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Can't say I'm entirely surprised to see this: I hope Chris Hayes will offset some of this, but only time will tell: http://stateofthemedia.org/2013/special-reports-landing-page/the-changing-tv-news-landscape/.
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Mar 19, 2013 16:29
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I Dont Like You posted:I think gangraping goes much further past just some stupid teenagers making a mistake. I think it's just troubling in general to hold 16 year olds fully responsible for even the most serious of crimes. We would find it barbaric to execute a 16 year old murderer.
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Mar 19, 2013 16:30
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ShadowCatboy posted:Pretty much my same thought here. Yes what they did amounts to immensive shitheadery and they deserve some legal retribution, but even rapists are still human. Nah, homes. They were convicted in juvenile court, so their records are wiped when they turn 18. They'll graduate and go to college (or wherever they would've gone) once they get out.
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Mar 19, 2013 16:33
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ufarn posted:Can't say I'm entirely surprised to see this: Given that his show is almost entirely people sitting around a table discussing their (mostly well-informed) opinion on things, not likely.
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Mar 19, 2013 16:35
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ufarn posted:Can't say I'm entirely surprised to see this: Ah, poo poo. Well I know what Rush Limbaugh and every other conservative talk radio host are going to be crowing about for weeks. Probably Fox News as well. How much of what Fox News reports is unbiased coverage, though? Yeah, you can say a thing happened without coloring it with opinion but you're still intentionally influencing people by strategically omitting and over-reporting certain things. Monkey Fracas fucked around with this message at 16:38 on Mar 19, 2013 |
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Mar 19, 2013 16:35
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tractor fanatic posted:I think it's just troubling in general to hold 16 year olds fully responsible for even the most serious of crimes. We would find it barbaric to execute a 16 year old murderer. I know that most of us would, but the United States has executed 22 children since 1985, only stopped by a Supreme Court case seven years ago that took 71 kids off death row: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_juvenile_offenders_executed_in_the_United_States
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Mar 19, 2013 16:40
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tractor fanatic posted:I think it's just troubling in general to hold 16 year olds fully responsible for even the most serious of crimes. We would find it barbaric to execute a 16 year old murderer. 16 is getting pretty close, if not well into tried-as-an-adult territory. Hell, it's almost a given that they would have been were it not for the 17-year old's Alabaster Skin of Innocence. FAUXTON fucked around with this message at 17:00 on Mar 19, 2013 |
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Mar 19, 2013 16:40
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Zeroisanumber posted:Nah, homes. They were convicted in juvenile court, so their records are wiped when they turn 18. They'll graduate and go to college (or wherever they would've gone) once they get out. They still have to register as sex offenders as adults.
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Mar 19, 2013 16:42
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watt par posted:They still have to register as sex offenders as adults. Really? I thought that that was sealed too.
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Mar 19, 2013 16:46
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Maybe it'd be a good idea to consider the consequences of being legally labeled as a sex offender before you rape a girl with a few of your friends and then tweet about it. Nothing befell these poor star football players. They got rightfully nabbed for sexually assaulting someone, they are sex offenders. If you've got a problem with that whole system then go ahead and argue that but to me it's pretty cut and dry. It is too bad they're in the situation they're in, they shouldn't have PUT THEMSELVES THERE BY RAPING SOMEONE AND TWEETING ABOUT IT. Jesus Christ.
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Mar 19, 2013 16:47
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The Entire Universe posted:16 is getting pretty close, if not well into tried-as-an-adult territory. Hell, it's almost a given that they would have been were it not for their Alabaster Skin of Innocence. One of them is black: this is much closer to how sports-worship teams up with rape culture to cause huge swaths of people to team up against a victim of rape because they love a game where a man throws a ball.
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Mar 19, 2013 16:50
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Jack Gladney posted:One of them is black: this is much closer to how sports-worship teams up with rape culture to cause huge swaths of people to team up against a victim of rape because they love a game where a man throws a ball. The 17-year old is white. An oversight on my part.
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Mar 19, 2013 17:01
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Phone posted:It's so sad that those rapists lives are being ruined by the justice system. I'm sort of conflicted on this whole issue since the US justice system is hosed up and totally does ruin lives but that really does not excuse rape in any way shape or form. I doubt any news network had that sort of nuance to their commentary though.
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Mar 19, 2013 17:03
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Zeroisanumber posted:Really? I thought that that was sealed too. Nope. Ohio has three tiers of offense, and what they were convicted of falls squarely under Tier III meaning they're on it for the rest of their lives.
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Mar 19, 2013 17:07
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Zeroisanumber posted:Really? I thought that that was sealed too. Varies by state, I think. I know in my state kids as young as 13 have been put on the permanent sex offender registry.
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Mar 19, 2013 17:08
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Lord Lambeth posted:I'm sort of conflicted on this whole issue since the US justice system is hosed up and totally does ruin lives but that really does not excuse rape in any way shape or form. I doubt any news network had that sort of nuance to their commentary though. I don't think there's anything contradictory about on one hand condemning rape and the culture that enables it, while on the other thinking sex offender registries are questionable. Especially when said registries are used to, say, force a group of people into living under bridges.
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Mar 19, 2013 17:11
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Sex Offender registry is kind of hosed. On one hand, I absolutely understand the need to catalog and assess possible threats. At the same time though, we need to consider what we, as leftists, want out of a criminal justice system? Do we desire vengeance or rehabilitation? It goes against my fundamental belief that criminals should be viewed as people in need of fundamental social and psychological support to say they should be cataloged for life as sex offenders. Even the worst criminal has to have a fundamental opportunity for rehabilitation, and a permanent designation that essentially annihilates their life goes against that. Maybe if we had a more sustainable system to allow for reintegration into society and support for psychological needs I could justify it, but as it stands we essentially have a system that tosses criminals who served their time back out without any chance for survival. Its messed up because we are talking about the worst kind of people, but that is the point behind having a civilized criminal justice system (which we don't).
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Mar 19, 2013 17:17
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Seoinin posted:I don't think there's anything contradictory about on one hand condemning rape and the culture that enables it, while on the other thinking sex offender registries are questionable. Especially when said registries are used to, say, force a group of people into living under bridges. Yeah, after all there are countries that prosecute rape without having a public sex offenders registry. I think the main issue for me isn't the treatment of the rapists but that they're given this treatment while the victim is completely ignored or even has her name released on TV. I mean what the gently caress?
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Mar 19, 2013 17:20
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Jack Gladney posted:One of them is black: this is much closer to how sports-worship teams up with rape culture to cause huge swaths of people to team up against a victim of rape because they love a game where a man throws a ball. It's an insensitive notion, but the fact that people are rallying in support behind a black kid raping a white woman has got to say something about modern social dynamics. 60 years ago the kid would have been mobbed. I don't even know what to make of that. hosed up on multiple levels.
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Mar 19, 2013 17:21
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We will call it the post-OJ era
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Mar 19, 2013 17:26
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Zuhzuhzombie!! posted:It's an insensitive notion, but the fact that people are rallying in support behind a black kid raping a white woman has got to say something about modern social dynamics. 60 years ago the kid would have been mobbed. If they didn't also have one of the white kids who were involved dead to rights Ma'lik Richmond would've been tried as an adult.
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Mar 19, 2013 17:30
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I Dont Like You posted:I think gangraping goes much further past just some stupid teenagers making a mistake. I wouldn't underestimate the power of groupthink and mob mentality. Once one guy starts doing horrible poo poo, everyone else is predisposed towards thinking that it's okay. Frankly, I'd place way more culpability on the guy who initiated it than those who followed suit.
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Mar 19, 2013 17:53
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ShadowCatboy posted:I wouldn't underestimate the power of groupthink and mob mentality. Once one guy starts doing horrible poo poo, everyone else is predisposed towards thinking that it's okay. Frankly, I'd place way more culpability on the guy who initiated it than those who followed suit. Yeah people underestimate the influence of your peers unless you've actually been right in the thick of it.
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Mar 19, 2013 17:59
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A DENVER FAX posted:Do we desire vengeance or rehabilitation? Maryland is in the process of removing capital punishment, and the vast majority of the comments surrounding it aren't "what if we make a mistake and sentence an innocent person to die?" it's "WHAT IF SOMEONE STABS A PRISON GUARD AND THEY ALREADY HAVE A LIFE SENTENCE, I DEMAND BLOOD" American culture is still knee deep in revenge fantasies and bloodlust for criminals. We gleefully celebrate prison rape as a form of punishment and our first instinct is to say "not enough time in prison". So, yeah, reform to allow for rehabilitation is an almost Sisyphean task. Criminal justice in America is nothing short of absolute barbarism with a heapin' helpin' of profiteering and any attempt at reform is going to be painted as "liberals" versus "conservatives" because of the money involved.
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Mar 19, 2013 18:22
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In the ongoing saga of The Washington Post versus The Daily Caller versus Sen. Bob Menendez, new evidence emerges! http://www.cnn.com/2013/03/18/politics/menendez-allegations/index.html CNN posted:Three woman in the Dominican Republic were paid to claim, falsely, that they had sex with U.S. Sen. Robert Menendez, police said in a statement Monday. If you'll recall, the Washington Post noted that one of the women involved had come forward to say that she'd lied, which The Daily Caller of course denied, saying it wasn't the right prostitute (and leading to some raised eyebrows). With the new reports, they've said "TheDC has not independently verified the identities of the women involved in the Dominican National Police investigation, but will continue to investigate the case." But wait, what's this from March 5? The Daily Caller posted:The Washington Post falsely reported a story yesterday claiming our source had recanted her statement, without contacting The Daily Caller for comment before posting. In reality, the prostitute in the Post’s story does not appear to be one of the women we interviewed in 2012. Details provided by the prostitute identified as Ms. Santana in the Post story conflict with the taped interviews The Daily Caller posted on November 1, including the mention of a person whose name would not come to light for months afterward. In addition, Melanio Figueroa, the attorney for TheDC’s sources, has said the Post’s allegations are fabricated and that the affidavit is false. The Post would not provide TheDC with a copy of the affidavit, despite our request. We stand by our reporting. I'm not sure if Tucker Carlson has the capacity to feel shame, but with Menendez rightfully calling for federal investigation of who funded the slurs, he might have cause to feel nervous.
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Mar 19, 2013 19:13
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Tucker Carlson does not have the capacity to feel shame. If he did he would have stopped wearing his horrible bow ties years before he stopped doing so after he became aware of people making fun of him for it.
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Mar 19, 2013 19:19
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Zuhzuhzombie!! posted:It's an insensitive notion, but the fact that people are rallying in support behind a black kid raping a white woman has got to say something about modern social dynamics. 60 years ago the kid would have been mobbed. It reveals that latent racism comes in second to small town good ol' boy culture. If this was a case of two random teenage hooligans gang-raping someone they would have been tried as adults, and we would never have heard about it. Instead it was two members of the high school football team, so the locals circle the wagons around them. By the way, this is why nobody should ever treat high school athletes like loving celebrities. Of all people, they are probably the most likely to react extremely poorly to nonstop hero worship and authority figures "looking the other way." More on topic, I found this snippet from the GOP 2012 autopsy interesting: Growth and Opportunity Project posted:The Republican Party needs to stop talking to itself. We have become expert in how to provide ideological reinforcement to like-minded people, but devastatingly we have lost the ability to be persuasive with, or welcoming to, those who do not agree with us on every issue. Sounds like they're describing the right-wing echo chamber to me. Let's see if they have the guts to do anything about it.
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Mar 19, 2013 19:21
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Rhesus Pieces posted:Sounds like they're describing the right-wing echo chamber to me. Let's see if they have the guts to do anything about it. That is interesting. The first step is acknowledging you have a problem.
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Mar 19, 2013 19:46
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Zwabu posted:That is interesting. The first step is acknowledging you have a problem. Step 2 is for everyone else to tell that guy to STFU and get back to hating the gays/blacks.
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Mar 19, 2013 20:17
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ShadowCatboy posted:I wouldn't underestimate the power of groupthink and mob mentality. Once one guy starts doing horrible poo poo, everyone else is predisposed towards thinking that it's okay. Frankly, I'd place way more culpability on the guy who initiated it than those who followed suit. Okay, so prove who initiated it without having anything but second and third hand stories to go on and a victim that wasn't even conscious. You can place as much culpability on the "leader" as you want, but you have no idea who that is and you do not have the evidence to ever make that determination to any legally acceptable standard. Talking about ideal hypotheticals is pointless in almost any situation, but it's exceptionally so when you're discussing a legal case.
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Mar 19, 2013 20:23
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Zeroisanumber posted:The Secret Service goes to ridiculous lengths to secure the president's person. For example: The president never eats at a restaurant unless the Secret Service has procured the food being prepared, transported it to the restaurant, had the president's cook oversee the preparation, and then serves the meal either by themselves or via other trusted and vetted personnel. I'm not surprised that the president has a food taster, I'm more surprised that he bothers to go though all of the hoops necessary to eat outside of the White House at all. If you've ever been to Ben's Chili Bowl, you'd understand.
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Mar 19, 2013 20:56
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Fancy rear end Ho posted:If you've ever been to Ben's Chili Bowl, you'd understand. Which hasn't been any good for a long time now.
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Mar 19, 2013 20:58
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Every single time somebody brings up this case and the terrible media reaction the conversation immediately jumps to how the offenders will be treated. How do you think to do that right after attacking CNN over it?
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Mar 19, 2013 21:58
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FedoraDefender420 posted:Every single time somebody brings up this case and the terrible media reaction the conversation immediately jumps to how the offenders will be treated. How do you think to do that right after attacking CNN over it? Because there is a fundamental difference between treating the offenders as victims and recognizing the criminal justice system is broken?
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Mar 19, 2013 22:10
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FedoraDefender420 posted:Every single time somebody brings up this case and the terrible media reaction the conversation immediately jumps to how the offenders will be treated. How do you think to do that right after attacking CNN over it? Because there's a major difference between discussing what an appropriate punishment is for underage gang rapists and discussing what a tragedy has befallen these young studly football stars and how their lives will be forever changed. The difference is Candy Crowley seemed to have completely forgotten that the courthouse didn't fall out of the sky on top of them for no reason at all.
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Mar 19, 2013 22:21
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A DENVER FAX posted:Reminds me of a documentary I saw called "Manda Bala" which framed the brutality and frequency of kidnappings in Brazil with the relative impunity that the upper class has to break laws and be corrupt. If you're interested, this documentary from 1999 is a sobering http://youtu.be/tOzmkHQ5Bng The most shocking part is the bit by Helio Luz, then public safety secretary, in which he describes with harrowing clarity how much the crime from the favelas is fueled by anger at the system, and that society considers that a fair price compared to actual rebellion. He admits openly that he is there as a wire fence to guard the status quo, not to actually enforce the law or seek justice. Perhaps even more bizarre, he claims that bit would be easy to actually destroy the power base of the drug gangs and establish an egalitarian police force that brought actual security, but that every time it has been tried, the well-off screamed bloody murder and shut it all down. Transcribing the meat of his quote because the subtitles on that video can be a bit finicky: "I'll say it myself: the police force is corrupt. It is an institution that was designed to be corrupt. Violent and corrupt. And people somehow find that strange: why was it created to be violent and corrupt? The police was created to provide State security and safety for the elite. The policy I do is repression policy, pure and simple, understand? For the benefit and protection of the status quo. Just that. To keep the favela under control. How do you keep 2 million people under control, making $60 a month, if that much? How do you keep so many people who are excluded from society in check and restive? Repression, of course. How else would it be possible? It's a true political militia. We have an unfair society and we are here to protect this unfair society. The underprivileged stays under control. Woe unto him if he steps out of line. And our favelas are actually quite sophisticated. Down in South Africa they had to surround the places with barbed wire. Here we don't. And we tell them to shut up, and pay their taxes. People are used to it, understand? They conform. Then the poor devils who have a TV set watch the soap operas full of rich and beautiful people, then open the window and see what their home is. What does that system create? Our luck is that they are not violent. This isn't actual violence. They stay inside the favela. (...) I like to go to the shopping mall in Sao Conrado. To go out to the big balcony they have and have a look. Why? Because you see the Country Club and the largest shantytown in the city (Rocinha), side by side. How could that happen if this was a violent country? Would it even be possible? This is a peaceful country. The public safety policy works efficiently. Now the real question is: Does our society really want a non-corrupt police force? It's easy. Not hard at all. I'm not talking theory here. I've done it in the countryside, teams of 30 people that you can trust not to take bribes. The first 2 months were amazing. People were terrified because the local chief warden had taken over the town's drug dens and gangs. We went in with 30 men, outsiders with good records and oversight. We got applause for 2 months. In the third month, a private security guard punched a kid that was stealing a bottle of liquor at a supermarket. We arrested both the kid and the guard. The owner of the supermarket came to me and said "But mister, it's a drat thief!", and we said "It's not allowed. Guards can't go around hitting people." Both were booked. Suddenly, people and instutitions stopped inviting us over for dinner. People grew colder. The next week a rich landowner murdered someone. We went in and booked him. That was the end. Suddenly we were not 'good people' anymore. So we put the question forward to our society: is there real interest in a non-corrupt police force? Because that police will be like the police in other countries: You can't park in a forbidden zone or you get a ticket. you don't plow through red lights or tag walls. We'd operate in the shantytowns and in Posto 9 (wealthy Rio district). No more sniffing coke, in Ipanema or in the shantytown. There'll be search warrants and doors being kicked down down Delfim Moreira (wealthy beach condo street). Does that sound right? That's how a non-corrupt police operates. It doesn't recognize limits. Can society accept that?" So...something to keep in mind when people start going on about being 'tough on crime'.
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Mar 19, 2013 22:56
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greatn posted:Anderson Cooper at least is promising to focus on the victim tonight, tweeted he will have the mom on. Hmm, I wonder if he'll have the guts to mention the Crowley report, or just offer "the other side" a platform because "the truth doesn't take sides".
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Mar 20, 2013 00:01
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Sephyr posted:If you're interested, this documentary from 1999 is a sobering Well of course. That's what the police in all countries do, to some degree. Protect the morally corrupt system from the people it exploits. And as for crime and punishment, I've got to say that although I strongly feel that rehabilitation should always be the goal of any system of justice rather than retribution, sometimes I see people that have commited such horrible, horrible crimes that I believe they have forfeited their right to live (not saying that is the case with those boys you're talking about). Even then, I still don't think it's morally correct to kill them.
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Mar 20, 2013 00:06
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ufarn posted:Can't say I'm entirely surprised to see this: I'd love to see the methodology behind that. In other news, WHAT THE gently caress: http://mediamatters.org/video/2013/03/19/foxs-bolling-iraq-war-was-the-smartest-thing-ge/193131
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Mar 20, 2013 00:44
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hallebarrysoetoro posted:Maryland is in the process of removing capital punishment, and the vast majority of the comments surrounding it aren't "what if we make a mistake and sentence an innocent person to die?" it's "WHAT IF SOMEONE STABS A PRISON GUARD AND THEY ALREADY HAVE A LIFE SENTENCE, I DEMAND BLOOD" One would think fears of big government and disdain for its inefficiency would apply to the parts that actually are allowed to kill people. One would think.
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