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Dolash posted:Probably what bugs me the most is it really pokes at one of the most irritating issues in Homestuck's plot - at what point does predestination run out? Say you're right, Gamzee couldn't just stomp the newborn cherub because Caliborn needs to complete all these time loops and create Lord English. Why do the time loops for Caliborn ever run out? Why doesn't he just keep getting favorable causal outcomes forever, ones that require Gamzee to keep helping him? Because Caliborn is kind of not very bright. If both the author and an immortal Juggalo are setting him up for a fall under the guise of aiding him, he's pretty much doomed. quote:The story's use of causality can really rob people of agency, especially if they're aware of what they "have" to do, and if Gamzee were to turn around and help defeat Caliborn after doing everything to help him because now destiny leaves him an opening, it's like nothing he ever did was motivated by his own character. It effectively means he's completely self-aware and is only doing what a pre-written plot requires of him. Hypothetically, this is really the only way that halfway competent guy who can manipulate timelines at a whim can be defeated. Play his game by making him think he's in charge, and trick him into setting up the reality you want by making him think he's creating the reality he wants. The alternative is that Gamzee (unkillable character who exists only on the alpha timeline and has been known to go on terrifying murdersprees) actually is Lord English somehow. Maybe by hijacking the Choice offered by Yaldabaoth. This could even be part of the Gamzee is a goodguy theory since LE has to exist anyway, so why not be LE just to make sure Caliborn can't! 
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Mar 20, 2013 02:38
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Gamzee's an extremely troubled youth. Nobody understands him, least of all himself, and nobody's close enough to him to help him. All the problems he's caused probably make sense to him from his own extremely warped worldview, corrupted as it has been by drugs, an evil clown-based religion, a negligent parent, and the stress of being involved in this calamity.
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Mar 20, 2013 02:43
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Caliborn's not just not very bright though - he's clearly not even in control of the time loops, they just happen and have all been beneficial to him so far. I could buy Gamzee having to play the part of the loyal servant if he actually had to trick Caliborn, but he doesn't. At some point causality's going to work against Lord English/Caliborn and there'll be some time loop that helps our heroes defeat him, but I'm just going to wonder why that one was allowed to happen at all. Who is it who made all these other things "necessary" to the alpha timeline in order to build Lord English up, then pulls the rug out from under him? Because at least so far we don't seem to have any reason to believe Lord English/Caliborn is even the one responsible for his own success.
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Mar 20, 2013 02:58
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Well, it could be that Caliborn was never actually in control of anything at all, and Gamzee just used him as a means to an end to put himself in a position where he could rage-destroy everything ever. Hussie is either just as bamboozled as Caliborn, or working with Gamzee to create this universe because it sounded like it'd make a good story / he's a dick / he wanted Vriska to come into existence so he could creep on her. The fun thing about Gamzee as Lord English is that while it seems patently absurd, there are just enough hints sprinkled throughout the comic that it'd appear almost obvious in hindsight if that turned out to be the case. I don't remember Caliborn ever expressing an interest in h0nking, vastly or otherwise. 
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Mar 20, 2013 03:09
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Thundarr posted:The fun thing about Gamzee as Lord English is that while it seems patently absurd, there are just enough hints sprinkled throughout the comic that it'd appear almost obvious in hindsight if that turned out to be the case. I don't remember Caliborn ever expressing an interest in h0nking, vastly or otherwise. I mean lets think about it from a timeline perspective. Caliborn is destined to go backwards-forwards. So he'll become Lord English and Gamzee will pick up the honking from the Mirthful Messiahs own prophecy of a Vast Honk. Then Gamzee meets Caliborn and will likely influence him to pick up that very same honk. Gamzee's honking was picked up from his worshiping of Lord English, and Lord English picked it up from Gamzee as a child! The honk they share was a reach-around influencing mess!
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Mar 20, 2013 03:17
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Of all the Karkat Tantrum Bingo fanart that's been popping up, this is by far my favourite
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Mar 20, 2013 03:26
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Reminder that the last person to underestimate Caliborn's intelligence was his sister, and look how that ended up. Caliborn's borderline mentally deficient in a lot of areas, but really, really smart in several other, very specific ones, specifically involving manipulating others and subverting pre-set rules. His rear end-backwards problem solving methods also have a decent success rate and are difficult to predict by anyone who's (mercifully) not Caliborn. It's not that much of a stretch to believe that the nigh-impenetrable time loops protecting Lord English were knowingly and deliberately set up by Caliborn himself, rather than Gamzee or paradox space or some other third party.
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Mar 20, 2013 03:41
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Gamzee is a good guy, Aradia is a bad guy, alls right in the world There should a song called SerketBr8ker if there isn't already
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Mar 20, 2013 04:07
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Dolash posted:Gamzee being a good guy and doing all this horrible stuff and enabling Caliborn in becoming Lord English just so he can set him up to defeat him later would be an exceptionally lovely twist. The Ultimate Riddle theory post by bladekindeyewear tackles this specific problem - namely, what role does motive play when you have predestined timeloops making GBS threads themselves around four and a bit different universes? TL;DR - the Alpha Timeline is born from the collective wills of the Players. ...In particular, the Time Players (obviously) and those with strong wills/motivations. The last bit is what's important here - causal loops spring into existence which just happen to coincide with the desires of the strong-willed. Bec's prototyping was entirely engineered by Vriska - and while she did have the saving grace of "preserving the timeline" to shelter her from condemnation, the comic makes it clear that she was all too happy to do this, and wanted to be the architect of her own Final Boss. Terezi's Coinflip was already written in the Daves' timeline, but she was quite willing to go along with it. And Caliborn. Caliborn is the most stubborn, strong-willed, motivated rear end in a top hat in Paradox Space, and the most powerful Time Player we know of to boot. Is it any wonder that time loops fall over themselves to favour his will? It's his MO - he is Already There, his entry is a formality, etc. Hence we have the Green Sun convoluted timeline, Doc Scratch's entire existence, the Handmaid's tale (sorry not sorry), Damara's sabotage of her own session... the Alpha Timeline writes itself in favour of him and his servants in subservience. Small wonder he can only be defeated by a glitch. He doesn't need to play outside his rules when they work for him. Now let's look at Gamzee's plot. He's raising his own God, playing an incredibly important role in his own mythology. (This is the equivalent of a Christian going back in time and distracting Joseph for an hour or so while Gabriel appears unto Mary.) And as a result, everyone in creation will die. This is absolutely in line with what Gamzee has wished for in canon - to be the Mirthful Messiahs, and to kill motherfucking everybody. He's acting out the script, sure. But his fervent wishes - coupled with Caliborn's influence on the Alpha Timeline to ensure his personal history - have written the script. He is required to do exactly what he wants more than anything else in the world. He is author and actor both. {/meta] Freudian fucked around with this message at 10:34 on Mar 21, 2013 |
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Mar 20, 2013 04:23
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So basically Koos Was Right
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Mar 20, 2013 04:25
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Freudian posted:TL;DR - the Alpha Timeline is born from the collective wills of the Players. I more or less agree with this interpretation, at least insofar as it means characters act according to their motivations and the timeline is mostly written around that. Aradia, for example, is a fatalist, so she does whatever she's "supposed" to do. Gamzee doing what he does because of his belief in the whole mirthful messiah thing and killing everyone is also very characterful. If it turned out all of that was an act in order to defeat Caliborn and he'd been faking all along, though, that wouldn't really go well with the above, or at least would be painfully contrived. bigmcgaffney posted:So basically Koos Was Right Is there not already a Koos account named Koos Was Right?
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Mar 20, 2013 04:30
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My understanding of the Alpha Timeline was that it was something created by Lord English and even Doc Scratch, not so much the collective wills of everyone else. Take this quote from the Scratch intermission.quote:I've never much enjoyed navigating the vortices of alternative possibility. The path which alone has my absolute mastery is the alpha timeline, a continuum I define as that which boasts exclusive rights both to my birth and to my death, two circumstantially simultaneous events. Note the bolded part in particular. Both of these events are directly linked to Lord English. Doc Scratch's birth means that there is a way for Lord English to enter the session. His death is the execution of that entrance. If this is how the Alpha Timeline is defined then that means Lord English has control of it. And why wouldn't he? He's the Lord of Time. At some point Caliborn is going to turn the clock and go backwards and write the histories of many universes such as Alternia in A2. It's no wonder when world-building segments come up we get a picture of Caliborn being excited - he is a future world builder of his own, creating cultures that will bend to his will and go as he wants them to go. His top servant and vessel is an omnipotent and omniscient puppet who unconditionally serves him. Oxxidation is right in saying that Caliborn is not smart in the conventional sense, but he doesn't have to be when the JuJu that he will create and infuse himself in (Doc Scratch) can cover that portion for him. The Alpha Timeline is Caliborn's timeline. It is the timeline that he created to serve his own means, because it is the timeline that will lead to his birth and his death. This is why I'm thinking Lord English will in fact be defeated. But defeat does not mean a happy ending. For even after he dies, he will be born in the universe that the B2 session will create.
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Mar 20, 2013 04:38
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What puzzles me about Gamzee is his expressions, more than anything else. Some one already pointed out the jovial expression he had cuddling Calliope. There's also the shocked and dismayed reaction to Fefeta's death, not to mention his as-yet unknown motives for resurrecting his dead troll pals through the sprites in the first place. Gamzee is an enigma wrapped in a mystery and enormous codpieces.
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Mar 20, 2013 04:54
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lotus circle posted:For even after he dies, he will be born in the universe that the B2 session will create. a) We don't really know this. If anything the signs are pointing to the cherubs planet being back in the Alternia-verse (troll aversion to angels, giant serpents being a part of their folklore, the troll (colony?) being destroyed). Although getting Earth/the meteor back to A2 poses some problems, you're right in that it'd be probably be 'easier' to get them into the universe Jade brought, once/assuming it gets set up, so we'll see (or be told by Aranea  )b) So what if Caliborn will be born in the future if Lord English is dead now? That's a hard stop on him. Yes, all the destruction he caused in the past of his personal timeline will still have happened/still need to happen in respect to regular causality but he won't be doing anything else. Think of it back-ways: if Dave from point 'B' on the timeline were to go back in time to point 'A' and die (like full stop alpha Dave is dead, no beta timelines) well, he's dead. Even though technically there's still a Dave in the future at point B, his personal timeline is to go back and die. No reaching point C. You're saying that Lord English dying in the past/now isn't a real victory because he came from the future, but that's like saying that Dave dying in the past isn't bad because he came from the future. Either way they're both dead, they just haven't caught up to it yet. edit: I mean it'd still be a melancholy victory for sure, lots of people are (double)dead (assuming no mass resurrections) but that's just like any other 'victory at a cost' story that doesn't bring in time travel. The villain is gone and can't do any more damage than already done, but all the previous damage still happened. Same here. Mazerunner fucked around with this message at 05:06 on Mar 20, 2013 |
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Mar 20, 2013 04:58
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Dolash posted:Caliborn's not just not very bright though - he's clearly not even in control of the time loops, they just happen and have all been beneficial to him so far. I could buy Gamzee having to play the part of the loyal servant if he actually had to trick Caliborn, but he doesn't. I wouldn't say "clearly" that he's not in control of the time loops. The thing about time loops is that it can be hard to tell what or who caused them until later on. Much of the early comic composed of things happening that we had no idea how or why they happened. (Such as how BecJack got into the Troll's session, especially.) For all we know, we're due for a montage or flash about how a later, post-game Caliborn or Lord English's power help to set up various circumstances leading to his own further rise to power. Even if it just involved him nudging the dice to do so, metaphorically.
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Mar 20, 2013 05:16
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Beasteh posted:Of all the Karkat Tantrum Bingo fanart that's been popping up, this is by far my favourite This is great. Marking the kinds of tantrums he has is a better idea than things he has tantrums about because with the latter the card is full before you even begin.
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Mar 20, 2013 05:32
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Random musing re: Karkat and Gamzee: We are (asymptotically) approaching the End Game. We have a poo poo ton of characters, but only one real villain, so what are most of the characters going to be doing for the climax? I mean, there's quite a few people caught up in various aspects of Lord English's mythos who will play a role in his defeat. But what about scrubs like Karkat who are really important characters, but aren't so ~fated~ to play a role? Well rather than taking on LE, he could help contribute to taking out his henchman... follower... stepfather... clown... Err, basically Karkat might (help) take out Gamzee in the ~final battle~, but obviously not in like combat or anything Karkat sucks at like that but like extreme relationship skills. Like Shoosh Pap, but either more permanent or fatal. Either way. That means building up Gamzee, as he has been, would make Karkat's contribution more significant. Though knowing Homestuck, there's going to be a ton of pointed anticlimaxes for various characters, so this isn't exactly sound logic for guessing the story structure.
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Mar 20, 2013 05:41
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My thought is that, if a bad guy is destined to rise to power, what is the worst way you could screw him over? Make the rise as easy as possible. That way, when the destined part is over, and he has to fall back on his skills and abilities, he's completely unprepared. I sort of wonder if Gamzee (and narrator-Hussie) are doing this to Caliborn. Hussie gives him game hints so he doesn't have to figure out the puzzles himself, and Gamzee keeps handing him items so he doesn't have to explore on his own. It's really hard to guess Gamzee's motives because he acts differently every time we see him. Sometimes he's goofy. Sometimes he's angry. Sometimes he's completely tame. He doesn't want to hurt Karkat's feelings, but he has no problem tormenting Terezi. Did he black out his name from Rose's book to hide it from Calliope or Caliborn? Did he prototype trolls to bring them back to life or to further some nefarious goal? He seemed genuinely freaked out when Lil' Cal winked at him, but he still delivered it to Jack.
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Mar 20, 2013 06:23
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Clowns, man. Muthafuckin' clowns. Basically what I'm saying is gently caress that guy.
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Mar 20, 2013 07:31
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Oxxidation posted:Reminder that the last person to underestimate Caliborn's intelligence was his sister, and look how that ended up. This. The fact that the first thing Caliborn did when he encountered a clown with horrifying facial scars and wearing a massive codpiece was to mow it down with an assault rifle is itself pretty solid proof that Caliborn is smarter than most of the other characters. I seriously don't understand how anyone can look at Gamzee and think that he appears trust-worthy. I also don't get why some people call Caliborn a weakling. Did they not see him bite off his own freaking leg and turn Jack Noir into a horrifying puppet monster? 
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Mar 20, 2013 08:05
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No.44 posted:This. Yeah, Caliborn is stupid, horrible and excels in the most brutish way possible: he just keeps throwing himself at the problem until it gives in. He's like an evolutionary force, red in tooth and claw, willing to do absolutely anything by tiny increments over insufferably lengthy periods of time if it will help him WIN. Caliborn is a force of nature, in the same way that a strain of blood mite evolving over a million thousand mindlessly hungry incarnations to be able to successfully parasitise a cat's tongue is a force of nature.
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Mar 20, 2013 08:36
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No.44 posted:The fact that the first thing Caliborn did when he encountered a clown with horrifying facial scars and wearing a massive codpiece was to mow it down with an assault rifle is itself pretty solid proof that Caliborn is smarter than most of the other characters. Shooting it down as soon as he saw it was also Caliborn's reaction to a friendly turtle. Don't confuse almost omnicidal rage and murderous tendancies with smarts.
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Mar 20, 2013 08:36
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^^^ Hey man, that turtle was going to die when he blew up that planet anyway. It was clearly a mercy killing. You are right though, that isn't the best example. The times when he emotionally manipulated the Alpha kids made it much more clear that he knows exactly what to do to get the reactions he wants from others.
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Mar 20, 2013 08:45
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Cthulhuchan posted:Clowns, man. Muthafuckin' clowns. I'm still on the fence as to whether I believe Hussie's spiel about clowns being a force of inscrutible randomness and nothing more, being Gamzee's entire character arc now forever. On one hand, Hussie has past proven more than capable of aiming square for the low-hanging fruit and doing exactly as he says. On the other hand, sometimes he's hammered red herrings into us the size of tour buses, only to pull out the rug later with a reveal that completely blindsides us, but seemed obvious what a trick it was in hindsight. So whether it's Hussie just being Hussie or not, I'm going to continue to be suspicious of the clown, and wonder if there really is something going on in there which will make sense later, for good or ill. Besides, it's fun to hold out hope for a less-likely guess. team overhead smash posted:Shooting it down as soon as he saw it was also Caliborn's reaction to a friendly turtle. Don't confuse almost omnicidal rage and murderous tendancies with smarts. That turtle was coming right for him, and you know it.
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Mar 20, 2013 09:12
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Cthulhuchan posted:Clowns, man. Muthafuckin' clowns. Gamzee owns Kurloz owns The Grand Highblood owns. All Makaras own forever the end
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Mar 20, 2013 09:13
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SteelAngel2000 posted:Gamzee owns I don't get it. You just listed a bunch of dudes who suck??? also his name is carlos
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Mar 20, 2013 09:18
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No.44 posted:^^^ Hey man, that turtle was going to die when he blew up that planet anyway. It was clearly a mercy killing. I'm not sure this is a great example either, if by 'emotionally manipulate', you mean 'go on and on and on at them until they gave in' Jake: Will basically do anything anyone tells him to anyway - no great challenge Jane: Mainly just insulted her a bunch? Dirk: Enjoyed drawing ironic porn anyway Not exactly a subtle manipulator as much as a petulant child
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Mar 20, 2013 09:56
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Caliborn's MO is brute force, apparently in more ways than one. Who knows how many lifespans of universes he's lived out solely for the apparent purpose of courting and/or destroying his sister. I almost wonder if the endgame of Homestuck is to let him kill Calliope, and then he ends his tour of destruction just because he has nothing left to fight for.
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Mar 20, 2013 10:57
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SteelAngel2000 posted:Gamzee owns This sounds like something a clown would say. :stinkeye: VV got my stinkeye on tha both of yas VV Cthulhuchan fucked around with this message at 11:44 on Mar 20, 2013 |
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Mar 20, 2013 11:23
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I'm actually legit kinda bored with things going from "Vriska did it" to "Gamzee did it." It's much more fun to hate Vriska for being a horrible, irredeemable bitch than it is Gamzee. Edit: also, did a GIS for "irredeemable bitch" and, news at 11, it's Vriska. Roger Explosion fucked around with this message at 11:44 on Mar 20, 2013 |
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Mar 20, 2013 11:41
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Tenebrais posted:Caliborn's MO is brute force, apparently in more ways than one. Who knows how many lifespans of universes he's lived out solely for the apparent purpose of courting and/or destroying his sister. Hah! I think that was how the story began, not how it will end. (Also, I suspect that inflicting boredom on Jack Noir's BFF is liable to work about as well as inflicting it on the man himself.) Iny fucked around with this message at 11:55 on Mar 20, 2013 |
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Mar 20, 2013 11:53
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Roger Explosion posted:Edit: also, did a GIS for "irredeemable bitch" and, news at 11, it's Vriska. Oh my god, I am so glad I checked.
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Mar 20, 2013 12:49
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Dolash posted:Gamzee being a good guy and doing all this horrible stuff and enabling Caliborn in becoming Lord English just so he can set him up to defeat him later would be an exceptionally lovely twist. But they already have a way to destroy Caliborn/LE. Dirk's denizen is Yaldabaoth, and Aranea's story pretty much outlined just how the choice Yaldabaoth gives can stop LE.
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Mar 20, 2013 12:54
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Using Yaldabaoth to stop LE is a twisty path, because it seems like only a handful of people could be capable of even understanding him, which would be a prereq for making a Choice. Plus, we know that a denizen can give different choices at different points. So there's no guarantee that if you got, say, Dirk, to Caliborn's planet, that you'd be able to offer the same deal. It will probably be one fragment in a hugh multipronged plan, but it's not the quick win that you suggest.
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Mar 20, 2013 14:15
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Dirk doesn't need to go to Caliborn's planet, Yaldabaoth is already his denizen.
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Mar 20, 2013 14:55
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of bees posted:But they already have a way to destroy Caliborn/LE. Dirk's denizen is Yaldabaoth, and Aranea's story pretty much outlined just how the choice Yaldabaoth gives can stop LE. You know, Yaldabaoth's Choice is actually way more significant than I thought. It basically means that Lord English and everything he has done is effectively sanctioned by Paradox Space. He didn't break the game and force it to give him power, all his overwriting of its systems with Doc Scratch and so on was not him dominating the game - not really. The game made him this villain and gave him the power to mess with the multiverse, and even built in the method of his own defeat with the other side of the choice. Which is kind of a let-down, I think. It makes Lord English really just another pawn of the game. I thought he had stolen his power against Sburb's will, but now he's really just an upjumped imp. Sburb's responsible for all his villainy. I much preferred the idea that Lord English was an independent organism (even if he'd had help from his future self to make himself) who owned his evil acts because he's a big evil monster. I hope the villain behind Lord English is revealed to be Sburb itself and our heroes have to take on the laws of the cosmos, but I suspect it won't be.
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Mar 20, 2013 15:08
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Cthulhuchan posted:Dirk doesn't need to go to Caliborn's planet, Yaldabaoth is already his denizen. Dolash posted:I hope the villain behind Lord English is revealed to be Sburb itself and our heroes have to take on the laws of the cosmos, but I suspect it won't be. I actually had a similar thought, though not Sburb but Skaia being responsible. Remember that Sburb is just the game used to access the session. Skaia is the actual omnipresent entity that changes the session based on what happens before and during the game, according to what Rose said. If Skaia is willingly allowing Caliborn to get such unprecedented power by even having such a Choice exist (Yalda is just a game construct after all, much like Jack Noir) then it could mean that it sees Caliborn as a way to continue it's own existence (as Caliborn will go on to influence events so greatly that sessions will be successful because he wants them to be). lotus circle fucked around with this message at 15:12 on Mar 20, 2013 |
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Mar 20, 2013 15:09
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While a second Yaldaboath Choice will indeed probably be instrumental in the endgame, I doubt Dirk will get the same options as Caliborn because, as others have pointed out, Choices seem to be mostly tailored to players/sessions. And just to further muddy things, it's not clear at all what the obverse of Caliborn's Choice entailed anyhow. "Sacrifice yourself to stop something bad from happening later" is pretty vague, especially when "embark on a tedious quest" turned out to mean "play an obtuse game of cosmic billiards while marshaling a leprechaun army."
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Mar 20, 2013 15:11
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Someone else suggested this, but we still don't know who all of the trolls' (both Alternia AND Beforus) denizens were. One of them could have been offered the same choice by Yaldaboath, and taken him up on it. edit: OH DANG WHAT IF IT WAS MEENAH Admiral Lasers fucked around with this message at 15:25 on Mar 20, 2013 |
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Mar 20, 2013 15:16
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lotus circle posted:That isn't really the point. Every denizen gives the player they are assigned to a different Choice. Caliborn got his Choice because it was an extreme situation. He was in a dead session, with no land, no consorts and was stuck there. Dirk's session isn't the same as Caliborn's, so the Choice wouldn't be the same as well. The only denizen who probably gives similar choices is Echidna because hers tend to deal with The Scratch.
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Mar 20, 2013 15:18
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