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Juc66 posted:So Warren Spector asks, why ARE we all terrible people (except for a couple indies)? Anyone who wants to make a Citizen Kane or an Argo or a Life of Pi (the movie version of course) probably realizes that they can accomplish what they want to accomplish much more easily if the audience doesn't have a say in how the shot is composited or how the main character behaves or what the main character's internal monologue is, and if they didn't have to put filler in between story beats because the audience somehow expects their precious auteur experience to be "interactive." And anyone who wants to make a Journey, or a Papers Please, or a Minecraft probably realizes what they can accomplish what they want to accomplish more easily if they allow the audience to experience and prod and make decisions, and explore their relationship with the work individually rather than watch a proxy go through a preset character arc with preset feelings and preset themes. But a Journey or a Papers Please or a Minecraft isn't a Citizen Kane or Argo or Life of Pi.
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Apr 6, 2013 04:02
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caldrax posted:I have always considered games to be art, and am completely defiant to anyone who disagrees. Whether or not they're "good art" depends on the game... I agree entirely as well. I think the only reasonable argument against them being "art" is when someone defines "art" as meaning "well regarded fine art" which even then is challenged by certain indie games. Chernabog posted:4- It's video games. Where do we draw the line between a game and art? Is there even a line? Is something like Dear Esther actually a game? Or is it "interactive video art"? I will agree that videogames are always art (although frequently or maybe even entirely "bad art"), but I think there is an interesting pushback with "interactive" art that uses game tools but fails to make a game. Dear Esther manages to fall into that trap pretty well - there are no decisions to be made (which I think is the core definition of "game" - causing a player to make a decision with their input, whether it is jumping to avoid a pit/enemy or choosing a response in an adventure game), making it art dressing up as a game, instead of the usual critique of it going the other way. The really unfortunate bit with Dear Esther is that by failing to be a game (which would have required only the barest of interactions - perhaps not going to a cutscene for the ending but instead forcing the player to commit the climactic action) it winds up being markedly worse as media - by removing the game bit it becomes too easily comparable to books or movies or other non-interactive art. Because walking without purpose and making no decisions in Dear Esther is mechanically different than advancing a movie reel, but no less interactive or purposeful. Perhaps you could make the argument that there is a performance art element to one's playthrough, much in the way manipulating the playback of a movie reel could be a performance art piece, but the lack of player agency or decisions in Dear Esther makes it a non-game.
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Apr 6, 2013 04:23
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Amazon Game Studios needs 3d game programmers, artists, and game designers (and more). Positions in Seattle, WA and Lake Forest, CA. We're doing some cool stuff, making the kinds of games you probably want to play and make. List of jobs here. Edit: Shalinor, I'd like to post this in the Game Development Megathread over in Cavern of COBOL, but I rarely post in that thread and I'm not sure if it'd be kosher?
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Apr 6, 2013 04:38
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DancingMachine posted:Amazon Game Studios needs 3d game programmers, artists, and game designers (and more). Positions in Seattle, WA and Lake Forest, CA. We're doing some cool stuff, making the kinds of games you probably want to play and make.  This sounds pretty cool, sent you a PM.
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Apr 6, 2013 05:21
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DancingMachine posted:Edit: Shalinor, I'd like to post this in the Game Development Megathread over in Cavern of COBOL, but I rarely post in that thread and I'm not sure if it'd be kosher?
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Apr 6, 2013 05:24
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DancingMachine posted:Amazon Game Studios needs 3d game programmers, artists, and game designers (and more). Positions in Seattle, WA and Lake Forest, CA. We're doing some cool stuff, making the kinds of games you probably want to play and make. What kind of games are those? I'm curious what markets Amazon is interested in.
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Apr 6, 2013 07:07
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Sigma-X posted:I will agree that videogames are always art (although frequently or maybe even entirely "bad art"), but I think there is an interesting pushback with "interactive" art that uses game tools but fails to make a game. Dear Esther manages to fall into that trap pretty well - there are no decisions to be made (which I think is the core definition of "game" - causing a player to make a decision with their input, whether it is jumping to avoid a pit/enemy or choosing a response in an adventure game), making it art dressing up as a game, instead of the usual critique of it going the other way. But I don't think you give it enough credit in differentiating itself from other "passive" forms of media because of the randomness of the narrative. Different playthroughs can net you different voice overs which can completely alter your interpretation of events: which of the three characters are you (the player), anyway? What's the relationship between those three characters? These things are kind of malleable - not based on player choice, but on some random element that can make the experience different. Sure, this could be achieved with something that is decidedly not a "game" - some art installation of some non-interactive video or audio that has a random component - but the medium of "games" lends itself to the sort of setup that Dear Esther utilises. I know your point is bigger than just Dear Esther, though. While Passage is presented in a way that wouldn't be so easily transferable to a different medium as Dear Esther, I still question it being a "game" with it's inconsequential scoring and the way it's actually frustrating to play.
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Apr 6, 2013 09:07
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Akuma posted:While Passage is presented in a way that wouldn't be so easily transferable to a different medium as Dear Esther, I still question it being a "game" with it's inconsequential scoring and the way it's actually frustrating to play. It ticks enough checkboxes (scoring, gameplay mechanics, exploration, choice of strategies, etc.) to be a game by definition. The gameplay elements are there for the benefit of artistic expression, though, unlike in many other games where pieces of digital art are included as a backdrop for the gameplay. It's art first and a game second. It's also got what Ebert was looking for in trying to define art in way that would exclude most video games that he felt should be excluded. It doesn't require its viewer to be an active and agreeing collaborator before it makes its statement.
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Apr 6, 2013 13:41
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Juc66 posted:and that actually reminds me of something, someone recently approached me to make a game that is designed to be as addictive as humanly possible, which also collects data to make it even more addictive. (basically made to induce gambling addiction) There is a very fine line between pleasure and addiction, and it's one that's easy to cross. From Journey to World of Warcraft to Farmville it seems it's easy to make. It's really just all up to authors : either you make a product based on what personally fits your vision or you make a product based on what fits profitability (yes it can be both, but one always has to have precedence over the other). It's also why I tend to believe that the more you move away from the corporative world, the more risk the author is able to take with his product. -edit- Hmmm, there are probably tons of books already made on corporatism VS authorship, I'll have to see if any apply to the Game Industry (I'm certain). I'm open to recommendations. Popoto fucked around with this message at 15:27 on Apr 6, 2013 |
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Apr 6, 2013 15:24
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Paniolo posted:What kind of games are those? I'm curious what markets Amazon is interested in. Well, you won't be surprised to hear that I can't be very specific. But I would say at least that if you've looked at us in the past and decided against applying, it's worth your time to try and get an on-site interview so you can learn more. Sorry for being evasive. You know how it is in this industry. :\
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Apr 6, 2013 23:19
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DancingMachine posted:Well, you won't be surprised to hear that I can't be very specific. But I would say at least that if you've looked at us in the past and decided against applying, it's worth your time to try and get an on-site interview so you can learn more. When I did an interview with Amazon a couple of years ago they were doing kindle games. I would have been fine with that except it was my first interview in almost a decade and I didn't practice... oops :}
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Apr 6, 2013 23:40
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Spector's confining his discussion to mainstream devs, and he pretty much answers his own question in his list. Especially point 5: There's no developer with enough clout to buck the system, if the system is also funding such a game. Not even close. Nothing preventing CliffyB from deciding to make games where you hold Z to feel emotions, it's just not going to get funded by a big publisher. Jason Bore-er isn't really who Spector's talking about, at all. There's actually lots of "conceptual artist first, game designer second" people out there, going through the everyday struggle of proving that GAMES ARE ART. The problem is that only a few of them get any real press, but the ones that do get a ton. I think the trick is also having a really white-sounding name, being photogenic, pretending to be poor (while having a trust fund), boasting about living in the woods, important stuff like that.
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Apr 7, 2013 00:19
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DancingMachine posted:Well, you won't be surprised to hear that I can't be very specific. But I would say at least that if you've looked at us in the past and decided against applying, it's worth your time to try and get an on-site interview so you can learn more. Fair enough, I'm just wondering if they're looking into mobile, web or AAA/console titles. Even the most secretive companies will usually disclose that to potential applicants.
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Apr 7, 2013 00:52
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Kepa posted:I think the trick is also having a really white-sounding name, being photogenic, pretending to be poor (while having a trust fund), boasting about living in the woods, important stuff like that. edit: I can't tell if this was an intentional reference, or if it lined up that beautifully accidentally. Shalinor fucked around with this message at 01:38 on Apr 7, 2013 |
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Apr 7, 2013 01:34
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Paniolo posted:Fair enough, I'm just wondering if they're looking into mobile, web or AAA/console titles. Even the most secretive companies will usually disclose that to potential applicants. Oh, sorry, it's mobile. From the game programmer job description: "Amazon Game Studios is a highly creative, fast paced team creating must-have games for mobile devices." http://www.amazon.com/gp/jobs/214049 You'll note that job description also prefers Android/iOS experience and Unity/3D engine experience.
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Apr 7, 2013 05:07
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Shalinor posted:Now is certainly a better time to go indie than it will be in about 2 years. It isn't quite clear where the next wave will hit, but we're about due for one. We're eying the next gen consoles, if not for the next wave, for at least a more supportive environment than mobile.
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Apr 7, 2013 05:16
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Just out of curiosity, how many of you believe that developing for the next gen consoles will be profitable? To what extent? Digital-only and packaged disc thoughts welcome. Bottom-line, post retailer and royalty cut, after the dev, overhead and marketing is subtracted, profitable.
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Apr 7, 2013 16:27
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Carfax Report posted:Just out of curiosity, how many of you believe that developing for the next gen consoles will be profitable? To what extent? Digital-only and packaged disc thoughts welcome. Big studios will continue to only be profitable if they are the biggest and baddest, and it'll probably get even worse. To offset risk, we'll see increasing amounts of IAP bullshit in $60 games. We'll also see a move toward F2P, especially for anything online. So yes, it will be profitable, but only for digital ($15/20 and under) studios, mega studios, 1st party, and F2P. If you're not one of those - you've already been mostly pinched out of the industry, and the sphincter will finish shaking you off this generation. EDIT: xgalaxy posted:BTW, does anyone know if you can apply for an indie PS4 dev kit now? And what the actual cost is? Given that their architecture is x86, I'm going to lay odds that the PS4 base unit will function as a devkit. Probably the equivalent of today's debug kit - there'll probably be a big fancy devkit for AAA, but I bet that won't be what we'll use. But this is purely speculation. Shalinor fucked around with this message at 19:02 on Apr 7, 2013 |
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Apr 7, 2013 16:58
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Shalinor posted:I think there will be wave of small studio dev for digital that will be extremely profitable. The announcements coming out for the PS4 so far make it seem to be a major boon for indie developers. The biggest problem with XBLA wasn't that you couldn't make money on the system, it was that you couldn't get on the system with their limited 'slots'. And the segregation and hiding of the XNA indie games with the real marketplace. BTW, does anyone know if you can apply for an indie PS4 dev kit now? And what the actual cost is? xgalaxy fucked around with this message at 18:50 on Apr 7, 2013 |
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Apr 7, 2013 18:48
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Carfax Report posted:Just out of curiosity, how many of you believe that developing for the next gen consoles will be profitable? To what extent? Digital-only and packaged disc thoughts welcome. For the small-to-mid-tier developers, it seems like it depends heavily on the platform owners developing the right storefront. It has to solve the discoverability and price suppression problems from mobile, while still being relatively open (non-curated)? That is a pretty tall order. Something curated like Steam could work, but it's hard to imagine Sony or Microsoft striking the right balance there in curation. PSN and XBLA are not quite the right model, I don't think, although they could perhaps be adapted with a lot of work.
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Apr 7, 2013 21:38
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Carfax Report posted:Just out of curiosity, how many of you believe that developing for the next gen consoles will be profitable? To what extent? Digital-only and packaged disc thoughts welcome. I feel better about profitability working in the console space than I would if I were working in mobile. It's a risky industry all around, but at this point console gaming is the most mature market and is the least likely to see the bubble burst. If anything, potential moves to digital distribution only, and the consoles opening up to indie games, means they could be more profitable than this generation was.
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Apr 7, 2013 22:04
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On the subject of next gen disc games versus download games versus iOS games, I thought this was a great article covering Uber's costs and decisions when it came to platforms with Monday Night Combat: http://www.polygon.com/features/2013/3/19/4094472/uber-hail-mary-monday-night-combat To me one of the most interesting points was this quote: quote:Uber calculated that by making a $60 game with its means, it would only end up with $15 from each sale, while it would end up with $10 of every sale on a $15 downloadable title.
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Apr 7, 2013 22:32
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I really think downloadable titles are the way to go. Not having to deal with shipping and physical copies and storing those physical copies and knowing how many physical copies you need seems really nice. Also I feel like people are more likely to drop 15$ on a downloadable title rather than 60$. I guess 60$ games are more for those AAA titles. If you're a big company you can afford to go the physical copy route; if you're a smaller company maybe downloads are the safer bet.
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Apr 7, 2013 23:13
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Saw something familiar when looking at the news this morning:
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Apr 8, 2013 19:17
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Mega Shark posted:Saw something familiar when looking at the news this morning: I really am impressed with the amount of marketting support that Amazon has given me, it just hasn't amounted to anything of note yet. Last I heard, we were sitting at 18 units sold through them for desktop, and the mobile Amazon numbers are worse. Could be a market mismatch, could be a bunch of other things.
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Apr 8, 2013 20:02
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At the suggestion of someone earlier about looking at Bungie for jobs (it wasn't directed at me specifically) I saw they have a production assistant opening. Anyone have experience or information to provide on what a PA does in terms of video game development vs that of a video production PA? I'm curious since a lot of what they listed I'm skilled and knowledgeable in already, I just want to know if its essentially the same sort of thing as in video production where you enter as a PA and can work your way up that way or not.
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Apr 8, 2013 20:12
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It would be an excellent entry point if your career goal was to be a producer. I don't know much about what a PA does in film but in games it's a lot of scheduling meetings and taking notes.
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Apr 9, 2013 05:30
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Just to reiterate how drat fickle, crazy, and incestuous this industry is, I ran into a guy at a bar more or less at random during GDC, exchanged quick pleasantries, and then after looking me up he called me for a job interview on monday. Sometimes I feel like sending resumes to companies where you don't know anyone is done just to keep up appearances.
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Apr 10, 2013 01:27
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Hey y'all. Haven't been in this thread for a good while. Been checking craigslist for the past few months and I ain't seen shite for QA jobs. Well except for the odd 2K posting, but gently caress those guys. Was just wondering if any of you guys might know any openings by chance in the L.A. area?
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Apr 10, 2013 02:29
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Fear not people in QA, the dark days of your dicipline are now OVER! *thundercrack* http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/TulayTetikerMcNally/20130409/190152/Part_1_The_End_of_the_Dark_Ages_for_QA_in_game_development.php edit: also I'm not any help for you, all the guys I knew in california got layed off when disney closed lucas. Juc66 fucked around with this message at 02:54 on Apr 10, 2013 |
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Apr 10, 2013 02:50
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Pretty much.  I wish I could help but yeah all of my friends were in LArts. I've decided to take the risky route and not look for a job and spend the next three or 4 months building the 3D portfolio.Having a job and trying to do the portfolio just doesn't work. Also have you tried EA? Activsion? Treyarch? Santa Monica Studios? Those are off the top of my head that are in LA.
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Apr 10, 2013 03:09
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Shindragon posted:Having a job and trying to do the portfolio just doesn't work. Good god, yes. I have been trying to do this for the past year and it's just not happening with all the overtime.
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Apr 10, 2013 03:50
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GetWellGamers posted:Sometimes I feel like sending resumes to companies where you don't know anyone is done just to keep up appearances. Maybe it's just done so the unemployed can have a paper trail to show as they collect their unemployment insurance between jobs.
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Apr 10, 2013 03:59
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cgeq posted:Maybe it's just done so the unemployed can have a paper trail to show as they collect their unemployment insurance between jobs. Well, this is making me feel depressed. I have been sending out applications to several places for over a month and the traffic to my website has remained at almost zero, which means that most people haven't even bothered to check out my reel.
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Apr 10, 2013 04:14
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Shindragon posted:Pretty much. EA's too far for me without a car, Activision hasn't posted anything for a while, Treyarch from what I understand is at death's door and laid off like 50 people, and if you're referring to Sony Santa Monica Studios, well...let's just say there's a bit of bad blood involved in that particular situation.
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Apr 10, 2013 04:20
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There's always Riot games as well. Don't forget Insomniac Games and Naughty Dog. edit::Also god drat, you're in LA without a car? Buckwheat Sings fucked around with this message at 04:49 on Apr 10, 2013 |
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Apr 10, 2013 04:45
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Chernabog posted:Well, this is making me feel depressed. Are you writing good cover letters? The only companies that have ever given me an interview were over applications with really good cover letters or referrals. I mean like I combed over those things four times over at least or I was very creative with the format.
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Apr 10, 2013 05:15
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Buckwheat Sings posted:There's always Riot games as well. Don't forget Insomniac Games and Naughty Dog. Yeah, sadly. I mean, I had one, but sold it a while back cause of one too many mechanical problems. After which, work at my current job slowed down substantially, so that put the brakes (no pun intended) on any plans to get a new one. I applied to Insomniac back in December and spoke to the QA manager who said that I was qualified but applied too late, though also said that I would supposedly be the first to get a call back once the next hiring period shows up. Dunno how confident to feel about that. Mr Interweb fucked around with this message at 05:20 on Apr 10, 2013 |
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Apr 10, 2013 05:18
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Riot's in Santa Monica and they're hiring like 10-20 new people a week. They have training classes for their new employees to get good at LoL.4
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Apr 10, 2013 05:32
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Mr Interweb posted:Treyarch from what I understand is at death's door and laid off like 50 people, What? No, they just finished a game, they laid off the temp staff.
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Apr 10, 2013 05:56
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