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Chainclaw posted:It looks like the safest place to work is a console game studio with a Metacritic average above 80. I wonder what would happen to the numbers if he extrapolated independent vs publisher-driven studios?
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Mar 21, 2013 19:52
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Chainclaw posted:San Francisco seems the safest area to work, from that data. As far as Bay Area is concerned, that's very true all across the software industry. As a dev, you get laid off, you walk across the street to the next building and get a job there at some other big name firm (or any startup, nowadays). The downside is that your salary implicitly accounts for that, so you have to live with a very considerable paycut. I know game programmers who worked on AAA projects since 2007 and just now are breaking into the 6 figures, while many software companies in the area will pay fresh college grads more than that. DreadCthulhu fucked around with this message at 20:11 on Mar 21, 2013 |
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Mar 21, 2013 20:05
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In console space, independent studios still need publishers to secure contracts, and keep them long enough to ship games. Studios like Gas Powered Games and Obsidian are independent, but still had layoffs when publishing gigs fell through. I'm also wondering if a lot of indie studios didn't even make it to that report. Small studios are shut down or just fade away all the time before they ever even ship a game, and you rarely hear about it when a studio hasn't shipped a game yet. It would be harder to acquire the information for, but I would love to see a chart showing studio growth in the year preceding layoffs, as well as a comparison of places showing average time at the company of people who were and were not laid off, and a chart showing average number of years of industry experience of people before and after layoffs. Layoffs by discipline would also be useful to know. Layoffs aren't going to be an even split, some places might keep more designers, some might keep more programmers. I imagine artists were hit the hardest as a discipline last year. A tear down of layoffs by artist discipline would be useful for a lot of my artist friends looking for work to know where to focus. Is non-outsourced demand for animators higher or lower than that for environment artists? Obviously UI positions are in huge demand right now across the board.
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Mar 21, 2013 20:12
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We had a pie eating contest on pi day! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMBII9ZueYs My intern Nick is the far right, and his performance dissappointed me. He blamed it on not liking cherry pie. Irish Taxi Driver fucked around with this message at 20:27 on Mar 21, 2013 |
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Mar 21, 2013 20:23
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Chainclaw posted:In console space, independent studios still need publishers to secure contracts, and keep them long enough to ship games. Studios like Gas Powered Games and Obsidian are independent, but still had layoffs when publishing gigs fell through. I think layoffs are pretty spiky, and yeah, if you break them down by discipline it's probably a lot more revealing. Blizzard's layoffs, which were specifically mentioned, were 90% outside of development. 38 Studios obviously hit development a lot harder, but still it's more indicative of their particular failings vs. the state of the industry as a whole.
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Mar 21, 2013 20:41
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Diplomaticus posted:Holy poo poo, thank you. I worked on Dragonrealms and it's awesome to hear that people still think of it fondly. Interestingly, it took more than 15 years for Dragonrealms to embrace microtransactions and RMT (by this I mean the Simu Shop, not selling GM-assisted in-game weddings/name changes). It was probably the first online game I played with any sort of regularity, and it's far and away the most interesting MMO-like I've played to this day. The way it tried to describe combat without actually using numbers was amazing for an RPG, and I still think the skill and experience system with modifications could still be a great way to discourage mindless grinding as a form of character progression while still feeling justified from the player's perspective. It's kinda shocking it took them so long to start using microtransactions. Their playerbase seems to me to be absolutely perfect for that kind of model, but perhaps it was a concern that they might undermine the legitimacy of the world.
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Mar 21, 2013 20:41
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DreadCthulhu posted:As far as Bay Area is concerned, that's very true all across the software industry. As a dev, you get laid off, you walk across the street to the next building and get a job there at some other big name firm (or any startup, nowadays). The downside is that your salary implicitly accounts for that, so you have to live with a very considerable paycut. I know game programmers who worked on AAA projects since 2007 and just now are breaking into the 6 figures, while many software companies in the area will pay fresh college grads more than that. Also 6 figures in the Bay Area is in no way similar to 6 figures in most other parts of the country. Even with the insane housing prices in Orange County I get dizzy looking at real estate listings in the Bay Area.
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Mar 21, 2013 20:43
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djkillingspree posted:Also 6 figures in the Bay Area is in no way similar to 6 figures in most other parts of the country. Even with the insane housing prices in Orange County I get dizzy looking at real estate listings in the Bay Area. Exactly, that puts another huge dent as well. You get a haircut around the Bay no matter what, unless you manage to negotiate really really well, which I don't know how often works at game companies. Back a few years ago WA was a good place to be with the high salaries and low housing costs, I don't know if things finally caught up. Seattle/Kirkland/Bellevue were going up in price pretty rapidly.
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Mar 21, 2013 20:46
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Chainclaw posted:Dan Teasdale from Twisted Pixel made a bunch of graphs based on the layoffs in the games industry from last year: http://penny-arcade.com/report/article/na Thanks for that read - really interesting. Though, Baltimore not even part of the data. 
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Mar 21, 2013 22:29
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DreadCthulhu posted:As far as Bay Area is concerned, that's very true all across the software industry. As a dev, you get laid off, you walk across the street to the next building and get a job there at some other big name firm (or any startup, nowadays). The downside is that your salary implicitly accounts for that, so you have to live with a very considerable paycut. I know game programmers who worked on AAA projects since 2007 and just now are breaking into the 6 figures, while many software companies in the area will pay fresh college grads more than that. I think this has more to do with lots of people in games failing at assertiveness. This is also part of the problem with crunch. If you are looking for a job while employed it is very easy to just walk away from offers that don't pay what you are worth.
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Mar 22, 2013 02:05
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devilmouse posted:On that note, if anyone's going to be out at PAX and wants to come to the Microsoft NERD party thing on Thursday night before the show, holler and I'll send you the code for free tickets. Hey-O! I'll be running all over Pax East this weekend. Would love to hang if you're around. PM me here or at tvacgamer on reddit and I'll get you my contact info (open invite to anyone on the thread).
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Mar 22, 2013 12:27
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And as if to go against the statistics being discussed here, I've just been offered a job at a AAA UK studio. I say offered as I need to complete a phone interview later with another AAA UK Studio, so I need to get on with that and hopefully get to choose.
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Mar 22, 2013 13:45
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BizarroAzrael posted:And as if to go against the statistics being discussed here, I've just been offered a job at a AAA UK studio. Sweet. Grats dude. You've been working at this for a while and now it's paying off. 
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Mar 22, 2013 14:05
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Well, this new Blizzard game is going to make them a ton of money, even though I'm not personally interested in it. I'm more excited for what other "small epics" they may be getting into, and pushing the mobile gaming envelope.
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Mar 22, 2013 16:40
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See, I'm not that massively surprised by it. Like, it's a little unexpected but I don't think I'm all that surprised. The Warcraft CCG did crazy business but it wasn't something that Blizzard could really control so when active development on that came to a halt it was really only a matter of time before the concept got brought back in some form or another.
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Mar 22, 2013 18:21
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Also Duels of the Planeswalkers did big business for Magic and Wizards, and led to need customers in other parts of the business, this could do something similar. Though possibly also for Wizards if the old WoW TCG is anything to go by.
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Mar 22, 2013 18:30
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Magic makes some loving absurd amount of money for Wizards/Hasbro - also Wizards weren't involved with the production of the WoW CCG as far as I remember.
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Mar 22, 2013 18:32
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This popped up in my facebook thingy a bit ago via someone I know at uhh ubisoft I think (I'm terrible at remembering this stuff some times) Anyway there's a company who's aiming to replace scaleform as the go-to UI middleware for games, so I became a bit curious and I was wondering what opinions of it may be. Anybody hear of / have thoughts on http://coherent-labs.com/
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Mar 22, 2013 20:58
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I'm planning on graduating with a computer engineering degree shortly and have been making games throughout my time at university. How should I construct a portfolio when I apply for programming positions? Should I create a website or should I use Dropbox?
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Mar 22, 2013 21:15
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Juc66 posted:This popped up in my facebook thingy a bit ago via someone I know at uhh ubisoft I think (I'm terrible at remembering this stuff some times) I like it because it's not Flash, but realistically, that's their only major selling point. Everything they showed was "we're like ScaleForm, but you can use HTML!"... and that's not a selling point to anyone looking at having to retrain their entire UI team. Shalinor fucked around with this message at 21:22 on Mar 22, 2013 |
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Mar 22, 2013 21:20
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Jaytan posted:I think this has more to do with lots of people in games failing at assertiveness. This is also part of the problem with crunch. If you are looking for a job while employed it is very easy to just walk away from offers that don't pay what you are worth. I don't think any amount of assertiveness is going to convince a typical game studio to give a fresh college grad six figures a year. Here's Develop's salary survey: https://www.develop-online.net/features/1803/Develop-Salary-Survey-2013-The-results. Median salary globally is £34,183 ($52,088), but it's skewed toward UK developers whose average salary is a bit low. Game Developer Magazine also has an annual survey with a larger sample size that is more US-based, and the last time I checked (a couple of years ago), the average salary (I assume the mean average) was $80,000 with artists making a bit less at $70,000, programmers making a bit more at $90,000, and entry-level & QA guys making way less ($40,000), which lines up with my personal experiences. edit: The only discipline where the average is six-figures across the board at all experience levels is business. Even programmers don't average six figures unless they have a doctoral degree. emoticon fucked around with this message at 22:39 on Mar 22, 2013 |
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Mar 22, 2013 22:34
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Shalinor posted:I expect something like this will become the standard, but I doubt it will be soon. You're going to see a lot of these pop up, some might catch on, ScaleForm might buy one out, etc. I also didn't see any mention of animation tools, and to me that seems like the nut you really have to crack if you want to supplant Flash/Scaleform. waffledoodle fucked around with this message at 23:18 on Mar 22, 2013 |
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Mar 22, 2013 23:15
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Despite it's humble looking website, for Scaleform replacement, the answer is Iggy by RADTools. It uses SWFs and is way better in every way.
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Mar 22, 2013 23:44
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Harold Krell posted:I'm planning on graduating with a computer engineering degree shortly and have been making games throughout my time at university. Don't use Dropbox. A few companies have that blocked. Use a goon host found in SA-Mart and then once you buy hosting/a domain there should be a CPanel to install Wordpress or some other easy template style site.
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Mar 23, 2013 00:50
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Sion posted:Magic makes some loving absurd amount of money for Wizards/Hasbro - also Wizards weren't involved with the production of the WoW CCG as far as I remember. Sorry, lazy posting on my phone, I was being a bit cynical and saying that people that start playing the WoW TCG tend to end up playing Magic instead.
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Mar 23, 2013 01:49
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Wow how come the uk games industry pays less than everywhere else! Are games devs in America and Canada considered quite well off? $70k a year sounds mad, especially when I always thought the uk had a higher cost of living.
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Mar 23, 2013 11:06
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concerned mom posted:Wow how come the uk games industry pays less than everywhere else! I reckon it's mostly Studios loving off to the o glorious land of milk and honey Canada and major shutdowns flooded the job market with dizzying amounts of majorly experienced dudes, while the number of young aspiring student/graduate types continues to grow. We weren't that huge an industry to begin with really. The UK has only just jumped on the tax relief bandwagon and apparently we're already seeing some returns from that http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-21828869 Couldn't tell you about cost of living as my perspective was hosed a bit when I moved from Middlesbrough, nowadays even more of a bombsite than when I studied there - to Leamington Spa and eating £375 a month rent each with a bro of mine. GeeCee fucked around with this message at 12:13 on Mar 23, 2013 |
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Mar 23, 2013 12:06
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I'd say it was because the economy is in the shitter thanks to financial deregulation... but the US is the same.  Middlesbrough. My homeland and ancestral lands for many generations.  "People are leaving because of the uncertainty in the town. In Gresham we have 1,500 homes scheduled to be demolished but we do not have a plan for what will be developed on the area where the homes will be cleared. Grove Hill is now like going through Beirut and it is heartbreaking to see what has happened in St Hilda’s" - Councillor Ken Walker, 2009
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Mar 23, 2013 13:07
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I think some of it is certain places skewing the statistics with the shoddy practices we see every week or so in the blog portion of The Trenches. If it's any consolation, I think it's those places that are dying off as they tend to be the one run by people who took credit for something in the 80's and have been coasting on that ever since without really having the aptitude to run a company or team, or even necessarily to to make a game.
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Mar 23, 2013 13:48
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I guess what I'm really asking though is are game dev wages considered a decent well paid wage in the Americas? Like I'd consider being on £45k a year very comfortably off. Does it reflect like that there?
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Mar 23, 2013 14:06
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concerned mom posted:I guess what I'm really asking though is are game dev wages considered a decent well paid wage in the Americas? Like I'd consider being on £45k a year very comfortably off. Does it reflect like that there? QA wages are considered rather bad, programmer wages are seen as decent. But keep in mind the cost of living in the USA varies rather massively from location to location, and to a lesser degree it's like that in Canada too.
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Mar 23, 2013 14:39
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concerned mom posted:Wow how come the uk games industry pays less than everywhere else! Are games devs in America and Canada considered quite well off? $70k a year sounds mad, especially when I always thought the uk had a higher cost of living. Keep in mind that the UK survey uses median average rather than the mean: quote:We’ve calculated the result above on these pages as a median average, rather than a mean average. A mean average would otherwise distort the numbers by including a group of very senior contributors who have kindly taken part to help form data in higher tiers. Although £36,523 ($55,617) is still way lower than the US averages  edit: concerned mom posted:I guess what I'm really asking though is are game dev wages considered a decent well paid wage in the Americas? Like I'd consider being on £45k a year very comfortably off. Does it reflect like that there? Senior game developers are actually pretty well off but due to the disparity between how much a senior is paid versus how much a entry level/indie dev is paid, there is a bit of a perception that most game developers live on ramen noodles. However, even a senior game programmer makes less and works more hours than he would have at a regular software job in Silicon Valley, so... edit2: For comparison quote:While inflation-adjusted ("real") household income had been increasing almost every year from 1945 to 1999, it has since been flat and even decreased recently. U.S. median household income fell from $51,144 in 2010 to $50,502 in 2011. Extreme poverty in the United States, meaning households living on less than $2 per day before government benefits, doubled from 1996 to 1.5 million households in 2011, including 2.8 million children. Source https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_States emoticon fucked around with this message at 19:36 on Mar 23, 2013 |
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Mar 23, 2013 19:26
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Yeah it depends what you are doing. A starting artist gig is like 45k to 60k a year. Which isn't bad. Just don't expect to get a place in SF though. Environmental artists though? 120k a year at least. It's probably the hardest job though considering you are basically the core essential artist for the game. And yes QA wages are not something to live off. You only make 12 an hr. That's like.. what 22k for a year? Yeah good luck trying to live off that. NOW that's someone living off ramen noodles.
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Mar 23, 2013 19:48
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Shindragon posted:Environmental artists though? 120k a year at least. What? That's absurdly ridiculous. Where the hell you getting your information and if it's true I want to know where that is lol
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Mar 23, 2013 19:57
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No kidding, I've been an environment artist for 10 years now and that number is nuts!
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Mar 23, 2013 19:59
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Yeah either that's crazy high or Shindragon works at some super wealthy studio. Generally, you're not going to be making six figures unless you're management (art director?), business, or a lead programmer.
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Mar 23, 2013 20:08
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ceebee posted:Don't use Dropbox. A few companies have that blocked. Use a goon host found in SA-Mart and then once you buy hosting/a domain there should be a CPanel to install Wordpress or some other easy template style site. Thanks, I'll try that. As a follow-up, would it benefit me in any way if one of my demos was a GameMaker project? Also, how will interviewers know that the games I upload to the site were created by me? I've uploaded some other projects before under a pseudonym and I wouldn't want them to think I'm plagiarizing someone else's work.
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Mar 23, 2013 20:10
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Maybe not base salary but after a couple of shipped titles an engineer should be pulling in six figures after bonuses, at least on the west coast. Game developer magazine publishes a yearly salary survey, I found it useful to buy a digital copy of that issue when I was in salary negotiations.
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Mar 23, 2013 20:12
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Paniolo posted:Maybe not base salary but after a couple of shipped titles an engineer should be pulling in six figures after bonuses, at least on the west coast. Game developer magazine publishes a yearly salary survey, I found it useful to buy a digital copy of that issue when I was in salary negotiations.
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Mar 23, 2013 20:14
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emoticon posted:Yeah either that's crazy high or Shindragon works at some super wealthy studio. Generally, you're not going to be making six figures unless you're management (art director?), business, or a lead programmer. Well I am working at Lucasarts.  (ILM and the animation studio are here as well)To be clear, when I said hard I mean like in certain places like Microsoft, Insomniac, Naughty Dog. A Senior Enviroment artist pulls in around 100k or more. Lucasarts is like roughly 90k or more. Hell at ND a regular EVA gets like 70k. A starting EVA is mostly likely to net around 40k of course. Edit: You be suprised Shalinor. Some places have artist make more than the engineer. More of the exception than the rule but look hard enough and it's there. That is to say I'm not trying to break into the AAA immediately. With like the 20 or so small moblie companies around, it's a good place to start.Worst comes to worst I"ll end up at Zynga. (not so bad considering half my QA team from Sony SCEA is now there)http://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/environmental-artist-salary-SRCH_KO0,20.htm Not sure how legit glass door is so correct me if I"m wrong that if isn't a reliable source. Shindragon fucked around with this message at 20:33 on Mar 23, 2013 |
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Mar 23, 2013 20:25
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