2013 21:47
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El Hefe posted:Not at all, like I said you don't need to be rich or in debt forever to hold a university degree here, education is free at all levels and it has been that way since quite a while. Free perhaps, but... quote:Higher education remains free under the 1999 constitution and was receiving 35% of the education budget, even though it accounted for only 11% of the student population. More than 70% of university students come from the wealthiest quintile of the population. To address this problem, instead of improving primary and secondary education, the government established the Bolivarian University system in 2003, which designed to democratize access to "higher education" by offering heavily politicised study programmes to the public with only minimal entrance requirements. Hmm...
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Mar 6, 2013 21:49
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punk rebel ecks posted:Are there any Venezuelans on here that don't dislike Chavez?  to join and people here and in the GBS thread kept asking why none of the Venezuelans were in favour of Chavez or even tried to use this as a point against him.
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Mar 6, 2013 22:33
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Deceitful Penguin posted:I love this question to bits. We're in an English speaking forum where you have to pay Funny thing, I spoke to some Cuban expats in Miami and it turns out they don't like Castro.
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Mar 6, 2013 22:38
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Deceitful Penguin posted:I love this question to bits. We're in an English speaking forum where you have to pay So this argument that I've seen bandied about, that the reductions in poverty, the increase in median income and access to education and health care are all unsustainable and are short term pandering that's going to sink the Venezuelan economy in the long term. Is that accurate?
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Mar 6, 2013 22:44
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Didn't the opposition promise something like a debit card with 450 allowance monthly to the poorest? And they didn't bite?
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Mar 6, 2013 23:00
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