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PeterWeller posted:Because it doesn't actually matter in practice. You're rarely going to use the fixed healing rates because your party has a cleric to take care of that sort of thing. What, your party doesn't include a cleric? Are you sure you're playing D&D?
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Mar 7, 2013 19:03
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I always thought of the increase in hit points between classes as a general indicator of toughness. Like, the wizard healing back to his full 4 HP while the fighter still has a few days to go to get back up to 10 doesn't mean that the wizard is bouncing around in the picture of health while the fighter is all hosed up, but more that the damage that the fighter suffered was more than enough to flatten two wizards put together and that only someone incredibly tough could hope to survive it. EDIT Plus since there aren't any wound penalties and only the last 1 HP matters as to whether or not you are dying its just a representation of the fighters greater durability and vitality, not that the wizard recovers from getting stabbed faster.
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Mar 7, 2013 19:05
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Yes, very healthy people can ostensibly take more punishment than frail people, but doesn't it also stand to reason that they'd recover faster? Just have characters add their CON bonus to the healing rate. This doesn't remove the underlying problem that mechanics involving "do nothing for X days" are inherently stupid, but at least the whole party can do nothing in a way that scales to their individual "heartiness". "The option to rest longer". Christ. "Yes, Mordamir, you may command the power of flame and darkness, and bend reality itself to your will, but I! I may rest longer."
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Mar 7, 2013 19:51
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But I mean, I don't think that problem is that Fighters have more health. I think people understand intellectually that the greater HP of the Fighter represents greater vitality, and that Wizard has less, and even a Wizard at full HP is less vital than a Fighter at half. The problem is the metagame decision to sit around waiting to heal. I'm the Fighter. Let's say I have 35 HP. Let's say the Wizard has, I don't know, 12. Both me and the Wizard are reduced to 6 HP, respectively, during our last adventure. Once we get back to town, the Wizard heals back to full, right? He's at 12 HP. Around the same time, the Fighter will be at 12 HP. How do we rectify that? We can say that the Wizard's best is only a fraction of the Fighter's best, and that the Wizard's idea of 'healthy' is a shadow of the Fighter. I think everybody gets that. The problem is that the Wizard is 'healed', and the Fighter says, "No, Randolph, I don't feel quite ready to adventure yet. Clearly we have healed to the same level of basic functionality - walking, talking, reading books - but I could really use some more R&R. Like maybe another week." In practice if a Fighter wants to work at full capacity he has to do so by spending more time doing nothing. That seems weird. What's happening? Is he healing? Resting? What? If he's healing, what exactly is he healing? His morale? Clearly if HP are physical wounds, he's at least as functional as the Wizard at 12 HP, so what's happening?
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Mar 7, 2013 19:57
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Pangalin posted:"The option to rest longer". Christ. "Yes, Mordamir, you may command the power of flame and darkness, and bend reality itself to your will, but I! I may rest longer." It's cool, they'll introduce Leomund's Lazy Layabout or something later so wizards can also tap into the eldritch ritual that is sleeping in.
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Mar 7, 2013 20:00
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Mendrian posted:In practice if a Fighter wants to work at full capacity he has to do so by spending more time doing nothing. That seems weird. What's happening? Is he healing? Resting? What? If he's healing, what exactly is he healing? His morale? Clearly if HP are physical wounds, he's at least as functional as the Wizard at 12 HP, so what's happening? DnD is a simulation of whatever you want it to simulate. Maybe the Fighter is preturnaturally luckier than the wizard but it takes time for luck to cling to his skin so at at 12 HP both he and the wizard are equivalent but tomorrow more luck will be on him and he'll have 13. Hell, HP could be a representation of Ennui and the poor stupid fighter has more HP because he is incapable of seeing how truly pointless existence so over time becomes more fulfilled and happy while the wizard is stuck unable to ever muster up more enthusiasm than 12 because his years of study have made him realize that ultimately we all die alone. Its functionally irrelevant what HP represents other than that it represents the states of "does things" and "does not do things." The issue with the differences is that restoring them at even rates results in meaningless downtime while at the same time introducing a ton of mechanics and making other ones more difficult. The Monster Manual never presumes you'll fight creatures wounded and as a result you can only plan an "optimum" encounter and rely on the player to have a fudged "my party is wounded" encounter. Barudak fucked around with this message at 20:05 on Mar 7, 2013 |
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Mar 7, 2013 20:01
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The problem is this is borderline on being an issue which shouldn't even be in the rules at all and instead needs to be calculated and ruled out in explicit detail. Look at what most people said above, these rules are largely ignored because of stuff like Cleric healing, potions, or just DM's hand waving it away in order to speed thing up. Even if it is important in 90% of cases it will be something like "your party rests in town for 3/5/10 days, fast-forward till then." If anything they should explicitly say "healing outside of adventures should be something left up to the DM and players based on the flavor of campaign they are looking for". Literally the only two scenarios where this even matters is where time is of the essence or if the DM plans to attack the heroes while they are already hurt for an added challenge. And if the DM wants to do this he can engineer a scenario for it to happen no matter what version of the rules they are using. If they are going to spin their wheels on issues like this they might as well discuss the detailed reasoning behind the brand new encumbrance chart.
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Mar 7, 2013 20:07
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Just let the fighter heal HP equal to its level squared per day. Enter the Age of Quadratic Fighters! 
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Mar 7, 2013 20:11
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If this cannot be achieved then I don't want to play:
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Mar 7, 2013 20:12
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I think my favorite part of D&D Next is when the developers talk about problems that were already solved in 4e.
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Mar 7, 2013 20:14
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Dr Pepper posted:I think my favorite part of D&D Next is when the developers talk about problems that were already solved in 4e. If the last five years just disappeared in a time vortex, Next might look like a reasonably interesting, if not particularly innovative refinement of 3.5. After seeing 4e's take on identifying and fixing those elements? Not a chance. And hearing professional, paid game designers flail around either not recognising the problems or worse, being lazy and trying to handwave them as "oh, it's part of the feeeeel of D&D" is frustrating to no end.
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Mar 7, 2013 20:31
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Dr Pepper posted:I think my favorite part of D&D Next is when the developers talk about problems that were already solved in 4e. Stop posting like this. While this is a more mellow thread than many, smug white noise drivebys are not going to do it any favors. If you want to contribute, do so.
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Mar 7, 2013 20:34
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And when they find a minor issue with 4e, like quote:In 4th Edition, where healing surges are a percentage of your total hit points, characters still need varying amounts of rest; I can’t count how many times one player would simply spend a single healing surge during a short rest to regain hit points, while others would want to spend multiple short rests allowing the warlord or cleric to refresh their healing mechanics to get the most out of their healing surges. they aren't interested in using a minor tweak that would fix that entirely (no encounter powers outside of encounters? no consecutive short rests? unlimited use of healing bonuses in a single short rest?). But no, clearly the solution here is to walk back everything to 1979. (As if that 4e problem has anything to do with the question of classes healing at different rates.)
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Mar 7, 2013 20:38
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Winson_Paine posted:Stop posting like this. While this is a more mellow thread than many, smug white noise drivebys are not going to do it any favors. If you want to contribute, do so. Very well. More content then. The problem of healing outside of combat was solved with healing surges healing 1/4 max HP. The bizarre situation of a 10 HP weakling getting back to full health faster then a 100 HP god of war didn't exist any more. It's such a simple and elegant that the only reason not to use it is because you're deliberately ignoring any sense of game design advancement in a fruitless grasp for nostalgia. Then they make these long, meandering articles talking about the problem and then going "Welp. Can't do anything about it because that's just how D&D is. And that is how it shall forever be." In other news, making your own bread with whole wheat flower and oats is delicious. It's less crumbly then white bread too. Put a little butter on it and you have heaven in your mouth.
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Mar 7, 2013 20:45
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Everyone is forgetting that Next actually has a Hit Die healing mechanic with proportional healing. Fighters with a ten minute rest heal d10+con.
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Mar 7, 2013 21:05
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Bob Quixote posted:I always thought of the increase in hit points between classes as a general indicator of toughness. Like, the wizard healing back to his full 4 HP while the fighter still has a few days to go to get back up to 10 doesn't mean that the wizard is bouncing around in the picture of health while the fighter is all hosed up, but more that the damage that the fighter suffered was more than enough to flatten two wizards put together and that only someone incredibly tough could hope to survive it.
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Mar 7, 2013 21:05
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Splicer posted:Fighters have more HP because they're supposed to lose a lot of HP. Making the Fighter recover HP at the same rate as the Wizard is like making the Wizard recover Spells at the same rate as the Fighter. And thats a bad thing? Bring true Vancian Magic to the system. Once cast forever lost!
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Mar 7, 2013 21:07
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ritorix posted:Everyone is forgetting that Next actually has a Hit Die healing mechanic with proportional healing. It has that in the current playtests, but Mike Mearls has indicated that the Hit Die and proportional healing mechanics will likely be dropped as a core mechanic in favor of Cleric-only healing.
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Mar 7, 2013 21:08
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Halloween Jack posted:A new Next Q&A is posted! I'm... really not sure what he was trying to prove with that article. I mean, he talks about "Well, if the Fighter and Mage started at the same HP levels, and lost the same amount of HP, then they would be able to rest and be back in the action at the same time. But the fighter has more HP, so he has to rest longer to get back to full strength. There's nothing odd about that at all. By the way, we don't actually use fixed rate healing when we playtest, we still use hitdice". This is something that was fixed with percentile healing rates, and is unfortunate that they don't want to do that anymore. Hopefully when they do start playtesting with the fixed healing rates, they realize how silly it actually is. As an aside, does anyone have any recommendations for a drink for someone who doesn't like beer, but is partial to Port, Jagermeister and Creme de Menthe (last two are typically used in mixers)
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Mar 7, 2013 21:11
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Randalor posted:As an aside, does anyone have any recommendations for a drink for someone who doesn't like beer, but is partial to Port, Jagermeister and Creme de Menthe (last two are typically used in mixers) Absinthe. I know its not a beer but palate wise its similar to Jaegermeister and the Creme de Menthe mixed. Louche well my friend. Louche well.
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Mar 7, 2013 21:14
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ritorix posted:Everyone is forgetting that Next actually has a Hit Die healing mechanic with proportional healing. Fighters with a ten minute rest heal d10+con.  ?
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Mar 7, 2013 21:15
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Well Creme de Menthe is basically going to lend itself to dessert/after-dinner drinks of some sort. I'm assuming they've tried Grasshoppers already, which is like the signature Creme de Menthe drink? If not, it's equal parts Creme de Menthe, Creme de Cacao, and actual cream, shaken with ice and strained. There are a lot of variations on this, like substituting vodka or coffee instead of cream. Also it makes good milkshakes if they're into that sort of thing.
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Mar 7, 2013 21:16
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Littlefinger posted:Once a day, I believe, and even that is a goner (or an optional rule at most), per Mearls' 2/18/2013 Legends&Lore. We should just embrace clerical healing, as 'most groups have rolled with that in the past.' It was once per day per level. 5th level fighter heals 5d10+ con*5. So basically less frequent surges that don't activate in combat, but also weren't a limit to how often you could be healed.
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Mar 7, 2013 21:32
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Actually the issue is that his post completely misses the actual problem, which is more or less the norm. Of course "the fighter takes a bit longer to rest" doesn't matter too much, unless you're playing in a very old school game where you roll for random encounters while the party sleeps, and even then only if they rest in the dungeon. Few people care about that. The ACTUAL problem is that the wizard needs one cleric spell to heal while the fighter needs four or five. That's the REAL thing 4e solved - your healing spells healed a percentage of health, not just a single lump sum, so the fighter didn't get less bang for his buck then other classes got, and clerics didn't have to be a constant IV drip. At this point I don't know if they're not talking about that intentionally to throw out a strawman, or if they legit don't realize what the problem is. And when can't tell your ignorance from your malevolence, that's a bad thing.
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Mar 8, 2013 00:28
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Speaking of strawmen! Mike Mearls: So for people pinging me with warlord questions: Did you play that class to be a leader, or to be a healer? Again, I dunno if he's intentionally being disingenuous or if he somehow doesn't realize that leaders heal or that a lot of warlords liked having BOTH, but frankly I'm leaning towards the former. This is just garbage rhetoric.
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Mar 8, 2013 00:42
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ProfessorCirno posted:At this point I don't know if they're not talking about that intentionally to throw out a strawman, or if they legit don't realize what the problem is. Quite frankly, if they're not listening to most feedback (and it seems this is the case) the difference is academic.
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Mar 8, 2013 01:09
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I think my mother followed the recipie off the back of the Bisquick box and just dumped them straight in with the chicken after it's been de-boned and thrown back into the pot. I find it kind of... dumb... that cleric is going to be the only source of healing the game. What if I wanted to play a non-cleric healer? I don't like the idea of being tied to a single class every time I want to play a role. Wasn't it even Gygax who said something about HP not being physical toughness, but an abstraction of how much punishment one could take? The physical difference between a level 1 and a level 5 fighter wasn't that much, but the level 5 fighter knew how to shift in his armor better, or to throw his weapon infront of blows to reduce the damage they did? With that being said; magical healing shouldn't be in end-all, be-all of recovering HP. I've always imagined it in the way of something like; HP is closer to fatigue and stress than it is to your actual physical-wholeness. If you're at max HP, you're in peak condition; if you're low on HP, you've been 'worn down.' Maybe you're bruised, you're cut, but as long as you have 1 HP, you're still capable. If you got hit that brings you down beneath 1 HP; it's because you got careless -- You were worn down by constant fighting and a goblin got a cheap-shot in, or maybe you're a wizard and you were never really trained in how to fight in close quarters combat; which is why you only last a short amount of time before falling compared to the fighters. Abstracting HP out like that means that ideas like the Warlord or the Bard can 'Heal' you by sort of revitalizing you. A Warlord could yell at you, letting you know that you're forgetting to guard your right side, or a Bard could be reciting some Legend of old, which inspires you to do better. Your guts arn't being sucked back into your body because some dude is yelling at you and rubbing dirt into it, you're just fighting better because you got a Warlord there to look after you.
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Mar 8, 2013 04:00
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TalonDemonKing posted:I find it kind of... dumb... that cleric is going to be the only source of healing the game. What if I wanted to play a non-cleric healer? I don't like the idea of being tied to a single class every time I want to play a role. Well, they've also implied that other classes like Bards may have healing too (they say all kinds of poo poo and it's hard to keep straight, who loving knows at this point) so there's that. The overarching point they seem to be driving at though is that hitpoint restoration is going to be magical, whether it's Clerics or Bards or whoever. Warlords restoring hitpoints is dumb because something something William Wallace.
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Mar 8, 2013 04:11
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I don't remember if it was from a Legends and Lore or if it was from Mearls on twitter, but they plan for druids, bards, clerics and some paladins to have healing magic. TalonDemonKing posted:Abstracting HP out like that means that ideas like the Warlord or the Bard can 'Heal' you by sort of revitalizing you. A Warlord could yell at you, letting you know that you're forgetting to guard your right side, or a Bard could be reciting some Legend of old, which inspires you to do better. Your guts arn't being sucked back into your body because some dude is yelling at you and rubbing dirt into it, you're just fighting better because you got a Warlord there to look after you. This is how HP in D&D always worked, even back in the day, and I genuinely can't believe Mearls is either ignorant of every previous iteration of D&D or unimaginative enough to not realize the idea on his own but welp we have a podcast to prove me wrong
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Mar 8, 2013 04:19
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Mikan posted:This is how HP in D&D always worked, even back in the day, and I genuinely can't believe Mearls is either ignorant of every previous iteration of D&D or unimaginative enough to not realize the idea on his own but welp we have a podcast to prove me wrong There's a third possibility besides ignorance and lack of imagination which is that he understands perfectly well how hitpoints work and how abstract they are but he's pitching this particular spiel to try and hook people who get het up over Warlord healing. The cynicism angle, basically.
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Mar 8, 2013 04:56
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Are that many people really mad about Warlord healing? I remember playing 4E ever since it first came out, and the first time I heard of anyone being mad about Warlords healing was about a year or so ago when I first read a grogs.txt thread on these forums. I don't think there's all that many people that actually complain about it. Or maybe just no one I ever played with has.
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Mar 8, 2013 05:08
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I've always liked the idea of different roles being filled by different classes i.e. warlords, clerics, druids, etc. The power sources or whatever they were called. The only challenge is making them mechanically different enough so the differences do not just equate to fluff.
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Mar 8, 2013 05:21
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goldjas posted:Are that many people really mad about Warlord healing? I remember playing 4E ever since it first came out, and the first time I heard of anyone being mad about Warlords healing was about a year or so ago when I first read a grogs.txt thread on these forums. I don't think there's all that many people that actually complain about it. Or maybe just no one I ever played with has. "Warlords shouting wounds closed" has been an arrow in the quiver of people angry about 4E for a good long while, along with Fighters and Wizards are exactly the same, healing surges are like a belt of infinite health potions, characters are invincible superheroes, these mechanics are dissociated, etc. I mean, I don't have any hard numbers on dumb opinions about 4E held by percentage or anything, but yeah, there are people who are really mad about Warlord healing.
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Mar 8, 2013 05:24
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A rather smart fellow o're on RPG.net pointed out that warlords and warlord healing even if you don't use it makes a statement about 4e and what kind of game 4e is about. And that the fact Mearls is eviscerating warlords says a lot about THAT. I feel that the fact that he directly quotes edition war rhetoric with his "you can't shout a hand back on!" in turn speaks volumes.
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Mar 8, 2013 05:32
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goldjas posted:Are that many people really mad about Warlord healing? I remember playing 4E ever since it first came out, and the first time I heard of anyone being mad about Warlords healing was about a year or so ago when I first read a grogs.txt thread on these forums. I don't think there's all that many people that actually complain about it. Or maybe just no one I ever played with has. It's the usual simulation grog thing. It's not uncommon.
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Mar 8, 2013 05:32
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ProfessorCirno posted:A rather smart fellow o're on RPG.net pointed out that warlords and warlord healing even if you don't use it makes a statement about 4e and what kind of game 4e is about. And that the fact Mearls is eviscerating warlords says a lot about THAT. The spellcasting mechanics and random profession rolls for WFRP2 would be good ones for it. For 3e, I'd say the weapon focus feat, and concentration skill checks qualify, maybe. Or the text of the Polymorph spells.
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Mar 8, 2013 05:53
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I'm pretty sure that stackable multiclassing is good example of what 3.X was about in terms of design philosophy. An intent to make things customizable and modular that goes awry and causes lots of headaches.
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Mar 8, 2013 06:01
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ProfessorCirno posted:A rather smart fellow o're on RPG.net pointed out that warlords and warlord healing even if you don't use it makes a statement about 4e and what kind of game 4e is about. And that the fact Mearls is eviscerating warlords says a lot about THAT. That smart person is Old Kentucky Shark. Here, at the risk of running afoul of cross-forum posting etiquette, here's the post in full: Old Kentucky Shark posted:Stephenls [Stephen Lea Sheppard, an Exalted writer] once pointed out, in the context of Exalted's perfect defenses, that in certain respects they had greater rhetorical weight than mechanical weight; the fact that Heavenly Guardian Defense explicitly could parry nuclear explosions had an impact on people's perceptions of the game and its boundaries, even if they never actually used HGD in that fashion, or even at all. Its existence shaped the way people though about the game. It was the pinnacle of gaming mechanics as statement, not just as something to be used at the table*.
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Mar 8, 2013 06:03
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Kai Tave posted:That smart person is Old Kentucky Shark. ( I know Kai I said that to flatter him you ruined it  )Incidentally the argument against warlord heaing I've seen is to allow them to give Temp HP but...that's only more confusing! Ok so let's say we accept Mearls' HP as meat argument. What the hell is Temp HP then? Are you stapling extra stomachs onto yourself in case one gets stabbed? Is Temp HP just filling your body with even more blood then it can actually handle?
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Mar 8, 2013 06:19
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ProfessorCirno posted:( I know Kai I said that to flatter him you ruined it I ruin everything, you can ask around. Also I was looking for an excuse to quote that post anyway so thank youuuuuuuuu. quote:Incidentally the argument against warlord heaing I've seen is to allow them to give Temp HP but...that's only more confusing! Ok so let's say we accept Mearls' HP as meat argument. What the hell is Temp HP then? Are you stapling extra stomachs onto yourself in case one gets stabbed? Is Temp HP just filling your body with even more blood then it can actually handle? Meanwhile, the actual gameplay problem with Warlords handing out temp HP instead of restoring actual HP is that you have to design a system whereby Warlords can presciently administer temp HP shields to those party members who will need it in advance or as some form of interrupt and you have to set it up so they can give out enough temp HP to be comparable to restored hitpoints and Warlords can't bring anyone back from 0 HP or less with only temp HP and temp HP doesn't stack and temp HP doesn't last outside of combat which means if, say, the Rogue gets hurt by a trap then you're sort of out of luck there...all of which are things you could work around by revamping how temp HP work and re-engineering how the Warlord's abilities work as well. Or you could just let Warlords restore regular hitpoints and save yourself a lot of loving work. Also "damage mitigation abilities" start to slowly creep up to the dreaded shores of "narrative abilities" ala dramatic editing, which I can only imagine the outcry if the Next design team were to try and incorporate that sort of thing into D&D.
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Mar 8, 2013 06:47
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