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woozle wuzzle posted:A simple sign-in sheet at court becomes a chore of explanation and bargaining. I DO NOT WISH TO CREATE JOINDER WITH YOU!!!!!
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Apr 11, 2013 19:55
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Roger_Mudd posted:I DO NOT WISH TO CREATE JOINDER WITH YOU!!!!! *unzips* too bad
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Apr 11, 2013 19:59
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"OK I'll sign in for you, it's just your name" "SO THEY CAN ARREST ME FOR FORGERY AND FALSE ID, I KNEW YOU WANTED TO JAIL ME ALL ALONG! WHERE IS THE HIDDEN CAMERA? PLEASE DON'T TAZE ME I HAVE FILLINGS! <puts hands behind back>" "Uhh..."
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Apr 11, 2013 20:00
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Out of curiosity, does the Sovereign Citizen stuff overlap entirely with people who are mentally ill/conspiracy bugs, or are there otherwise regular people who are just convinced courts are a sham? On a different topic, one of my coworkers has decided to go to the New England School of Law. I guess its Tier 4 and only 30% of the class of 2011 are actually working as any sort of lawyer, but she's convinced it a good idea because she's going part time and getting a scholarship. I tried to explain opportunity cost but apparently I am a known law school skeptic and therefore suspect. Is there anything else I can do? One of my other coworkers is going to Yale, and I blame that as a bad influence.
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Apr 11, 2013 20:13
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Ashcans posted:Out of curiosity, does the Sovereign Citizen stuff overlap entirely with people who are mentally ill/conspiracy bugs, or are there otherwise regular people who are just convinced courts are a sham? 1) conspiracy theorists and the mentally ill 2) people who don't want to pay taxes 3) people easily taken in by "seminars"
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Apr 11, 2013 20:22
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TenementFunster posted:3) people easily taken in by "seminars" Heh. Morons.  *is in a law school class*
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Apr 11, 2013 20:30
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MoFauxHawk posted:Heh. Morons. it's us
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Apr 11, 2013 20:42
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Yeah, they have an odd set of core beliefs that seem to be common amongst all the varying groups. They think the 14th amendment signalled a change in the government to a second hidden constitution by making everyone US citizens instead of citizens of their respective state. They think the US went bankrupt in 1935 when it switched from the gold standard and US citizens are now the collateral used for loans. Your SS# is your bank account number at the treasury dept set up under your name in all caps. JOHN DOE isn't a person, but is just an account that they think can be used to pay of debts. It's loving kooky.
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Apr 11, 2013 21:11
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Ashcans posted:On a different topic, one of my coworkers has decided to go to the New England School of Law. I guess its Tier 4 and only 30% of the class of 2011 are actually working as any sort of lawyer, but she's convinced it a good idea because she's going part time and getting a scholarship. I tried to explain opportunity cost but apparently I am a known law school skeptic and therefore suspect. Is there anything else I can do? Your friend is an idiot and you can't do anything about it. Anyone who goes to law school now deserves everything they get. Five years ago it was different and this poo poo wasn't common knowledge. Now every newspaper in the country has run articles about how it's the worst thing you can ever do. In conclusion - let her burn with the rest of us. Edit: Ok...maybe that's a little harsh. But seriously, if she actually thinks going to New England School of Law is a good idea, then she's pretty stupid, and you're not going to be able to reason with her. Here are a few talking points you can try: You won't get a job. You will go deep into debt. You're going to lose your scholarship. Your wasting 3 years of your life. Also, you could include that even if she did get a job (she won't), she's going to hate it. Just give up though, she's stupid. Let the baby touch the fire, it's the only way they learn. HAHAHAHAHA - The total cost of attendance for the Class of 2016 is $234,296. HiddenReplaced fucked around with this message at 21:44 on Apr 11, 2013 |
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Apr 11, 2013 21:35
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Mr. Nice! posted:...They think the 14th amendment signalled a change in the government to a second hidden constitution by making everyone US citizens instead of citizens of their respective state... What's extra kooky is when it's an African American telling you this.
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Apr 11, 2013 22:26
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joat mon posted:What's extra kooky is when it's an African American telling you this.
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Apr 11, 2013 22:30
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TenementFunster posted:here in Denver, there is some "historically black church" that has a wing of sovereign citizen hangers-on that is causing trouble for the local cops on traffic stops. the religious angle /pretext just makes it all the sweeter. Funny you should mention that. This guy was a Yahweh ben Yahweh follower.
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Apr 11, 2013 22:34
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Skepticism of the "system" seems to be a defining trait of a person susceptible to the sovereign bullshit. That's not hard to come by with today's banking sector, and the government bailing them out. There's more than a nugget of truth behind their intuition that the system isn't designed to protect them. So minorities, laid off, foreclosed on, etc, of the middle class are the typical freeman. Poor people always knew they were on the short end of the stick. Freeman are fuckyougotmine people who just realized that the house take isn't in their favor. That revelation is almost like a psychotic break for them, and they'll listen to anyone who claims to have the answers.
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Apr 11, 2013 23:06
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It's just so interesting that they can connect the dots far enough to get "the system is out to screw me" but they can't take that next (tiny) step to "the guy who says he'll protect me from the system if I pay him enough cash is also out to screw me." One of my other bizarre fascinations is for multi-level marketing. Amway and the like. Only the people at the top of the pyramid ever get any measurable income from the scams, and something like... 99% of people who participate in them actively lose money. But the recruiting strategies and in-group reinforcement techniques are very much focused along "we've got the secret and everyone who works 9 - 5 is a sucker." Same sort of "secret knowledge" vibe that the sovereigns perpetuate. Conspiracy theories, UFO cults, all that stuff. They all seem to peddle some kind of "inside information" that apparently makes it incredibly seductive to a good chunk of the population. Is it just the natural human tendency towards factionalism/tribalism? If you possess these particular secrets, you can write off everyone who doesn't?
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Apr 11, 2013 23:26
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Ashcans posted:Out of curiosity, does the Sovereign Citizen stuff overlap entirely with people who are mentally ill/conspiracy bugs, or are there otherwise regular people who are just convinced courts are a sham? I don't think everyone who is espousing that crap is mentally ill, but to a certain extent you have to be kind of a conspiracy bug. If you believe there's no law requiring you to file a tax return* or that the income tax only applies to federal employees or only to people living in DC, but the IRS is defying the law and collecting it anyway (and that in fact Congress may be complicit)**, you believe, at best, that a 100,000-employee federal agency is completely wrong about its mission, but more likely you have to believe that some or all of the organization knows the truth and is just running a racket. For that matter, it basically requires you to accept that nearly everyone else in the country is a dupe and you're the smart one - which isn't a conspiracy theory, exactly, but seems related. *: Somehow if you say "It's 26 USC 6012(a)," nobody ever reads it and goes "Oh! Yeah, you're right! I guess I do have to file!" **: There are people who legitimately believe that the income tax is constitutional and that it applies to some people, but not the vast majority of American citizens. Some of them also believe that Congress is in on this scam. Why, if they believe all these things, they don't think Congress would have just gone ahead and made the tax applicable to everyone else, I have no idea.
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Apr 11, 2013 23:47
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MaximumBob posted:For that matter, it basically requires you to accept that nearly everyone else in the country is a dupe and you're the smart one - which isn't a conspiracy theory, exactly, but seems related. That's sort of what I was getting at in my post (which I cut short before I finished the thought). Somehow, if you preface statements with "THEY don't want you to know!" it circumvents the critical faculties on otherwise perfectly reasonable people. I've known folks who were highly intelligent but, for whatever reason, apply no critical thought at all to claims of esoteric knowledge. I'd love to know what makes them so susceptible to that particular approach.
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Apr 12, 2013 00:00
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Alaemon posted:I've known folks who were highly intelligent but, for whatever reason, apply no critical thought at all to claims of esoteric knowledge. I'd love to know what makes them so susceptible to that particular approach. Every time this or similar subjects get brought up this line inevitably appears. Anyone who gets sucked into this stuff isn't highly intelligent, they're just good at making themselves look like it.
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Apr 12, 2013 00:20
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Alaemon posted:Only the people at the top of the pyramid ever get any measurable income from the scams, and something like... 99% of people who participate in them actively lose money.
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Apr 12, 2013 00:42
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Mattavist posted:Every time this or similar subjects get brought up this line inevitably appears. Anyone who gets sucked into this stuff isn't highly intelligent, they're just good at making themselves look like it. It depends on how you define intelligence. People can have high IQ, but zero capability for introspection. That's what the sovereign lacks. It's a common thing, even with lawyers. Some one can be highly intelligent but refuse to critically examine their course of action due to sunk cost, emotion, etc.
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Apr 12, 2013 01:09
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It sounds like some of the people you're talking about have either a schizotypal personality disorder or paranoid personality disorder. Schizotypal personality disorder is basically diet schizophrenia. They have, among an extensive list of possible symptoms, odd thought processes, but they can function relatively well in society. Paranoid personality disorder is exactly as it sounds. These don't preclude each other, and you can even mix and match multiple personality disorders. 
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Apr 12, 2013 02:00
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Self interest is also very powerful. It's easy to convince yourself that the income tax system is a fraud when it means you get to take home 25% more money each year.
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Apr 12, 2013 02:02
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HiddenReplaced posted:Your friend is an idiot and you can't do anything about it. That's what I'm afraid of.  I am really worried that she's doomed, but I guess she might always get lucky and be one of the ten people from her school that land actual jobs. At least she isn't planning on international panda law. quote:HAHAHAHAHA - The total cost of attendance for the Class of 2016 is $234,296. woozle wuzzle posted:Skepticism of the "system" seems to be a defining trait of a person susceptible to the sovereign bullshit. That's not hard to come by with today's banking sector, and the government bailing them out. There's more than a nugget of truth behind their intuition that the system isn't designed to protect them. So minorities, laid off, foreclosed on, etc, of the middle class are the typical freeman. Poor people always knew they were on the short end of the stick. Freeman are fuckyougotmine people who just realized that the house take isn't in their favor. That revelation is almost like a psychotic break for them, and they'll listen to anyone who claims to have the answers. I'm not surprised that people realize that the system is against them (because it is, mostly). I think that's a pragmatic position to take for a lot of folks. What's really weird is that having realized that, they buy into what is basically like... legal alchemy, or magic. Like you've decided that the police, the court, and the Federal government is conspiring against you, but somehow if you can string together the right invocation of legal words, you can set up some sort of warding circle to drive them back. As opposed to them just laughing in your face and dragging you off anyway. It's like someone realizing that police brutality is a real thing, but then deciding that if you shout 'Alakazaam' they will stop clubbing you.
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Apr 12, 2013 02:33
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Ashcans posted:I'm not surprised that people realize that the system is against them (because it is, mostly). I think that's a pragmatic position to take for a lot of folks. What's really weird is that having realized that, they buy into what is basically like... legal alchemy, or magic. Like you've decided that the police, the court, and the Federal government is conspiring against you, but somehow if you can string together the right invocation of legal words, you can set up some sort of warding circle to drive them back. As opposed to them just laughing in your face and dragging you off anyway. It's like someone realizing that police brutality is a real thing, but then deciding that if you shout 'Alakazaam' they will stop clubbing you. That's been exactly my logical argument to them, because it doesn't require invalidating their fantasy land. You don't argue the underlying bullshit of personhood or whatever, but tell them they better keep their head down rather than fight it. "Let's say you win, the judge agrees with you 100% and is ready to rule for you. What can they do? Do you think the system allows them to just give you your house/taxes/freedom without a cost? The state can appeal, they'll find a favorable judge. They'll be out for you then. A judge doesn't have the freedom to just buck the system. So even if you're totally right, it doesn't matter because the system won't rule for you. Best to play along, and I can guide you through it... just hold my hand... hush now... shhhh... just relax..."
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Apr 12, 2013 02:46
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Mattavist posted:Every time this or similar subjects get brought up this line inevitably appears. Anyone who gets sucked into this stuff isn't highly intelligent, they're just good at making themselves look like it. That strikes me as an absurdly reductionist view of intelligence. If intelligence were that binary, IQ tests would only need to be one question long.
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Apr 12, 2013 02:50
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Well, in criminal trials, I think they believe that if they can just get the "truth"to the jury, man, they'll be home free. They just gotta get past the mean ol' judge and lawyers.
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Apr 12, 2013 02:53
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Alaemon posted:That strikes me as an absurdly reductionist view of intelligence. If intelligence were that binary, IQ tests would only need to be one question long. Well it's not like I think that those who aren't Sovereign Citizens are highly intelligent, but I don't understand how someone who lacks the critical thinking skills to reject that sort of idiocy can be considered so. Maybe that's just because I actually am highly intelligent because I went to law school and can think like a lawyer.
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Apr 12, 2013 02:59
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Alaemon posted:That strikes me as an absurdly reductionist view of intelligence. If intelligence were that binary, IQ tests would only need to be one question long. It's not like there's one single connection in the brain that says "SOVEREIGN CITIZEN" or not. If you're not mentally ill and you buy into that stuff, then a lot of your brain is failing you. You might be kind of smart, but you're not "highly intelligent" if your intellect is continually failing to make the correct connections about these things, in lots of different parts of your brain. That kind of lack of judgment stretches into multiple aspects of your intelligence.
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Apr 12, 2013 03:22
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You two must just not deal with the public very much. "Smart" people believe in lots of dumb rear end poo poo. A person can have a very high IQ and like the Mets, watch hockey on purpose, be a gun rights nut, etc. Highly intelligent people take logically inconsistent positions all the time, including ones that deeply impact their daily lives. So it all depends on if you define intelligence as outcome based, or just the raw computing power of the brain. In my opinion, an outcome based definition would result in like 200 intelligent people on the planet, making the word pretty useless.
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Apr 12, 2013 03:30
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woozle wuzzle posted:You two must just not deal with the public very much. "Smart" people believe in lots of dumb rear end poo poo. A person can have a very high IQ and like the Mets, watch hockey on purpose, be a gun rights nut, etc. Highly intelligent people take logically inconsistent positions all the time, including ones that deeply impact their daily lives. So it all depends on if you define intelligence as outcome based, or just the raw computing power of the brain. In my opinion, an outcome based definition would result in like 200 intelligent people on the planet, making the word pretty useless. I'm not necessarily talking about outcomes. But if you believe one of those logically inconsistent things, then your intelligence does get knocked down a peg in my book, yeah, even if it's a small peg. I'm sure I believe at least a few things that are wrong and that I want to believe because of my emotions and leanings. But if you believe in all kinds of conspiracy theories and magic legal potions that logic, people smarts, street smarts, wisdom, and whatever other kinds of intelligence people like to talk about should be raising red flags about, then no, you're not "highly intelligent" (barring some kind of legitimate mental health issue). You might be kind of smart, or good at a specific kind of thinking, fine, but you lose the "highly intelligent" title that we law people apparently like to use for people. I have some friends I would consider "highly intelligent", and strangely enough, they never suddenly surprise me by believing something that's stupid as gently caress. They're generally pretty good at applying their smarts to every idea they encounter, even if they might make illogical decisions sometimes in their lives like everybody does. I also think we all just have different definitions of "highly intelligent" though. MoFauxHawk fucked around with this message at 03:47 on Apr 12, 2013 |
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Apr 12, 2013 03:44
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woozle wuzzle posted:You two must just not deal with the public very much. "Smart" people believe in lots of dumb rear end poo poo. A person can have a very high IQ and like the Mets, watch hockey on purpose, be a gun rights nut, etc. Highly intelligent people take logically inconsistent positions all the time, including ones that deeply impact their daily lives. So it all depends on if you define intelligence as outcome based, or just the raw computing power of the brain. In my opinion, an outcome based definition would result in like 200 intelligent people on the planet, making the word pretty useless. I know a lawyer who's a named partner at a midsize firm and a very good litigator who loves getting up on his  high-horse and ranting about how government can't do anything right but at the same time is a 9-11 truther. 
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Apr 12, 2013 04:03
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Lote posted:It sounds like some of the people you're talking about have either a schizotypal personality disorder or paranoid personality disorder. Schizotypal personality disorder is basically diet schizophrenia. They have, among an extensive list of possible symptoms, odd thought processes, but they can function relatively well in society. Paranoid personality disorder is exactly as it sounds. These don't preclude each other, and you can even mix and match multiple personality disorders. It's hard to just say that the people who believe crazy things are just some type of insane though because there are different types of not making sense: I've had to deal with people who clearly don't apprehend reality the way I do (and I assume I'm the sane one because I keep winning). They'll say "I know you have to do your job but I have to file this motion for judicial notice of twenty cases that are unrelated because I have to make my record, you understand?" And I don't understand. But I say sure because what the hell else am I supposed to do? And then I have the people who file requests for admissions demanding I admit that there's no law making them liable for income tax and I at least see where they're coming from because it's the right procedural vehicle and the right question if you just assume their initial premise is correct. Which it's not, but still. MaximumBob fucked around with this message at 04:34 on Apr 12, 2013 |
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Apr 12, 2013 04:31
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Alaemon posted:I mention it because it's basically the physics equivalent of a sovereign citizen. I'd like to think that if a sovereign citizen sat down with someone who would walk them through their errors ("joinder does not mean what you think it means") that they could be persuaded into something more rational. But it's that pesky cognitive dissonance stuff, again. When evidence conflicts with a deeply held belief, you discard the evidence and double down on your belief. (See also When Prophecy Fails by Leon Festinger for a UFO cult whose end-of-the-world prophecies failed to come true.) So sovereign citizens are like the legal equivalent of homeopaths, just with more tazings? We need more homeopath tazings. Ratatozsk fucked around with this message at 06:05 on Apr 12, 2013 |
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Apr 12, 2013 06:01
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Wow, it took her just under two minutes to go into full-on bullshit. When I watch stuff like that, I always wonder if the person speaking is a cynical manipulator pushing an agenda or a true believer in an echo chamber. (A Scalia or a Thomas, to bring it back around to law.)
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Apr 12, 2013 06:55
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MoFauxHawk posted:I also think we all just have different definitions of "highly intelligent" though. In the interest of a speedy and public thread, I'll just say yeah.
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Apr 12, 2013 07:02
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MaximumBob posted:It's hard to just say that the people who believe crazy things are just some type of insane though because there are different types of not making sense: I've had to deal with people who clearly don't apprehend reality the way I do (and I assume I'm the sane one because I keep winning). They'll say "I know you have to do your job but I have to file this motion for judicial notice of twenty cases that are unrelated because I have to make my record, you understand?" And I don't understand. But I say sure because what the hell else am I supposed to do? And then I have the people who file requests for admissions demanding I admit that there's no law making them liable for income tax and I at least see where they're coming from because it's the right procedural vehicle and the right question if you just assume their initial premise is correct. Which it's not, but still. One of the key distinctions, though, is that if you point out their flaw in logic, do they accept that their logic is flawed? Or, like what often comes up in this thread, do they try to hamstring an explanation of why your logic is flawed and their answer is correct because ~reasons~ ? Also, "some type of insane" is a very wide spectrum. Most people with personality disorders function in society and it's not until you get to the more severe cases where they start classifying people into the stereotyped disorders like full blown schizophrenia. You'd probably call them eccentric instead of "insane." Plus, it's more complicated because there are more inclusion or exclusion criteria. People that hold one delusional belief? Probably fine. Someone that holds that belief so strongly that they have multiple incidents of going around asking people about sworn oaths until they get tazed? Probably not as much. It's also difficult to try and help these people get out of their delusions and disorders because progress can't really be made until they acknowledge a problem. Sucks though if you have to deal with a guy who brings in a gym bag full of sovereign citizen papers. Probably about as frustrating as the pediatrician having to argue against the autism/MMR vaccine parents. Lote fucked around with this message at 18:41 on Apr 12, 2013 |
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Apr 12, 2013 18:36
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Man I met this lawyer at a bar last night who works for a collections company and takes poor people's cars and forecloses on them and makes them pay massive debts in one payment rather than payment plans if they haven't been paying. And like, fine, somebody has to do that job, and if you've managed to justify what you're doing so you can make a living, fine. But this moderately overweight monster actually spent ten minutes telling a couple of law students about how much he loves his job and how he actually laughs at poor people while he drives away in their busted cars and it was kind of disturbing. He just kept going on and on about how much these people suck and how fun his job is. He was noticeably worse than people in Biglaw.
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Apr 12, 2013 18:51
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Welcome to why I defend consumers and debtors for a living.
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Apr 12, 2013 22:11
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HiddenReplaced posted:Your friend is an idiot and you can't do anything about it. Anyone who goes to law school now deserves everything they get. Let's be fair. She could be going for an Mrs. Degree too. Granted she should go to a better school so the Mr. actually has a job...
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Apr 13, 2013 02:57
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wacko_- posted:Let's be fair. She could be going for an Mrs. Degree too. Granted she should go to a better school so the Mr. actually has a job... Good idea, go out of your way and into massive debt to meet Mr. Terrible-Job-Prospects-And-Poorer-Than-A-Homeless-Person, J.D.
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Apr 13, 2013 03:03
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MoFauxHawk posted:Good idea, go out of your way and into massive debt to meet Mr. Terrible-Job-Prospects-And-Poorer-Than-A-Homeless-Person, J.D. People have done dumber things for even dumber reasons. "But Mom, he's an ATTORNEY. Doc review is real lawyer work!"
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Apr 13, 2013 03:14
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