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Adraeus posted:What have we been talking about? Like Dan says, none of those things contain an example of a time in which the cultists are not attempting to murder Lara. You are arguing that, in the story, Lara is a crazed killer who conciously makes the choice to kill the people on the island. For there to be a choice, there has to be another option. So I'd like you to provide an example of when in the story you felt Lara had a choice in her interactions with the solarii, and I'd like you to explain what the alternative to killing the people she killed was. And no, "letting people kill her" isn't a choice, nor is "surrender", because as we know from the very things you quoted the cultists kill every single woman they capture by either sacrificing them to supernatural creatures (who were cut from the game) or burning them alive. This isn't a rhetorical question. I would like you to answer it.
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Mar 12, 2013 23:56
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Adraeus posted:He asked a rhetorical question. I don't believe they did. I think they asked a pretty clear question with a definitive answer. Can you name one situation in the game like they described?
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Mar 12, 2013 23:57
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blackguy32 posted:Funny enough, in the original Tomb Raider, her actual human body count was 4 people total. That and a shitload of animals. That didn't last though. In Tomb Raider 2 she kills throngs of dudes in Venice, the Oil Rig, Tibet, she murders like 20 dudes with a shotgun in her mansion in the final level. In Tomb Raider 3 she kills most of the soldiers in Area 51, piles of London Underground cultists, a whole mine of workers, a ton of South Pacific blowdart-shooting tribesmen, etc. She's always been pretty cocky with her guns. Check out the cutscenes from confronting Larson in TR1 or the dudes in India in TR3, I think she has to have shed some blood in her youth to be cold like that when she's about to kill someone.
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Mar 12, 2013 23:57
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She basically followed the same career path as Rambo
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Mar 13, 2013 00:02
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Reveilled posted:Adreaus, other than the campfire scene with Matthias, can you name a single time in the game where, if Lara makes here presence known to the Solarii without attacking them, they will not eventually attempt to kill her? During the escape from the windy temple/Queen's tomb where they introduce the storm guard. I think most of the solarii are too busy running and dying to try to kill Lara.
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Mar 13, 2013 00:03
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AxeManiac posted:She basically followed the same career path as Rambo She couldn't turn it off. 
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Mar 13, 2013 00:06
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I said it in the Playstation games thread, that I think they should have just dropped the whole survivor angle. There never really seems to be a time where it really matters anyways. Electromax posted:That didn't last though. In Tomb Raider 2 she kills throngs of dudes in Venice, the Oil Rig, Tibet, she murders like 20 dudes with a shotgun in her mansion in the final level. In Tomb Raider 3 she kills most of the soldiers in Area 51, piles of London Underground cultists, a whole mine of workers, a ton of South Pacific blowdart-shooting tribesmen, etc. It didn't last because they quickly moved her out of the tombs. I thought the Last Revelation was definitely a much more well rounded experience.
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Mar 13, 2013 00:13
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deadicons posted:During the escape from the windy temple/Queen's tomb where they introduce the storm guard. I think most of the solarii are too busy running and dying to try to kill Laura. This would be the section in Himiko's tomb, where, after you have that confrontation with the Solarii in the bell room (and they attack you, unprovoked, twice), you fall through the floor and then the Oni burst in and you get a five second cutscene where the Solarii run past you to get away? That would be an example I suppose, but they were certainly trying to kill her right up until the moment at which the Oni attack, and in this scene Lara does not kill or even attempt to kill the Solarii either. So here, she certainly does not make the choice to kill them.
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Mar 13, 2013 00:19
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Dan Didio posted:I don't believe they did. I think they asked a pretty clear question with a definitive answer. Can you name one situation in the game like they described? For at least the last 600 posts, we've been talking about how the gameplay doesn't match the narrative presented in the cutscenes, journals, and ambient NPC conversations. The player — the player is not the character — doesn't have a choice about how to resolve conflicts because the developers don't provide meaningful choices-and-consequences gameplay. In fact, the developers even incentivize the player to play Lara Croft as a cold-blooded killer with a system that rewards bonus XP for headshots and perks that provide extra ammo when looting the dead. But Lara Croft, the character, who we should clearly assume to be an autonomous human being given that she is presented as such in the fiction, is in fact making decisions about what to do, how to do it, and why. But we, the players, can't impact any of Lara Croft's decisions or how she makes them because the game severely limits our ability to do so. We can move her around, maneuver her up and down, and make her shoot projectiles, but the story or narrative is not interactive. The game does not approach the player as an author; the player is an actor. And actors usually have no say regarding the script. (PDF: Player Agency in Interactive Narrative: Audience, Actor & Author) So, in the game, the Solarii are programmed to be always hostile toward the player-controlled Lara Croft action figure. In the story, however, the Solarii have more depth, even reservations about their master and what they've been commanded to do, and a strong desire to free themselves and get off the island. That's the criticism: Tomb Raider is a linear, interactive movie that provides the illusion of player agency. That's okay though. Tomb Raider is fun and entertaining, but the game, which is incompatible with its creative vision and narrative, is still disappointing. You may still disagree, but by now, I think I've said everything I could possibly say about this disconnect.
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Mar 13, 2013 00:39
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So no, I take it? EDIT: For the record, I do disagree, and I've posted numerous times in this thread as to why I don't think there's a disconnect the narrative that the gameplay presensts and that the 'story' presents through cutscenes, character moments, etc. etc. I think ascribing a notion of choice to Lara and asserting that she chooses to become a killer, as you earlier suggested, is a complete falsehood, regardless of how you feel about the morality of her actions, she is a victim of circumstance, as presented in the story by her being positioned as someone who is shipwrecked, forced into acting as a killer and protector, etc. etc. The gameplay reflects that. Giving Lara a 'choice' between killing and not would severely undermine every trapping of the narrative. The moral dilemma Lara faces is not wether it's acceptable for her to kill or not, and the game tells you this repeatedly, hell, Lara says it herself when she comments on how easy killing actually is. Shirkelton fucked around with this message at 00:46 on Mar 13, 2013 |
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Mar 13, 2013 00:42
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Adraeus posted:I think I've said everything I could possibly say about this disconnect.
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Mar 13, 2013 00:44
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Adraeus posted:BUT THE STORY And yet despite all this depth, every time Lara and the Solarii interact directly with one another in the story the Solarii attempt to capture her or her friends, kidnap her or her friends, or kill her or her friends. And despite all that depth, in the story it is established that all women who have wash up on the island before the survivors of the Endurance were murdered by the Solarii.
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Mar 13, 2013 00:45
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Gendo posted:Well that's a relief. I've seen a lot of poo poo on the forums but this thread is bringing out the craziest over analyzing goons I've seen. It's a bit terrifying but generally a good reinforcement for feeling normal.
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Mar 13, 2013 00:46
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Adraeus posted:For at least the last 600 posts, we've been talking about how the gameplay doesn't match the narrative presented in the cutscenes, journals, and ambient NPC conversations. This sounds like an awfully long-winded way of saying, "I wish this game was something that it wasn't." I mean, you can say there is a disconnect, but frankly, no, there isn't. Every time she kills someone, it's someone who is hostile. The Solarii characters sometimes have doubts, but if you listen to their full conversations, they still view Mathias' plan as the way to get off of the island. Period end. In every single conversation. And Mathias thinks you're stopping him from doing that- thusly, they want you dead. Now, you can argue that it would've been a better game with a lesser bodycount- I'd agree with you there. But you can't just take in half the narrative and use that to shoehorn the idea that there's a disconnect simply because it's a linear game that doesn't provide choice. It never even attempts to give you the illusion of choice. Every time Lara thinks she might have an option, before the cutscene is over, the hammer comes down and says "Nope." Her only option is to kill or die. And the gameplay reacts thusly. Edit: And let me reiterate again, in case it gets lost in my incredibly-one-way line of thinking above: This would've been a better game with a lesser bodycount and a lesser emphasis on killing dudes. It even would've made the story more comfortable. But that doesn't mean there's a disconnect there.
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Mar 13, 2013 00:46
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Gendo posted:Well that's a relief. That is an amazing avatar, Gendo. And yeah, the most obvious flaw with Adraeus thesis is that it doesn't address the fact that regardless of the moral trappings or how much the Solarii are victims of circumstance too, they do far more evil things than Lara does in the story and in the interest of far less noble goals.
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Mar 13, 2013 00:48
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quaunaut posted:Edit: And let me reiterate again, in case it gets lost in my incredibly-one-way line of thinking above: This would've been a better game with a lesser bodycount and a lesser emphasis on killing dudes. It even would've made the story more comfortable. But that doesn't mean there's a disconnect there. I'll agree with that. The only thing that really bothered me about the game's cutscenes was Lara's injured-when-the-plot-demands puncture wound, but that wasn't even in a cutscene/gameplay context, it was strictly within the cutscenes where sometimes she's in extreme pain from it and sometimes you'd think it wasn't even there. Well, that and the bit where Sam's about to be burnt and Lara decided to shoot a single arrow rather than start unloading her shotgun and assault rifle into the crowd but drat if that dumb decision isn't in a huge number of other games, films and books already.
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Mar 13, 2013 00:57
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Reveilled posted:And yet despite all this depth, every time Lara and the Solarii interact directly with one another in the story the Solarii attempt to capture her or her friends, kidnap her or her friends, or kill her or her friends. And despite all that depth, in the story it is established that all women who have wash up on the island before the survivors of the Endurance were murdered by the Solarii. The Solarii capture new survivors because those are the rules established by Father Mathias. The women are also killed by order of Mathias. The Solarii is a cult, Mathias the cult leader, and so the members are cult victims—brainwashed, brutalized, and stripped of their humanity. If they don't submit, they are killed. Father Mathias' inner circle controls the guns and the food. This is how gangs and cults control people. quaunaut posted:I mean, you can say there is a disconnect, but frankly, no, there isn't. Every time she kills someone, it's someone who is hostile. The Solarii characters sometimes have doubts, but if you listen to their full conversations, they still view Mathias' plan as the way to get off of the island. Period end. In every single conversation. And Mathias thinks you're stopping him from doing that- thusly, they want you dead. Nikolai is the First Solarii. He wrote, "Even with the rituals and storms and rampant killing, it's only a matter of time before they turn against him. And when they do, I'll be ready to take control." How would a Solarii take control? He would have a good number of loyal supporters, which means that, no, the Solarii are not completely aligned with Mathias. http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?action=showpost&postid=413366821
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Mar 13, 2013 00:59
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Reveilled posted:I'll agree with that. The only thing that really bothered me about the game's cutscenes was Lara's injured-when-the-plot-demands puncture wound, but that wasn't even in a cutscene/gameplay context, it was strictly within the cutscenes where sometimes she's in extreme pain from it and sometimes you'd think it wasn't even there. Well, that and the bit where Sam's about to be burnt and Lara decided to shoot a single arrow rather than start unloading her shotgun and assault rifle into the crowd but drat if that dumb decision isn't in a huge number of other games, films and books already. Yeah. And I also just think in general, it's easier from a plot level to be like, "Yeah she killed a dozen or two dozen dudes." than "She killed 90+ people in about a 72 hour period." It also means there's a lot less ammo on the island. Keep the rest of the gameplay. More tombs! More exploration! Hell, play up the survival element 10 fold(no, seriously, I'm waiting for someone to make a realistically-done survival game). But keep combat to a few incredibly tense encounters. Adraeus posted:Nikolai is the First Solarii. He wrote, "Even with the rituals and storms and rampant killing, it's only a matter of time before they turn against him. And when they do, I'll be ready to take control." How would a Solarii take control? He would have a good number of loyal supporters, which means that, no, the Solarii are not completely aligned with Mathias. That's what he hoped for. And it was pretty obvious they weren't exactly close to that. It just was a means to say, "Nikolai here is well respected", as an intimidation point. And even then- last I checked, Nikolai wanted you dead too. So it's not like that would have changed a whole bunch, to Lara. quaunaut fucked around with this message at 01:02 on Mar 13, 2013 |
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Mar 13, 2013 01:00
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Adraeus posted:The Solarii capture new survivors because those are the rules established by Father Mathias. The women are also killed by order of Mathias. The Solarii is a cult, Mathias the cult leader, and so the members are cult victims--brainwashed, brutalized, and stripped of their humanity. Father Mathias' inner circle controls the guns and the food. This is how gangs and cults control people. Okay, so being in this situation, what should Lara do?
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Mar 13, 2013 01:00
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Reveilled posted:Okay, so being in this situation, what should Lara do? Succumb to being murderaped, obviously.
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Mar 13, 2013 01:05
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Reminder that the very first thing the Solarii do to Lara is club her over the head and tie her up in a cocoon. The next thing that happens is a guy trying to grab you who will kill you if you fail the QTE. This is all before you so much as pick up the torch. But Lara's totally the bad guy here.
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Mar 13, 2013 01:05
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And Nikolai is also a crazy murderous dude. He's not the person you'd want in charge of a bunch of angry, well armed nutcases. I agree that there is a huge disconnect and the narrative falls on its face because of it. But they go through great pains to show that the Solarii are totally ok with sacrificing women that wash up. That they are fine with killing anyone who disagrees with them. Like I said, it's sloppy and cheap but it's pretty disingenuous to say they tried to humanize the cultists. Hell, most of those logs basically say "well, this crazy dude demands we kill people and sacrifice whoever he says, but whatever I'm cool with it." The game would have been much, much more effective without the brutal animations and making every enemy super dangerous. If there were only like 20 cultists instead of 500 and you had to actually avoid them because each fight would probably end with you dead - that sort of thing. However, that would be a very different game and probably couldn't do the numbers they need to break even. I understand that you are looking at it as if a competent writer wrote it - that realistically there would be some sympathetic people among the cultists and they probably don't want to all kill Lara. But that's not what the game is showing because, well, video game writing. And they made an action game, which needs enemies you can shoot without feeling bad about it.
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Mar 13, 2013 01:07
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1stGear posted:Reminder that the very first thing the Solarii do to Lara is club her over the head and tie her up in a cocoon. The next thing that happens is a guy trying to grab you who will kill you if you fail the QTE. This is all before you so much as pick up the torch. But Lara's totally the bad guy here. Suddenly I'm forced to pause and wonder a fairly big plot hole: Were they only sacrificing Japanese women? Is that why Lara was cocooned?
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Mar 13, 2013 01:21
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Kilometers Davis posted:I've seen a lot of poo poo on the forums but this thread is bringing out the craziest over analyzing goons I've seen. It's a bit terrifying but generally a good reinforcement for feeling normal. It's really not though, every single game thread has some kind of batshit flying around. The kind of dissonance thats been talked about is always going to be present in any game that involves shooting and people. If folks want to play the kind of game that doesnt have these elements sure ask for it, but dont be surpised if it doesnt sell at all. I kinda think it might have been interesting to have fewer survivors to go up against, but have them more unique and difficult to overcome, but i think that would be very difficult to pull off. Maybe as programming advances cool ai stuff like this might be possible. TR for me delivers a pretty atmospheric shooter thats fun to play, looks and feels very cinematic. Im finding it a lot more fun than the old ones i played years ago on the PS. It's the surpise hit of 2013 for me.
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Mar 13, 2013 01:30
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Dan Didio posted:She couldn't turn it off. She was gonna go cruisin' with Roth when they got home. They were gonna go cruisin' in his Solara man!
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Mar 13, 2013 01:33
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I think some of you should just give up on video games. At least the kind that are more complicated than casual puzzle games on facebook.
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Mar 13, 2013 01:35
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quaunaut posted:Suddenly I'm forced to pause and wonder a fairly big plot hole: Were they only sacrificing Japanese women? Is that why Lara was cocooned? Another weird thing: they are closest to Japan, but none of the cultists are Japanese. MY IMMERSION! ^^^^^^^^^^^ I think it's fair to point out inconsistencies and problems with the game. It's just that the game is linear so there's nothing else to talk about once you've beaten it. And you don't think about it when you're playing because it is fun. People have said the same thing about Uncharted as this one.
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Mar 13, 2013 01:41
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quaunaut posted:Suddenly I'm forced to pause and wonder a fairly big plot hole: Were they only sacrificing Japanese women? Is that why Lara was cocooned? According to one of the logs, the Solarii select some women for the ritual and sacrifice the rest to the "dark walkers" which are presumably the scary monsters from that concept art which shows Lara on horseback. They were cut from the game, of course, who knows at what point. I don't think we can assume they only sacrifice Japanese women, though. Matthias worked out that Sam was a candidate for the ritual after she explained about being the descendent of Himiko, but that doesn't mean he knew that was a criteria before that, it might just mean he put two and two together at that point and up until now has been doing the ritual according to another incorrect criteria.
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Mar 13, 2013 01:43
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Reveilled posted:Okay, so being in this situation, what should Lara do? Aside from murdering everyone on the island, they could have given Lara Croft the option of rescuing defiant and hunted survivors who had escaped certain death. Together, they could attempt to bring back as many uncertain Solarii initiates to the side of good. Using her knowledge of human societies and whatever, she could seed discontent among the Solarii rank-and-file, eventually causing the cult to turn against itself. And just when things were going well, Mathias would abduct Sam and prove his spiritual connection to the Sun Queen by ending her life. Or, Lara Croft could have the option of avoiding the Solarii as much as possible because she's an ordinary, young, and inexperienced archaeologist with limited self-defense training. She would still kill Solarii cultists, but very few of them and far between, and when she does do them in, their deaths would be a big deal to her that lasts more than a few seconds. Those might be bad or boring options, but I think "destroy all humans" is pretty unimaginative as a solution. Spite posted:And Nikolai is also a crazy murderous dude. He's not the person you'd want in charge of a bunch of angry, well armed nutcases. Nikolai's first journal entry doesn't indicate that he started out that way; instead, he speaks about his comrades... brotherhood. Mathias' first journal entry, however, indicates that he thinks himself superior and the other survivors weak. He almost immediately believes that there's more to the island. He's basically John Locke. Spite posted:Hell, most of those logs basically say "well, this crazy dude demands we kill people and sacrifice whoever he says, but whatever I'm cool with it." More like "I'll do what he says because, if I don't, I'll be killed." And the others were locked deep inside the caverns to starve or be eaten by cannibals. This tactic is much worse than waterboarding and sensory deprivation. This tactic is meant to break their will in the worst way. Like a boot camp or hell week... in Hell... where dropping out means getting dropped. numptyboy posted:If folks want to play the kind of game that doesnt have these elements sure ask for it, but dont be surpised if it doesnt sell at all. Nobody has argued that Tomb Raider should have no killing. The argument is that there's too much bloodshed for that bloodshed to be meaningful, and there's so much bloodshed that the integrity of the work suffers. Some disagree. Some agree. There's a divide between how we interpret the Tomb Raider experience. But I think the majority of us agree that the game is incredibly fun.
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Mar 13, 2013 01:49
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Adraeus posted:Aside from murdering everyone on the island, they could have given Lara Croft the option of rescuing defiant and hunted survivors who had escaped certain death. Together, they could attempt to bring back as many uncertain Solarii initiates to the side of good. Using her knowledge of human societies and whatever, she could seed discontent among the Solarii rank-and-file, eventually causing the cult to turn against itself. And just when things were going well, Mathias would abduct Sam and prove his spiritual connection to the Sun Queen by ending her life. But there are no "defiant and hunted survivors who had escaped certain death" on the island other than the Solarii, so Lara can't do this. Also, Sam is abducted within about a day and a half of arriving ont he island, Lara certainly doesn't have time to do any of this before Matthias puts his plan in motion, so even if Lara could do this alone, she certainly can't do it before Matthias abducts Sam. quote:Or, Lara Croft could have the option of avoiding the Solarii as much as possible because she's an ordinary, young, and inexperienced archaeologist with limited self-defense training. She would still kill Solarii cultists, but very few of them and far between, and when she does do them in, their deaths would be a big deal to her that lasts more than a few seconds. But Lara is frequently thown into situations where she is attacked and or ambushed by the Solarii, so Lara can't do this either. So no, Lara can't do either of these things. She's on an island where anyone she meets will attempt to murder her. If she does not fight back, they will kill her and her friends. Your contention is that for doing this, she is "a villain", and "a crazed killer". You are suggesting changes to the narrative which, if implemented, would mean that Lara had a choice not to kill people. But that's not the game's narrative, so within the context of the actual story in the actual game, what can Lara do other than kill the people who frequently attack her, not just in the gameplay sections, but also in the narrative portions such as cutscenes?
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Mar 13, 2013 02:06
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Reveilled posted:But there are no "defiant and hunted survivors who had escaped certain death" on the island other than the Solarii, so Lara can't do this. [...] But Lara is frequently thown into situations where she is attacked and or ambushed by the Solarii, so Lara can't do this either. I'm not paid to figure out how Lara Croft can solve problems within narrow constraints. But I fully expect the people who are to do so. Also, no, Lara Croft is not frequently ambushed by the Solarii; the Solarii are frequently ambushed by Lara Croft. Almost every encounter starts with Lara Croft behind a Solarii or out of sight. The player chooses how to engage because the Solarii are not actively hunting Lara Croft around the island. Reveilled posted:You are suggesting changes to the narrative which, if implemented, would mean that Lara had a choice not to kill people. The narrative suggests other options. The player is simply not provided access to them. The game places the player on rails and we are forced to play the way that the developers want us to play.
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Mar 13, 2013 02:32
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God this guy's a bummer...
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Mar 13, 2013 02:37
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Adraeus posted:The player chooses how to engage because the Solarii are not actively hunting Lara Croft around the island. Uh, what? Almost every time you encounter the Solarii they are literally saying 'the girl's got to be around here somewhere?" or they are hunting one of her friends. Like every lengthy conversation they have tends to involve at least one reference to them looking for either Lara specifically or survivors in general. Even when ambushed by the Onis they get into arguments because the girl has to be around here somewhere and they just want to leave the Oni to kill you instead.
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Mar 13, 2013 02:40
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ImpAtom posted:Almost every time you encounter the Solarii they are literally saying 'the girl's got to be around here somewhere?" or they are hunting one of her friends. I'm 82% of the way in and almost every time Solarii are encountered, they're talking about something else, fretting about "the girl" who has come to kill them all, taking a leak, discussing why one Solarii killed another Solarii and hid his body, or just checking out the view. They seem to be only actively looking for Lara Croft in the early forest zones, but they're pretty casual everywhere else. And they certainly don't walk around the island and across zone boundaries in search of her or do much more than stand around or repeatedly patrol the same paths when they are left alone.
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Mar 13, 2013 02:47
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P Funk Chainsaw posted:God this guy's a bummer... I thought it was a funny troll at first.
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Mar 13, 2013 03:00
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Adraeus posted:I'm not paid to figure out how Lara Croft can solve problems within narrow constraints. But I fully expect the people who are to do so. The narrative doesn't suggest other options at all, which is evident in the fact that you are appealing to the fact that you aren't being paid to come up with them as an excuse not to give them. As ImpAtom says, there are plenty of times in cutscenes where Lara is attacked by the Solarii. Can you name a time where Lara encounters the Solarii in a cutscene and is not attacked by them (or would not be attacked by them if she revealed her presence), except for the time where they run past her as they run away from the Oni? I can think of multiple times in the game where she is ambushed or attacked by them in cutscenes, for example: The opening cinematic The escape from their creepy cave The guy who tries to strangle her, who is her first kill the ambush when she meets up with TV guy The QTE cutscene on the bridge to the radio tower where someone jumps out and attempts to throw her off The ambush after the pilot is killed There are fewer ambushes and attacks within the cutscenes after this, though there are still points after this where Lara comes under attack. There are no peaceful Solarii she meets, either in the game or in the cutscenes. You can certainly argue that the game could have been written differently, but there is a difference between "the story could have been written in a manner that gave Lara a choice about killing" and "Lara had a choice in the narrative as written". The player has no choice in the matter, and in those moments where the player is controlling Lara she has no choice either, kill or be killed. But there are moments in the game where the player is not controlling Lara, and you yourself have drawn a distinction between the things Lara does in the game that are forced by the game's programming, and those which are not. So, I will ask again: pick a cutscene in the game where Lara kills someone and explain what choices you think Lara had, and why her choice to kill someone makes her a villain. Don't argue that the story should have been different, because it's not the character's fault the writer is bad, if Lara is a villain in this story as it was actually written, support that argument using the actions Lara took and contrast them with the options she had given the actual circumstances she was in. Edit: it also seems like you're trying eat your cake and have it too by trying to use the points in the game where you can ambush the Solarii as fuel for your argument. So the bits of the gameplay where you can ambush them show Lara is a crazed killer, but the fact that they will be hostile if you attempt to approach them without killing them doesn't show that they are crazed killers? If you want to argue that we should distinguish from the mindless hordes of Solarii in the game from the Solarii as established by the story, stop using thost very same action set pieces where Lara can ambush people in your argument and stick to the actions Lara takes during cutscenes. Reveilled fucked around with this message at 03:32 on Mar 13, 2013 |
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Mar 13, 2013 03:20
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Adraeus posted:I'm 82% of the way in and almost every time Solarii are encountered, they're talking about something else, fretting about "the girl" who has come to kill them all
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Mar 13, 2013 03:30
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Dan Didio posted:And yeah, the most obvious flaw with Adraeus thesis is that it doesn't address the fact that regardless of the moral trappings or how much the Solarii are victims of circumstance too, they do far more evil things than Lara does in the story and in the interest of far less noble goals. Their goals are the same though. They're both focused on self-preservation. Lara Croft and company want to live and get off the island. The Solarii want to live and get off the island. But they pursue their goals in very different ways. The Solarii are governed by rules and hierarchy; they are organized, overseen by a domineering lunatic. Ironically, they represent order, the status quo. The Endurance crew opposes Solarii society; they are equals, which was emphasized in the introduction, and this group represents chaos, the dissidents or free radicals. Both groups are set against each other at the outset. The Solarii is a machismic cult where women are considered weak. Mathias likely believes that weakness is insidious and that the introduction of women to Solarii society would cause a breakdown in order, hence his instruction that they be killed. On the other hand, half of the Endurance crew is female who are equals to their male counterparts. To submit to the Solarii is to accept that women are indeed weak as well as to lose group cohesion and unity, so they will not allow the Solarii to define them. Finally, my "thesis" asks the question, "Do the ends justify the means?" That question is also the one which Tomb Raider leaves you to answer. Reveilled posted:The narrative doesn't suggest other options at all Look up "ludonarrative dissonance" so I don't have to repeat past posts or outline the differences between the gameplay and narrative with a table. Winks posted:Hahaha, what? At most they're scared that this girl that they're actively hunting and trying to kill has managed to kill a lot of their cult brothers. Almost every conversation of theirs that involves Lara involves them finding her. The only way to prove this to you would be for you to play the game, use cover, and watch the Solarii until you get bored of them standing still or patrolling the same routes over and over — never searching where they haven't looked, never checking their blind spots, and never ever finding you unless you intervene. Or, I could play through the game again, take screenshots, and record videos. But I'm not going to do that because that's overkill and I shouldn't have to do that just to point out blatantly obvious Solarii behaviors. Adraeus fucked around with this message at 03:45 on Mar 13, 2013 |
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Mar 13, 2013 03:35
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Scorchy posted:I thought it was a funny troll at first. I put him on ignore because all of his ludonarrative dissonance bullshit and character deconstruction was getting a bit too pretentious and self-absorbed for my taste.
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Mar 13, 2013 03:42
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Sounds like what he wanted was a RPG where you can charm/intimate/charisma/wisdom the discontented Solarii to join you. I guess that may work if not for the pressing concern of rescuing her friends. That, and it is not hard to notice that if you avoid stealthing, and walk up to them in plain sight with no weapons drawn - they will still attack you, it is even explicit during one part of the narrative (when she is trapped in the windy ruins with some of them, after a bit of talking they shot at her). So there - Lara tries to be peaceful, and they shoot her anyway.
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Mar 13, 2013 03:50
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