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MY INEVITABLE DEBT
Apr 21, 2011
I am lonely and spend most of my time on 4Chan talking about the superiority of BBC porn.

Maha posted:

NL10 6max, I've been pretty active at this table (25/22, raised the odd flop).
I raise 6:h:6:d: to 4bb utg, button and BB call. Button is a good TAG, BB seems decent but weird (17/11, isn't reloading, made a weird turn check-raise against me ~100 hands ago).
Flop K:d:6:c:3:d:. BB checks, I bet 2/3 pot. Button folds, BB calls.
Turn 8:c:. BB checks, I bet 20bb into 28,5bb, he calls.
River 3:h:, he checks. How do I extract the most here? Not much's gonna call a decent bet, maybe AK/K:c:Q:c:. Maybe bet something like 1/3 pot? I could try to look weak and shove for slightly over pot, but I don't think he'll buy it. I could check to him and hope he turns a flush draw into a bluff, but he's not very aggressive. What do you think?

Is he checking to you or not? If he's not checking I would probably check to him because AK and KQ are going to bet and we can raise allin. If he is checking I would shove.

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fake_roogle
Jun 20, 2008

Bill Door posted:

Full Tilt Poker Game #32298194237: Table Lightning (6 max) - $0.05/$0.10 - No Limit Hold'em - 22:41:09 ET - 2013/03/12
Seats: 6
Seat 1: sodbrenner ($10.49)
Seat 2: YabuzZa ($9.08)
Seat 3: kamsak ($15.05)
Seat 4: BillDoor ($14.87)
Seat 5: Langolier_PS ($4.88)
Seat 6: DanToCash ($10)
Langolier_PS posts the small blind of $0.05
DanToCash posts the big blind of $0.10
The button is in seat #4
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to BillDoor [Th Ks]
sodbrenner folds
YabuzZa folds
kamsak has 8 seconds left to act
kamsak raises to $0.30
BillDoor has 15 seconds left to act
BillDoor raises to $0.80
Langolier_PS folds
DanToCash folds
kamsak calls $0.50
*** FLOP *** [Kh 3d Qs] (Total Pot: $1.75, 2 Players)
kamsak checks
BillDoor has 15 seconds left to act
BillDoor bets $0.86
kamsak calls $0.86
*** TURN *** [Kh 3d Qs] [Td] (Total Pot: $3.47, 2 Players)
kamsak checks
BillDoor has 15 seconds left to act
BillDoor bets $1.68
kamsak calls $1.68
*** RIVER *** [Kh 3d Qs Td] [5h] (Total Pot: $6.83, 2 Players)
kamsak checks
BillDoor has 15 seconds left to act
BillDoor bets $3.24
kamsak has 15 seconds left to act
kamsak raises to $9.89
?

It's rush and I don't have any info other than people seem to like to open CO a lot and it didn't seem like a terrible time to 3bet pre. I lose this hand a lot right? Every hand they raise for value except maybe QT beats me, AA AK/AQ all probably just flat, and I can't think of many hands they are turning into a bluff after calling flop and turn.
Without any reads, I'd say it's okay to fold. Assuming he's standard-ish, we're not doing well against a range that flats a 3bet pre and call/call/shoves (~35% against AA, TT, 33, AKs, AJs, AKo, AJo, KQs, J9s - without 33, it's still 38%ish). It's also worth bearing in mind that we're just about 150bbs deep - 2 pair on this wet of a board just kind of sucks to get it in for that much.

fake_roogle fucked around with this message at 06:52 on Mar 18, 2013

Dr. Eat
Jan 4, 2005
Brain Specialist

fake_roogle posted:

Without any reads, I'd say it's okay to fold. Assuming he's standard-ish, we're not doing well against a range that flats a 3bet pre and call/call/shoves (~35% against AA, TT, 33, AKs, AJs, AKo, AJo, KQs, J9s - without 33, it's still 38%ish). It's also worth bearing in mind that we're just about 150bbs deep - 2 pair on this wet of a board just kind of sucks to get it in for that much.
yea i fold here.

Bill Door
Dec 30, 2008

Dr. Eat posted:

yea i fold here.

Yeah afterwards I thought I should be folding. Obviously I called and lost, they had queens.

Dr. Eat
Jan 4, 2005
Brain Specialist

Bill Door posted:

Yeah afterwards I thought I should be folding. Obviously I called and lost, they had queens.
river check-raise jams are like always monsters fwiw. i just assume people have it until they give me reason to believe otherwise or i've been 3barelling a ton.

especially at micros rush from a fullstacker (though i haven't played zoom in a while and not rush on the new FTP so idk what the games are like) i would never expect someone to show up with like, AT for like the only busted gutter here in almost any game.

I guess something like JT is possible but i don't even see that continuing cause can't have JTdd. so yea just think KQ/AJ/TT/maybe 33.
every other street is fine tho i would always be 3betting bigger pre.

Maha
Dec 29, 2006
sapere aude

MY INEVITABLE DEBT posted:

Is he checking to you or not? If he's not checking I would probably check to him because AK and KQ are going to bet and we can raise allin. If he is checking I would shove.

Oops, I got mixed up while writing down the hand, he was checking to me.

Thom Yorke raps
Nov 2, 2004


Maha posted:

NL10 6max, I've been pretty active at this table (25/22, raised the odd flop).
I raise 6:h:6:d: to 4bb utg, button and BB call. Button is a good TAG, BB seems decent but weird (17/11, isn't reloading, made a weird turn check-raise against me ~100 hands ago).
Flop K:d:6:c:3:d:. BB checks, I bet 2/3 pot. Button folds, BB calls.
Turn 8:c:. BB checks, I bet 20bb into 28,5bb, he calls.
River 3:h:, he checks. How do I extract the most here? Not much's gonna call a decent bet, maybe AK/K:c:Q:c:. Maybe bet something like 1/3 pot? I could try to look weak and shove for slightly over pot, but I don't think he'll buy it. I could check to him and hope he turns a flush draw into a bluff, but he's not very aggressive. What do you think?

Bet more on turn so you can jam the river. Now jam the river. Draws missed and he is weird and probably doesn't have a draw and if he does he certainly isn't check raising it on the river

Stangg
Mar 17, 2009
Would like some feedback on this hand, villain was a loose passive player though I didn't have many stats on them.

Seat 6 is the button
Seat 1: Player1 ( $5.00 USD ) - VPIP: 8, PFR: 8, 3B: 0, AF: 0.0, Hands: 40
Seat 4: Player4 ( $9.15 USD ) - VPIP: 15, PFR: 2, 3B: 0, AF: 0.0, Hands: 53
Seat 5: Hero ( $6.02 USD ) - VPIP: 26, PFR: 19, 3B: 5, AF: 2.2, Hands: 10097
Seat 6: Player6 ( $5.22 USD ) - VPIP: 13, PFR: 11, 3B: 2, AF: 5.0, Hands: 126
Seat 7: Player7 ( $6.14 USD ) - VPIP: 22, PFR: 18, 3B: 10, AF: 7.0, Hands: 79
Seat 8: Player8 ( $6.93 USD ) - VPIP: 18, PFR: 12, 3B: 11, AF: 0.0, Hands: 49
Seat 9: Player9 ( $2.19 USD ) - VPIP: 25, PFR: 9, 3B: 0, AF: 0.7, Hands: 32
Player7 posts small blind [$0.02 USD].
Player8 posts big blind [$0.05 USD].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hero [ 2s 3s ]
Player9 calls [$0.05 USD]
Player1 folds
Player4 folds
Hero raises [$0.15 USD]
Player6 folds
Player7 calls [$0.13 USD]
Player8 folds
Player9 calls [$0.10 USD]
** Dealing Flop ** [ 9d, 7d, Kh ]
Player7 checks
Player9 checks
Hero bets [$0.20 USD]
Player7 folds
Player9 calls [$0.20 USD]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 5c ]
Player9 checks
Hero bets [$0.35 USD]
Player9 calls [$0.35 USD]
** Dealing River ** [ 6h ]
Player9 checks
Hero bets [$0.55 USD]
Player9 folds
Hero wins $0.55 USD
Hero wins $1.53 USD from main pot

Mind_Taker
May 7, 2007



I'd just fold preflop. 23s is just a bad hand and plays much differently than T9s or even 76s. You're never making top pair or middle pair and you have fewer straight possibilities, most of which are going to be the bad end of the straight. Would you have opened here with 72o? Because against a loose passive player you are usually looking to make a big hand and get paid off. Those stats, especially in a full ring game, suggest that he is a calling station and combined with him being short stacked this is a pretty clear fold.

As played post flop I guess it's fine but I'd bet more on the river to try to get him to fold like A9 or maybe even a weak king as this is a scary board for those hands. But preflop is bad IMO.

Mind_Taker fucked around with this message at 15:46 on Mar 25, 2013

Maha
Dec 29, 2006
sapere aude
Yeah, fold pre. 23s is bad and it's even worse against someone who'll call you down with any piece of the board.

Stangg
Mar 17, 2009
Yeah I know I shouldn't be playing 23s but on this particular table I was getting so many blinds from raising in that position it seemed fine.

Mind_Taker
May 7, 2007



Stangg posted:

Yeah I know I shouldn't be playing 23s but on this particular table I was getting so many blinds from raising in that position it seemed fine.

If your plan was to steal the blinds and the limp I'd at least raise more preflop then. Villain is never folding for just $0.10 more. But again if you are opening there with 23s are you opening with 72o? I don't mind opening wide here but 23s is just a little too wide for me.

Stangg
Mar 17, 2009

Mind_Taker posted:

If your plan was to steal the blinds and the limp I'd at least raise more preflop then. Villain is never folding for just $0.10 more. But again if you are opening there with 23s are you opening with 72o? I don't mind opening wide here but 23s is just a little too wide for me.

Yeah you're probably right I'm not attempting to steal with 72 (though I would if there wasn't a limper), what would be the bottom end of your range to steal blinds + limp?

TheAbortionator
Mar 4, 2005

Without a fish in the blinds 45s is the bottom of my cut off range.

I know you are full ring, but this was what I was given (the numbers were given, I made the chart, please note the craftsmanship and artistry) when I first stated getting coached at 6 max.



You can also open way wider as the button, and obviously the most important thing is other players. So sometimes play tighter, sometimes looser, but in a vacuum this should keep you out of trouble.

TheAbortionator fucked around with this message at 17:02 on Mar 25, 2013

Stangg
Mar 17, 2009
Seat 9 is the button
Seat 1: Player1 ( $5.05 USD ) - VPIP: 10, PFR: 7, 3B: 4, AF: 0.0, Hands: 72
Seat 2: Player2 ( $6.59 USD ) - VPIP: 23, PFR: 20, 3B: 8, AF: 0.0, Hands: 35
Seat 4: Player4 ( $14.06 USD ) - VPIP: 10, PFR: 2, 3B: 0, AF: 0.7, Hands: 52
Seat 5: Player5 ( $2.43 USD ) - VPIP: 16, PFR: 12, 3B: 8, AF: 2.0, Hands: 264
Seat 6: Player6 ( $5.41 USD ) - VPIP: 37, PFR: 37, 3B: 36, AF: 0.0, Hands: 35
Seat 7: Player7 ( $5.46 USD ) - VPIP: 11, PFR: 5, 3B: 0, AF: 0.7, Hands: 204
Seat 8: Player8 ( $5.00 USD ) - VPIP: 10, PFR: 10, 3B: 14, AF: 2.0, Hands: 39
Seat 9: Hero ( $9.94 USD ) - VPIP: 26, PFR: 19, 3B: 5, AF: 2.3, Hands: 11247
Player1 posts small blind [$0.02 USD].
Player2 posts big blind [$0.05 USD].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hero [ 7h 7s ]
Player4 folds
Player5 folds
Player6 raises [$0.15 USD]
Player7 calls [$0.15 USD]
Player8 folds
Hero calls [$0.15 USD]
Player1 folds
Player2 folds
** Dealing Flop ** [ 5h, Th, 7d ]
Player6 bets [$0.35 USD]
Player7 calls [$0.35 USD]
Hero raises [$1.50 USD]
Player6 folds
Player7 calls [$1.15 USD]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 4d ]
Player7 checks
Hero checks
** Dealing River ** [ Qs ]
Player7 bets [$1.15 USD]
Hero calls [$1.15 USD]



My though process when the nit called my raise on the flop was that he had a set of 10s but that I couldn't lay down my set. I'm not sure if my river flat call was correct, min raise?

Stangg fucked around with this message at 00:31 on Mar 27, 2013

manyak
Jan 26, 2006
That's a pretty passive line to take with middle set on that unconnected of a board. When you flop the set and youre betting $1.50 already you should be comfortable getting it in with like $5 effective stacks. Top set over middle set is just a cooler and you can take it and move on usually. Unless you have a super sweet read on him you cant just assume he has literally the one hand that beats you just because he calls a decent size raise on the flop. He probably plays overpairs and maybe like AQh similarly. Just flat calling the river is pretty rough too

You also dont need to post the results of the hand :cool:

TheAbortionator
Mar 4, 2005

1010 is just as likely as 55, plus all the other hands you beat, nits still stack off with over pairs, bet turn, jam river every time.

Its really really really easy to play against someone that isn't raising the second nuts (I don't think he has 68 here).

You are playing 26% of hands at full ring which is pretty laggy, you cant play laggy unless you are going to town for value with anything that resembles the best hand because people are going to call you down pretty light.

Like if the only part of your value range here is 1010, and 68s then when you bet this river you can only have 7 total value combos + all the air that you decide to bet with, and for this reason I would never ever fold anything to a river bet after I have seen you just call with 77. (this is where the "sucks at value betting" note comes in handy)

TheAbortionator fucked around with this message at 02:33 on Mar 27, 2013

Stangg
Mar 17, 2009

TheAbortionator posted:

1010 is just as likely as 55, plus all the other hands you beat, nits still stack off with over pairs, bet turn, jam river every time.

Its really really really easy to play against someone that isn't raising the second nuts (I don't think he has 68 here).

You are playing 26% of hands at full ring which is pretty laggy, you cant play laggy unless you are going to town for value with anything that resembles the best hand because people are going to call you down pretty light.

Like if the only part of your value range here is 1010, and 68s then when you bet this river you can only have 7 total value combos + all the air that you decide to bet with, and for this reason I would never ever fold anything to a river bet after I have seen you just call with 77. (this is where the "sucks at value betting" note comes in handy)

Yeah I've not been playing very long so my stats are still skewed to the wrong end of how I played when I started (and lost :P), over the past week each of my sessions have ended up between 21 and 23 depending on how the table is playing.

Of course sometimes I'm playing on a table full of rocks and weak limpers and raise it up whenever I feel like they will fold.

Stangg
Mar 17, 2009
***** Hand History for Game 1111111111 ***** (Poker Stars)
$5.00 USD NL Texas Hold'em - Wednesday, March 27, 08:00:25 ET 2013
Table Hyakutake II (Real Money)
Seat 9 is the button
Seat 2: Player2 ( $5.51 USD ) - VPIP: 13, PFR: 9, 3B: 0, AF: 0.0, Hands: 76
Seat 3: Player3 ( $8.21 USD ) - VPIP: 18, PFR: 12, 3B: 0, AF: 1.5, Hands: 66
Seat 4: Player4 ( $5.00 USD ) - VPIP: 13, PFR: 10, 3B: 2, AF: 3.0, Hands: 147
Seat 5: Hero ( $8.24 USD ) - VPIP: 26, PFR: 19, 3B: 5, AF: 2.3, Hands: 11689
Seat 6: Player6 ( $0.76 USD ) - VPIP: 13, PFR: 4, 3B: 0, AF: 3.0, Hands: 24
Seat 7: Player7 ( $4.87 USD ) - VPIP: 13, PFR: 12, 3B: 5, AF: 3.0, Hands: 188
Seat 8: Player8 ( $5.28 USD ) - VPIP: 24, PFR: 19, 3B: 4, AF: 0.0, Hands: 88
Seat 9: Player9 ( $7.47 USD ) - VPIP: 10, PFR: 8, 3B: 2, AF: 1.1, Hands: 241
Player2 posts small blind [$0.02 USD].
Player3 posts big blind [$0.05 USD].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hero [ Kd Qd ]
Player4 raises [$0.15 USD]
Hero raises [$0.45 USD]
Player6 folds
Player7 folds
Player8 folds
Player9 folds
Player2 folds
Player3 calls [$0.40 USD]
Player4 calls [$0.30 USD]
** Dealing Flop ** [ 7h, 8c, Kc ]
Player3 checks
Player4 bets [$0.45 USD]
Hero raises [$0.90 USD]
Player3 calls [$0.90 USD]
Player4 calls [$0.45 USD]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 2s ]
Player3 checks
Player4 checks
Hero bets [$2.50 USD]



Basically this hand had me puking, but the checks on the turn stank of weakness or missed flush draws so I figured I had to fire the bet from position, I would have probably folded to any bet there. I had a solid TAG image at the table.

Mind_Taker
May 7, 2007



What were your reads, if any, on Player4? Player3?

Based just on the stats I don't like 3-betting an UTG raiser with KQs, I think calling is better as you'll be in position against him throughout the hand, and if other people call your hand plays fine multiway. Why did you decide to 3-bet?

As played, when Player4 led out on the flop what sort of range are you putting him on? And when you decided to raise, why did you minraise? Minraising a player's bet is almost always the wrong move. You're never getting a better hand to fold and all drawing hands are going to have the right odds to call.

quote:

Basically this hand had me puking, but the checks on the turn stank of weakness or missed flush draws so I figured I had to fire the bet from position, I would have probably folded to any bet there. I had a solid TAG image at the table.

You 3-bet preflop, raise (albeit a minraise) the flop, and then a blank falls on the turn. Why would these villains do anything but check their entire range to you here? Sure they will have flush and straight draws in their range but what weak hands do they have? A hand like AK would certainly play it this way. Both Villains could have AK here very easily and their lines make sense. They could also have a set and be slowplaying for some reason. I'd believe that before I'd believe either one has a "weak" hand like TT or JJ.

Then you go on to say you will fold to any bet when pretty much nothing has changed between the flop and the turn.

The biggest mistake was preflop where you inflated the size of the pot for no reason that I can tell.

Stangg
Mar 17, 2009

Mind_Taker posted:

What were your reads, if any, on Player4? Player3?

Based just on the stats I don't like 3-betting an UTG raiser with KQs, I think calling is better as you'll be in position against him throughout the hand, and if other people call your hand plays fine multiway. Why did you decide to 3-bet?

As played, when Player4 led out on the flop what sort of range are you putting him on? And when you decided to raise, why did you minraise? Minraising a player's bet is almost always the wrong move. You're never getting a better hand to fold and all drawing hands are going to have the right odds to call.


You 3-bet preflop, raise (albeit a minraise) the flop, and then a blank falls on the turn. Why would these villains do anything but check their entire range to you here? Sure they will have flush and straight draws in their range but what weak hands do they have? A hand like AK would certainly play it this way. Both Villains could have AK here very easily and their lines make sense. They could also have a set and be slowplaying for some reason. I'd believe that before I'd believe either one has a "weak" hand like TT or JJ.

Then you go on to say you will fold to any bet when pretty much nothing has changed between the flop and the turn.

The biggest mistake was preflop where you inflated the size of the pot for no reason that I can tell.

My reads that both were weak tight players that I could dominate if they missed the flop or only caught a small piece of it, they generally bet quite honestly and any time they had anything would follow through with raising and betting on every turn allowing me to get out, a cbet wouldn't concern me from the UTG but a cbet and a raise would.

The original 3bet intention was to isolate, for some reason on this particular table, people seemed inclined to get involved with pots when someone raises from early position but less so if it's 3bet.

I think you're right that I got myself into the horrible situation with my pre flop actions, I was trying to demonstrate a value bet and a show of strength with my min raise post flop. I got myself confused thinking I could outplay them.

manyak
Jan 26, 2006
I could probably just ask this in one of the other threads but I'll post the hand anyway:

Live 1/2, 10 handed, morning crowd of nits and a few ok players but fairly deep stacked

Villain is an old guy, extremely tight, playing few hands and really passive fit or fold. Earlier checked behind a river with the 2nd nut flush
Me young with LAG image but havent had to showdown any bluffs and got it in good a few times

Effective stacks like $400

Villain raises to $12 (standard for table) UTG+1
Folds around to me in BB with 8:s:9:s:, I call

Flop comes K:d:6:s:7:s: (pot $25)

I check
Villain bets $15
I raise to $50
Villain calls

Turn is 2:h: (pot $125)

I check
Villain bets $100
I fold


PF flat call is a little loose because his range is super transparent and Im happy getting into pots with him especially heads up, OOP is bad but i closed the action at least

Hit the flop well obviously, but then i start to go nuts. Am i right in trying to get more money in on the flop? My thinking being that I have a ton of equity against his range except for sets and A:s:K:s:, I expect he might be calling with made hands that have less equity. And then sorta hoping that even if the turn was a brick he would check behind out of fear of the check raise as Id seen him do before and i could get a free look at the river

Pretty sure hes never bluffing when he throws in the 100 chip on the turn, im certainly beat here but still drawing live potentially, basically just an auto muck?


Looking at the hand again inflating the pot on the flop was probably stupid since its a barely ahead/way behind situation but I just wanted to get paid off somehow on my sweet monster draw haha and my thought process was probably retarded. Since stacks were pretty 200bb deep I thought implied odds maybe made it ok but i dunno. Being a nit he probably doesnt pay off if a 5 comes, if another unconnected spade comes hes only gonna be calling with a better flush like AKs. He basically only pays off the straight flush when he has the nut flush and maybe pays off a 10 for the straight. Should I have just flatted the flop or what. Help me poker goons

Lote
Aug 5, 2001

Place your bets

manyak posted:

I could probably just ask this in one of the other threads but I'll post the hand anyway:

Live 1/2, 10 handed, morning crowd of nits and a few ok players but fairly deep stacked

Villain is an old guy, extremely tight, playing few hands and really passive fit or fold. Earlier checked behind a river with the 2nd nut flush


That's so tight that his club flush turned into a diamond flush.

Mind_Taker
May 7, 2007



Preflop I would go either way. Calling is fine, folding is fine. You're both 200 BBs deep so 89s goes up in value even if it was an open 6x.

Flop is fine. You have huge equity against his range, likely having 15 clean outs. You get him to fold a ton of equity against your actual hand on the flop or turn if he has something like JJ or QQ.

I don't mind the turn check against this opponent since most old nits will just call down with any big K here, but you can't fold to his turn bet. You still likely have 15 outs and you're getting 2.25:1 on a call and against a conservative range (sets, AK, AA, KQ) you are getting the right immediate pot odds to call, not to mention the implied odds when you hit you could potentially get his remaining $238.

In my live poker experience being a nit doesn't mean they won't pay you off, it just means they are tighter preflop and more passive postflop. If he has, say, AA and an offsuit 5 comes on the river why would he necessarily put you on a straight? Why couldn't he put you on a missed spade draw? Nits hate folding overpairs or TPTK especially to younger players unless there's like a 4-straight or 4-flush on the board. When he bets the turn that big I think he is rarely folding river, so in actuality you are calling a $100 turn bet to win the $225 in the pot plus his remaining $238 because you can shove if you hit the river.

TheAbortionator
Mar 4, 2005

Mind_Taker posted:

I don't mind the turn check against this opponent since most old nits will just call down with any big K here, but you can't fold to his turn bet.

If this is the case why don't we just fire turn ourselves? If we bet 70 into 125, we set a decent price for ourselves, and play it exactly like we would a set.

TheAbortionator fucked around with this message at 16:52 on Mar 28, 2013

Mind_Taker
May 7, 2007



TheAbortionator posted:

If this is the case why don't we just fire turn ourselves?

What's he folding on the turn that he called a c/r with on the flop? We're now about 2:1 underdogs against his range and unless there's some fold equity what is the point of putting money in the pot as an underdog? Also there's a chance that he checks behind turn with a hand like KQ and we get a free river card.

Against an old nit I just don't see him showing up with anything but top pair good kicker or better, or a flush or straight draw. I don't see him folding to a turn bet enough with this range to make the bet profitable. I also don't think he's calling flop with a hand like QQ that would then fold to further aggression on the turn.

Mind_Taker fucked around with this message at 16:51 on Mar 28, 2013

TheAbortionator
Mar 4, 2005

I get that he probably isnt folding, but we are almost free rolling with our equity, and we get to make the pot bigger for when we do get there.

Also the check raise, check call line is really really transparent as a draw.

I just don't know if the chance of a free card is worth giving up the initiative.

Honest question, are we worried about getting raised?

TheAbortionator fucked around with this message at 16:57 on Mar 28, 2013

Mind_Taker
May 7, 2007



TheAbortionator posted:

I get that he probably isnt folding, but we are almost free rolling with our equity, and we get to make the pot bigger for when we do get there.

Also the check raise, check call line is really really transparent as a draw.

I just don't know if the chance of a free card is worth giving up the initiative.

Honest question, are we worried about getting raised?

But we also make it bigger when we don't get there. And the 2/3 of the time we miss, we have to c/f against this opponent because the only thing he's folding at that point are missed spades like A:s:Q:s: and A:s:J:s:. He never has a straight draw here since he raised pre. And the chances he checks behind are pretty high if he has a hand like KQ or AK because once a nit faces one raise they play really passively. If there is even like a 1/3 chance we get a free card on the river it should make it worth it.

While c/r, c/c might be transparent to some players, old nits don't read hands they are level 0 thinkers. So I don't care if good players uninvolved in the hand know what type of hand I have because I'd play it differently against them and certainly bet this turn.

I don't care about initiative in this instance because old nits don't take advantage of initiative they just play their cards.

I'm not worried about getting raised if we do decide to bet turn because we'd have correct pot odds to call. We'd be getting better than 2:1 odds to call which is probably our equity in the pot against a raising range.

Mind_Taker fucked around with this message at 17:13 on Mar 28, 2013

TheAbortionator
Mar 4, 2005

That makes sense.

A part of me wants to believe that some old dude sitting around a casino playing cards every sunday is going to see through the obvious line but then again the checked back second nut flush kinda dismisses that.

Mind_Taker posted:

But we also make it bigger when we don't get there.

A bigger pot on the turn makes it easy to get stacks in on the river. If the turn gets checked through would you just open shove after getting there on the river? Would that work?

TheAbortionator fucked around with this message at 18:02 on Mar 28, 2013

Mind_Taker
May 7, 2007



TheAbortionator posted:

That makes sense.

A part of me wants to believe that some old dude sitting around a casino playing cards every sunday is going to see through the obvious line but then again the checked back second nut flush kinda dismisses that.


A bigger pot on the turn makes it easy to get stacks in on the river. If the turn gets checked through would you just open shove after getting there on the river? Would that work?

It's read dependent but I think a bigger bet size would be best and it also depends if you hit your straight which is more disguised. If an offsuit T comes on the river I'd consider a bet of like $150 or more. If a spade comes I'd probably bet like $100. But again, it depends on reads. I've just found that old nits are very binary in their choices: either they'll call or they'll fold depending on their hand strength, so you might as well bet big when you have a monster. Maybe not all in but much larger than you'd bet it against a competent player.

manyak
Jan 26, 2006

Mind_Taker posted:

But we also make it bigger when we don't get there. And the 2/3 of the time we miss, we have to c/f against this opponent because the only thing he's folding at that point are missed spades like A:s:Q:s: and A:s:J:s:. He never has a straight draw here since he raised pre. And the chances he checks behind are pretty high if he has a hand like KQ or AK because once a nit faces one raise they play really passively. If there is even like a 1/3 chance we get a free card on the river it should make it worth it.

While c/r, c/c might be transparent to some players, old nits don't read hands they are level 0 thinkers. So I don't care if good players uninvolved in the hand know what type of hand I have because I'd play it differently against them and certainly bet this turn.

I don't care about initiative in this instance because old nits don't take advantage of initiative they just play their cards.

I'm not worried about getting raised if we do decide to bet turn because we'd have correct pot odds to call. We'd be getting better than 2:1 odds to call which is probably our equity in the pot against a raising range.

Yeah i was a little worried about making the pot huge and then having to check fold the river when i didnt get there, since Id have no fold equity against his range that calls the flop ch/r and fires a 4/5 pot turn bet. Against the few thinking players at the table of course it would be a different line from the very beginning so it was all based around trying to get the old guy to stack off or at least a big pot heads up with TPTK or a pocket pair.

I think i was just really banking on him to check behind the turn and when he fired a big bet (uncharacteristically) i shut down a bit and decided i wasnt getting pot odds against the hands that he plays that aggressively, which was giving him too much credit? I see that the turn is a call though now. Its also not unreasonable to think he does check behind the turn a decent amount of the time right? Old guys at the casino really hate getting check raised and i thought i was getting a free river more than half the time

Thanks for the discussion though dudes

Teppec
Nov 7, 2004

Oranges everywhere!
I'd prefer ch/r fire turn and set our own price, vs ch/c turn. And depending on just how tight villain is, we may or may not be able to bomb river regardless of what comes. I'd much rather keep firing though to also build the pot so if we do think he's never folding, we get everything on the river. Way too much equity to ever be ch/f turn. And for the record, putting money in the pot on the flop with an oesfd is never ever inflating or bloating it unnecessarily.

manyak
Jan 26, 2006
So even with a super tight passive player its worth it to lead out on the turn and set the price for the river instead of checking (like I did, hoping he checks behind and gives a free look at a river a lot of the time)? If i could play the hand again of course I might fire like 75 and set a better price, but at the time with how passive villain was I thought the % of times he checks behind outweighs setting a lower price. I could be way off though. And ch/f the turn was a bad equity mistake definitely

discstickers
Jul 29, 2004

1/3 at the local casino. Villain is a solid, aggressive reg (but I haven't played with him before).

Effective stacks are ~$400

Hero is dealt A2o (no club) in SB. Three limpers including villain on the button. Hero completes, BB checks.
Flop is T62 (two clubs). Hero bets 10, folds to button who raises to 20. Hero calls.
Turn is Ah. Hero checks, button bets 30. Hero calls.
River is 8s. Hero checks, button bets 75. Hero raises to 200. Button goes all in. Hero calls.

EngineerSean
Feb 9, 2004

by zen death robot

discstickers posted:

1/3 at the local casino. Villain is a solid, aggressive reg (but I haven't played with him before).

Effective stacks are ~$400

Hero is dealt A2o (no club) in SB. Three limpers including villain on the button. Hero completes, BB checks.
Flop is T62 (two clubs). Hero bets 10, folds to button who raises to 20. Hero calls.
Turn is Ah. Hero checks, button bets 30. Hero calls.
River is 8s. Hero checks, button bets 75. Hero raises to 200. Button goes all in. Hero calls.

Why would you flat call the turn but c/r the river? You can punish his potential draw on the turn but what hand that you beat calls your river raise? Yeah you've got a nice big hand but he has shown aggression on every street. I'm not sure you can fold the river after betting 200 of your ~300 stack but the real mistake is betting 200. I expect to see 66 or AcXc here about 90% of the time.

Dr. Eat
Jan 4, 2005
Brain Specialist
this hand is mega bad and a pretty crazy overplay in a limped pot.

fold A2o pre. check/fold flop.

on river your hand is kind of just a bluffcatcher. i would shrug and call i guess. raising is spew.

MY INEVITABLE DEBT
Apr 21, 2011
I am lonely and spend most of my time on 4Chan talking about the superiority of BBC porn.

Dr. Eat posted:

this hand is mega bad and a pretty crazy overplay in a limped pot.

fold A2o pre. check/fold flop.

on river your hand is kind of just a bluffcatcher. i would shrug and call i guess. raising is spew.

def never folding pre and def always betting flop and def always calling the minraise. then prob ch/c twice turn and river

discstickers
Jul 29, 2004

EngineerSean posted:

Why would you flat call the turn but c/r the river? You can punish his potential draw on the turn but what hand that you beat calls your river raise? Yeah you've got a nice big hand but he has shown aggression on every street. I'm not sure you can fold the river after betting 200 of your ~300 stack but the real mistake is betting 200. I expect to see 66 or AcXc here about 90% of the time.

TT raises pre most of the time. 66 or 22 has to raise more than that on the flop.

AmnesiaLab
Nov 9, 2004

Stark raving sane.
Um... I'm never folding A2 in the SB with that many people in a limped pot.

I don't mind leading or a c/c on the flop, and I'm calling against a minraise. After we turn two pair, I think I prefer just leading again to a c/c. Out hand just got a lot stronger, and weaker hands will call us here a lot while most of the hands that are killing us will raise.

As played, I just c/c the river. There's no way I checkraise here. What do you really think you're getting value from here?

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Blinky2099
May 27, 2007

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

AmnesiaLab posted:

Um... I'm never folding A2 in the SB with that many people in a limped pot.

I don't mind leading or a c/c on the flop, and I'm calling against a minraise. After we turn two pair, I think I prefer just leading again to a c/c. Out hand just got a lot stronger, and weaker hands will call us here a lot while most of the hands that are killing us will raise.

As played, I just c/c the river. There's no way I checkraise here. What do you really think you're getting value from here?

This. I especially like the turn logic.

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