China Megathread - Their navy can be taken seriously or taken littorally

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Arglebargle III: Feb 21, 2006

Bloodnose posted:

There's a strike going on at the biggest port in Hong Kong, with dockworkers saying they haven't gotten a pay rise in ten years and currently get paid less than they did in 1995

Jesus, their nominal wages are actually lower than in 1995? That's horrible.

# ? Apr 3, 2013 05:22

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# ? May 24, 2024 13:29

Deep State of Mind: Jul 30, 2006; "It was a busy day. I do not remember it all. In the morning, I thought I had lost my wallet. Then we went swimming and either overthrew a government or started a pro-American radio station. I can't really remember."; Fun Shoe

The source is the dockworkers themselves, but I find it completely believable.

And this is not a unique situation in Hong Kong. A lot of companies cut pay after the Asian Financial Crisis in 97 and/or SARS in 2003. 30% pay cuts were not unheard of. Then after the economy recovered, the money never came back. Annual raises between 3% and 5% are common in HK.

# ? Apr 3, 2013 05:49

Arglebargle III: Feb 21, 2006

What does it look like in inflation-adjusted HK$?

# ? Apr 3, 2013 06:11

Deep State of Mind: Jul 30, 2006; "It was a busy day. I do not remember it all. In the morning, I thought I had lost my wallet. Then we went swimming and either overthrew a government or started a pro-American radio station. I can't really remember."; Fun Shoe

Not good. Very very very bad, in fact. More than 30% CPI inflation in the last two years. Much much worse on specific food items.

If you want specifics, ask a math guy. :frogc00l:

# ? Apr 3, 2013 06:19

Arglebargle III: Feb 21, 2006

Here's a chart of year-on-year CPI change, I don't see 30% anywhere or even the 16% that this site says is the maximum, it must have been over a shorter period of time and smoothed out of the year-on-year measure. This from the HK government's census and statistics office so I don't know how much you trust them.

My immediate thoughts on looking at this are:

1. What the poo poo happened in 1998?

2. I don't see the 30% you mentioned.

3. That curve looks an awful lot like the one you posted above.

The mean inflation over the period is 1.8% per year, which if you do a simple calculation on a spreadsheet makes their 1996 salary 1,150 into 1,557 in today's HK$. So they have lost $242 in modern HK$ in wages, or 15.5%. A big pay cut but not quite the disaster a 30% yearly inflation would indicate.

# ? Apr 3, 2013 09:02

VideoTapir: Oct 18, 2005; He'll tire eventually.

1997 Asian Financial Crisis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1997_Asian_financial_crisis#Hong_Kong

quote:

Stock markets became more and more volatile; between 20 October and 23 October the Hang Seng Index dropped 23%. The Hong Kong Monetary Authority then promised to protect the currency. On 15 August 1998, it raised overnight interest rates from 8% to 23%, and at one point to 500%.[citation needed] The HKMA had recognized that speculators were taking advantage of the city's unique currency-board system, in which overnight rates automatically increase in proportion to large net sales of the local currency. The rate hike, however, increased downward pressure on the stock market, allowing speculators to profit by short selling shares. The HKMA started buying component shares of the Hang Seng Index in mid-August.

# ? Apr 3, 2013 09:26

Arglebargle III: Feb 21, 2006

Hm. It would be interesting to see the average trend line from 1980-1996 or so to see where inflation "should" be in relation.

# ? Apr 3, 2013 09:54

Deep State of Mind: Jul 30, 2006; "It was a busy day. I do not remember it all. In the morning, I thought I had lost my wallet. Then we went swimming and either overthrew a government or started a pro-American radio station. I can't really remember."; Fun Shoe

Arglebargle III posted:

Here's a chart of year-on-year CPI change, I don't see 30% anywhere or even the 16% that this site says is the maximum, it must have been over a shorter period of time and smoothed out of the year-on-year measure. This from the HK government's census and statistics office so I don't know how much you trust them.

My immediate thoughts on looking at this are:

1. What the poo poo happened in 1998?

2. I don't see the 30% you mentioned.

3. That curve looks an awful lot like the one you posted above.

The mean inflation over the period is 1.8% per year, which if you do a simple calculation on a spreadsheet makes their 1996 salary 1,150 into 1,557 in today's HK$. So they have lost $242 in modern HK$ in wages, or 15.5%. A big pay cut but not quite the disaster a 30% yearly inflation would indicate.

My bad. I got it from the SCMP.

SCMP posted:

An associate professor of economics at Chinese University, Terence Chong Tai-leung, estimated the inflation rate for the decade was about 30 per cent.

But while inflation takes into account a range of goods, he believed the cost of food had increased a lot more.

Statistics from the census department supported his views.

The average retail price for 1kg of top-grade chicken was HK$35.81 in 2001 but had shot up to HK$83.4 in 2011.

The price for 1kg of hung sam yu, or golden thread, a common type of fish, also soared, from HK$40.35 to HK$74.39, while a kilogram of white cabbage rose from HK$9.61 to HK$15.61.

That was for the whole decade, not the last two years. And it's from "some loving guy" instead of the CPI. Still, they have real average retail prices there to let you see how hosed up the situation is.

edit:

I'll just share the whole article because it's pertinent to the discussion:

"Hongkongers' median income grew only 10pc in last decade posted:

Hongkongers' median pay rose by only about 10 per cent between 2001 and 2011, despite property prices going through the roof and food prices climbing steadily.

According to the Census and Statistics Department, the 2001 median monthly income for men was HK$12,000.

But a decade later it was HK$13,000 - a rise of just 8.3 per cent, and that does not take inflation into account. Women's incomes went up 10 per cent, from HK$10,000 to HK$11,000.

Even more surprising is that the median income for men and women aged 15 to 24 remained unchanged over the 10 years at HK$8,000. The figure also remained unchanged for women aged between 25 and 34, standing at HK$12,000.

Labour Party chairman and lawmaker Lee Cheuk-yan was appalled by the findings.

Then and now

He said: "This is shocking and miserable. Hongkongers' lives have not improved in a decade and have even turned worse. When the economy is prosperous, bosses offer pay rises of only 2 to 3 per cent.

"But when the economy was not good, like during the Sars crisis, bosses cut their employees' pay by 20 to 30 per cent."

The slow growth in median income was evidence that the wealth gap was still wide, he said.

The gap, measured by the Gini coefficient, hit a record high of 0.537 in 2011.

The index works on a scale from 0 to 1, with a higher score indicating greater income inequality.

Lee urged Chief Executive Leung Chun-ying to introduce standard working hours and offer more allowances to the poor when he delivers his first policy address on Wednesday.

An associate professor of economics at Chinese University, Terence Chong Tai-leung, estimated the inflation rate for the decade was about 30 per cent.

But while inflation takes into account a range of goods, he believed the cost of food had increased a lot more.

Statistics from the census department supported his views.

The average retail price for 1kg of top-grade chicken was HK$35.81 in 2001 but had shot up to HK$83.4 in 2011.

The price for 1kg of hung sam yu, or golden thread, a common type of fish, also soared, from HK$40.35 to HK$74.39, while a kilogram of white cabbage rose from HK$9.61 to HK$15.61.

Dixon Sing Ming, associate professor of social science at the University of Science and Technology, said the sharp increase in food prices could be attributed to the lack of competition in the supermarket sector.

As rents skyrocket, shops are forced to sell their products at a higher price, he added.

Lee asked: "Why can't the government introduce a form of tax like the new BSD [buyer's stamp duty] on landlords who always increase the rents?"

The average price of private housing - depending on the size and location of the residence - has almost quadrupled in some cases.

The average per square metre price for a property measuring between 100 and 160 square metres in Kowloon went up 3.76 times over the 10 years to HK$154,327. A property of the same size on Hong Kong Island went up 2.95 times to an average of HK$167,939 per square metre.

The figure was HK$34,812 for a New Territories property in 2001, which increased to HK$73,228 in 2011.

Sing urged the government to build more houses under the Home Ownership Scheme so that the middle-class, who cannot afford private housing, can have a place to live.

Lee noted that 10 years ago, Hongkongers spent 30 per cent of their monthly income on paying their mortgage, but for many it now accounts for half their salary.

"Hong Kong people just don't have much money left after paying for the mortgage and food," Lee said.

Deep State of Mind fucked around with this message at 10:03 on Apr 3, 2013

# ? Apr 3, 2013 09:59

Arglebargle III: Feb 21, 2006

Ah, yeah. Because inflation is compounded the figure will increase a lot as you take a longer time. For the same numbers I used in my calculation of 1.8% mean yearly inflation from 1996 to 2013, you actually get a 35% difference in price level over that 17 year period. The devil is in the details here. 30% inflation makes it sound like the sky is falling, you need to see the "over a decade" part to realize it's not even a big deal.

Real wages falling by 15% is still pretty bad though. I can sympathize. :suicide:

Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 13:36 on Apr 3, 2013

# ? Apr 3, 2013 13:27

Arglebargle III: Feb 21, 2006

There's a good special report from The Economist about China's internet. If you don't live in China, the articles in the special report cover just about everything you need to know to understand the Chinese internet environment and how it came about. It's a good base of knowledge. If you live in China and use the Chinese internet a lot of this may not be news to you, but there's a lot of numbers and specifics you probably didn't know.

Link here. You can find the rest of the special report in links on the right margin of the article. It's designed to be read in order. Happy tomb-sweeping festival!

Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 06:01 on Apr 5, 2013

# ? Apr 5, 2013 05:59

Deep State of Mind: Jul 30, 2006; "It was a busy day. I do not remember it all. In the morning, I thought I had lost my wallet. Then we went swimming and either overthrew a government or started a pro-American radio station. I can't really remember."; Fun Shoe

Continuing on with the discussion about this dockworkers strike, there's something about Hong Kong's organized labor that I don't full understand. This article is talking about how the FTU, the Federation of Trade Unions, has not been supporting the strikers, allegedly because they have ties to the contractors who hire the stevedores. At the same time, the strike is heavily supported by the Confederation of Trade Unions who always have a guy hanging out with the strikers to yell things at the media. I just turned on Now TV's live stream this weekend and actually caught Lee Cheuk-yan, a Democratic Party LegCo member and General Secretary of the Confderation of Trade Unions, giving an angry speech to the media in English. What luck that I got an easy-to-understand breakdown of their complaints from him there.

The confusing part is this Federation of Trade Unions versus Confederation of Trade Unions. Those names are uncomfortably similar in English and only a little bit more different in Chinese. I think Caberham can offer a little more insight into the reality of the situation here. It looks like the FTU is a group closely tied to Beijing, going back to 1949 because, as an organized labor group, they're naturally inclined to be communist.

...but that doesn't really follow because the communists in China couldn't give a gently caress about organized labor and actually seem to break up strikes when they happen in the mainland, so what gives?

The CTU looks like it's a more actually leftist group that plucks for workers' rights. Or at least that's how they're looking in light of this stevedores issue. But which one of the groups actually represents most organized laborers in Hong Kong?

In other news, there is an awesome cyberpunk proposal to create an island super-prison out of reclaimed land near Lantau Island. The idea is to close down all of Hong Kong's other prisons to make room for more homes by moving all prisoners to this prison colony island where they just have to fight for the rest of their lives.

# ? Apr 5, 2013 07:29

GuestBob: Nov 27, 2005

Bloodnose posted:

The idea is to close down all of Hong Kong's other prisons to make room for more homes by moving all prisoners to this prison colony island where they just have to fight for the rest of their lives.

Hong Kong should outsource its prisons to the mainland.

If there's one thing that HKers seem to care more about than protecting their liberties against the ravages of Beijing it's house prices - I am sure that any reduction in the latter would excuse a proportional reduction in the former.

# ? Apr 5, 2013 08:19

Arglebargle III: Feb 21, 2006

Bloodnose posted:

...but that doesn't really follow because the communists in China couldn't give a gently caress about organized labor and actually seem to break up strikes when they happen in the mainland, so what gives?

Looks like somebody hasn't read his Lenin! Trade unions are the enemy of communism. I know, crazy, but that's one of the logical underpinnings of Leninism. Trade unions mollify the working classes sufficiently that communism will be delayed and the communist party has to educate the people and instill revolutionary consciousness in them. Part of that revolutionary consciousness involves not being a part of trade unionism, which is banned just in case anyone gets the wrong idea. Otherwise the workers might be content with capitalism and we can't have that now can we?

Marxism is about the natural transition from feudal economy to capitalist economy to communist economy, Leninism Stalinism and Maoism are all about forcing the issue.

# ? Apr 5, 2013 08:43

got any sevens: Feb 9, 2013; by Cyrano4747

Bloodnose posted:

In other news, there is an awesome cyberpunk proposal to create an island super-prison out of reclaimed land near Lantau Island. The idea is to close down all of Hong Kong's other prisons to make room for more homes by moving all prisoners to this prison colony island where they just have to fight for the rest of their lives.

You are the Duke of Hong Kong, A#1!

# ? Apr 5, 2013 08:49

Deep State of Mind: Jul 30, 2006; "It was a busy day. I do not remember it all. In the morning, I thought I had lost my wallet. Then we went swimming and either overthrew a government or started a pro-American radio station. I can't really remember."; Fun Shoe

Arglebargle III posted:

Looks like somebody hasn't read his Lenin! Trade unions are the enemy of communism. I know, crazy, but that's one of the logical underpinnings of Leninism. Trade unions mollify the working classes sufficiently that communism will be delayed and the communist party has to educate the people and instill revolutionary consciousness in them. Part of that revolutionary consciousness involves not being a part of trade unionism, which is banned just in case anyone gets the wrong idea. Otherwise the workers might be content with capitalism and we can't have that now can we?

Marxism is about the natural transition from feudal economy to capitalist economy to communist economy, Leninism Stalinism and Maoism are all about forcing the issue.

No I am familiar with that, and I know there are no unions on the mainland or in any communist countries. At the same time, I know that the FTU has been close to the Communist Party since the days when Mao was in charge. What I'm trying to understand is how they have kept the relationship through the massive changes in the mainland, and what their current relationship to organized labor in Hong Kong is.

# ? Apr 5, 2013 09:02

vanity slug: Jul 20, 2010

Arglebargle III posted:

Looks like somebody hasn't read his Lenin! Trade unions are the enemy of communism. I know, crazy, but that's one of the logical underpinnings of Leninism. Trade unions mollify the working classes sufficiently that communism will be delayed and the communist party has to educate the people and instill revolutionary consciousness in them. Part of that revolutionary consciousness involves not being a part of trade unionism, which is banned just in case anyone gets the wrong idea. Otherwise the workers might be content with capitalism and we can't have that now can we?

That's a pretty simplistic view of Leninism. His opposition to trade unionism (not trade unions) was because of their focus only on labour issues, not political ones. There's a reason Communist Parties over the world started forming their own trade unions, why would they do that if they opposed them so much?

The Soviet Union still had trade unions until the very end. Sure, they were tools of the Party, but they were still there. Formally there's still the All-China Federation of Trade Unions but that's only a trade union in name.

I'll fire off a message to some friends who are involved in trade unions in Hong Kong, maybe they can explain.

# ? Apr 5, 2013 09:19

Arglebargle III: Feb 21, 2006

Well it's not a complete view of Leninism, obviously. That would have taken longer to post.

# ? Apr 5, 2013 09:23

GuestBob: Nov 27, 2005

Arglebargle III posted:

Well it's not a complete view of Leninism, obviously. That would have taken longer to post.

I think that Fidel Castro sums it up pretty succinctly in one of his speeches.

GuestBob fucked around with this message at 10:06 on Apr 5, 2013

# ? Apr 5, 2013 09:41

Arglebargle III: Feb 21, 2006

Jeoh posted:

That's a pretty simplistic view of Leninism. His opposition to trade unionism (not trade unions) was because of their focus only on labour issues, not political ones. There's a reason Communist Parties over the world started forming their own trade unions, why would they do that if they opposed them so much?

The Soviet Union still had trade unions until the very end. Sure, they were tools of the Party, but they were still there. Formally there's still the All-China Federation of Trade Unions but that's only a trade union in name.

The reason communist parties all over the world starting their own trade unions is that they're an obvious vehicle for communist ideology and the early 20th century Communists were masters of infiltration and political organization. No one ever said the actions of Leninists were internally consistent with Leninism. The Soviet Union had trade unions and you can be sure that if they agitated against communist party bosses or tried to organize real reform in any way they would be stomped on, hard. The same thing is true in China.

The history of friction between the Comintern and established Communist governments is pretty interesting. The Soviet Union's dominance of the Comintern was hardly welcomed by other members, and the split between rhetoric and behavior widened into a gulf very rapidly.

# ? Apr 5, 2013 10:01

GuestBob: Nov 27, 2005

Cross posting from the other place:

I was rooting around on the BBC website and found this:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/series/china

If you can speak Chinese this might be good practice I suppose.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/series/tcc

# ? Apr 6, 2013 08:25

Deep State of Mind: Jul 30, 2006; "It was a busy day. I do not remember it all. In the morning, I thought I had lost my wallet. Then we went swimming and either overthrew a government or started a pro-American radio station. I can't really remember."; Fun Shoe

There was a mine collapse in Tibet. A lot of people died. Pretty sad. But here's something from an AFP article about it and, tangentially, race relations in China:

AFP posted:

The 83 workers killed in the disaster were almost all members of the Han ethnic majority and from across the country, illustrating how minorities rarely see the fruits of underground wealth - not even dangerous jobs.

I get what they're saying, of course. But I find this really funny. It's so unfair that Tibetans can't go die in the mines! :china:

In Hong Kong news, Alex Lo wrote an editorial about young people in Hong Kong. Alex Lo is not a very good writer, but here's something that struck a chord with me:

Alex Lo posted:

Instead of starting a business in a burst of entrepreneurial creativity � la Steve Jobs or Mark Zuckerberg, many young people either want to join big corporations or the government on a fast track to senior management - and/or protest for democracy. What they all have in common is that they take no risk. Our young democracy fighters may fantasise about June 4, but no PLA tanks will ever run over them.

This is pretty much it. Hong Kong has this cyberpunk culture where everyone aspires to be a part of the machine: either working for an evil corporation, the milquetoast government, or some combination of the two. I'm not sure when the entrepreneurial spirit of Hong Kong died, but it's been a while. The best and brightest go into finance or civil service and that's the end of them.

Then we get the next paragraph that shows how Alex Lo doesn't really know what he's talking about :

Alex Lo posted:

Young man and woman, take real risks! Travel the world, read widely, strike out on your own, start a business (in another city with low rents). Then come back and fight for democracy.

The point of the article was that young people should stop fighting for democracy, stop expecting things of the government, and take risks and start businesses instead. It kind of misses the point about why they don't do that, or about why democracy would make it more likely for them to be entrepreneurs than armchair freedom fighters. His parenthetical joke about rents there has the real answer, and it's what his article should have been. It's another symptom of the cyberpunk nightmare that keeps things pretty static here.

# ? Apr 8, 2013 06:32

WarpedNaba: Feb 8, 2012; Being social makes me swell!

quote:

Young man and woman, take real risks! Travel the world, read widely, strike out on your own, start a business (in another city with low rents), gently caress that up. Then come back and ~~fight for democracy~~ live the rest of your existence mired in crippling debt.

Ftfy

# ? Apr 8, 2013 07:15

Arglebargle III: Feb 21, 2006

Mobility doesn't always result in failure.

# ? Apr 8, 2013 08:59

VideoTapir: Oct 18, 2005; He'll tire eventually.

Holding up successful entreprenuers as examples to beat everyone over the head with over their failure to become a billionaire ignores the millions of unsuccessful entreprenuers. Even if you reject the idea that such success is the result of the individual's inherent Randian superiority (or God's grace, whatever), as this guy does, and suggest that anyone can make it big, it is literally not possible for everyone in his intended audience to do so, there is only so much room at the top; AND it is literally not possible for people like Jobs or Zuckerberg to become so wealthy without people seeking places within their big corporations.

This is stupid in several dimensions.

# ? Apr 8, 2013 10:01

got any sevens: Feb 9, 2013; by Cyrano4747

"Fighting for democracy now doesnt work, so...get a job! Then fight for democracy!" ...what?

# ? Apr 8, 2013 10:05

Oracle: Oct 9, 2004

quote:

The idea is to close down all of Hong Kong's other prisons to make room for more homes by moving all prisoners to this prison colony island where they just have to fight for the rest of their lives.

I think I saw this in a movie once...

# ? Apr 8, 2013 20:51

Deceitful Penguin: Feb 16, 2011

Just curious, because our media has been mentioning it all the time, but is there any mention in China about the Free Trade Agreement between Iceland and China? It is the first time a Free Trade agreement has been made between China and a W-European nation and our Prime Minister and her wife are going over for a visit in a wekk, so I've been curious about it.

# ? Apr 9, 2013 00:48

Deep State of Mind: Jul 30, 2006; "It was a busy day. I do not remember it all. In the morning, I thought I had lost my wallet. Then we went swimming and either overthrew a government or started a pro-American radio station. I can't really remember."; Fun Shoe

I think more people live in my apartment building than in Iceland. Small, insignificant country joke. But seriously folks, I haven't heard anything about that.

Who wants to talk about the horrible Apple Daily? It's like the Fox News of Hong Kong. Really horrible punditry that everyone watches. It's anti-Beijing at least, but still very obnoxious. Anyway, it turns out the finance columnist of the Apple Daily was making illegal trades, using his column to influence the market in his favor. Now he's been fined HK$500,000 for it.

In baby formula news, a police raid seized HK$1 million worth of the stuff. Yes they have shut shut down a syndicate and arrested two masterminds... who smuggle baby formula. It's insane.

Here's a crazy thing that happened in Kowloon City:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4XkQ1R2oTQ

SCMP posted:

Three knives, nunchuks and masks were found in the car. He was arrested for furious driving and possession of offensive and prohibited weapons.

A traffic police officer had earlier tried to stop the driver - a plump man apparently aged between 20 and 30, and wearing a cap - after spotting him run two red lights at Kowloon City Road and Pau Chung Street.

And then [url=http://www.scmp.com/news/china/article/1210058/dark-secrets-female-labour-camp-revealed]there's an article about horrible conditions in a Chinese women's prison. But I just thought their uniforms were funny:

They get their names stenciled in such a pretty font :3:

# ? Apr 9, 2013 05:45

GuestBob: Nov 27, 2005

Deceitful Penguin posted:

Just curious, because our media has been mentioning it all the time, but is there any mention in China about the Free Trade Agreement between Iceland and China? It is the first time a Free Trade agreement has been made between China and a W-European nation and our Prime Minister and her wife are going over for a visit in a wekk, so I've been curious about it.

Didn't Iceland's government poo poo on some Chinese investors at some point in the recent past? I seem to remember that someone was preventing from buying something when your economy went tits up.

# ? Apr 9, 2013 07:39

caberham: Mar 18, 2009; by Smythe; Grimey Drawer

Bloodnose posted:

Who wants to talk about the horrible Apple Daily? It's like the Fox News of Hong Kong. Really horrible punditry that everyone watches. It's anti-Beijing at least, but still very obnoxious.

Not just Hong Kong but Taiwan too :eng101:

Taiwan may function like another country but it's weird that its media is run mostly be Hongers. TVB, Next Media & Apple (Both run by Jimmy Lai) all have a major presence in Taiwan's media. Maybe that's why Taiwan's TV and journalism is so sensationalist.

Jimmy Lai, oh Jimmy, he's a total libertarian who believes in the capitalist dream that went from rags to riches. If I remember correctly, he has a bronze statue of Hayek and Freidman. Before being in the media business, he owns Giordano (think Chinese Old Navy) and was quite wealthy selling clothes. A major supporter during 89, he was forced to sell his shares and kicked out of the Chinese business market. So he got really bitter and started a media company. News in Hong Kong use to be a bit tame back in the day before Apple Daily came along. It was sensationalist crap but actually increased overall readership in Hong Kong and started a price war on newspapers. Then he started giving away free newspapers in the subways and lost millions of dollars on the first 2 years because "people should have the right to information UNLIKE CHINA :china:

". Nowadays, he recuperated costs and is doing well. He can always fall back on：

Some classic videos from next media.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfONM0hRu7E

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2BFtfvy_Eo

and of course:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGfVB9kA5QQ

# ? Apr 9, 2013 10:33

Deceitful Penguin: Feb 16, 2011

Bloodnose posted:

I think more people live in my apartment building than in Iceland. Small, insignificant country joke. But seriously folks, I haven't heard anything about that.

Not even on the Lesbian head of state end? Guess China has finally become cool on the LGBTQ end, eh?

GuestBob posted:

Didn't Iceland's government poo poo on some Chinese investors at some point in the recent past? I seem to remember that someone was preventing from buying something when your economy went tits up.

Huang Nubo of the Zhongkun Investment Group wanted to buy up a lot of land for turning into a high-class golf course/hotel thing, pretty par for the course considering Chinese investments all over, but some of our politicians were deeply suspicious of his motives and others were hugely loving racist. There was also the small problem of foreigners not being allowed to own land and whatnot. Eventually they turned him down from buying like 0.4% of the entire country, even if it was mostly just half-desert.

Alongside this was probably the most idiotic press coverage I have ever seen in my life where people were talking about dem durned Chinese opening ports on land several hundred klicks away from the sea, the Chinese coming and driving out all the local business around (what business? There isn't any!) and just generic racist bile, all kinds of good stuff. Now there's talk he's gonna rent it from the town, which has been buying up the land, but I haven't heard anything recent about it.

Went to an open lecture his lawyer held about the whole thing, explained things fairly well. In the Q&A afterwards someone said, and I quote: "You have to understand you can't trust the Chinese, they're a cunning people". :psyduck:

Yea, because we can totally trust the bloody yanks or Canadians buying up our water right? Fecking racist idiots.

# ? Apr 9, 2013 15:59

Throatwarbler: Nov 17, 2008; by vyelkin

Well the publicised aspects of his investment plan - build a golf course and resort on land that seems to be windswept tundra in the summer and buried under a lot of snow the rest of the year, do seem pretty implausible on the face of it. So it's sort of understandable that people might think he had other motives.

Of course these people don't understand China and think it's some kind of well run country where capital is allocated to those best able to manage it instead of just politically connected cronies. So a much more plausible and mundane explanation to most Chinese people is that the guy is either a) just a regular well connected fixer who's going to use the resort project as a front to either bilk money out of the government/investors, or launder the proceeds of corruption, or something in that vein, or b) a well connected half baked lunatic who doesn't care whether his crazy projects make money or not, because it's not his money so who gives a poo poo.

# ? Apr 9, 2013 16:17

Deceitful Penguin: Feb 16, 2011

Throatwarbler posted:

Well the publicised aspects of his investment plan - build a golf course and resort on land that seems to be windswept tundra in the summer and buried under a lot of snow the rest of the year, do seem pretty implausible on the face of it. So it's sort of understandable that people might think he had other motives.

Of course these people don't understand China and think it's some kind of well run country where capital is allocated to those best able to manage it instead of just politically connected cronies. So a much more plausible and mundane explanation to most Chinese people is that the guy is either a) just a regular well connected fixer who's going to use the resort project as a front to either bilk money out of the government/investors, or launder the proceeds of corruption, or something in that vein, or b) a well connected half baked lunatic who doesn't care whether his crazy projects make money or not, because it's not his money so who gives a poo poo.

Yea, I tried talking to people about the ghost cities and all the failed ventures but it's that aspect of paranoia that makes you feel important that was running rampant: "Surely he can't be doing it just because he wants to / to launder money / whatever, there has to be some deeper reason that makes me feel like our lovely country matters!"

And the peeps are also just mega racist. "Inscrutable orientals" poo poo was all over. Lost a lot of respect for some people I otherwise quite liked. And the fact that a lot of them felt they knew better than I was loving insulting. "Sure Deceitful Penguin, you may have been studying this for the last year or so and read up on it long before that but I, chucklefuck regular know far better how poo poo is".

# ? Apr 9, 2013 16:51

Baronjutter: Dec 31, 2007; "Tiny Trains"

I think it's far more likely that the all-powerful and united party is building ghost cities and insane (to us short sighted non-celestials) projects because they know something. Climate change preparations, 2012, one world government, FEMA, or just another one of China's devilish and unstoppable plots to take over the world are FAR more likely than corruption and cronyism.

I see this a lot in very right-wing circles. "China knows how to get things done" "China's united leadership lets them make successful long term plans while we bicker and stagnate" "China has... plans". It's this mix of admiration and fear. China is going to conquer the world because it has strong leaders while the west will fall because we waste time on things like gay-rights or feminism or basic workplace safety standards. They've also bought into the Chinese government's facade of a united all-known leadership. Everything they do is because of some grand world-domination plan, they are a united hive mind we could never understand.

It's always weird hearing these extreme-right libertarians go on and on about how great both China and Dubai are. God they love Dubai too. They seem to judge the success of a society by how many lovely skyscrapers they build per month.

# ? Apr 9, 2013 17:45

Franks Happy Place: Mar 15, 2011; It is by weed alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the dank of Sapho that thoughts acquire speed, the lips acquire stains, stains become a warning. It is by weed alone I set my mind in motion.

Baronjutter posted:

They seem to judge the success of a society by how many lovely skyscrapers they build per month.

Too much Atlas Shrugged is bad for a child's brain development.

# ? Apr 9, 2013 17:53

Baronjutter: Dec 31, 2007; "Tiny Trains"

Is it totally insane for libertarians to worship dictatorships though? They're always railing against government and demanding total freedom, but it seems in their hearts they want to become a dictator or be run by a dictator so long as the dictator acts like a CEO rather than a democratically elected leader. They go on and on about "freedom" but they seem to actually just want to pull out all the stops so a chinese-style system of "strong leadership" can be implemented and the "strong leadership" doesn't need to worry about workers-rights getting in the way of more skyscrapers. Also clearly they'd be party elite due to their natural talents and not an oppressed worker pulling cables through a dangerous skyscraper construction site.

Some of them will outright say they look forward to the inevitable chinese take-over because we'll deserve it and they'll sweep away all the anti-freedom labour laws and finally "get things done".

Baronjutter fucked around with this message at 18:16 on Apr 9, 2013

# ? Apr 9, 2013 18:14

Mc Do Well: Aug 2, 2008; by FactsAreUseless

Libertarians are better understood as anarchocapitalists. While Anarchists recognize might is right, ancaps think the almighty dollar would produce an ecology inspired equilibrium if all institutions were destroyed (which is incredibly childish and attributes real, immutable value to currency)

They share the naive belief that in the free-for-all / true free market their personal ideals will come out on top. There's a big 'everything would be perfect if everyone did what I told them.'

# ? Apr 9, 2013 18:33

Fangz: Jul 5, 2007; Oh I see! This must be the Bad Opinion Zone!

Eh... Libertarians worshipping China makes some sense. In some senses and some areas China is pretty much an anarchy, and the central government oversight can be very weak.

# ? Apr 9, 2013 19:21

Ardennes: May 12, 2002

I see it as less they want the government gone, but that they are attracted to money and China and Dubai at least to have a ton of money to spent on "cool poo poo" like skyscrapers.

If a government such as China makes it "easy" for them to make money then it is a good government, if it doesn't like, then it is a bad government.

I also suspect the "fear" part is heavily inspired by racism, and of course those "Chinese" want to go after the white man. They admire Chinese's brutal capitalism but fear them not being white.

# ? Apr 9, 2013 19:34

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# ? May 24, 2024 13:29

WarpedNaba: Feb 8, 2012; Being social makes me swell!

The whole widespread subjugation of Africans might also be a-tuggin' at their throbbing sino-erections.

# ? Apr 10, 2013 04:27

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > China Megathread - Their navy can be taken seriously or taken littorally

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