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CapnAndy posted:Belkar is legitimately upset and doesn't feel worthy of Durkon's sacrifice. Everything seems serious when you're down 5 HP a level and level drained.
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Mar 13, 2013 15:17
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greatn posted:I don't know if Belkar has ever Ben a victim before.
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Mar 13, 2013 15:38
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Paperio posted:
Jesus, Roy's such a dick.
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Mar 13, 2013 15:57
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Call Now posted:Jesus, Roy's such a dick. Let's not forget that he was temporarily willing to abandon Ethan and the rest of the party to bandits. Despite being LG with high int and cha, Roy can be an incredibly insensitive twatwaffle sometimes.
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Mar 13, 2013 16:13
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Ursine Asylum posted:Let's not forget that he was temporarily willing to abandon Ethan and the rest of the party to bandits. And he was willing to lie to his party members to get them to agree to go on his starmetal sidequest.
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Mar 13, 2013 16:16
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Whose Ethan? Also, this is just a classic "Boy Cries Wolf" scenario, Belkar's spent so much time being Belkar that of course Roy's skeptical of him.
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Mar 13, 2013 16:18
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Roy has deep character flaws, just like the rest of the cast. His are just more subtle and less grounded in D&D than the others'.
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Mar 13, 2013 16:19
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Yes, Roy can be a dick. But.
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Mar 13, 2013 16:20
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Also I can imagine that Roy is kind of freaking the gently caress out right now (inwardly if not outwardly), and not thinking straight.
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Mar 13, 2013 16:26
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Also Belkar has pulled "Ha ha, got you" stuff before.
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Mar 13, 2013 16:27
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That to, what's more palatable: that his best friend in all the world is a Vampire now, or that Belkar is a lying poo poo.
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Mar 13, 2013 16:28
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The Rooster posted:Whose Ethan? My Ethan 
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Mar 13, 2013 16:41
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Penis Ouija posted:What Niton said, or if his vampirism comes with a free conversion to Nergal, he'd be bringing death and destruction in a more abstract sense, that being Nergal's domain. There's no reason to assume that Durkon will convert. The prophecy is easily fulfilled in the case that Malack survives this gate and Durkon leads his new master to the next, or at least as close as he can know it to be. Which just happens to be the Dwarven homelands. In this way Durkon brings "death and destruction" and pretty much guarantees that when Malack is finally killed Durkon gets to know that because of his actions he's caused terrible harm to his people.
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Mar 13, 2013 16:52
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Call Now posted:Jesus, Roy's such a dick. I read it more as intense denial, lashing out rather than even consider it as a possibility and be all  Stages of grief and all that. 
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Mar 13, 2013 16:53
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The Rooster posted:Whose Ethan? 3 hours of sleep and nightmares about the CAD Mock Thread do not a coherent post make.
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Mar 13, 2013 16:57
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Call Now posted:Jesus, Roy's such a dick. Dudes in denial that his best friend was murdered. he can see the bite marks, he knows belkar is telling the truth, he just doesn't want to admit it. It is a completely plausible reaction for the character
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Mar 13, 2013 17:02
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razorrozar posted:Yes, Roy can be a dick. But. And of course that whole thing also featured him nearly getting kicked out of Lawful Good heaven for nearly leaving Elan to die (though weirdly/stupidly, to Neutral Good rather than Lawful Neutral, because of course Lawful Good is Best and the kind of person whose alignment is literally "Benevolent" would totally leave a person they found annoying behind to their potential demise). Likewise, I am pretty sure that none of the Good heavens would approve of him wanting Belkar to die, even if he is/has been a terrible person. Roy's positively eager to see it happen, and has been for long before this particular event. It's not that Roy "can be" a dick. Roy is a dick. He's still a Good guy and definitely not Evil or anything, but he's also an rear end in a top hat.
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Mar 13, 2013 17:11
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Yeppers.Brannock posted:I'm pretty sure Belkar is going to either survive (by way of having his old self "die") or die an ironic death at the hands of Roy. If you look through the previous strips, Belkar has been progressively becoming less lovely/Evil, but Roy still treats him just as badly as he always has. And now Belkar is genuinely concerned about Durkon and is running back to the Order to tell them what happened to Durkon - how do you think Roy's gonna take that? Though Roy came just short of finishing Belkar off. I wonder if they'll retreat now that they don't have Durkon's Planar Ally to protect the Gate and they don't have V either for spells. The Order is a sitting duck right now. If they stick around they're liable to get killed when Xykon shows up. They could start working on figuring out how to destroy the Gate, I guess.
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Mar 13, 2013 17:21
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Roland Jones posted:It's not that Roy "can be" a dick. Roy is a dick. He's still a Good guy and definitely not Evil or anything, but he's also an rear end in a top hat. This is an important thing to remember. Roy inherited a sadistic streak from his dad and he really enjoys making people he doesn't like suffer. It slips by the reader easily because it's always played for laughs and the victim is always an unsympathetic character, but objectively speaking, Roy isn't a nice person. I was a bit surprised that Roy didn't drag out his fight with Thog and slap Thog around like a chump for a while in the gladiator fight.
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Mar 13, 2013 17:23
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Roland Jones posted:And of course that whole thing also featured him nearly getting kicked out of Lawful Good heaven for nearly leaving Elan to die (though weirdly/stupidly, to Neutral Good rather than Lawful Neutral, because of course Lawful Good is Best and the kind of person whose alignment is literally "Benevolent" would totally leave a person they found annoying behind to their potential demise). He nearly got moved to True Neutral for tha one, actually. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0488.html
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Mar 13, 2013 17:37
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inthesto posted:This is an important thing to remember. Roy inherited a sadistic streak from his dad and he really enjoys making people he doesn't like suffer. It slips by the reader easily because it's always played for laughs and the victim is always an unsympathetic character, but objectively speaking, Roy isn't a nice person. Turns out he really is Roy's LG equivalent after all.
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Mar 13, 2013 17:47
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Nostalgamus posted:He nearly got moved to True Neutral for tha one, actually. Whoops, right, thanks for the correction. Got the two events mixed up; the True Neutral thing makes more sense; I just didn't remember it because the "kicked over to the Neutral Good afterlife" thing bugged me a lot. Been a while since I reread the comic and all too.
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Mar 13, 2013 17:50
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I'm willing to give Roy a pass on this one. Given Roy and Durkon's history together (go read On the Origin of PCs), it's easy to believe that Roy would rather assume Belkar's just loving with everyone for some sick joke than accept the idea that his best friend and the guy he's been adventuring with the longest is now an unholy abomination. Roy's face in the last panel is absolutely heartbreaking. 
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Mar 13, 2013 17:57
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Roland Jones posted:. Likewise, I am pretty sure that none of the Good heavens would approve of him wanting Belkar to die, even if he is/has been a terrible person.
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Mar 13, 2013 17:59
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W.T. Fits posted:I'm willing to give Roy a pass on this one. Given Roy and Durkon's history together (go read On the Origin of PCs), it's easy to believe that Roy would rather assume Belkar's just loving with everyone for some sick joke than accept the idea that his best friend and the guy he's been adventuring with the longest is now an unholy abomination. Roy's face in the last panel is absolutely heartbreaking. Belkar's made worse jokes before, after all. If anything the surprise here is how serious he is about it and giving Durkon credit where credit's due.
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Mar 13, 2013 18:05
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Fried Chicken posted:Nah. Remember that paladins can genocide evil species with full approval, or Roy can coup de grace sleeping foes with no issues, murdering an chaotic evil bellar while he is incapicitated won't be a problem The problem here is I don't know if Belkar is still CE. Has he done anything CE-worthy since being a jerk to the fellow prisoners in Bleedingham? He's killed slavers, fascist guards, saved his cat and his friends, freed a dinosaur to save the bounty hunters ... You could tell me he was CN now and I'd buy it. Well, I guess torturing the kobold was pretty Evil of him.
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Mar 13, 2013 18:08
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Brannock posted:The problem here is I don't know if Belkar is still CE. Has he done anything CE-worthy since being a jerk to the fellow prisoners in Bleedingham? He's killed slavers, fascist guards, saved his cat and his friends, freed a dinosaur to save the bounty hunters ... What alignment was the kobold?
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Mar 13, 2013 18:19
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Colonial Air Force posted:What alignment was the kobold? Shouldn't matter; the act of torture itself is always an Evil act, regardless of the victim's own alignment.
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Mar 13, 2013 18:22
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Brannock posted:The problem here is I don't know if Belkar is still CE. Has he done anything CE-worthy since being a jerk to the fellow prisoners in Bleedingham? He's killed slavers, fascist guards, saved his cat and his friends, freed a dinosaur to save the bounty hunters ... As far as I remember the timescale here, he was in the Bleedingham slave pits yesterday in comic-time. If you have to ask "other than the torture, what evil stuff has he done today?" he's probably still evil. Might be due for an alignment shift, though. He certainly seems to lament Durkon's death, and he even tried to warn the others before finding away to get himself healed.
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Mar 13, 2013 18:24
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Tenebrais posted:Might be due for an alignment shift, though. He certainly seems to lament Durkon's death, and he even tried to warn the others before finding away to get himself healed. As Malack has shown, you can care about your own teammates and still be evil.
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Mar 13, 2013 18:35
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Tenebrais posted:As far as I remember the timescale here, he was in the Bleedingham slave pits yesterday in comic-time. If you have to ask "other than the torture, what evil stuff has he done today?" he's probably still evil. Evil people can care about friends/family/loved ones. Just look at Redcloak or Tarquin. As soon as Belkar stops murdering and tortuing people by choice, and actually tries to help people, he might drag it up. Remember too that the planes care about intent, and right now he's faking character growth so he can keep living and keep murdering. This probably does represent some actual growth on Belkar's part, but he's got a hell of a long way to go including developing a real desire to not be evil he's never really deminstrated. Even this is mostly shock amd fear.
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Mar 13, 2013 18:36
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Tenebrais posted:As far as I remember the timescale here, he was in the Bleedingham slave pits yesterday in comic-time. If you have to ask "other than the torture, what evil stuff has he done today?" he's probably still evil. This is worth re-iterating. We've known that Belkar's experiencing a genuine change for ages. Roy doesn't, and in strip time this change is incredibly recent anyway. This also isn't behaviour that's out of tune with the rest of the group. Haley was going to abandon Belkar when she found out the Mark of Justice activated before her memory got wiped. Roy was explicitly warned in the afterlife 'what the hell are you doing hanging out with this guy'.
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Mar 13, 2013 19:00
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Zore posted:As soon as Belkar stops murdering and tortuing people by choice, and actually tries to help people, he might drag it up. Remember too that the planes care about intent, and right now he's faking character growth so he can keep living and keep murdering. And really, wouldn't the best eternal punishment for Belkar be getting bumped to CN and not getting allowed to fight in the Blood Wars?
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Mar 13, 2013 19:23
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If we go by V's slide towards neutral (intending to do good not being good enough AND neutral being good with evil mixed in) then surely Belkar would be neutral too. He does good, he does evil, whatever floats his boat.
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Mar 13, 2013 19:32
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Sneak attack alignment debate... natural twenty
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Mar 13, 2013 19:33
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Cliff Racer posted:If we go by V's slide towards neutral (intending to do good not being good enough AND neutral being good with evil mixed in) then surely Belkar would be neutral too. He does good, he does evil, whatever floats his boat. Problem is, whatever floats his boat tends to be the evil side of neutral at best. Although I guess the argument could be made that he tends to stay on track when you make sure he's pointed in the right direction, so the only "evil" is "enjoying the killing too much". And on the other other hand, Holy Word did affect him, so I'd call that pretty definitive.
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Mar 13, 2013 19:40
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You had to have these strips to get Roy's reaction to Durkon's death and vampification. I accept that. What I want to see now is the next one where Mr. Big Brain tries to figure out what to do about a now much stronger Linear Guild when his resources are himself, Haley, Elan, half of Belkar, and Mr. Scruffy. Also, and this would be a great time for him to get a Sending from Hinjo saying that, oh, by the way, Xykon's on his way right loving now.
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Mar 13, 2013 19:41
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Ursine Asylum posted:Problem is, whatever floats his boat tends to be the evil side of neutral at best. Although I guess the argument could be made that he tends to stay on track when you make sure he's pointed in the right direction, so the only "evil" is "enjoying the killing too much". Holy word affects any non good.
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Mar 13, 2013 19:45
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I just realized another extra obstacle for the Order - not only have the lost Durkon and kind of lost V, but they just disabled the traps for the possible gate, while the LG's rogue was banished. Kind of a crappy place to be defending now.
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Mar 13, 2013 20:42
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CapnAndy posted:And really, wouldn't the best eternal punishment for Belkar be getting bumped to CN and not getting allowed to fight in the Blood Wars? No D&D campaign I've been a part has lasted long enough to get into deep cosmological specifics, if you're judged in the afterlife according to your alignment, what happens to Evil character like Nale, Tarquin and Malack, if Good characters are rewarded for following their alignment? Do they go to hell(s) for being Evil, or is there destination determined by adherence to their alignment as well? (Apologies if this is a  question.)
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Mar 13, 2013 20:44
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