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Necroneocon posted:I use ME as a recent example of lovely RPGs that people crow over as if they were actually RPGs but I can go back to pretty much RPG after DA1 was created if you'd like. This is some serious nostalgic holier-than-thou poo poo right here. There isn't a goonsay or Bobdobs big enough. For older gamers we were a lot younger and our sensibilities were a lot easier to please than they are now that we've  matured a little. The Golden Age of gaming had just as much boring grindfests and poorly written crap that we do these days, you've just taken the outliers and whitewashed away the rest. Calm down.I'll be among the first people to say ME had some poor writing and pacing and narrative issues, but taken as an experience it was done pretty darn well. Games back when you are imaging them were just as imperfect and as much as I really don't care that we lambast Bioware and the like, it's really disingenuous to pretend that almost every game from the past didn't suffer from similar-but-different pacing or writing or characterization or gameplay issues. Talk about min/maxxing or grinding your way to the finish line, gently caress. Clearly RPGs have gone down divergent paths, and while it may be fun to identify similarities between the shifts of convention it's really not ideal to try to compare them or the people who enjoy them. And Mass Effect's poorly done focus on overt physical sexuality and adherence to the male gaze in no way means all of its characters or dialog were terrible or uninteresting. Alpha Protocol, Mass Effect; these aren't steps in the wrong direction. I get your enthusiasm for Torment, I'm enthused as well, but saying that because something doesn't have a text parser (or other 'old school' conventions) it isn't a true rpg that's worth our time doesn't ring true. Drifter fucked around with this message at 18:20 on Mar 23, 2013 |
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Mar 23, 2013 18:17
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What does one life matter? Well whatevs. Text in my game? Feh. No female character like Miranda (or, to make NihilCredo happy) Morrigan's boobs hanging out? No thanks *goes back to Call of Duty*
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Drifter posted:This is some serious nostalgic holier-than-thou poo poo right here. There isn't a goonsay or Bobdobs big enough. For older gamers we were a lot younger and our sensibilities were a lot easier to please than they are now that we've Don't get me wrong. I have hugely fond memories of playing games since I could put an atari joystick in my hands but games have gotten so so much better since the early days. For every great game I remember there were 20 poo poo games that tricked me out of my hard won paperroute money. Now it seems like the majority of games I buy and play are at least enjoyable but you talk to some people and all they remember is the fun they had with the good games back in the day. It's a little sad to me sometimes when I try to go back and play some old game like Dragon Warrior and think to myself how did I put up with this grindy no-story POS back in the day? Sadly you can have the exact same conversation about Music, movies, TV or even freaking sports. Somehow the gold age of whatever entertainment you were into just happened to hit during that person's formative years.
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Mar 23, 2013 19:29
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Probably the main problem with games then versus games now is that games now are focused more on serving broader audiences rather than more specific niches, due in large part to budgets being what they are. Which is different than saying that modern games are all terrible and older games were all great, there are plenty examples that prove the opposite. What Kickstarter is doing, and why I like it so much, is that it's bringing back the idea of tailoring games to serve specific niches. In my case, that would be hardcore RPGs that focus on strategic, party-based combat and great gobs of text. But I'll still play Dragon Age 3 if it's not a steaming pile like DA2 was.
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Mar 23, 2013 19:35
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Darkhold posted:I don't want to get into the middle of this particular argument but people just remember games as so much better than they were. I once was pretty much shouted at on another board years ago because someone posted a topic 'Are games getting worse?' and I was the only one in the thread that believed that they really had gotten so much better just within my lifetime. UIs are better, Graphics are better and with some exceptions most games have a least some story as opposed to the majority having a story that could be written on a postage stamp. It's a fallacy to say either absolute is true, though. There are absolutely worthwhile elements from the past that have been lost and there are many other things that have improved massively since then. Level design is not as big a priority as it was just 10 years ago; you just don't see the huge, complex levels of Thief or DOOM anymore, in any games. There are entire genres from the 80s and 90s that barely exist today and are only just now being revived thanks to things like Kickstarter and digital download services. On the other hand, we've seen far too many mechanical advances to count that make playing games way more convenient than it was back then. Design-wise, we see things in modern games that we wouldn't ever have dreamt of 20 years ago. Point is, it's not a one-way street at all and it's very much a grey area, since general trends in games have changed so much in so little time. The best FPS of the 90s barely resembles the best FPS of the 2000s, and it's perfectly reasonable to prefer one over the other without automatically being a victim of nostalgia - which is a completely nebulous term to begin with, I might add. If I didn't love the poo poo out of many modern games, I wouldn't be posting here right now. That doesn't mean everything ever has empirically improved and we have to discard everything from the past. Hakkesshu fucked around with this message at 20:01 on Mar 23, 2013 |
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Mar 23, 2013 19:48
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Necroneocon posted:I use ME as a recent example of lovely RPGs that people crow over as if they were actually RPGs but I can go back to pretty much RPG after DA1 was created if you'd like. Divinity 2 and Deus Ex Human Revolution are both better than the generic snooze that's DA1 even though they're not quite on par with classic rpgs. Darkhold posted:I don't want to get into the middle of this particular argument but people just remember games as so much better than they were. I once was pretty much shouted at on another board years ago because someone posted a topic 'Are games getting worse?' and I was the only one in the thread that believed that they really had gotten so much better just within my lifetime. UIs are better, Graphics are better and with some exceptions most games have a least some story as opposed to the majority having a story that could be written on a postage stamp. I've played many classic games in the late 2000's (for example Deus Ex, which many people claim I have nostalgia goggles for while I finished it in 2010, Planescape Torment, and Fallout 2), and to not see the downslide in the quality of AAA releases is just weird. UIs are better? Many games nowadays have gigantic bulky round UIs, as opposed to something minimal and elegant. The RTS genre is 90% dead, every FPS with a multiplayer nowadays insist on being an MMO hybrid with infinite grinding to unlock weapons (not to mention that even if it's sci fi it still boils down to the same generic machinegun-sniperrifle-shotgun arsenal as opposed to bothering with any remotely new weapon ideas), and compare the amount of RPGs and AAA RPGs released, and their quality, to the late 90s and early 00s. Yeah, there's plenty of stuff that wouldn't be possible back then, and there are tons of smaller developers making quality games, and not every AAA game is garbage, but to deny that the golden age of gaming was in the late 90s and early 00s is just silly. Xaziel fucked around with this message at 20:02 on Mar 23, 2013 |
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Mar 23, 2013 19:53
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Hakkesshu posted:It's a fallacy to say either absolute is true, though. There are absolutely worthwhile elements from the past that have been lost and there are many other things that have improved massively since then. Level design is not as big a priority as it was just 10 years ago; you just don't see huge, complex levels of Thief or DOOM anymore, in any games. There are entire genres from the 80s and 90s that barely exist today and are only just now being revived thanks to things like Kickstarter. On the other hand, we've seen many mechanical advances that make playing games way more convenient than it was back then. Design-wise, we see things in modern games that we wouldn't ever have dreamt of 20 years ago. There are of course genres that went extinct or have been on life support for ages now. I always did feel bad for people into point-n-click adventure games. That must have sucked for years. The average quality of games (IMO at least) has increased in just about every measurable way for me. I don't think I'll ever have the same joys I had twenty years ago playing Contra or Baldur's Gate but it that just means I'm older and that I remember the exceptions to the rule. I couldn't even name 10 of the mediocre games that sat unplayed in my little game box. Not to say it's exclusively a one way street as you say. Just better on average.
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Mar 23, 2013 20:01
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Hakkesshu posted:Level design is not as big a priority as it was just 10 years ago; you just don't see the huge, complex levels of Thief or DOOM anymore, in any games.  would like a word with you.
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Mar 23, 2013 20:17
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Darkhold posted:Doom? Whenever I tried to play that game back in the day I'd always end up quitting because every level turned into a boring maze where everything looked the same. I'd say most FPS's now adays have vastly better level design. Thief is more memorable to me because it was the exception of the time which is exactly what Drifter was talking about when he mentioned outliers. I'd argue that Dishonored is the modern day equivalent to Thief. DOOM is one of the most revered games of all time and still has an active community to this day. There are things that appeal to me about that game that I generally do not see in modern games, even ones from the same lineage like Serious Sam. You can quantify these things and point to the fact that level design has changed in some pretty drastic ways; more specifically that modern games are based in facsimiles of real places rather than abstract mazes, as you call them. If you enjoy that sort of thing, it's perfectly reasonable to feel dismayed that very, very few modern games cater to that specific taste. That doesn't mean I'm being biased, since I can point to dozens of games from that time whose level designs were loving awful by comparison, including DOOM 2. It's funny that you mention Dishonored, since that game is absolutely also an outlier in terms of the type of game it is and how complex its levels are. Darkhold posted:Not to say it's exclusively a one way street as you say. Just better on average. That's debatable and most likely unquantifiable. You might have a better chance of going into a store and picking up a game you'll definitely like today, but there are so many more games being made and the barrier to entry for game development is so much higher that it's only natural that the median quality would also be higher in some spaces. I can flip it around and say that you only have to look at 90% of the iOS app store to find the worst, most low-effort pieces of shovelware you'll ever see in your life. BenRGamer posted:
You're right, of course. I probably should have said shooters, but then I thought of STALKER and was owned by my own mind. Hakkesshu fucked around with this message at 20:30 on Mar 23, 2013 |
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Mar 23, 2013 20:18
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Hakkesshu posted:DOOM is one of the most revered games of all time and still has an active community to this day. There are things that appeal to me about that game that I generally do not see in modern games, even ones from the same lineage like Serious Sam. You can quantify these things and point to the fact that level design has changed in some pretty drastic ways; more specifically that games are based in facsimiles of real places rather than abstract mazes, as you call them. If you enjoy that sort of thing, it's perfectly reasonable to feel dismayed that very, very few modern games cater to that specific taste. That doesn't mean I'm being biased, since I can point to dozens of games from that time whose level design was loving awful by comparison, including DOOM 2. I find it silly to talk about level designing with someone saying "Whenever I tried to play that game back in the day I'd always end up quitting because every level turned into a boring maze where everything looked the same." about Doom. About Serious Sam, it's amusing when people claim that it's the Doom/Quake of today even though it really has little to do with those aside from also being fairly old school. It kind of does its own thing where most levels are giant arenas and to win you have to dance around with a handful of different enemies prioritizing targets and managing your ammo. It was very refreshing to see a game like SS3 come out recently.
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Mar 23, 2013 20:23
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The only change I've noticed (other than the graphical increases and the proliferation of specific tropes like quicktimes, reviving allies, and blood spattered screens) is that AAA games are getting more macho, gritty, and samey. Like a comic book. But then I thought about it and realized American-developed games have always been like that, it's just that more and more big-name games have been western. As for Mass Effect, I didn't play the second 2 games because of bad word of mouth, but the first one had excellent writing. My problem with it was more in the visuals and how scenes were presented.
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Mar 23, 2013 20:48
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Hakkesshu posted:DOOM is one of the most revered games of all time and still has an active community to this day. There are things that appeal to me about that game that I generally do not see in modern games, even ones from the same lineage like Serious Sam. You can quantify these things and point to the fact that level design has changed in some pretty drastic ways; more specifically that modern games are based in facsimiles of real places rather than abstract mazes, as you call them. If you enjoy that sort of thing, it's perfectly reasonable to feel dismayed that very, very few modern games cater to that specific taste. That doesn't mean I'm being biased, since I can point to dozens of games from that time whose level designs were loving awful by comparison, including DOOM 2. quote:It's funny that you mention Dishonored, since that game is absolutely also an outlier in terms of the type of game it is and how complex its levels are. quote:That's debatable and most likely unquantifiable. You might have a better chance of going into a store and picking up a game you'll definitely like today, but there are so many more games being made and the barrier to entry for game development is so much higher that it's only natural that the median quality would also be higher in some spaces. I can flip it around and say that you only have to look at 90% of the iOS app store to find the worst, most low-effort pieces of shovelware you'll ever see in your life. Jewel Repetition posted:As for Mass Effect, I didn't play the second 2 games because of bad word of mouth, but the first one had excellent writing. My problem with it was more in the visuals and how scenes were presented. Edit: on re-reading your post I guess how things were presented took a definite nose dive so if that was your issue with the first game that did get worse and maybe not a good buy for you.
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Mar 23, 2013 21:13
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Jewel Repetition posted:As for Mass Effect, I didn't play the second 2 games because of bad word of mouth, but the first one had excellent writing. My problem with it was more in the visuals and how scenes were presented. I actually think ME2 is the best overall entry in the series: -Better combat than ME1 -Better ending than ME3 -Less RPG elements than ME1, but no inventory management hassles -Worse soundtrack than ME1, but still really good -Vignette stories were more interesting to me than the all-out war plot of ME3 -Better graphics than ME1 -Better Illusive Man usage than ME3 The only real knock on ME2 is that it streamline the RPG elements and focused more on cover-shooting action. Still a really great game, though.
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Mar 23, 2013 21:13
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Yeah, ME2 was a big improvement for me all-around (ME3 was where things got a little too wonky outside of co-op), so I'd be interested to hear how things were presented worse in it than in ME1. For that matter, I didn't notice bad presentation of scenes in the first game either, so enlightenment would be much appreciated.
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Mar 23, 2013 21:27
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This thread's back on ME again? 
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Mar 23, 2013 21:35
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^^^ we'd be all over you if we could, Brother None.  Jewel Repetition posted:The only change I've noticed (other than the graphical increases and the proliferation of specific tropes like quicktimes, reviving allies, and blood spattered screens) is that AAA games are getting more macho, gritty, and samey. Like a comic book. I may be very wrong but I think there is a lot of external characterization in games because they're being sold as spectacles. As well as also writing to and reinforcing standard stereotypes because they're the least effortful to write. I think that most people, when they think of a game as a 'spectacle', tend to equate it to the way a movie becomes a spectacle. You know the character is a badass because you've just shown him to have 5-o'clock shadow and a rough, smoker's voice and a grumpy, get-the-gently caress-away-from-me dialog bark. If there's no dramatic music cue it's not important. It goes back to the mentality of treating games like an uninteractive medium, like a movie or a comic. People have a whole Show-Don't-Tell idea about this thing, but the best games have an Act-Don't-Show/Tell. Empathy versus Sympathy, I guess. It's just really bad when it's done poorly, or written poorly. Drifter fucked around with this message at 21:39 on Mar 23, 2013 |
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Mar 23, 2013 21:37
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Android Blues posted:I guess I should go back to Call of Duty. Christ, but this is an awful post. Just because you have low self esteem you don't have to defend yourself so much and read into everything. You address nothing in the post about recent RPG's poor writing and hyper-sexualism. So i'm just going to say your post was pretty bad and super defensive. This isn't about being holier-than-thou, so I don't know why people need to be defensive when subordinate clause gasp, people don't like your favorite game series. That's nerd tribalism. You know a game that had great writing and was a recent RPG? Fallout: New Vegas. You all really don't need to get all NMA in a discussion where people actually want great writing, great characters and a great plot (I'll give you one thing, Garrus is memorable, so was Thane.) This whole thing originated from goons going "One does one life matter? feh" as if it was the end all be all of the game. That's just dumb. And for the person who said DA1 was a snoozefest, I guess you really didn't like BG1 or 2, because to say of all games, Alpha Protocol was better is  , but hey, whatever floats your boat.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1xHSeZqLpY
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Mar 23, 2013 22:02
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Necroneocon posted:Just because you have low self esteem you don't have to defend yourself so much and read into everything. You address nothing in the post about recent RPG's poor writing and hyper-sexualism. So i'm just going to say your post was pretty bad and super defensive. To quote myself, "obviously it's not the only thing that's the game going to have and be about, and obviously I'm looking forward to the game myself (as I said I pledged), but I'm criticizing the simplicity of the driving question and how the answer is really obvious up ahead unlike that of PST.". No one was acting like it's the only thing that's going to be in the game. Also about DA1, how is that game anything but generic? "An ancient evil awakens", "Darkspawn", dragons. And you're complaining about RPGs being overly sexualized while praising dragon age? Xaziel fucked around with this message at 22:16 on Mar 23, 2013 |
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Mar 23, 2013 22:10
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Shut up you nancy loving idiots.
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Mar 23, 2013 22:20
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Alpha Protocol is pretty great but it would have benefited from being a traditional shooter instead of going the RPG route like Deus Ex. Using that one SIE scene is a stupid example. It's like saying Dragon Age was dumb then linking the myriad of poorly animated sex scenes in that game. But that's the thing with niche games, you either love them or you hate them. Torment having the reactive storytelling Alpha Protocol has would make it something really special.
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Mar 23, 2013 22:31
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Necroneocon posted:For older gamers, RPGs were about the story, experience and the unique and memorable characters. What RPGs have been turding out these past years have avoided that. Except for Queequeg Basically I'm saying that you're a child if you think that was what "older gamers" took away from older games, because I strongly doubt you played any "older" games. coyo7e fucked around with this message at 23:17 on Mar 23, 2013 |
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Mar 23, 2013 23:14
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Yeah very few rpgs are about "story, experience and the unique and memorable characters" and the ME games sure as hell qualify for that small pool. I mean it's cool if you don't like them but that's no true scotsman poo poo
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Mar 23, 2013 23:28
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coyo7e posted:I played the poo poo out of the SSI gold box D&D games, Bard's Tale, Wizardries, etc, and I cannot recall the name of anybody in my parties, or in any of the games' NPC cast. He's clearly referring to late 90s/early 00s RPG games.
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Mar 23, 2013 23:34
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Xaziel posted:He's clearly referring to late 90s/early 00s RPG games.
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Mar 23, 2013 23:46
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coyo7e posted:Ahh, the vaunted 25 year-old "older gamer" crowd..? Young medium.
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Mar 23, 2013 23:49
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Necroneocon posted:You address nothing in the post about recent RPG's poor writing and hyper-sexualism. I just find it funny that people are complaining about the hypersexualisation of characters in modern games in this thread when Planescape had Annah. Have you seen her character art? Really? Had she been rendered with today's graphics she'd put almost any female not named Kaine to shame for the ridiculous level of sexualisation in her outfit. Games have always had questionable attitudes with regards to the depictions of women relative to men, I don't think it's got any worse. They don't necessarily have to get rid of it though, just be more equal in portrayals. You could deobjectify the women or, rather than deobjectifying the women, objectify the men as well as the women. That'd be fine too. Have massive breasted sorceresses fighting half-naked greased-up warriors with the kind of chiselled abs that would make Arnie weep. Essentially, I just want a good Conan the Barbarian game. EDIT: I will admit that Bioware focus on sex itself to an unhealthy degree, but I don't buy that that's a general trend in RPGs outside of that company. CottonWolf fucked around with this message at 23:58 on Mar 23, 2013 |
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Mar 23, 2013 23:55
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It wasn't just Annah, pretty much every female character in PS:T except the old ladies had giant titties and revealing outfits.
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Mar 24, 2013 00:00
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CottonWolf posted:I just find it funny that people are complaining about the hypersexualisation of characters in modern games in this thread when Planescape had Annah. Have you seen her character art? Really? Had she been rendered with today's graphics she'd put almost any female not named Kaine to shame for the ridiculous level of sexualisation in her outfit. Games have always had questionable attitudes with regards to the depictions of women relative to men, I don't think it's got any worse. What inequality are you talking about my friend? Have you see what the nameless one is wearing (not to mention you're not allowed to dress him up!)?
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Mar 24, 2013 00:01
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Xaziel posted:What inequality are you talking about my friend? Have you see what the nameless one is wearing (not to mention you're not allowed to dress him up!)? Well, to be fair, The Nameless One is the ugliest motherfucker ever.
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Mar 24, 2013 00:04
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Darkhold posted:Doom? ... It wasn't until Half Life that I actually enjoyed a shooter FPS. CottonWolf posted:Have massive breasted sorceresses fighting half-naked greased-up warriors with the kind of chiselled abs that would make Arnie weep. 
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Mar 24, 2013 00:05
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Xaziel posted:What inequality are you talking about my friend? Have you see what the nameless one is wearing (not to mention you're not allowed to dress him up!)? Touche. He's not exactly designed to be sexually attractive though. Unless it's just that I can't appreciate good scar tissue. FRINGE posted:Oh Dragon Wars... Exactly that!
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Mar 24, 2013 00:05
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CottonWolf posted:Touche. He's not exactly designed to be sexually attractive though. Unless it's just that I can't appreciate good scar tissue. But he's so mysterious and experienced... funky not a junkie posted:Well, to be fair, The Nameless One is the ugliest motherfucker ever. If so then so is annah. 
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Mar 24, 2013 00:08
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funky not a junkie posted:It wasn't just Annah, pretty much every female character in PS:T except the old ladies had giant titties and revealing outfits.  Low class female citizen, upper, and annah Fall from Grace was decent though 
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Mar 24, 2013 00:08
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Xaziel posted:If so then so is annah. No way man, Annah is hoooooooootttttttttttttttttt  
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Mar 24, 2013 00:14
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coyo7e posted:I played the poo poo out of the SSI gold box D&D games, Bard's Tale, Wizardries, etc, and I cannot recall the name of anybody in my parties, or in any of the games' NPC cast. She and yes I have. Thanks. Female gamer doesn't like oversexualized things. News at 11 where we discover female gamers are older than you think! Whoa!
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Mar 24, 2013 00:14
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funky not a junkie posted:No way man, Annah is hoooooooootttttttttttttttttt So is TNO.  Necroneocon posted:She and yes I have. Thanks. Female gamer doesn't like oversexualized things. News at 11 where we discover female gamers are older than you think! Whoa! I like how you act as if your gender allows you to speak for your entire gender.
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Mar 24, 2013 00:16
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coyo7e posted:Except for Queequeg  edit: Scifi games need more educational/awareness things thrown in like that. Even though DX2 was not well loved, that little mini story I found entertaining for the time it was released. DX4 should take on the tentacle monster: 
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Mar 24, 2013 00:18
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 the female characters in Planescape Torment make Mass Effect 3 look like GRAW 2. No PST fan is ever allowed to talk smack about Bioware's female character design ever again.
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Mar 24, 2013 00:24
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2house2fly posted:
That picture, so funny what companies do for the sake of appealing to feminist rhetoric. Because we all know that females make up 50% of the armed forces, and if it's not 50/50 then it's sexist. Also it's not simply about how the characters look, it's about how they act as well. And regardless, making the main criticism of modern RPGs (or modern Bioware RPGs) sexuality is completely missing the point of what makes them inferior to RPGs of olde. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Mar 24, 2013 00:27
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2house2fly posted:
edit: somehow i accidentally deleted like half my post. wooops
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Mar 24, 2013 00:28
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Xaziel posted:That picture, so funny what companies do for the sake of appealing to feminist rhetoric. Because we all know that females make up 50% of the armed forces, and if it's not 50/50 then it's sexist. It's showing that there's female versions of each class.
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Mar 24, 2013 00:29
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