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Bartlett got pissed because someone under him made the decision for him, even though it would have been what he would've done. That's why he fired Toby instead of letting him resign.
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Mar 6, 2013 23:53
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He fired Toby because he had to, and I don't think, between the "I don't want you for a minute to think I'm one of them" speech and the turmoil over the pardon, that there's much room to debate what Bartlet thought about what Toby did.
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Mar 7, 2013 02:56
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I didn't mean that it would fit more with Bartlett's character, just that it would fit more for Toby's. I can just about see him being willing to take the fall for the President, though I think he'd be kind of resentful about it. My mum is notorious for making wildly off-base interpretations of things. She doesn't pay enough attention. I just thought it was kind of amusing.
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Mar 7, 2013 08:52
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Maud Moonshine posted:My mum is notorious for making wildly off-base interpretations of things. She doesn't pay enough attention. She'd be right at home in the Walking Dead thread.
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Mar 7, 2013 15:35
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I always felt Bartlet's anger at Toby seemed over the top. Sure, what the guy did was wrong but he also saved social security and was one of the minds behind that tuition dealie. He solo'd at least one SoU and wrote a majority of the others and in general was one of the most useful people in Bartlet's team. And Jed just forgets all that because Toby told (or took the blame at least) the public Hutchins had a silly little Space Shuttle? Come on, Jed, who really cares?
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Mar 7, 2013 21:36
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Popo posted:I always felt Bartlet's anger at Toby seemed over the top. Sure, what the guy did was wrong but he also saved social security and was one of the minds behind that tuition dealie. He solo'd at least one SoU and wrote a majority of the others and in general was one of the most useful people in Bartlet's team. And Jed just forgets all that because Toby told (or took the blame at least) the public Hutchins had a silly little Space Shuttle? Come on, Jed, who really cares? I think he was more angry at Toby doing something that forced him to fire him then the actual divulging state secrets - because you can't divulge state secrets and still hold a government job.
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Mar 7, 2013 22:13
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Popo posted:I always felt Bartlet's anger at Toby seemed over the top. Sure, what the guy did was wrong but he also saved social security and was one of the minds behind that tuition dealie. He solo'd at least one SoU and wrote a majority of the others and in general was one of the most useful people in Bartlet's team. And Jed just forgets all that because Toby told (or took the blame at least) the public Hutchins had a silly little Space Shuttle? Come on, Jed, who really cares? Bartlet was angry that Toby took the decision away from him because Toby didn't trust Bartlet to make the right decision.
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Mar 7, 2013 22:17
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Popo posted:I always felt Bartlet's anger at Toby seemed over the top. Sure, what the guy did was wrong but he also saved social security and was one of the minds behind that tuition dealie. He solo'd at least one SoU and wrote a majority of the others and in general was one of the most useful people in Bartlet's team. And Jed just forgets all that because Toby told (or took the blame at least) the public Hutchins had a silly little Space Shuttle? Come on, Jed, who really cares? This is vastly (vastly) understating the seriousness of a major national security breach. No one gets a pinch on the cheek and an "aww, you rascal you!" for divulging classified information to the public, no matter how many speeches they wrote or policy initiatives they got passed. And, if we grant the premise that Toby really was the leaker, he knew all that and did it anyway. His offering his resignation--whether he was the leaker or not--is laughable and almost a slap in the face to Bartlet. The politics of the situation simply don't allow for Toby to quietly resign--and Toby, a political guy through and through, would know that as well as anybody. There's also the broader context of Toby having a history of questioning Bartlet's moral integrity. Finally, there's a sense that Toby is doing this, at least in some small part, for his own personal glory. Bartlet tells him many people will see him as a hero; Schiff, if I recall correctly, kind of plays it as though Toby had never considered that, but Bartlet knows Toby pretty darn well, and as the audience, we've certainly seen him be at times pompous and self-aggrandizing. Toby (or whoever the leaker is) has taken a complex situation and reduced it to a simple answer: if we have the capability to save the astronauts, we ought to do so. Bartlet has to consider other variables, such as the likelihood that revealing the existence of the military shuttle will promote an arms race of orbital weapons platforms, or provoke some kind of aggressive action from some unfriendly nation. We might consider those to e remote possibilities, but if either one of them were to occur, they would result in a much greater loss of life than the few astronauts on the space station. All in all, Toby's trangression was in no way minor, and I believe that Bartlet had every right to be furious with him. You know, assuming it really was Toby that did it.
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Mar 8, 2013 01:09
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What really let me down was how the morality of such a weapon was almost completely brushed over. There could have been an interesting discussion on the militarization of space, and how the existence of a military shuttle could represent the "do as I say, not as I do" attitude of American foreign policy. Instead we get a crappy whodunit subplot. Everyone in the administration is furious over the leak, but apparently less so over the idea that the government sees no problem with the construction of this shuttle in the first place.
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Mar 8, 2013 02:23
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JohnSherman posted:What really let me down was how the morality of such a weapon was almost completely brushed over. There could have been an interesting discussion on the militarization of space, and how the existence of a military shuttle could represent the "do as I say, not as I do" attitude of American foreign policy. Instead we get a crappy whodunit subplot. Everyone in the administration is furious over the leak, but apparently less so over the idea that the government sees no problem with the construction of this shuttle in the first place.
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Mar 10, 2013 11:20
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I was let down a lot by the fact that we never actually get to see anything pertaining to the space shuttle. I think that's an enormous oversight for a visual medium. We got to see it when they assassinated the foreign dignitary by getting him off his plane in the middle of the night, we got to see an agent with a hole in her head when Zoey got kidnapped, and when the hurricane knocks over the tender boat, Bartlet huddles next to a radio in his office counseling its signal officer. So I'll concede that it might have been ridiculous to conjure the special effects for wind and rain, and maybe an action sequence for the SWAT team that murked Zoey's kidnappers would have been outside of the show's scope, but at the best of times, they always found a way to get us in physical contact with the current events happening outside of the West Wing itself. With the space shuttle thing they could have done anything from a begrudging blast-off sequence at a military installation, to a shot of a couple guys in space suits waving at television cameras on a tarmac, to just having some the astronauts show up at the White House to be received as guests. The showrunners never really made the effort to obscure the fact that the whole ordeal was a cheap plot point to gently caress around with Toby for a while, and that's kind of unfortunate.
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Mar 10, 2013 12:15
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West Wing was always really good about tell, not show. I think it's part of the style. The story isn't about what's happening out there, it's about how the characters in here are dealing with it.
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Mar 10, 2013 20:41
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It's also a reflection of the fact that at that level of administration, you rarely see directly the things you're influencing or reacting to. Short of having a situation room type set-up, I suppose.
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Mar 10, 2013 22:40
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I've taken to putting on my coat like Barlet. Partly because I have headphones on and my phone sitting on my desk while I put it on but also in tribute to Martin's greatest role.
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Mar 11, 2013 08:08
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I've been looking through the archives, and I'm wondering - was there a thread for The West Wing while it was airing? Because it was a drat popular show when it was.
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Mar 17, 2013 06:58
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Here's the thread for the series finale: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=1876088
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Mar 18, 2013 02:24
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The SARS Volta posted:Here's the thread for the series finale: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=1876088 Oh how the hive mind's opinion of Studio 60 has fallen.
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Mar 18, 2013 03:06
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Does Greg Brock drop his Zip disk (lol) with the Hoynes article in CJs office on purpose? It looks like it, but...why? Also was Toby banging Rena (Rina?)? I'm pretty sure she and Angela Blake take a trip to Mandyville too.
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Mar 22, 2013 02:46
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myron cope posted:Does Greg Brock drop his Zip disk (lol) with the Hoynes article in CJs office on purpose? It looks like it, but...why?
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Mar 22, 2013 04:06
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Hoops posted:I can't remember exactly how that scene plays out, but I'm pretty it was a personal favour to CJ, but covering himself enough to deny he leaked it if it came out.
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Mar 22, 2013 04:54
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If Greg gives her the story he's given her the story. If she finds a disk, nobody knows how she got that disk. No matter what Greg's gonna know he gave her the story, but it comes down to what he can convince other people of.
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Mar 22, 2013 06:45
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Oh the Lydells. Boy did you school Mandy and CJ.
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Mar 22, 2013 07:17
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In case any of y'all are interested, Mark Oshiro, who runs markreads.net and markwatches.net has started watching The West Wing and posting episode-by-episode reviews.
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Mar 22, 2013 14:04
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BrooklynBruiser posted:In case any of y'all are interested, Mark Oshiro, who runs markreads.net and markwatches.net has started watching The West Wing and posting episode-by-episode reviews. This is nearly the best news I've had all week.  Thanks for posting about it.
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Mar 22, 2013 14:14
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BrooklynBruiser posted:In case any of y'all are interested, Mark Oshiro, who runs markreads.net and markwatches.net has started watching The West Wing and posting episode-by-episode reviews. 
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Mar 22, 2013 17:26
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Josh Lyman posted:Mark's excitement at the pilot got me excited! His energy reminds me of my first time watching the series. If I show a girl the pilot and she doesn't like it, that's a dealbreaker. You should go back through Mark's past archives of shows! Excitement and enthusiasm are his Things, and it owns.
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Mar 23, 2013 00:24
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Well, I've been binging through this series for the last couple of weeks, already up to Season 5. Why are they making Abbey so unlikeable? She seems to criticize the president for god drat near everything, constantly trivializing immensely complex situations and blaming him for everything, acting super entitled and taking everything personally. I realize she's the first lady and all, but man I really can't stand her character right now, it's like they're trying as hard as possible for me to not like her. Does it get better or worse as the series goes on? Edit: Also is it weird that I squealed a little when I saw John Goodman out of fricking nowhere? I loving love John Goodman reversefungi fucked around with this message at 08:32 on Mar 27, 2013 |
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Mar 27, 2013 07:09
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The Dark Wind posted:Well, I've been binging through this series for the last couple of weeks, already up to Season 5. Why are they making Abbey so unlikeable? She seems to criticize the president for god drat near everything, constantly trivializing immensely complex situations and blaming him for everything, acting super entitled and taking everything personally. I realize she's the first lady and all, but man I really can't stand her character right now, it's like they're trying as hard as possible for me to not like her. Does it get better or worse as the series goes on? It gets better, but not because Abbey’s writers get better. It’s just that she gets much less screen time in seasons six and seven.
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Mar 27, 2013 07:19
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In season 5 the writers really had no idea how to generate any conflict so they used the First Lady as a source of DRAMA as often as they could, whether it made any sense or not.
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Mar 27, 2013 14:50
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The Dark Wind posted:Well, I've been binging through this series for the last couple of weeks, already up to Season 5. Why are they making Abbey so unlikeable? She seems to criticize the president for god drat near everything, constantly trivializing immensely complex situations and blaming him for everything, acting super entitled and taking everything personally. I realize she's the first lady and all, but man I really can't stand her character right now, it's like they're trying as hard as possible for me to not like her. Does it get better or worse as the series goes on? I'm pretty sure that was meant to reflect her new perspective after what happened in S4, a general "I am so over this presidency bullshit, I'm done" attitude. I'm assuming you mean her attitude beginning with S5, do you think she was bitchy before then? And re: Goodman, I yelled "yes!" and did a little fist pump myself. The way we only got little glimpses of whomever it was, building up the suspense, and then--there he was! I thought it was brilliant casting.
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Mar 27, 2013 14:52
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They did manage to decently justify the shift in her character, but from Zoe's kidnapping on, they basically turned Abbey into an antagonist. I can see how that character arc could have worked, what with how traumatic the season 4 ending was, but every time she's on screen during season 5, she's criticizing someone. It gets old fast and it's sad to see her refusing to meet anyone halfway, ever. It's a huge shame since she was one of my favourites during the Sorkin years (note: they are all my favourite). I think the easiest way to look at it is to pretend they're different people than were in the show before Sorkin left. The characterisation changes for everyone, mostly for the worse. They aren't bad characters from there on out, but they are different, less charming, less nuanced. Abbey is just the most extreme example. Vinick is my favourite post-Sorkin character, even more than anyone in the main cast, and I think a lot of that came down to Alan Alda. JULIAN ASSANGE fucked around with this message at 22:01 on Mar 27, 2013 |
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Mar 27, 2013 21:58
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Marley Wants More posted:I'm pretty sure that was meant to reflect her new perspective after what happened in S4, a general "I am so over this presidency bullshit, I'm done" attitude. I'm assuming you mean her attitude beginning with S5, do you think she was bitchy before then? When you're bearing the responsibility of hiding a secret capable of upending the the United States Presidency and have been promised that it would only be one term- and your husband announces a reelection bid without consulting you, and then wins said bid... And you know its probably going to kill and or deteriorate his quality of life for the rest of his shortened life- you'd probably be bitchy even after you accepted it.
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Mar 28, 2013 00:26
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TheBigBad posted:When you're bearing the responsibility of hiding a secret capable of upending the the United States Presidency and have been promised that it would only be one term- and your husband announces a reelection bid without consulting you, and then wins said bid... And you know its probably going to kill and or deteriorate his quality of life for the rest of his shortened life- you'd probably be bitchy even after you accepted it. I had forgotten all about his promise to serve only one term! Wow, I need a marathon. There was a time I could quote the whole damned series, chapter and verse. Yeah, you're right.
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Mar 28, 2013 00:44
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TheBigBad posted:When you're bearing the responsibility of hiding a secret capable of upending the the United States Presidency and have been promised that it would only be one term- and your husband announces a reelection bid without consulting you, and then wins said bid... And you know its probably going to kill and or deteriorate his quality of life for the rest of his shortened life- you'd probably be bitchy even after you accepted it. And forfeited your medical license for the duration of the his presidency.
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Mar 29, 2013 03:22
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tomapot posted:And forfeited your medical license for the duration of the his presidency. And then your daughter was kidnapped when she most assuredly would not have been kidnapped if your husband kept his promise.
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Mar 29, 2013 05:27
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No no guys, we need to have blind hatred of Mrs. Bartlett because her reproductive organs are in the inside 
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Mar 29, 2013 05:34
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Conquistador posted:No no guys, we need to have blind hatred of Mrs. Bartlett because her reproductive organs are in the inside  Leo McGarry became a one-dimensional rear end in a top hat out of nowhere for a few episodes in the post-Sorkin era, too. Criticizing bad writing isn't misogyny. Breaking Bad will be back on the air in a few months, save some outrage for that.
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Mar 29, 2013 05:45
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I'm not mad at all, it was a joke. I frankly can't stand Skylar but I honestly like Mrs. Bartlett. So, back atcha, I guess
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Mar 29, 2013 05:50
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Since we seem to be hating on the female characters, did anyone else despise the character of Amy Gardner? Her constant "what the gently caress is going on" look pretty much summed up what I was thinking whenever she showed up onscreen. I understood that she was a strong feminist advocate who bounced around jobs and had an on/off relationship with Josh, but I never understood why they kept bringing this decidedly unmemorable character back.
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Mar 29, 2013 06:17
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I didn't mind Amy, I recall her pulling some shady poo poo though. I've only watched the show through and through once though so, my memory may not be the best.
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Mar 29, 2013 06:21
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