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Taim is 99.999% certainly a DF by the time of Dumai's Wells, so all we're quibbling over is when exactly he was turned, before LoC or during. I think given all of the clues if we discount the BA-plots-to-free-Taim as a too convenient lie, it takes place after he gets shunted off to the farm. And again, there's basically no reason whatsoever to believe that Demandred would have settled for a CHANCE at personally subverting Rand's new school which doesn't exist yet. On balance, that's exactly the kind of play you toss a high level lackey at and hope it works. VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE fucked around with this message at 05:41 on Mar 6, 2013 |
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Mar 6, 2013 05:33
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api call girl posted:Taim is 99.999% certainly a DF by the time of Dumai's Wells, so all we're quibbling over is when exactly he was turned, before LoC or during. I think given all of the clues if we discount the BA-plots-to-free-Taim as a too convenient lie, it takes place after he gets shunted off to the farm. Besides, with Demandred's ego, he couldn't have stood being Taim(and thus, nominally under Rand's command) for long.
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Mar 6, 2013 06:06
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api call girl posted:Taim is 99.999% certainly a DF by the time of Dumai's Wells, so all we're quibbling over is when exactly he was turned, before LoC or during. I think given all of the clues if we discount the BA-plots-to-free-Taim as a too convenient lie, it takes place after he gets shunted off to the farm. I thought he was DF by the time the time he was rescued? Possibly even before he declared as the Dragon.
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Mar 6, 2013 11:05
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api call girl posted:Taim is 99.999% certainly a DF by the time of Dumai's Wells, so all we're quibbling over is when exactly he was turned, before LoC or during. I think given all of the clues if we discount the BA-plots-to-free-Taim as a too convenient lie, it takes place after he gets shunted off to the farm. Joiya couldn't have knowingly said that if it had been a real plot about Taim, because she was still bound by her oaths at that point -- I think Nynaeve stilled Amico, not Joiya, and Joiya was the one with the Mazrim Taim story. That said, it could still have been a real plot, we just don't know! Personally I think either Taim was turned years before, possibly even before the start of the books and before he declares himself, or he was turned when he was freed. Earlier seems more likely though, as his diction ("severing", etc.) and knowledge of how to test for the Power, so forth, indicate some length of time studying under Forsaken.
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Mar 6, 2013 13:59
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Joiya couldn't have knowingly said that if it had been a real plot about Taim, because she was still bound by her oaths at that point -- I think Nynaeve stilled Amico, not Joiya, and Joiya was the one with the Mazrim Taim story. That said, it could still have been a real plot, we just don't know! Splitting hairs: their oath only prevents spilling beans on ONGOING plots. If Taim had already been freed by then there wouldn't be any problems whatsoever. Joiya could have been using a real plot she knew was already done as some kind of cover. IIRC the BA Elayne's group captures in Ebou Dar use the same kind of trick before she and her interrogator were murdered. quote:Personally I think either Taim was turned years before, possibly even before the start of the books and before he declares himself, or he was turned when he was freed. Earlier seems more likely though, as his diction ("severing", etc.) and knowledge of how to test for the Power, so forth, indicate some length of time studying under Forsaken. Depending on how/when he was freed he would have had months to refine his previously relatively crude knowledge of the Power. Demandred would have been freed probably along with that tier of Forsaken (Graendal, Rahvin, etc.) during the time skip in TGH, and then we see Rand sits around over the entirety of winter in a mountain at the beginning of TDR. e: This is, again, a problem of opportunity and motivation. There's not a whole lot of window between Rand announcing his amnesty and before he unveiled his conceptual school. If we assume that Taim was a well-aimed Darkfriend plot from the very beginning that's very little time to have prepped him and sent him off on a long shot to corrupt Rand's works from the inside. VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE fucked around with this message at 16:38 on Mar 6, 2013 |
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Mar 6, 2013 16:22
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Blind Melon posted:This isn't true. At all. Aiel means dedicated, Taim, the guy who named himself M'Heal and was linguistically clever enough to claim a name that implied he led everything and very one certainly spoke the Old Tongue well enough to make a pun. You've got the Shaido running around, Taim wants to undermine Rands confidence, sure he wants to encourage doubts about the so called dedicated. Thank you for posting this, that's exactly the point I try to make whenever that comes up, but you put it so much better.
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Mar 6, 2013 16:44
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What indications are there that Taim was forcibly turned to the Shadow, rather than just being a run-of-the-mill Darkfriend who happens to be able to channel? I've read this series a lot of times and the current conversation about when he was turned hit me like a ton of bricks - I've never had that impression.
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Mar 6, 2013 17:21
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The Midniter posted:What indications are there that Taim was forcibly turned to the Shadow, rather than just being a run-of-the-mill Darkfriend who happens to be able to channel? I've read this series a lot of times and the current conversation about when he was turned hit me like a ton of bricks - I've never had that impression. You could quite willingly turn to the Shadow though. If say, Taim originally was NOT a Darkfriend, he might have figured that his best bet was to turn out to be the Dragon Reborn, at least that way his life will have meaning. Then Rand turned up, his shot at fame gone down the drain and only madness remains in the future. Sounds perfect to make an offer he can't refuse.
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Mar 6, 2013 17:37
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The standard arguments against the Minion Taim theory (in favor of Taim actually being a Forsaken at that early point) center on his early use of weapon-like weaves and Compulsion. This is rather weak because we find out that weak Compulsion is one of the tricks that a good number of wilders who go to the White Tower already know and AIUI it's a Spirit weave. Given that men are generally stronger in Fire and Earth it follows that a strong channeling sparking man might discover/pick up destructive weaves relatively readily and naturally as well. Rand and the Wonder Girls pick up new weaves incredibly fast (as did Moiraine and Siuan, for what it's worth) so it's not that surprising that Taim could learn Travelling from Rand with only an example. And weave residue reading can apparently teach weaves or is enough of a thing that we've seen channellers try to avoid it against potential unfriendlies when possible. http://wotfaq.dragonmount.com/node/67 This is basically the last words of WOTFAQ on Taim's status after Taimandred was fully shot down. Some of these arguments for/against are really easy to shoot down given some thought. Further comment: The "let the Lord of Chaos rule" command is actually apparently based on a tradition where the village idiot would be made the "Lord of Chaos" for a day and all his commands (within some reason) would be followed to the letter for that day. The supposition is that he will generally be expected to do something that he supposes is good, but will end up ironically biting him and everyone else in the rear end. It's not at all to do with "sowing disorder" or whatever it is generally assumed to mean.
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Mar 6, 2013 19:35
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regulargonzalez posted:One of the more convincing Taimandred arguments to my mind was posted in this (or the other) thread a dozen or so pages back -- don't remember by whom, I'm afraid. But the Dark One says "let the Lord of Chaos reign" which has been interpreted as giving Rand a free hand to do what he wants and not attack him directly (because TDO would rather have him serve than fight it out), he tells this to Demandred and others. Indeed, this book marks Dem's first appearance in the series, in the prologue, in one other chapter in Shayol Ghul, and at the very end, where he says "Have I not done well?" and there is much evil laughing. But we haven't seen a single thing he's done all book, nor in the books to follow. Seems a huge throwaway and pointless arc if it's not meant to imply that yes, we have seen some of his actions in that very book. Jordan's too good of a writer to waste the reader's time on clues that don't exist or mean anything. On the other hand, if he is Taim, he has become the head of a school of male channelers and has helped drive an enormous wedge between Rand and the Aes Sedai. Demandred likes to use proxies this is brought up too often to be meaningless. One of the Forsaken muses that Demandred was involved with Rands kidnapping, despite how it ended. If Demandred placed Taim, kidnapped Rand, then rescued Rand (indirectly of course) then he has every reason to laugh maniacally especially now that we know the Dark Ones goal was to drive Rand mad. Placing Taim alone is probably worthy of a pat on the head. Taim is keeping tabs on Rand, and knowledge about forsaken plans is power, especially when those plans possibly contradict standing orders. (Don't kill Rand) I will point out that you could make the exact argument about Lanfear killing Asmodean. One thing to keep in mind is that Jordan was insanely optimistic about the length of the series. Things like Demandreds laughter make a lot more sense when you think things are getting wrapped up in a couple books. Blind Melon fucked around with this message at 19:53 on Mar 6, 2013 |
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Mar 6, 2013 19:47
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api call girl posted:http://wotfaq.dragonmount.com/node/67[/url] It was my impression that "Let the Lord of Chaos Rule" was the DO's order to keep everyone confused. Cut lines of communication. Start rumors. Spread rumors. Reinforce falsehoods. Which is what happened. Every little storyline in the book is almost directly related to peeps not having accurate, recent communications. Queen of Andor gets Compelled and becomes a psycho bitch... but no one knows a Forsaken is secretly controlling her, and Andor is thrown into chaos. "Rand killed the Queen" becomes a driving motivation for her sons, two of the major players through the entire series, and their actions through a majority of the story are directly related to that bad information. The Shaido get trickfucked by some Forsaken, and they are scattered all over Randland, which directly leads into Perrin's wife getting kidnapped and drives his narrative for about 3 books. We, the readers, know "The Dragon" is our protagonist, but Masema, leader of the official "Dragonsworn," commits atrocities across the land in Rand's name. "Dragonsworn" should have been the group the people of the world knew to trust, but the opposite became true. Children of Light, ideally, should have been good guys.,.. but they are secretly led by Darkfriends, and instead are feared and, above all, hate the Tar Valon Witches, believing them all to be Darkfriends. Rand killed a Forsaken and secured the Lion Throne for Elayne, and everyone saw Rand as a conqueror and Elayne herself thought Rand was being an rear end in a top hat. A lot of our main characters didn't know Egwene was Amerlyn until long after it happened. A lot of our main characters didn't know Elayne had control of Andor until long after it happened. Most of the world, including the White Tower, didn't believe the Seanchan even existed until they started knocking holes in the walls. Even with Traveling and instant communication, everybody through most of the first 13 books were always acting on intentionally false or outdated information. THAT is chaos. THAT is what Rand had to deal with, never catching a break, making him think he lived in a world of poo poo, dragging him down into despair... which, we now know, is the only way the DO could have won. It nearly worked. In my opinion. GORDON fucked around with this message at 20:09 on Mar 6, 2013 |
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Mar 6, 2013 19:59
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I always thought the 'let the Lord of Chaos reign' referred to the fact that Rand was a loving nutjob getting nuttier and the DO wanted the Forsaken to let him tear the world apart, so he called off the hit and they happily started setting up fiefdoms instead. A narrative device to prevent 'and then the DO ordered the Forsaken to cooperate, they opened up a portal and I think Taim as modern Forsaken works for me. In part because he knows a lot of destructo weaves that Lews Therin doesn't flip poo poo about. We know Rand was recognizing and using War of Power era weaves, but Taim doesn't set off that alarm. Demandred would have no particular reason to avoid using things Lews Therin would recognize, so a Darkfriend channeler with some helpful guidance makes a lot more sense. Also, I think we know he wasn't turned against his will because he doesn't have the creepy eye thing.
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Mar 6, 2013 20:33
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Here's my take on the Taim thing, with bonus Demandred action. Demandred appeared to him and offered him the deal of immunity from the taint and training, knowing he was pretty clearly a false dragon. He just wanted a Dreadlord. By a series of the most unbelievable coincidences, Rand put this dude in charge of his Black Tower, putting him in the absolute loving perfect spot to ruin poo poo. Demandred goes back to the Dark One, saying in absolute disbelief 'have I not done well? Can you loving believe this poo poo?' The Dark One isn't laughing evilly. He's laughing his loving rear end off because there is literally no way they could have planned this poo poo out. Another thing I've been thinking about is the Forsaken themselves, specifically Graendal. I like that she reveals how utterly broken she is towards the end of AMOL. And yes, there's an argument to be made for her being broken just for seeking the Shadow, but hear me out. She's always had the whole 'pets' thing going on, and that seemed to me like kind of a 'gently caress yeah, unlimited power, do what I want.' sort of thing. It's when she's fighting Aviendha that she shows her true hand. Aviendha notes that there are several women kneeling to her. It's not enough she Compels the gently caress out of them, she has to have them kneel to her as well. And this is in the middle of a battle situation. Even then, she had to show everyone how much better she was than those around her. She's as much compelled to have pets as they are by her. She just can't help herself. She needs them, as much as they need her. Maybe I'm overreaching, but I honestly found the fact that she needed them to kneel to her to be one of the more disturbing things in the series.
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Mar 9, 2013 07:59
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GORDON posted:Every little storyline in the book is almost directly related to peeps not having accurate, recent communications. Totally agree with this. Like many works of fiction, so many problems could have been solved if everyone had cellphones. Or at least used gateways in an intelligent manner, which they don't start until the last book, which is likely due to Sanderson as he is all about using powers logically. Do something like make tar'valon a central hub, with gateways the all the other major cities. Have a set of gateways for couriers, government people etc... a set of gateways for goods/resources, a set of gateways just for regular people. So much trouble could have been avoided...
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Mar 9, 2013 11:32
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PastaSky posted:Totally agree with this. Like many works of fiction, so many problems could have been solved if everyone had cellphones. Or at least used gateways in an intelligent manner, which they don't start until the last book, which is likely due to Sanderson as he is all about using powers logically. Up until the last book the Aes Sedai were trying to keep the gateway weave secret, and the Asha'man don't really care about helping anybody else out. It makes sense to me that they wouldn't be used except for emergencies and personal errands until the very end. It would be an interesting thing to ask Sanderson about at one of the book signings though.
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Mar 9, 2013 16:28
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the JJ posted:Also, I think we know he wasn't turned against his will because he doesn't have the creepy eye thing.
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Mar 9, 2013 19:36
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True, but in the book where the Aes Sedai (Pevara's group?) arrive at the Black Tower, they straightaway notice something is off.
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Mar 9, 2013 19:42
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Two Finger posted:True, but in the book where the Aes Sedai (Pevara's group?) arrive at the Black Tower, they straightaway notice something is off. Maybe most people at the Black Tower didn't notice as stuff gradually went from normal* to freaky, where the Aes Sedai arrived when the whole oppressive air and Taim's inner circle was in full swing and noticed "Oh hey, something ain't right." *As normal as a camp where dudes are blowing up rocks and stuff can be, anyway.
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Mar 9, 2013 20:40
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So, the song was never found or explained?
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Mar 12, 2013 05:17
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Bhodi posted:So, the song was never found or explained? It was explained perfectly well, way back in The Shadow Rising. It was a legend that arose from the song of growing the Aiel would sing in the age of legends, that some of them remembered as the sign of a civilized age when the tinkers broke off from the Jenn. The tinkers morphed from seeking a place they could live in peace and sing again, to seeking the song that would cause peace (which never existed). It never existed, so they can't find it. If they found the Song of Growing they'd reject it because they don't know that's what they're looking for anymore and it won't bring back the Age of Legends.
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Mar 12, 2013 05:25
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Oh, right. It was so many tens of thousands of words ago I had completely forgot. It would have been nice for Rand to tell them about it in the last book, though! Just like all the other miracles that weren't ever disseminated, like curing male madness, men healing stilled women to full strength, and all the weaves that Rand knew that would have been fantastic in combat, like the ribbons of air that slice anything that runs into them. Or maybe that one shield that blocks everything around. Gee, maybe they would have been more effective than generic fireballs over and over again for the entire last book and 15 seconds of showing someone a weave would have saved thousands of lives. In fact, I was kind of sad that all the unique and cool uses just devolved into throwing raw weaves in the big battle scenes. Bhodi fucked around with this message at 18:19 on Mar 13, 2013 |
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Mar 13, 2013 18:16
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Well, in the final battle, I figured there would be so many weaves hurled that any observer would mainly see raw weaves...plus those who COULD learn from Rand were Ashaman and most of them were quite successfully sidelined by the Shadow.
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Mar 13, 2013 18:45
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I never understood why they had several thousand novices completely sidelined. Each Aes Sedai on the front lines could have been linked to a novice or three with a thousand left over for Healing duties. Likewise, it's the Last Battle, how about a volunteer suicide core to power bomb the poo poo out of the enemy armies. The Last Battle could have been far more epic.
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Mar 13, 2013 18:51
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Blind Melon posted:I never understood why they had several thousand novices completely sidelined. Each Aes Sedai on the front lines could have been linked to a novice or three with a thousand left over for Healing duties. Likewise, it's the Last Battle, how about a volunteer suicide core to power bomb the poo poo out of the enemy armies. The Last Battle could have been far more epic. And you'd think Fortuona could have spared at least a few of her Bloodknives to go around ganking Fades or something. I mean I know you can only break that glass once and she likes to keep them around in case she really needs them later, but it's the Last loving Battle. Lose that one and there won't be a world to conquer. If you don't think that's important enough to turn loose everything you've got, I don't know what to tell you.
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Mar 14, 2013 02:10
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Finally finished the book and caught up with the thread, didn't see anyone answer the question over who killed Asmodean: I was also at a book signing with sanderson and harriet and she said that the answer was in the glossary of ToM. it's a little hard to find but there's an entry that says that Graendal did it. in retrospect, is that obvious at all once you look back at that scene? I don't remember it at all
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Mar 17, 2013 00:56
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Colton posted:Finally finished the book and caught up with the thread, didn't see anyone answer the question over who killed Asmodean: It's obvious if you decide it has to be a channeler, make a list of all channelers, and cross off all the ones whom he wouldn't recognize, or who wouldn't want him dead, or who didn't know who he was, or who were themselves either dead or in *Finnland, or who in later books had POV sections where they weren't sure where he was. So it's obvious in a "the proof has been left as an exercise for the reader" sort of way.
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Mar 17, 2013 01:11
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Colton posted:Finally finished the book and caught up with the thread, didn't see anyone answer the question over who killed Asmodean: Every one keeps complaining that it was revealed in the glossary, but if you paid any attention to graendal's point of view sections in The Gathering Storm you'd have known she was responsible. She doesn't outright say it in bold font with neon lights to draw your attention to it, but it doesn't take much reading between the lines to make it clear.
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Mar 17, 2013 03:26
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zonohedron posted:It's obvious if you decide it has to be a channeler, make a list of all channelers, and cross off all the ones whom he wouldn't recognize, or who wouldn't want him dead, or who didn't know who he was, or who were themselves either dead or in *Finnland, or who in later books had POV sections where they weren't sure where he was. So it's obvious in a "the proof has been left as an exercise for the reader" sort of way. I argued it was Lanfear because it being her makes for a nice dum dum dum moment and interdimensional travel is not exactly uncharted territory for her. Graendal was such a boring suspect that if it had been her it might as well have been generic Forsaken doing the deed. Which in retrospect explains Jordan's apathy about the whole mystery. The truth was that Asmodean had served his purpose and needed to be written out and the actual murderer did not matter in the slightest.
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Mar 17, 2013 22:58
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Blind Melon posted:I argued it was Lanfear because it being her makes for a nice dum dum dum moment and interdimensional travel is not exactly uncharted territory for her. Graendal was such a boring suspect that if it had been her it might as well have been generic Forsaken doing the deed. Which in retrospect explains Jordan's apathy about the whole mystery. The truth was that Asmodean had served his purpose and needed to be written out and the actual murderer did not matter in the slightest. What was his purpose really? Just to show Rand a few weaves and get killed? Strangely enough, Demandred somehow didn't know he died even all the way in AMoL?
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Mar 17, 2013 23:15
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Blind Melon posted:I argued it was Lanfear because it being her makes for a nice dum dum dum moment and interdimensional travel is not exactly uncharted territory for her. Graendal was such a boring suspect that if it had been her it might as well have been generic Forsaken doing the deed. Which in retrospect explains Jordan's apathy about the whole mystery. The truth was that Asmodean had served his purpose and needed to be written out and the actual murderer did not matter in the slightest. Here's the thing though, while Lanfear made sense while we weren't sure what had happened to her, that no longer applies. When Asmodean was killed she was most definitely a prisoner of the Finns. Robert Jordan knew it could not be Lanfear, so he said it was obvious, and given that Graendal is the only real alternative that makes sense at that point (if you know it can't be Lanfear) then it is obvious that it is Graendal. But fans didn't know that for the reasons you mentioned. Lanfear was powerful enough that she could conceivably have escaped Finnworld. So it wasn't obvious to the fans. Really, we made way too big a deal of this. It wasn't actually that important in the grand scheme of things, but Jordan refused to explain it because he didn't understand why people couldn't figure it out.
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Mar 17, 2013 23:51
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Reminder that Asmodean gave Couladin and Sevanna their start, as a lark.
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Mar 17, 2013 23:52
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Blind Melon posted:I argued it was Lanfear because it being her makes for a nice dum dum dum moment and interdimensional travel is not exactly uncharted territory for her. It may have been possible that the finns granted Lanfear a few wishes but she didn't factor in escaping from them. Even Mat only got lucky there. If she had been granted wishes, "I want to kill Asmodean" might very well have been one of them. Moot point, though.
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Mar 18, 2013 00:38
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No, Asmodean wouldn't even remotely be in her top 3 priorities. Those would be: kill Rand, kill Aviendha, get out. Not necessarily in that order. The insistence that Lanfear be on the list of suspects was always the most far fetched and least rational.
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Mar 18, 2013 00:55
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^^^ if you think Lanfear wouldn't have killed Asmodean given the opportunity then I really don't know what series you were reading. Rand had to beg her not to kill him at one point. She was definitely upset over Asmodeans attempted betrayal which is ironic all things considered.Zarfol posted:What was his purpose really? Just to show Rand a few weaves and get killed? Strangely enough, Demandred somehow didn't know he died even all the way in AMoL? That and basically he was the only person who could tell Rand exactly where his weird memories/insanity were coming from, like when Rand blocked that gateway from closing. He provided a healthy outlet for Rand to epress Lews Therin and told the reader that there was more going on than Rand being a preternaturally gifted channeler and going crazy from the taint. Which is why he had to die. Vvvvvv I'm not doing this with you again crazypants. Blind Melon fucked around with this message at 04:13 on Mar 18, 2013 |
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Mar 18, 2013 01:12
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Blind Melon posted:^^^ if you think Lanfear wouldn't have killed Asmodean given the opportunity then I really don't know what series you were reading. Rand had to beg her not to kill him at one point. She was definitely upset over Asmodeans attempted betrayal which is ironic all things considered. *neglects to analyze motivation and priorities* *says somebody else isn't actually reading the series* quote:That and basically he was the only person who could tell Rand exactly where his weird memories/insanity were coming from, like when Rand blocked that gateway from closing. He provided a healthy outlet for Rand to epress Lews Therin and told the reader that there was more going on than Rand being a preternaturally gifted channeler and going crazy from the taint. Which is why he had to die. Rand knew exactly where they were coming from. There is no healthy way for Rand to express Lews Therin except as what he became at the end of TGS. Asmodean doesn't know poo poo about clinical psychology so anything he tells Rand only reinforces the insanity. VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE fucked around with this message at 02:39 on Mar 18, 2013 |
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Mar 18, 2013 02:35
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api call girl posted:No, Asmodean wouldn't even remotely be in her top 3 priorities. To be fair she'd probably be split between kill Rand and make Rand worship her. She was pretty pissed at that point though, so who knows what she'd have said. But you are right that Asmodean is not on her list of "things I should to waste a Finn wish on".
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Mar 19, 2013 05:48
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Reminder: Asmodean and Rand were the only two people who knew about Lanfear's plan to betray the Dark One. Reminder: The Shadow doesn't let traitors and prisoners be. It was only a matter of time before Asmodean was reclaimed by the Shadow, and when that happened there is absolutely zero chance he would have kept any secrets. If Lanfear had managed to escape from the Finns, she may have wanted to kill Rand and Aviendha, but killing Asmodean would have been a necessity. Getting caught betraying the Dark One is literally the worst thing that can happen to a person in Randland. As we saw.
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Mar 19, 2013 17:13
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Blind Melon posted:Reminder: Asmodean and Rand were the only two people who knew about Lanfear's plan to betray the Dark One. You are right, betraying the Dark One is pretty bad. Which is exactly what everyone thinks Asmodean did. He got severed from the DO and taught the Dragon Reborn how to channel. Every single Forsaken (except Lanfear) thinks he's a traitor, as does the DO. If he accuses Lanfear of betraying the Dark One, she'll just reply that it is all part of a plot she cooked up to corrupt the Dragon, and it isn't her fault that Asmodean was too stupid to see through it. And to be fair, there is the possibility that this is exactly what she was doing.
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Mar 21, 2013 10:50
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And the Dark One might believe it was an elaborate plot until Asmodean tells the Dark One that Lanfear let Rand keep the Choden'kal (sp?) when Lanfear could have easily taken it away from him. And before you even bring it up, Ishamael, the Dark One's right hand man, believed that taking the Chodean'kal from Rand was the most important thing. There is no way the guy who brutally punishes his minions for simple failure is going to let giving his enemy the most powerful sa'angreal there is slide.
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Mar 21, 2013 22:42
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I'm pretty sure the DO wanted Rand to have the Choedan'kal. If you recall the last scene Rand uses it is in TGS, when he is on the verge of destroying the world. Well, I'm not sure Rand could have destroyed the world with it, but he certainly could have Broken it again. I'm pretty sure that was the moment in time at which the DO was closest to winning. Whatever good Rand was able to do with the Choedan'kal, it had the potential to give the whole game to the DO. For example, if Rand had tried to use the Choedan'kal on the DO, he would have tainted saidin again. If he used it to destroy Ebou Dar, the Seanchan don't fight in the Last Battle. If he uses it to kill Cadsuane... wait, that would have probably been all right. The point is with the Choedan'kal in Rand's hands there are a lot more options for the DO to win. The only thing that Rand really did with it was cleanse saidin. Thought experiment: What would happen if Rand and Lanfear tried to use both Choedan'kal to destroy the DO? Remember, the Choedan'kal can't seal away the Dark One because it doesn't amplify the True Power. What would happen is that the DO would get a clear shot at tainting both Saidin and Saidar. Lanfear's plan can't work, and would probably lead to every unprotected channeler in the world going mad. Somehow, I don't think the DO would try to put a stop to this. As far as Ishamael/Moridin goes, I'm pretty sure the DO was playing him for a sap. He thought he understood the DO best, but he was in reality just the most insane of the DO's minions, who would take the most extreme actions in his service. He was the only person who didn't give a poo poo if the world ended, in fact he wants it to end! Why not do whatever insanity the DO orders? It just brings the sweet end closer.
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Mar 22, 2013 04:30
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