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Shumagorath posted:DOTA 2 isn't as easy to grief as I thought. I tried to get my team mad at me by just being bad but one of them thought I was new to games and pleaded with the other team not to kill me. Does that count? Pick Spectre and then say "Mid or feed". e: And then build a Vanguard and a Sange & Yasha.
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Apr 11, 2013 02:31
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AXE COP posted:People have been banned for using the 'select random hero' button that is built into the game. If you're referring to that old screenshot story, that's still because the person was going random in ranked and doing stupid builds that dragged his teams down.  Dreggon posted:But you aren't allowed to attack anything, because the person who does physical damage at range wants to do that, so that he gets all the gold for himself. Try playing with friends. Alternatively, an AD who literally doesn't want you to attack people is dumb as gently caress and should probably be ignored. Yardbomb fucked around with this message at 03:33 on Apr 11, 2013 |
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Apr 11, 2013 03:19
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Picking anything but the specific role that you're 'assigned' in League of Legends will definitely have people raging at you. These are not roles that are assigned by the game, however - they're just what the playerbase expects you to do. This generally seems to go in the following categories. There are three lanes - top, middle, and bottom - and a neutral area in the jungle. All of these contain things you kill to get money. 1. The top lane is usually for one person per team who do physical damage in melee range. 2. The middle lane is usually for one person per team who do magical damage at range. 3. The jungle is for... I don't even know anymore. 4. The bottom lane is for two people per team - one who does physical damage at range ("attack damage carry" or "AD carry" as they are known, because they 'carry' your team) and another person whose only job is to support (the role is called "support) by making the person playing the AD carry not suck, usually by healing them, increasing their damage, etc. This is generally the support's only role. There are usually very specific niches for each character that you can play. Is it ranged and does high amounts of physical damage? You are going in the bottom lane. Does it do physical damage in melee range? You are going in the top lane. Magical damage? Middle lane. Serve no purpose but to make other people have fun? Bottom lane - but you aren't allowed to attack anything, because the person who does physical damage at range wants to do that, so that he gets all the gold for himself. It's like being someone's fucktoy for 30 minutes. And so, for my incredible grief of amazing proportions, I - get this - picked a person who did magical damage, and went to the bottom lane! What a crazy wacky twist! Oh man, I hope I didn't blow your brain right out of your head! I don't know how to play any other character because I am not very good at the game, so I will invariably pick this one character when the game begins. A common tactic of other players is to immediately state a lane in chat and get extremely passive-aggressive if anybody else picks a character that is 'supposed' to go in that lane. I ignore this, and pick my character anyway. It doesn't matter to me what lane I go in, but it seems to mean life or death to everyone else. I don't do that badly. Yes, that's it. That's the 'grief'. It's almost as fun doing it as it is reading about it.
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Apr 11, 2013 03:22
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The self-grief begins when you install LoL and ends when you get perma-banned and lose your $900 worth of pixels.
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Apr 11, 2013 03:31
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Dreggon posted:And so, for my incredible grief of amazing proportions, I - get this - picked a person who did magical damage, and went to the bottom lane! What a crazy wacky twist! Oh man, I hope I didn't blow your brain right out of your head! If anyone gets mad at you for doing this just reply with "it's the new meta." Also, people who care too much about the metagame are stupid anyways, cause there are a lot of champs who can play multiple roles (e.g., jungle, top, or bottom).
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Apr 11, 2013 03:31
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Yeah time doesn't affect Call of Duty skill. You either are good, or you ain't, and practice can only make you mediocre or awesome. For example, at one point I found a dude with like 10 days of playtime, and a kill:death ratio of .22. Literally every kill he got was in between 5 loving deaths. How can you keep playing, and keep being bad. Also his win:loss was negative so he obviously wasn't helping win. Call of Duty itself isn't hard to grief on either, I keep running into kids with Youtube links in their emblem and whenever they lose you get an endless font of screaming anger. I could hear some kids dad telling him to be nice after I made a tasteful joke about his heritage.
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Apr 11, 2013 03:52
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Dreggon posted:Picking anything but the specific role that you're 'assigned' in League of Legends will definitely have people raging at you. These are not roles that are assigned by the game, however - they're just what the playerbase expects you to do. This generally seems to go in the following categories. That's just bizarre. Shouldn't there be some kind of elaborate metagame popping up, where people pick lanes, and opponents try to counter that with champs strong against that particular niche? I mean, that's what you'd expect from a competitive community. Like I get the idea of a carry, the support should be trying to keep the carry alive for as long as possible until the carry matures into something beautiful, but shouldn't someone be running in and continuously murdering the carry while they're still weak? Why would you counter a support+carry with a support+carry of your own? Alternatively this is only an issue at the lower levels and you and them are just bad 
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Apr 11, 2013 04:05
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Phobophilia posted:That's just bizarre. Shouldn't there be some kind of elaborate metagame popping up, where people pick lanes, and opponents try to counter that with champs strong against that particular niche? I mean, that's what you'd expect from a competitive community. From my brief time trying to play LoL, it seems that the player base mostly develops strategies by rote, rather than actually thinking about things.
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Apr 11, 2013 04:09
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Phobophilia posted:That's just bizarre. Shouldn't there be some kind of elaborate metagame popping up, where people pick lanes, and opponents try to counter that with champs strong against that particular niche? I mean, that's what you'd expect from a competitive community. The difference between League and Dota is that because League relies on selling characters for revenue, they can't make them too different from each other . So, the end result is that you have 30 characters with basically the same skills for each role, and the meta becomes static as a result. This is as opposed to Dota, where there are a few outliers (you're never going to see a hard carry Crystal Maiden, for example) but a lot of people in the middle can fit many roles, and even traditional hard carries can fit support-ish roles (Gyrocopter is currently a popular semi-support, and way back in the day the infamous hard carry Faceless Void used his ultimate for pure support to lock down the enemy team).
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Apr 11, 2013 04:09
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The ultimate idea of Support/Carry bottom is that it gets your carry all the gold of a solo lane with less risk, but also puts two people near the biggest early game objective: The dragon. If your team kills the dragon, everybody on your team gets 150 Gold, with bonus gold to whoever delivered the killing blow. If you run a solo lane in the bottom, whenever he goes back, or dies, or even loses vision of his target, you lose all your security on the dragon. If you run a solo lane against a support/carry bottom of your opponent, they'll probably kill the solo guy with ease. Now, most people don't realize the point behind the meta, only that the pros stick to the meta so it must be best. The argument is less against running a duo lane bottom, and more that there are specific situations where you could run two attack-y bruiser guys down bottom who can kill a carry and support while they're weak and prevent them from ever getting off the ground. But nobody plays that, because there is a very good chance the assholes running non-standard roles bottom lane are either trolls, or too stupid to understand how to fight that ranged lane because they just saw some guy on a stream do it once.
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Apr 11, 2013 04:10
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Zereth posted:It's also a conflation of two separate stories, one a bout a guy playing an MMO who didn't bother to leave his computer to poop, and another guy who inexplicably pooped into socks and kept them. The term originates from a story on these very forums where a woman discovered that her boyfriend kept a duffle bag full of poop-filled socks beneath his bed, which I guess is a kind of real life griefing
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Apr 11, 2013 04:11
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Phobophilia posted:That's just bizarre. Shouldn't there be some kind of elaborate metagame popping up, where people pick lanes, and opponents try to counter that with champs strong against that particular niche? I mean, that's what you'd expect from a competitive community. That task generally falls to the Jungler. Have the allied Support/Carry "allow" the enemy Support/Carry to over-extend themselves, then have Jungle come down the river and attack from behind for a 3v2.
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Apr 11, 2013 04:18
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Phobophilia posted:That's just bizarre. Shouldn't there be some kind of elaborate metagame popping up, where people pick lanes, and opponents try to counter that with champs strong against that particular niche? I mean, that's what you'd expect from a competitive community. When games can last an hour and one player doing poorly causes your entire team to lose people are very reluctant to try out new strategies. Especially because the people who play these games are spergy types who care way too much about their win/loss ratios and the like.
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Apr 11, 2013 04:24
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computer parts posted:"Mid or feed". Cage Kicker posted:The self-grief begins when you install LoL and ends when you get perma-banned and lose your $900 worth of pixels.
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Apr 11, 2013 04:26
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Shumagorath posted:That was actually one of the player's names. What does that even mean? "Give me what I want (mid lane) or I'll be a child and let the enemies kill me repeatedly, basically guaranteeing a loss" I think, its been ages since I've played LoL.
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Apr 11, 2013 04:29
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I assume it's a threat. Either he gets to take the middle lane or he will "feed" the other team by deliberately getting killed so they can level up.
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Apr 11, 2013 04:32
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Blind Sally posted:Aw, what? No way, that's terrible This is not true. You can't get banned for making jokes and stuff. Unless you're really abusive while in character you'll be fine. Taciturn Tactician fucked around with this message at 04:34 on Apr 11, 2013 |
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Apr 11, 2013 04:32
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I feel like LOL is griefing me, if this is the case.
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Phobophilia posted:That's just bizarre. Shouldn't there be some kind of elaborate metagame popping up, where people pick lanes, and opponents try to counter that with champs strong against that particular niche? I mean, that's what you'd expect from a competitive community. One of the huge, core differences between LoL and DotA is that in DotA, you can see what characters your enemies have selected and counter-pick accordingly - so let's say you see someone pick a character that goes invisible, you can pick a character that applies a debuff that lets you see that unit through invisibility - but in League of Legends, your enemy's picks are hidden until the game starts. For this reason alone, DotA is a much deeper game. Plus you can pick whoever you want in DotA and nobody cares. Five magic damage dealers and no physical damage? Five heavily gold-reliant carries all competing against each other for the limited amount of currency available from enemies? Everybody melee? It can all work. It often doesn't, but people complain a lot less, and there's no major incentive to win like there is in LoL where you have to earn funnymoney to unlock new characters. LoL griefs are usually funny because the balance team do everything they can to make it difficult if not impossible. In DotA I can pick a character who pulls nearby enemy units to a targeted location, such as the top of a cliff that you can't leave unless you pay gold for a teleport scroll - which can be intercepted en-route, leaving you stuck for the next four minutes, or interrupted, which both leaves you stuck and costs you gold. Best of all, it's perfectly legitimate since you're doing it to the enemy team.
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Apr 11, 2013 05:03
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You can see your opponent's picks in draft mode, just not in Blind Pick mode. It would be like saying DotA isn't a deep game because you can only get random champions (if you queue into All Random).
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Apr 11, 2013 05:15
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Shumagorath posted:That was actually one of the player's names. What does that even mean? There's 3 lanes (avenues that the uncontrollable NPC creeps for each side move down and fight) in the map: top, mid, bottom. Generally bottom is given to two people because it's close to an important early-game objective; mid-lane, as it's the shortest, is generally given to a mage; and top-lane is usually given to a self-reliant "bruiser"-type character (someone who can dish out and take punishment both and is hard to gank) since they're furthest from the bulk of their team. The fifth guy acts as a roaming ganker killing neutral creeps in the jungle between lanes. Mage classes generally involve a lot of flashy effects and pressing buttons to deal a lot of damage whereas other lane roles involve either relying on other people or a lot of damage originating from autoattacks instead of ability casts; and since pubbies loooove pressing buttons and high damage and the chance to kill people, it attracts them like mad. If someone says "Mid or feed" they're demanding to be given that role or else they'll feed - kill themselves over and over to give the enemy team a bunch of money, which is almost impossible to recover from unless someone on the enemy team does the same thing. quote:One of the huge, core differences between LoL and DotA is that in DotA, you can see what characters your enemies have selected and counter-pick accordingly - so let's say you see someone pick a character that goes invisible, you can pick a character that applies a debuff that lets you see that unit through invisibility - but in League of Legends, your enemy's picks are hidden until the game starts. For this reason alone, DotA is a much deeper game. Plus you can pick whoever you want in DotA and nobody cares. Five magic damage dealers and no physical damage? Five heavily gold-reliant carries all competing against each other for the limited amount of currency available from enemies? Everybody melee? It can all work. It often doesn't, but people complain a lot less, and there's no major incentive to win like there is in LoL where you have to earn funnymoney to unlock new characters. This is false. LoL has two queues - blind pick and draft pick. Blind pick is as you say, but draft pick (which is the mode played by the esports types and the one which gets ELO rating) has alternating picks with bans and the ability to see what the enemy team is picking. And some actual LoL-related griefing, somewhat tied to the above: One of the mage champs in the game is called Karthus and he's probably the best champion in the game for making people in the game rage at you, both your team and the enemy, even if you just play him normally. It comes from a combination of his abilities - -An ability that drains mana continually but does AoE damage to everyone nearby. -A wall which, if the enemy walks through it, slows them and reduces their defences a whole bunch. -A really spammable ability which puts a little red thing on the ground that explodes a half-second later. -His passive, which activates when he dies. He turns into a ghost for 7 seconds, is invulnerable and untargetable, and all his spells cost 0 mana. The first ability I mentioned (the mana-draining AoE) is active all the time during this. -His ultimate, Requiem, which has a big obvious animation (all enemy champions are shrouded in red light for ~2 seconds) and then hits all enemy champions, no matter where they are, for a decent chunk of damage. Played correctly Karthus will make people extremely angry at you. The enemy team will be mad at you for getting "cheap" and "unskilled" kills from his post-death passive and from Requiem; your own team will hate you because you're "stealing their kills" from across the map with requiem.  FUQ U NOOB LRN 2 SKILL AND NOT JUST PRESS R FAGET they'll cry, when really Karthus is completely neutered by intelligent play since all of his spells (bar Requiem) are dodgeable and Requiem will never kill you if you just play more carefully.
President Ark fucked around with this message at 05:31 on Apr 11, 2013 |
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Apr 11, 2013 05:22
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This is somehow even more impenetrable than regular MMO lingo.
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Apr 11, 2013 05:30
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Taciturn Tactician posted:This is not true. You can't get banned for making jokes and stuff. Unless you're really abusive while in character you'll be fine. Nah its quite true. Do the Tribunal some time. I've seen games where someone will "break" the meta-game, get raged at. Die for some reason, and then be reported for "feeding". They will then be punished for seemingly going against the rest of the team doing the "correct" meta, and be seen as a greifer themselves, even though their only offense is not explicitly doing what the rest of the team said. Also, enough LoL meta chat, the game is a time waster, and its turning into ridiculous jargon. Grief in Starcraft: Say any variant of "I'm new" or "I'm going to only build [Expensive Unit]" and people will immediately leave.
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Apr 11, 2013 05:35
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Thanks for this, I think for the first time in literal years I actually know what some of these terms mean. Mid, AD Carry, Feed, etc. have all been impenetrable slang for me until now. I'm still not quite sure about "lanes" unless they're literal physical pathways. I always picture an olympic swimming pool with those ropes strung down each lane as barriers. I see a lot of comics made from various communities like 4chan about things that happen in videogames. You know the kind, little MS Paint black and white scribbles of various occurrences. Even when they're about games I've never played, I can sort of piece together what's going on. LoL and DotA are the only two games whose comics I can pretty much never, ever understand. I've got a close to 0% success rate in interpreting comics about them, it's just some weird looking guy doing something I can't understand, and then there's a puff of smoke or some guy says something that looks like English but makes no sense, and then the last panel is some guy getting angry. As an outsider looking in (and only in passing), I have to say they're some of the most obtuse and inscrutable games I've ever encountered.
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Apr 11, 2013 05:46
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Vib Rib posted:I'm still not quite sure about "lanes" unless they're literal physical pathways. They are. 
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Apr 11, 2013 05:50
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Jastiger posted:That type of behavior can get you banned, be careful. Hahah, no it doesn't. Are you still upset over that time you got banned, and then got called out after you posted the Tribunal report card? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 11, 2013 06:02
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computer parts posted:They are. So is the LoL map literally identical to the DotA one? 'Cause it looks like it, and overall LoL stinks of being really, painfully derivative. I might just be saying that because I recently firmly joined the DotA side of the conflict, though.
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Apr 11, 2013 06:19
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Cleretic posted:So is the LoL map literally identical to the DotA one? 'Cause it looks like it, and overall LoL stinks of being really, painfully derivative. I remember the first time I played DotA and asking if there were any other maps.
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Apr 11, 2013 06:25
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The DotA-like debate is a terrible thing even in threads where it's vaguely appropriate (and I don't think this forum has any of those). They're not even trying to be the same game or appeal to the same player base.
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Apr 11, 2013 06:28
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Wait, wait, DOTA/LOL are played on a single map? Really? There's no map rotation? The only game I ever played from that genre was Monday Night Combat, so I just assumed that having multiple maps was the norm.
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Apr 11, 2013 06:33
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I played DOTA once in like 2006 and joined a NOOBS ONLY game and got banlisted from all Dota for not knowing how to play. WC3 owned otherwise though, especially the custom game Desert Storm, in which I always nuked the Mecca. Better yet was that a few games had a "probation" that would put you in that cinematic widescreen thing, that you had to CAD to leave.
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Apr 11, 2013 06:34
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League has Dominion ( a 5 capture point map) and Twisted Treeline (a two lane, 3v3 map). Oh, and the Proving Grounds one lane map for ARAMs. Also, it's not really a DotA vs League debate, DotA players just like to stop by to remind us we're all stupid babies for not playing a real man's game. It generally doesn't go in the other direction.
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Apr 11, 2013 06:34
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Antlions posted:Hahah, no it doesn't. Are you still upset over that time you got banned, and then got called out after you posted the Tribunal report card? Yes it does, and Yes.
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Apr 11, 2013 06:36
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SynthOrange posted:This is somehow even more impenetrable than regular MMO lingo. For a very long time I was able to stir up poo poo in almost any IRC channel I was in by randomly throwing in jargon for DotA-likes into declarative sentences. It would often take 20 minutes or more for people to realize that I have never played a DotA-like in my life. I can't think of a single other family of games where this is true. With the release of DotA 2 the vocabulary is slowly calming down and becoming less loving stupid, but it really goes to highlight how utterly screwed up the community was, and to a large extent still is. The fury I could incite by saying seemingly nonsensical bullshit into a sentence was constantly stunning, though. Coolguye fucked around with this message at 06:41 on Apr 11, 2013 |
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Apr 11, 2013 06:38
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Zaodai posted:Also, it's not really a DotA vs League debate, DotA players just like to stop by to remind us we're all stupid babies for not playing a real man's game. I Also if you don't play Smash Bros. with items turned off you're a horrible casual piece of poo poo who doesn't deserve to play Sakurai-sama's glorious masterpiece.
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Apr 11, 2013 06:39
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Pope Guilty posted:Wait, wait, DOTA/LOL are played on a single map? Really? There's no map rotation? The only game I ever played from that genre was Monday Night Combat, so I just assumed that having multiple maps was the norm. As I understand it, the original DOTA was a WC3 custom map. Literally one map. DOTA couldn't have map rotation because the DOTA was the map. DOTA2, consequently, still only has the one map despite being professionally produced on a much more flexible engine. DOTA is the DOTA map. They are not separable concepts. (Valve may very well add additional maps later, but they seem pretty dedicated to playing it safe and just making DOTA But Prettier.)
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Apr 11, 2013 06:47
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Improbable Lobster posted:From my brief time trying to play LoL, it seems that the player base mostly develops strategies by rote, rather than actually thinking about things. This is true. My friend and I, who are both hardcore gamers and game designers, play LOL together sometimes. We like to mix things up by doing ridiculous, unheard of compositions when we lane together. Basically we both take ridiculous champions that are considered underpowered or gimmicky or something, and by combining their abilities we come up with retardedly fun or annoying strategies (like chaining together stuns or self-heals or whatever). Since I don't want to turn this post into a big spergfest, all I'll say is that the majority of the time, our own team will just become livid when they see that we aren't using one of the ~MLG professional gamer sanctioned champion combinations~ or whatever. Then when my friend and I manage to do well everyone else (both the enemies we are killing and the teammates we are helping) get all snotty and refuse to acknowledge that just maybe we have invented a combination that works well, despite it not being listed in one of their big "VALID BOTTOM LANE COMPS" lists.
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Apr 11, 2013 07:15
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Dota is balanced very tightly around the map it is played on. The ability of characters to control space, exert pressure, travel, and farm is all tied to how their abilities interact with the landscape. For a quick example, Queen of Pain is a powerful early game hero in Dota with good mobility and powerful burst damage. She likes to go to the mid lane so she can build up a quick level advantage, then use that to pressure the rest of the map and dictate the flow of the midgame. If she does well, she can snowball into an unstoppable killing machine or at least tip the momentum of the game far enough in her team's advantage that the other team will have significant difficulty catching up. If she gets off to a bad start or fails to make plays at her peak, she will probably fall behind and struggle to have an impact on the rest of the match. Her ability to move around is based on the Dota map. On a smaller map, where the opportunity cost of travel was lower (if you are not in your lane, you are not getting gold or experience while giving your opponent uncontested access) and there was less time to recognize that Queen of Pain was missing and issue a warning, she would most likely become terrifyingly powerful. Similarly, on a larger map, it could be incredibly difficult for her to exert pressure enough for it to justify the time required, and she would likely be unplayed. While the offer of additional maps and game modes has brought some diversity to LoL, it has also introduced balance problems that fundamentally cannot be solved. Some characters are designed for situations that do not exist in Dominion, and there is no way to fix them for that mode without breaking them for Summoner's Rift or making them into something else. Last I was aware, Riot had declared that Summoner's Rift was the official supported game type and they would not attempt competitive balancing for the others (though I believe they have toned down some characters who were overwhelmingly powerful in 3v3 and Dominion that were not troublesome in 5v5 simply to keep the alternative playable). TL:DR; there are very good reasons that Dota only has one map and complaining about it is a bit like criticizing Football for being played on the same field every time. Voyager I fucked around with this message at 07:18 on Apr 11, 2013 |
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Apr 11, 2013 07:16
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Zaodai posted:Also, it's not really a DotA vs League debate, DotA players just like to stop by to remind us we're all stupid babies for not playing a real man's game. It generally doesn't go in the other direction. Basically this, read the DC Comics ARTS thread to see an example of DOTA players beating their chests about how LoL and LoL inspired ARTS's aren't REAL ESPORTS GAMES. With the way people scream about LoL you'd think that ARTS's were these incredible irreversible life decisions, where you can only pick one game in your entire lifetime (and you are required to defend it against all competing ARTS's), and not just a bunch of silly and fun F2P games made by unrelated companies appealing to mostly unrelated people. (Also can we stop with the 3 page long thesis's on DOTA/LoL? I thought this was the griefing thread, not the Defend Your Free Game thread.) (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 11, 2013 07:19
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Pope Guilty posted:Wait, wait, DOTA/LOL are played on a single map? Really? There's no map rotation? The only game I ever played from that genre was Monday Night Combat, so I just assumed that having multiple maps was the norm. MNC only had a few classes if I remember correctly. Both DoTA and LoL have a cast of 100+ characters and almost as many items that make for interactive and dynamic laning/gameplay. The map may be static but gameplay rarely is.
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Apr 11, 2013 07:24
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Is this some kind of meta griefing?
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Apr 11, 2013 07:37
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