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Atican posted:I have mentors who, when I've asked their advice about public policy schools, they smugly respond "go to law school." That's what's making me question everything. I do think the analytical training law school gives you would be really valuable and I do find law interesting. What I probably lack is the motivation (and psychological fortitude) to compete in that environment. If the main reason you're considering law school is that a few dudes - who probably have no idea what the legal market or the state of legal education are like - got smug about the idea of getting a masters, that doesn't seem like enough to me. A masters will definitely be cheaper and quicker, as well as probably easier, less stressful, and more interesting. I'll buy that a masters gives you a leg up in government careers, but I'm not convinced that a JD would have enough advantages (if any) over a masters to justify how much more of a pain in the rear end it would be.
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Mar 23, 2013 21:31
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Atican posted:I do think the analytical training law school gives you would be really valuable
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Mar 23, 2013 21:38
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Bold Robot posted:If the main reason you're considering law school is that a few dudes - who probably have no idea what the legal market or the state of legal education are like - got smug about the idea of getting a masters, that doesn't seem like enough to me. A masters will definitely be cheaper and quicker, as well as probably easier, less stressful, and more interesting. I'll buy that a masters gives you a leg up in government careers, but I'm not convinced that a JD would have enough advantages (if any) over a masters to justify how much more of a pain in the rear end it would be. Thanks, that was my logic to begin with. Why not take the path of least resistance, especially if it's cheaper? And to preempt other comments, I know there are paths of even less resistance that I'm now (and should have been) considering. -- Anyway, I get it now, I keep responding only because I value the input, but I'm for sure taking that long walk now.
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Mar 23, 2013 21:43
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None of the people posting in this thread are actually lawyers, by the way.
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Mar 23, 2013 21:50
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tau posted:None of the people posting in this thread are actually lawyers, by the way. Well, I do keep being told I'm not a real lawyer.
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Mar 23, 2013 21:58
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Bold Robot posted:If the main reason you're considering law school is that a few dudes - who probably have no idea what the legal market or the state of legal education are like - got smug about the idea of getting a masters, that doesn't seem like enough to me. A masters will definitely be cheaper and quicker, as well as probably easier, less stressful, and more interesting. I'll buy that a masters gives you a leg up in government careers, but I'm not convinced that a JD would have enough advantages (if any) over a masters to justify how much more of a pain in the rear end it would be. Naaaah, esoteric/niche master's degrees are even worse than JDs right now (because a good chunk of them are byproducts that PhD students get for showing up and guess what's happening to the PhD market (hint: it makes law students look smart for going to law school)). I don't know anything about the specific Columbia program but looking at alumni lists in 2013 is going to be even more misleading than looking at, say, Fordham's BIGLAW placement statistics. MoFauxHawk posted:Yeah actually, looking at numbers again, you're right about the first thing. He has a somewhat realistic shot now. The second thing you're saying is wrong though. People say things like that in this thread a lot, but I disagree. For some people, low 170s is going to be their max. He may already be a person who had to prep and prep to break out of the 160s. I take that back and agree it's not 'easy'. There are also diminishing returns that make it not worth it for a lot of people to bother (like, if you have a 3.2/170 split, a 175 is not gonna make all that much difference). For a 3.9/international panda type with several equally unappealing alternatives other than Yale, I'd say he can sit in an apartment and cram for six months.
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Mar 23, 2013 22:45
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I have a job and I like it
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Mar 23, 2013 23:19
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Phil Moscowitz posted:I have a job and I like it Me too. I'd say go for it, you are clearly making a sound decision backed up by sound reasoning. It's like you don't even need the stellar argumentative and philosophical training that the glorious institution of law school provides.
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Mar 24, 2013 01:58
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Atican posted:I do think the analytical training law school gives you would be really valuable and I do find law interesting. AW HELL NAW Dude. Duuuude. Law school provides loving zero analytical training. The whole "think like a lawyer" thing is bullshit designed to make us feel better about mortgaging our lives. You do not come out of law school with a sharpened mind, you come out of it beaten down and defeated, ready to surrender to whatever will pay your student loans and allow you to eat. Take whatever you find "interesting" about the law, put duct tape over it's mouth and a trashbag over it's head. Hit it in the head with a hammer several times and bury it in a shallow grave. That's law school. It's not neat or behind the scenes. "Finding the law interesting" is like fingernails on a chalkboard. I've used this example in this thread before, and I think it bears out: Let's say I love boats. Holy poo poo everything about boats is great. So I go to work on a boat. What I learn about my actual job on the boat has loving zero to do with boats. My daily work is not boating, it's a job that sucks and actually makes me hate whatever it is I used to love about boats. All I want to do when I'm off work is to be as far away from boats as humanly possible. But the only thing I'm trained to do is to work on a god damned boat, so I'm chained to it for life. Do not go to law school under any circumstances. That's specific advice for you, tailored for your exact situation. You absolutely should not go. Money or no money. I loving guarantee you that if you go you will not end up in the FSO. Like if we could see the future of alternative universes and bet on the outcomes, I would literally bet my house* on that outcome. (* it's actually an easy bet to make, since very obviously my house has no equity and you'd be doing me a favor by winning. But the point stands: do not go to law school) woozle wuzzle fucked around with this message at 03:56 on Mar 24, 2013 |
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Mar 24, 2013 03:53
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Baruch Obamawitz posted:I'm content but I'd like to make more money eventually is pretty the only reason I'm looking to leave (that and failing FSA due to idiot reviewers, hello union grievance!), but it's definitely not a desperate search. Hah weak, they cherry picked the wrong cases. Do you have to start the whole cycle over?
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Mar 24, 2013 04:13
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woozle wuzzle posted:Dude. Duuuude. Law school provides loving zero analytical training. The whole "think like a lawyer" thing is bullshit designed to make us feel better about mortgaging our lives. You do not come out of law school with a sharpened mind, you come out of it beaten down and defeated, ready to surrender to whatever will pay your student loans and allow you to eat. Yes. This. I, too, once hoped that law school would allow me to think more clearly and give me some phenomenal analytical ability. But it didn't. Not by a longshot. 'Beaten down, defeated, and ready to surrender' is one of the most accurate characterizations I have heard of what law school does to people by the middle of their 2L year. Would I go to law school knowing what I know now? Yes, probably, but I knew I wanted to be a lawyer. And that's what I got: an admission ticket to the bar exam and a job as a lawyer when I graduate. You'll get nothing else. If you don't definitely want to be a lawyer, don't go to law school. Period.
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Mar 24, 2013 04:34
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Colorblind Pilot posted:Yes. This. I, too, once hoped that law school would allow me to think more clearly and give me some phenomenal analytical ability. But it didn't. Not by a longshot. Even if you want to be a lawyer, on account of the no jobs thing. There is a part of me that hopes I failed the Feb bar exam as an excuse to 
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Mar 24, 2013 05:15
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I met a woman at a bar last night who is in her first semester at a T4 getting C's even though she has been an A student her whole life. She's understandably worried she is going to lose her conditional scholarship. Why does she want to go to law school? Because she wants to open her own adoption agency and heard she could cut out a lot of the red tape if she was a lawyer.
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Mar 24, 2013 05:16
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Defleshed posted:JAG stuff nm posted:Well, I do keep being told I'm not a real lawyer.
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Mar 24, 2013 05:27
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Hey I liked this thread when we were talking about and making fun of my country's high court. http://www.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/sinodisp/au/cases/cth/HCA/1979/48.html?stem=0&synonyms=0&query=Kangaroo AustralianLaw.txt edit: Actually, the funniest contract law case I came across was about the sale of inflatable plastic banana pool toys.
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Mar 24, 2013 08:19
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Atican posted:That's encouraging. I didn't prep too much and my score pretty much matched my practice exams, but my anxiety level was low because I took it just to test the waters. I had also come from an advanced logic background (I originally wanted to get a philosophy PhD) so it all came pretty naturally. I would actually be afraid to take it again now that the stakes seem higher. If you want to get into the FS then just get a cheap masters degree from a public university. You might also want to consider applying to USCIS asylum officer or refugee corps jobs to supplement your NGO experience. Joining the peace corps also gives you a small window to claim preference eligibility when you apply to fed gov jobs so keep that in mind as well.
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Mar 24, 2013 14:57
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Atican posted:Thanks, that was my logic to begin with. Why not take the path of least resistance, especially if it's cheaper? Ok, here's the deal: you need to figure out what you want to do with your life in the event the FS doesn't pan out for you. None of your proposed courses of action have any real bearing on getting into the Foreign Service, so don't worry about that. Would you like to be a lawyer for the rest of your life? If yes, then go to law school and roll the dice. If you're just looking for some graduate degree that really isn't necessary anyway for the fields you've mentioned so far, then at least find something in which you'll be interested, better yet something that is employable if government work isn't an option. Frankly, relevant work experience is always more impressive than any graduate education. And what others have said is correct: you don't have a ton of JDs or other advanced degrees in government or the FS because employers are looking for them, it's because lots of people took a multi-year, very expensive detour to get to somewhere requiring none of it. Politics, in particular, is one place where education is irrelevant. The FS is pretty close behind. An example: if an FSO decides to go to night school to earn an advanced degree on his own dime, even if the degree is directly applicable to his job, the degree can't even be mentioned in the FSO's annual evaluation, which is all that determines promotions. That is how little the State Department cares about your educational background. You would be far better off developing decent proficiency in Arabic or Mandarin, either of which basically guarantees a job offer if the minimum requirements are met first.
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Mar 24, 2013 15:58
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Colorblind Pilot posted:Would I go to law school knowing what I know now? Yes, probably, but I knew I wanted to be a lawyer. And that's what I got: an admission ticket to the bar exam and a job as a lawyer when I graduate. You'll get nothing else. I'm in the exact same place. I'm happy with my choice and happy in my job. But I'm loving weird, and I knew what I wanted when applying. I knew that if I was forced to be a DUI lawyer in bumfuck Iowa, that I'd be OK. But for people with a ~dream~ of getting into the FSO or UN or whatever, it's not for them. I like the JAG write-up. And if somebody makes it, JAG is a good option because at least there's a living wage, loan assistance, and 10 year forgiveness. But FSO... Dear God. There's no way. As was said, the reason so many FSO's are lawyers are because they couldn't get a job doing something else. But they are broke as fuuuuuuuuuuck without the endgame of JAG.
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Mar 24, 2013 16:22
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wacko_- posted:Hah weak, they cherry picked the wrong cases. Do you have to start the whole cycle over? Yeah. 6 biweeks to go or so before I can try again, then another 13. Unless POPA yells at my TC director hard enough.
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Mar 24, 2013 16:30
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Enigma posted:Thanks. It's definitely reassuring that it's not impossible to leave the USPTO. Again, I really appreciate all the help. I'll keep you all posted on how it goes. I plan to get resumes out as soon as possible. I may be posting soon asking for areas in/near DC to look for housing, too. Frankly any of the apartment buildings right next to the USPTO are probably a good bet for being new to the area. Easy commute to work, plenty of poo poo to do in Alexandria, and rent is "cheap" (by DC standards)
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Mar 24, 2013 16:31
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woozle wuzzle posted:
Most of the recovering attorneys I know in the Foreign Service were successful by the standards of this thread: biglaw, large prosecutors office, etc. They made the job change because the FS life is so much better, and that is before factoring in the chance to see the world. Under IBR, State Department employees have the same time commitment as JAGs (since you don't actually have to be doing legal work for those ten years).
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Mar 24, 2013 16:40
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Enigma posted:Thanks. It's definitely reassuring that it's not impossible to leave the USPTO. Again, I really appreciate all the help. I'll keep you all posted on how it goes. I plan to get resumes out as soon as possible. I may be posting soon asking for areas in/near DC to look for housing, too. To expand on what BO said, my experience living at Carlyle Mill was good, despite all the reviews for it online being terrible.
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Mar 24, 2013 16:49
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Feces Starship posted:I went to Columbia Law with a scholarship that paid 1/3 of my total cost of attendance over three years. I went to a public undergrad and left with less than 15K of debt. I make a six figure salary in an area with extremely low cost of living at a job I like. I have a wonderful family and great friends and every. single. day. I regret going to law school simply because of the crushing debt I took on. I pay 2300K a month and will be doing this for 10 years. Nothing is worth that.  You pay 2,300,000 a month?  Holy poo poo law school costs are out of control! 
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Mar 25, 2013 01:09
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I find the law interesting. Granted: A) I didn't know what that meant before going into law school. B) I'm pretty sure at least 50% of being a lawyer isn't dealing with The Law. Currently trying to finagle my career trajectory to correct that.
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Mar 25, 2013 02:03
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Green Crayons posted:I find the law interesting. This is why I love my job. I get to read cases and do research on areas I'm interested in, but I don't have to deal with clients, billing, courts, other attorneys, etc. It's actually pretty fortunate because I never really wanted to be an attorney, and if I knew then what I know now I would never have gone to law school. But I bought into the idea that you can do anything with a law degree. I don't know what I'd have done if I hadn't been able to get out of practicing when I did because I was miserable, and my debt would have kept me from doing much else.
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Mar 25, 2013 02:59
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Penguins Like Pies posted:I passed my province's bar course! I was deemed just ethical enough to be a competent lawyer. Serves me right for practicing sleazy criminal defence law. Congrats! Have you decided what you're doing when you get called?
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Mar 25, 2013 03:44
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quepasa18 posted:This is why I love my job. I get to read cases and do research on areas I'm interested in, but I don't have to deal with clients, billing, courts, other attorneys, etc. It's actually pretty fortunate because I never really wanted to be an attorney, and if I knew then what I know now I would never have gone to law school. But I bought into the idea that you can do anything with a law degree. I don't know what I'd have done if I hadn't been able to get out of practicing when I did because I was miserable, and my debt would have kept me from doing much else. Out of curiosity, how many States have an appellate unit for both the PDs and the DAs that focus solely on the criminal aspect of research and highly technical writing? Mine has a hybrid system for the DAs, but a specifically dedicated PD appellate unit that is pretty creackin'. Edit: I mean, 99% of the day to day work is tench warfare, of course, but there are at least some people who dedicate their lives to sitting at a desk staring at westlaw. BigHead fucked around with this message at 11:37 on Mar 25, 2013 |
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Mar 25, 2013 11:21
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BigHead posted:Out of curiosity, how many States have an appellate unit for both the PDs and the DAs that focus solely on the criminal aspect of research and highly technical writing? Mine has a hybrid system for the DAs, but a specifically dedicated PD appellate unit that is pretty creackin'. 99% of criminal appellate work for the prosecution that isn't based on some theory of ineffective assistance of counsel is handled by the state Attorney General's Office, which has a dedicated Criminal Appeals unit. (Florida)
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Mar 25, 2013 11:59
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BigHead posted:Out of curiosity, how many States have an appellate unit for both the PDs and the DAs that focus solely on the criminal aspect of research and highly technical writing? Mine has a hybrid system for the DAs, but a specifically dedicated PD appellate unit that is pretty creackin'. For criminal law, the prosecution seems like the only "firm" large enough to be able to dedicate specific people to appellate work.
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Mar 25, 2013 12:58
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Michigan has a dedicated appellate unit for public defense (State Appellate Defender Office) that handles approximately 25% of indigent criminal appeals. The other 75% are handled by appointment at the county level. In order to be eligible for appointment you have to take the training course that they haven't offered since something like 2005 (because the state can't be bothered to pay money for something frivolous like fair trials). We have no dedicated public defense unit funded by the state. A handful of counties have them, but on the whole, it's appointment by the local judge. And to really terrify you biglaw types, the local court pays $60/hour for felony work, and the judge personally reviews the bills and strikes out anything he thinks is "too much." edit: In fairness to that judge, he is the finest jurist I have ever known and a superb human being in general. The attorneys who had their bills redlined were the ones who submitted a low number of bills for relatively high dollar amounts. Those who submitted many smaller bills invariably had them approved. Alaemon fucked around with this message at 16:11 on Mar 25, 2013 |
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Mar 25, 2013 15:52
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BigHead posted:Out of curiosity, how many States have an appellate unit for both the PDs and the DAs that focus solely on the criminal aspect of research and highly technical writing? Mine has a hybrid system for the DAs, but a specifically dedicated PD appellate unit that is pretty creackin'. Oklahoma's two largest counties have PD offices, each with their own specifically dedicated appellate attorneys. An office's appellate folks handle that office's appeals. All the other counties are served by a statewide Indigent defense system. Most of the trial level work is contract attorneys, except for murder and death cases. The ststem has its own dedicated appellate division. They handle all the indigent appeals, including all the appeals from people who had private attorneys for trial but can't afford one for their appeal (including cases from the two large counties) Local DAs handle their own appeals for juveniles certified as adults, state appeals, and non-capital post conviction relief The State AG's office has its own criminal appeals attorneys, who handle all the other criminal appeals in the state. joat mon fucked around with this message at 16:15 on Mar 25, 2013 |
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Mar 25, 2013 15:58
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ryan8723 posted:
See the tragedy of people like this is they're the people who have no right to complain. Yeah I feel really loving bad that you have a six figure job, but you have to pay back your tuition!!! Man you might almost be upper middle class, instead of just upper class! Poor loving baby. The problem of law school is that not everyone gets those jobs, but everyone is told they can and/or will get those jobs. The problem is not that people who get those jobs have to pay back their loans. I have no desire for biglaw and didn't even do OCI but I have very little sympathy for the debt loads of those who do.
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Mar 25, 2013 19:03
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Direwolf posted:See the tragedy of people like this is they're the people who have no right to complain. Yeah I feel really loving bad that you have a six figure job, but you have to pay back your tuition!!! . . . I have no desire for biglaw and didn't even do OCI but I have very little sympathy for the debt loads of those who do. Out of curiosity, are you paying for law school yourself? If so, are you taking out loans to cover your tuition? If the answer to both questions is yes, why aren't you sympathetic (or at least empathetic) toward someone who is doing what they need to do to pay off their loans? Ersatz fucked around with this message at 20:11 on Mar 25, 2013 |
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Mar 25, 2013 19:35
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joat mon posted:Oklahoma's two largest counties have PD offices, each with their own specifically dedicated appellate attorneys. An office's appellate folks handle that office's appeals.
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Mar 25, 2013 20:25
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Really going to work on this paper now. Sad to see the "Looking forward to the first draft!" comment on my outline.
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Mar 25, 2013 20:57
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TenementFunster posted:Are you involved in Oklahoma PD work? I worked PD/civil rights cases in ED and ND Okla in various capacities during law school. I heard good things about the OIDS death penalty division from the federal defenders OIDS capital has a lot of very sharp folks. What did Barry have to say about the appellate folks in his old office?  When did you graduate?
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Mar 25, 2013 21:31
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joat mon posted:What did Barry have to say about the appellate folks in his old office? I was out in 2011
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Mar 25, 2013 21:44
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Baruch Obamawitz posted:Frankly any of the apartment buildings right next to the USPTO are probably a good bet for being new to the area. Easy commute to work, plenty of poo poo to do in Alexandria, and rent is "cheap" (by DC standards) Some more anecdotal evidence: I can afford an apartment literally a block from campus on a GS-7 salary, a grade below where you'll start. I don't pay for parking/expenses associated with a car, however.
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Mar 25, 2013 23:03
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It's 5 PM the day before mediation. Guess what I don't have. Oh yeah, my loving discovery responses.
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Mar 25, 2013 23:17
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CaptainScraps posted:It's 5 PM the day before mediation. Guess what I don't have. You should probably take their asses to court.
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Mar 25, 2013 23:21
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