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I always remember Doom 2's map design as being a little too abstract. Like, it's cool they experimented with weird ideas (big "open world" levels in 1994), but they were just so hosed up and weird that it was hard to wrap my head around what any of it was supposed to be. They also tended to be gimmicky. The reason I always hated the city levels was because every loving building looked the same and it wasn't any help looking at the map because every one was an identical square. To this day, I get lost when playing those levels if I don't just skip past them immediately. They just don't strike me as well designed. They're also loving ugly oh my god whoever made that level that was all that loving terrible red brick texture ugh. I think they didn't put enough thought into making Doom 2's texture set unique enough compared to Doom 1. Like each episode seemed to have a specific style of textures that set them apart but Doom 2 seemed to have just Doom 1's textures and then a couple extra ones that were so ugly. One thing I can say about Sandy Peterson is his level design skills got better by Quake. He was still nowhere in the league of John Romero but he got better. Also the added monsters were great (but not the chaingunners, gently caress the chaingunners).
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Mar 26, 2013 01:27
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Fergus Mac Roich posted:Whenever someone writes Super Shotgun it should have the sound effect of it firing. It already kind of sounds like it, to me. Even to this day, I can't stop hearing the SUP in Super as the SOOMMP sound effect of firing that lovely coachgun.
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Mar 26, 2013 01:30
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How is it that nobody has topped that thing? We have had so many years of iteration on the FPS formula, and I think in video games as a whole there has been a ton of improvement on how games control, and how they *feel* to play, but somehow nobody has come up with a better shotgun.
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Mar 26, 2013 01:32
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FirstPersonShitter posts are fun to read but is just his opinion (respectable like any other). I personally disagree with him in a lot of points regarding Blood and Doom 2. I don't consider Blood the best early FPS (bullshit enemy placement punishing players not knowing the exact position of everyone of them for example) and Doom 2 does a lot of things right like enemy variety, super shotgun, some maps are really good, etc... I'm not saying this because I don't want to see your reviews, but I take them as non-serious, over the top opinions. Al Cu Ad Solte posted about Undying in a way that made me laugh and made the read enjoyable.
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Mar 26, 2013 01:37
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They give shotguns too much spread these days, then when they don't have too much spread they have crappy animations and sounds. The reload on the super shotgun is really what makes it feel so good. Doom 64 has the super shotgun but its sprite doesn't have a proper reload animation so while it still feels powerful it isn't half as badass.Guillermus posted:I take them as non-serious, over the top opinions. That's what they are. My post on Doom 2 said quite a few times that Doom 2 isn't all terrible levels and is far from all bad. juggalo baby coffin fucked around with this message at 01:43 on Mar 26, 2013 |
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Mar 26, 2013 01:40
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You guys ever play Marathon? You could dual wield shotguns. The reload animation on dual wielding shotguns was bananas and depressingly vague about how the gently caress you do that.
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Mar 26, 2013 01:43
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Fergus Mac Roich posted:You guys ever play Marathon? No, I didn't use computers that couldn't handle real Doom and Quake. 
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Mar 26, 2013 01:50
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The shotgun first showed up in Marathon 2, which was on computers that could handle Doom and Quake.
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Mar 26, 2013 01:52
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Is there a functional source port of Dark Forces about anywhere? All my googling has turned up is Dark XL, which I remember reading in this thread isn't finished and the guy may be crazy or something?
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Mar 26, 2013 01:52
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0 rows returned posted:The shotgun first showed up in Marathon 2, which was on computers that could handle Doom and Quake. Oh, I must have forgotten that it wasn't in 1. Yeah, 2 and Infinity are the ones that are actually worth playing anyway. But those shotguns were really funny to me and I loved using them.
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Mar 26, 2013 01:53
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Fergus Mac Roich posted:You guys ever play Marathon? You could dual wield shotguns. The reload animation on dual wielding shotguns was bananas and depressingly vague about how the gently caress you do that. Yeah, I love that gun. Its too bad ammo was kinda scarce for it.
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Mar 26, 2013 01:57
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I've got a couple of weird old-school shooter questions based memories of a game I saw my dad playing when I was a little kid. I've never been able to locate it, mostly because my only memories of it are a dark green demon enemy whose death animation was its skin falling off its skeleton then the skeleton collapsing. The other thing was possibly in the same game, but it was a level of (i think) slot machines with big eyeball monsters hiding behind them. I'm pretty sure they were 2.5d games, they both used sprites for the enemies. There was also another game, later and 3d, where there was a revolver where the reload animation was your guy palm-slamming a fistful of assorted cartridges into the gun.
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Mar 26, 2013 01:58
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FirstPersonShitter posted:My post on Doom 2 said quite a few times that Doom 2 isn't all terrible levels and is far from all bad. FirstPersonShitter posted:Today I would like to talk about Doom 2. And here I thought you didn't like to backtrack! 
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Mar 26, 2013 02:00
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I wish I could write a thesis on why I believe Redneck Rampage is a great FPS despite its horribly limited enemy diversity, most of which use hitscan weaponry. All I can say is that I love the way the game handled health recovery (food/alcohol/bathroom management), the aesthetics of the game (a wacky B-movie sci-fi motif with redneck stereotypes), and the soundtrack (Mojo Nixon, Reverened Horton Heat, Beat Farmers). I wish it had more fans; maybe somebody could've cobbled up some really great levels.
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Mar 26, 2013 02:03
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Fergus Mac Roich posted:You guys ever play Marathon? You could dual wield shotguns. The reload animation on dual wielding shotguns was bananas and depressingly vague about how the gently caress you do that. I love that the actual canon explanation of the WSTE-M reload is gently caress you Durandal posted:I won’t waste my time trying to explain the loading mechanism to you -- your primitive mind could never grasp its complex nature.
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Mar 26, 2013 02:03
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Fergus Mac Roich posted:You guys ever play Marathon? You could dual wield shotguns. The reload animation on dual wielding shotguns was bananas and depressingly vague about how the gently caress you do that. I won't waste my time trying to explain the loading mechanism to you; your primitive mind could never grasp its complex nature.  EDIT: Beaten to it. I'm not sure what was better about Marathon, the gameplay or the writing. I honestly think if Marathon had been on the PCs, it would be the only 90s FPS that could have legitimately challenged Doom's throne.
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Mar 26, 2013 02:04
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FirstPersonShitter posted:The reload on the super shotgun is really what makes it feel so good. Doom 64 has the super shotgun but its sprite doesn't have a proper reload animation so while it still feels powerful it isn't half as badass. The SSG firing, hitting a demon, which then collapses on the floor, followed by the CLACK CLACK CLACK of the reload is zen.
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Mar 26, 2013 02:06
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esselfortium posted:And here I thought you didn't like to backtrack! Read literally the next line after the part you quoted. Sheesh, you'd think I'd gone into watch & weight and cussed scarves and boat shoes. All this Marathon talk's got me interested. For the longest time I assumed it was on consoles or something, now that I know there's a source port I'll have to check it out.
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Mar 26, 2013 02:08
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TerminusEst13 posted:I won't waste my time trying to explain the loading mechanism to you; your primitive mind could never grasp its complex nature. Marathon 2 was released on Windows 95, but only about 6 weeks before Duke 3D came out. And a lot of people hadn't upgraded to Windows 95 yet, so the fact that Doom that was already out and Duke 3D and Quake which would come out shortly afterwards ran in DOS meant Marathon 2 for Windows 95 got pretty heavily overshadowed.
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Mar 26, 2013 02:11
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I stand corrected, then! I'd thought that Marathon was never on PC until Aleph One. Still, ouch, that's a pretty damning line-up to go against. Poor Marathon. 
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Mar 26, 2013 02:15
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I really enjoyed the weird levels of Doom 2 like Tricks n' Traps and Barrels of Fun. And to go off on another game, I recently installed Unreal Gold with the 227i fan patch and a few gigs of custom textures. It still holds up really well and the sound design and music is loving top notch. Honestly the thing that ages it the most is the quality of the animations and the fact that all of the buttons are these giant blocky constructs because everything is in 3D now. Thank goodness for that fan patch though, the sound was fuuucked without it.
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Mar 26, 2013 02:16
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FirstPersonShitter posted:All this Marathon talk's got me interested. For the longest time I assumed it was on consoles or something, now that I know there's a source port I'll have to check it out. You'll have a good time with it. If you're going in totally fresh, it's worth noting: Marathon 1 is quirky but has the best writing, Marathon 2 is a run-and-gun blast but has the weakest story, Marathon Infinity is backwards-talking-midget crazy but is the most consistently challenging.
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Mar 26, 2013 02:30
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FirstPersonShitter posted:I've got a couple of weird old-school shooter questions based memories of a game I saw my dad playing when I was a little kid. I've never been able to locate it, mostly because my only memories of it are a dark green demon enemy whose death animation was its skin falling off its skeleton then the skeleton collapsing. The other thing was possibly in the same game, but it was a level of (i think) slot machines with big eyeball monsters hiding behind them. I'm pretty sure they were 2.5d games, they both used sprites for the enemies. Pretty sure you're thinking of Corridor 7.
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Mar 26, 2013 02:33
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Mercury Crusader posted:I wish I could write a thesis on why I believe Redneck Rampage is a great FPS despite its horribly limited enemy diversity, most of which use hitscan weaponry. All I can say is that I love the way the game handled health recovery (food/alcohol/bathroom management), the aesthetics of the game (a wacky B-movie sci-fi motif with redneck stereotypes), and the soundtrack (Mojo Nixon, Reverened Horton Heat, Beat Farmers). I wish it had more fans; maybe somebody could've cobbled up some really great levels. I found that the beginning of the game is really terrible. As the game goes on, however, it gets better and better, though some of the enemies have too much health and should have it cut down a fair amount (the guys that get back up and the vixens). Route 66 is pretty fantastic, and what I played of Rides Again was good too, though the soundtrack, barring the first song, is not nearly as great. I think that Redneck Rampage is also the most difficult of the Build Engine FPS', because of health system and hitscan enemies leads to a lot of drinking a lot, no having anything around to eat, and spending ten minutes or so standing around waiting for your drink meter to go down. I think it could stand to have the cooldown on that be a lot shorter, personally. But goddamn is that soundtrack fantastic. I've been eagerly awaiting news from Bloatoid about if he'll make another Build Engine mod. I think he could do something amazing with Redneck Rampage or Shadow Warrior, or even Duke.
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Mar 26, 2013 02:33
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DoombatINC posted:I love that the actual canon explanation of the WSTE-M reload is gently caress you Holy moly, the name of that was the WSTE-M? They don't make em like they used to.
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Mar 26, 2013 02:43
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Fergus Mac Roich posted:Holy moly, the name of that was the WSTE-M? They don't make em like they used to. The rocket launcher in Halo was the SPNKr, too.
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Mar 26, 2013 02:49
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Fergus Mac Roich posted:Holy moly, the name of that was the WSTE-M? They don't make em like they used to. Yeah, the weapons include the WSTE-M shotgun, the SPNKR rocket launcher and the TOZT flamethrower. Now you've got me lookin' at youtubes of akimbo shotgun action I HOPE YOU'RE HAPPY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cXitbENwro
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Mar 26, 2013 02:50
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Fergus Mac Roich posted:How is it that nobody has topped that thing? We have had so many years of iteration on the FPS formula, and I think in video games as a whole there has been a ton of improvement on how games control, and how they *feel* to play, but somehow nobody has come up with a better shotgun. Dunno, I think Max Payne 1 came pretty close with its shotguns. I played through most of that game with just the shotgun and pistol, the best guns. Also I remember good things about the coach gun from Serious Sam.
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Mar 26, 2013 02:58
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DoombatINC posted:You'll have a good time with it. If you're going in totally fresh, it's worth noting: Marathon 1 is quirky but has the best writing, Marathon 2 is a run-and-gun blast but has the weakest story, Marathon Infinity is backwards-talking-midget crazy but is the most consistently challenging. Infinity's good levels are so, so, so good. They're beautiful, thoughtful, complex, and challenging, and they're so drat good. Infinity's bad levels, however, are basically crimes against humanity. Acme Station!! 
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Mar 26, 2013 03:05
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Thanks, I'll follow this guide later when we try again. I appreciate you taking the time to put it together. 
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Mar 26, 2013 03:34
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kmxexii posted:The SSG firing, hitting a demon, which then collapses on the floor, followed by the CLACK CLACK CLACK of the reload is zen. I always love Super Shotgunning Arachnotrons, I love how the SHOOMP from the shotgun goes so well with their death explosion. So satisfying. 
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Mar 26, 2013 03:46
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the key Doom II feeling is that horrible, horrible moment when the second SSG blast doesn't kill that Revenant.
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Mar 26, 2013 03:58
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One thing that I like about Doom 2 is that it introduced enemies that were actually dangerous. Even though you had the SUPER SHOTGUN, which really shortened a lot of engagements, enemies like Revenants and Chaingunners were powerful enough to really put you out quickly. All in all, the stakes were just higher, and everything just went a little faster and smoother.
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Mar 26, 2013 04:05
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RyokoTK posted:Infinity's good levels are so, so, so good. They're beautiful, thoughtful, complex, and challenging, and they're so drat good. Totally! I played through the series in reverse, starting with Infinity because it was the new hotness when I got my first Mac. So I was like, this is awesome and weirdass story really set it's hooks in. Then Durandal was like, yeah, this is alright too, and made a bit more sense of ∞. Never finished Marathon 1 to this day, loving platform loving puzzles gently caress I read all the terminal text and musings on the Marathon's Story page though so I don't feel left out (poo poo was far more engrossing than it had any right to be. Wait, there's been updates? Augghh there goes my night).
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Mar 26, 2013 04:25
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Glimpse posted:Totally! I cannot fathom how completely impenetrable the Infinity storyline must have been without having played at least Marathon 2. Marathon 1 actually matters relatively little outside of establishing Durandal and Tycho. Infinity's storyline is already so bizarre and incomprehensible because the time travel angle they were trying to work and the "you're making the decisions!!" stuff wasn't compatible with the exposition terminal system. I was 9 when Infinity came out and I just couldn't follow it at all. It's a fun game to play, but the bizarre storytelling really is unfortunate; M2 had a good balance of interesting background events and world-building coupled with straightforward story events. ETA: Infinity's storyline is actually frustrating in how it basically invalidates M2's entirely competent plot with the time travel nonsense. In M2, the overarching quest is for you (on behalf of Durandal) to revive the lost S'pht clan on Lh'owon and the ancient AI Thoth to help the other, enslaved S'pht overthrow the Pfhor masters and ultimately defeat them. Durandal gets comic book killed about 2/3 through M2, and the player has to do the rest of it with a bunch of worthless humans led by a guy unfortunately named Robert Blake. Tycho, in retaliation, uses a weapon called the trih xeem at Lh'owon's sun to destroy it, Durandal, the S'pht'Kr, and the planet. Some kind of eldritch monster called a w'rkncacnter was imprisoned inside the sun, though, and Infinity begins as the w'rkncacnter prepares to consume the universe or whatever. Anyway, the point of Infinity is that the player somehow gains the ability to travel through time, and the bulk of the game involves warping through alternate timelines to prevent Thoth from being awakened so that Tycho won't fire off the trih xeem and kill everything. It seems like simply not doing what you did in M2 would be enough (since you're the one that awakened Thoth), but no -- even when you join with Tycho to directly oppose Durandal more effectively, Robert Blake and his useless BOBs manage to get the job done anyway. So what was the point of M2? RyokoTK fucked around with this message at 04:48 on Mar 26, 2013 |
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Mar 26, 2013 04:37
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Infinity's story is pretty great once you figure out what the heck is going on, though. I find the ending very satisfying.
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Mar 26, 2013 04:47
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The combined efforts of the levels "You Think You're Big Time? You're Gonna Die Big Time!" and "Aye Mak Sicur" ( ) means Infinity ends on such a massive high note with two awesome action-packed levels. The entire last chapter of Infinity is good in total, but Big Time is a Doom-style slaughter map and Aye Mak Sicur is still one of the best levels made for shooters to this day.
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Mar 26, 2013 05:09
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RyokoTK posted:Anyway, the point of Infinity is that the player somehow gains the ability to travel through time, I thought it was Thoth himself who was sending you through space and time to prevent you from waking him, but I could be wrong because what the gently caress Infinity. What I never worked out was who was actually talking to you via the terminals that only exist in your dreams -- was it Thoth, another AI, the Lovecraftian monster inside the sun, or your own tortured subconscious reliving fragments of your life from when you were human? I'd continue but it's getting hard to see through the blood pouring from my eye sockets. Edit: You know, the first game had the Gheritt White terminal show up apropos of nothing, I should be hardened to this poo poo by now. DoombatINC fucked around with this message at 05:35 on Mar 26, 2013 |
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Mar 26, 2013 05:27
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It's probably Thoth, simply because who else could it be? The actual Jjaro are all dead, Thoth is all that's left. But in the successful timeline, you do end up waking Thoth anyway by fusing him with Durandal  The only difference between the successful timeline and the failure ones is that, by fusing Durandal with Tycho, Durandal knows about the Jjaro station (Aye Mak Sicur). But the only way you were able to do that is to take a fragment of Durandal's personality (Hang Brain) and hold on to it as you transition between timelines. And now my eyes are bleeding too. E: It's also probably Thoth talking to you in your "dreams," or at least that's mixed with the bizarre story told in the majority of the dream terminals, since you only dream in the course of time travel. Why the gently caress did they have to implement time travel in a perfectly sane franchise?
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Mar 26, 2013 05:38
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RyokoTK posted:So what was the point of M2? To give you the WSTE-M combat shotguns, which are the keys to destruction and enlightenment. Durandal also totally graffiti'd that moon even if DoombatINC posted:I thought it was Thoth himself who was sending you through space and time to prevent you from waking him, but I could be wrong because what the gently caress Infinity. What I never worked out was who was actually talking to you via the terminals that only exist in your dreams -- was it Thoth, another AI, the Lovecraftian monster inside the sun, or your own tortured subconscious reliving fragments of your life from when you were human? I'd continue but it's getting hard to see through the blood pouring from my eye sockets. Our Mjölnir Mark IV was crammed with mysterious technomagic from a godlike long dead civilization/individual, which reacted wierdly with Thoth awakening/combining, the W'rkncacnter waking up, and our Hero having to sift through probability and reality and perception with an overworked brain and nascent free will. It was basically all of the above; luckily our eternal warrior was just too focused on and good at hitting switches and shooting aliens to go crazy.
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Mar 26, 2013 05:43
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