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Sheep posted:There are dudes in black vans with the naval ensign painted all over them blaring patriotic music talking about "restoring the emperor and kicking all foreigners out of Japan and restoring Japan to its glorious past" driving up and down the roads of pretty much every city in the country every weekend. 扶清灭洋
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Apr 12, 2013 02:18
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You should post English so everyone can understand 
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Apr 12, 2013 02:28
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Grand Fromage posted:Really? Germany has strict anti-Nazi laws but I can't imagine anyone getting in trouble in the US for doing the same thing. I mean we had literal (very small) Nazi rallies in my hometown, it was covered by the first amendment. I don't know enough to say you could do that in other countries but I'd think you could. Bloodnose posted:扶清灭洋 尊皇攘夷 Sheep fucked around with this message at 02:40 on Apr 12, 2013 |
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Apr 12, 2013 02:35
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Sheep posted:IANAL but I'm pretty sure you can't advocate committing genocide upon an ethnic group to their faces by saying things like "we will kill you all", even in America - not only because that would violate the "not inciting violence" provision of protected speech, but also because you would be communicating threats, which is illegal on its own. Also that is a pretty lovely derail to get into. Yeah, that's why I included the caveat--I don't want to make arguments for other western countries that I don't know as well. I don't want to derail with a who's better argument either but I am curious in the difference of free speech between the countries. Korea's constitution guarantees it basically the same way as the US, but Korea has a war powers act that allows the government to restrict freedoms as long as Korea is at war. And, well, they're permanently at war, so in practice free speech here is restricted frequently. Not as bad as when it was a dictatorship but still in striking ways to an American. What's the Japanese right like?
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Apr 12, 2013 02:41
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It is pretty cool that Japanese people can say whatever they want up to and including literally advocating genocide and repeating the Rape of Nanking. It is less cool that Japanese people are not disgusted when other people exercise their right to literally advocate genocide.
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Apr 12, 2013 02:51
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Article 21 of the constitution provides freedom of assembly, speech, and other forms of expression, and the government has been adamant about not making laws which may infringe upon such freedoms, including anti discrimination or anti racism laws. For some comedic relief, here's the semi-famous "white pig go home!" video, which starts at 2:10. Love the confused looks the guys have. Sheep fucked around with this message at 03:14 on Apr 12, 2013 |
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Apr 12, 2013 03:01
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Bloodnose posted:It is pretty cool that Japanese people can say whatever they want up to and including literally advocating genocide and repeating the Rape of Nanking. It is less cool that Japanese people are not disgusted when other people exercise their right to literally advocate genocide. Japanese are disgusted by people doing this. A lot of misunderstanding is unfortunately caused by the whitewashing of war atrocities -- by which I mean to say, many people genuinely don't know why China and Korea have these grievances or even if they are aware, don't realize the sheer extent to which they were perpetuated -- but on the whole most people really, genuinely don't have these feelings. So much so that they make the most ridiculous excuses for those who do: "It must be Zainichi Koreans acting like pissed-off Japanese and making a scene to make us look bad to the world" 
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Apr 12, 2013 03:21
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Bloodnose posted:It is pretty cool that Japanese people can say whatever they want up to and including literally advocating genocide and repeating the Rape of Nanking. It is less cool that Japanese people are not disgusted when other people exercise their right to literally advocate genocide. The demo in the video was literally like 200 people. 200 people out of the largest metropolitan area in the world. And the counter-demo was much bigger. What part of that says to you that "Japanese people are not disgusted" by it?
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Apr 12, 2013 03:34
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Bloodnose posted:It is pretty cool that Japanese people can say whatever they want up to and including literally advocating genocide and repeating the Rape of Nanking. It is less cool that Japanese people are not disgusted when other people exercise their right to literally advocate genocide. That second video posted looks exactly most Klan rallies in the States or Europe, without the near riot that we are so fond of, so that is probably not most accurate brush to paint The Japanese with.
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Apr 12, 2013 03:35
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I think he just meant that they aren't very proactive about it is all. A counter-protest is fantastic, but it's still just addressing the symptoms rather than the cause, and the problem remains that Japanese people simply aren't properly educated these days about what their country and people have done in the past, and you wind up with crazies talking about mass murdering ethnic minorities right in front of their homes and businesses. What's worse, it's certainly not going to get any better under the Abe administration.
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Apr 12, 2013 03:44
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In a way it's good, because it shows what a pathetic turn out those type of idiots get (remembering it's in a metropolis of over 32million people), and it just shows them up to be loonies. The issue is that it gets taken out of context (i.e. a small group of 10-15 people yelling out stuff that is ignored by most of the passers by ). And it's not representative at all. Also don't most of the right wingers deny that the Nanjing Massacre/Incident happened? so a person yelling that they want to Nanjing Massacre the Koreans shows how fragmented and impotent those groups are. Ie for the threat to be real, they are acknowledging that the atrocities happened. I suspect if they were truly investigated you would find the usual mentally ill people and the generic "rage against the world" kinds of people in those groups. They are "right wing" because they look back in history and see a time when Japan was strong, and are channeling all their pent up frustrations with the world into it, because they have no other outlets. In short they are sad people trying to spread their sadness. And they way to "fix" it is to simply ignore them, because otherwise you just validate their frustrations and beliefs, and give them a platform to move on with.
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Apr 12, 2013 03:51
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Yeah I'm not suggesting most Japanese people would believe or agree with what they're saying by any means. I'm aware that they can likely be compared with the American Westboro Baptist Church in terms of mainstream acceptance, but what I'm lamenting is that, unlike the Westboro Baptist Church in the United States, there isn't an outcry against these kinds of people in Japan. America has things like this. Now I'm far from being a Japan expert and I don't know the language for poo poo and I've been to the country all of twenty days, so if I'm missing a mainstream Japanese rejection of hate speech and a broader movement toward acceptance of diversity, I would be very, very happy to be wrong. Reverend Cheddar posted:Japanese are disgusted by people doing this. A lot of misunderstanding is unfortunately caused by the whitewashing of war atrocities -- by which I mean to say, many people genuinely don't know why China and Korea have these grievances or even if they are aware, don't realize the sheer extent to which they were perpetuated -- but on the whole most people really, genuinely don't have these feelings. So much so that they make the most ridiculous excuses for those who do: "It must be Zainichi Koreans acting like pissed-off Japanese and making a scene to make us look bad to the world"
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Apr 12, 2013 04:10
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Bloodnose posted:Yeah I'm not suggesting most Japanese people would believe or agree with what they're saying by any means. I'm aware that they can likely be compared with the American Westboro Baptist Church in terms of mainstream acceptance, but what I'm lamenting is that, unlike the Westboro Baptist Church in the United States, there isn't an outcry against these kinds of people in Japan. America has things like this. Their education system largely removes that part of them, at a guess. They are taught that conformity and doing whats best for society from such a young age that they can't consider much else (talking about the 25yr old + cohorts here) and the idea that there are people acting outside those boundaries is very hard for them to accept, there are exemptions to this of course. There is also so much pressure put onto them when young and lots of decisions that if you make the wrong one have long reaching implications, that most learn to just do what they have to do to get by, and that extends into their adult years. But the systems are largely tipped against the people who are all for diversity, so it's less visible than you would expect. It isn't right that that is the case in Japan, and I am not trying to use the "it's their culture" defense, but its more that because counter protests actually exist show that there is a larger depth of feeling than you are probably expecting. Also petitions on the white house site aren't really a good measure of outcry there, hell the petition for Texas to secede managed to hit the thresholds. The bikers counter protesting the church is a far better example. Wibbleman fucked around with this message at 04:31 on Apr 12, 2013 |
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Apr 12, 2013 04:28
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Wibbleman posted:Also petitions on the white house site aren't really a good measure of outcry there, hell the petition for Texas to secede managed to hit the thresholds. The bikers counter protesting the church is a far better example. Good point. I chose it because there are five different petitions each asking the same thing. I maybe wrongly assume most people know there are always counter protests to the WBC. Full disclosure I like Japan a lot and find it interesting culturally and historically and I really enjoy visiting the country. I don't want anyone to get the idea that I'm some sinophile Japan-basher. I just don't like ingrained social injustice, I guess is the way to put it. You can see my rants in the China thread about both the mainland and my adopted home of Hong Kong.
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Apr 12, 2013 05:25
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Bloodnose posted:Full disclosure I like Japan a lot and find it interesting culturally and historically and I really enjoy visiting the country. I don't want anyone to get the idea that I'm some sinophile Japan-basher. I just don't like ingrained social injustice, I guess is the way to put it. You can see my rants in the China thread about both the mainland and my adopted home of Hong Kong. Calling out the dicks/idiots doing stupid hateful things is great, its worth doing every time. It's when it changes into naval grazing about why Japan doesn't do more about it, turns into a very complicated subject. Hate speech laws and freedom of speech laws don't tend to co-exist very well, so the logistics of actually stopping the odd person doing this is a lot easier said than done. Its worth remembering that the non hateful things being done tend to not attract as much attention, so it can seem pretty lopsided even when its not. If it was marches by 50,000+ wanting to kill all Koreans or Indonesians, or Brazilians etc would be worrying. One arguably mentally disturbed girl yelling stupid stuff on a street corner is not really that worrying. The casual racism against pretty much everyone who is non-Japanese is a problem that Japan will need to deal with sooner or later, likely sooner if they don't want to get crushed in a demographic collapse. But there doesn't seem to be much political capital in doing so, so nothing gets done. It does seem to be more of a issue with the older generations, as it is not very evident in the middle aged people that I know in Japan. But that is not really a issue unique to Japan in the region, and you will experience it pretty much everywhere. The group I know is all around 35 years old and highly educated and none had any problems describing Japanese war crimes from WW2, but I didn't press too hard to not be a dick, just asked if they were aware of them. More interesting as a political development, is that Taiwan and Japan have reached an agreement to share fishing rights around the Senkaku's/Diaoyu islands. This is the deal that they have been working on since 1996 or so. http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2013/04/10/national/japan-to-let-taiwanese-fish-near-the-senkakus/#.UWeu7pOusfs, the BBC is not very generous in regards to the chinese reaction http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-22092853.
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Apr 12, 2013 07:45
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The South China Morning Post already has an editorial about that girl's call for a massacre. SCMP posted:Racism aside, the Japanese girl's reference to the Rape of Nanjing managed to evoke painful memories while eliciting hateful comments online. The editorial juxtaposes it against a restaurateur in Anhui, China, who did this:   The text says 'Yasukuni Shrine'
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Apr 12, 2013 08:45
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Bloodnose posted:The South China Morning Post already has an editorial about that girl's call for a massacre.
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Apr 12, 2013 08:48
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Yeah the joke is that the restaurateur named the bathroom of his restaurant 'Yasukuni Shrine.' Patrons can now more literally poo poo all over it.
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Apr 12, 2013 09:02
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Man, that is juvenile to the extreme. When will Chinese people learn to grow up? If you are about to mash the Report button, consider that I might just be making a reference to the fact that one person's actions do not reflect the views of the entire populace
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Apr 12, 2013 10:03
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Is that really a restaurant? It looks like an airport washroom
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Apr 12, 2013 13:29
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Colin P.A. Jones has weighed in on the (comical circus that is the) ongoing unconstitutional election fiasco. Last I checked, almost every case had finished up in the high courts, and about a quarter of the courts (4 out of 16 cases?) ruled the election results void. Not that that changed anything on the ground, though. Sheep fucked around with this message at 02:04 on Apr 18, 2013 |
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Apr 18, 2013 02:01
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It's that time of the year again! http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-22260140 quote:Dozens of Japanese MPs have visited a war-linked shrine, as multiple vessels from China and Japan sailed in waters near disputed East China Sea islands. Seriously? Is it just a cultural thing or do they not see the distinction between major war criminals and soldiers who died while conscripted to die for the Empire?
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Apr 23, 2013 07:43
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If North Korea has to launch a missile, might as well aim it at that.
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Apr 23, 2013 08:09
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Yasukuni Shrine has got to be the closest thing any country has to a "piss off the neighbors" button sitting on the head of state's desk. It's just so convenient.
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Apr 23, 2013 08:30
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The main problem is that the family that runs Yasukuni (it is not state-owned or operated) are a bunch of right wing shitbags that backdoored in the war criminals because they thought their trials were illegitimate. This also makes a lot of the arguments about "Why don't they just remove the war criminals?" pointless, since the government has no authority over a privately-owned religious monument, and the owners like it just the way it is.
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Apr 23, 2013 09:34
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Protocol 5 posted:The main problem is that the family that runs Yasukuni (it is not state-owned or operated) are a bunch of right wing shitbags that backdoored in the war criminals because they thought their trials were illegitimate. This also makes a lot of the arguments about "Why don't they just remove the war criminals?" pointless, since the government has no authority over a privately-owned religious monument, and the owners like it just the way it is. They could, you know, stop visiting the Yasukuni.
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Apr 23, 2013 09:50
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NewtGoongrich posted:They could, you know, stop visiting the Yasukuni.
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Apr 23, 2013 09:51
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NewtGoongrich posted:They could, you know, stop visiting the Yasukuni. Samurai Sanders posted:You say that like those visits aren't carefully calculated political decisions. It's not exactly crazy that people want to pay respects to the war dead.
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Apr 23, 2013 10:00
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LimburgLimbo posted:It's not exactly crazy that people want to pay respects to the war dead. edit: just like any country, conservative politicians have to show that they don't give a poo poo about anyone else in the world in order to get brownie points with their psycho nationalist backers. This is how they do it in Japan. One of the ways anyway, whaling "research" is another. Samurai Sanders fucked around with this message at 10:07 on Apr 23, 2013 |
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Apr 23, 2013 10:02
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Have any of you guys tasted whale? I still really want to eat some. I regret not seeking out some whale sushi or however they prepare it the last time I was in Japan.
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Apr 23, 2013 10:09
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Bloodnose posted:Have any of you guys tasted whale? I still really want to eat some. I regret not seeking out some whale sushi or however they prepare it the last time I was in Japan. The reason I heard for why Japan cares about whale at all (rather, why they can be manipulated into caring by the people I mentioned above) is that it was part of school lunch for the baby boomer generation, and has strong nostalgia associated with it.
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Apr 23, 2013 10:11
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Bloodnose posted:Have any of you guys tasted whale? I still really want to eat some. I regret not seeking out some whale sushi or however they prepare it the last time I was in Japan. I have. It's nothing amazing and I felt like a total oval office as well.
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Apr 23, 2013 10:14
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Bloodnose posted:Have any of you guys tasted whale? I still really want to eat some. I regret not seeking out some whale sushi or however they prepare it the last time I was in Japan. Basically tastes like raw chicken but with even less flavor. I know no one under the age of 50 who eats whale (they all agree on the 'no flavor whatsoever' point). Even the 60+ generation doesn't exactly remember it fondly; they remember it much like I remember those awful 'fiesta pizzas' that we got in elementary school. I'm guessing there's a powerful lobby group with some 'research harpoons' pointed at someone's head.
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Apr 23, 2013 10:20
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Do young ultra-nationalists eat whale to boost their credentials or anything?
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Apr 23, 2013 10:31
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Reverend Cheddar posted:Basically tastes like raw chicken but with even less flavor. I know no one under the age of 50 who eats whale (they all agree on the 'no flavor whatsoever' point). Even the 60+ generation doesn't exactly remember it fondly; they remember it much like I remember those awful 'fiesta pizzas' that we got in elementary school. I'm guessing there's a powerful lobby group with some 'research harpoons' pointed at someone's head.  It's basically like a good steak only a bit more fatty. That's Minke at least. Dunno what whales y'all are eating, the differences between Minke and Fin are pretty big and if I remember right they also get some of endangered ones.
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Apr 23, 2013 11:57
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I don't really think it's lobbyists. It's just one of those conservative axes to grind that people don't actually care that much about, but is politicized into a right-wing issue that's much larger than it should be. There are similar things among the American right wing. It stems from the kneejerk "We ain't gonna let those foreigner fuckbags tell us what to do," reaction. This same mindset is what led to the GOP voting down that most recent UN agreement on disability, in front of an elder GOP statesman, that was actually just international recognition of the already existing and popular/politically neutral Americans with Disabilities Act.
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Apr 23, 2013 13:12
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Samurai Sanders posted:You know it's political because when they visit it's an official visit as a politician, not as a private citizen. They are very clear about that. Koizumi sometimes waffled on that back in the day but as far as I know that's not the way it is anymore. I have yet to hear from a conservative German politician who visited the grave of Rudolf Hess, though.
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Apr 23, 2013 13:26
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I do think official visits to Yasukuni are lame, but it's a completely different scenario from a visit to Rudolf Hess. It's more like if Rudolf Hess was entombed in a church crypt that also housed lots of respected figures from German history, maybe like also Charlemagne and some saints or something, and they paid an official visit to that church.
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Apr 23, 2013 15:27
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From what I have heard, Germany is an absolute model of how a country in their situation should deal with their former war atrocities, across the board. Japan is...not.
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Apr 23, 2013 18:36
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Samurai Sanders posted:Yasukuni Shrine has got to be the closest thing any country has to a "piss off the neighbors" button sitting on the head of state's desk. It's just so convenient. I'm pretty sure there's a general rule that the actual PM doesn't show up, but offers token "offerings" to appease his constituents. According to wikipedia, Koizumi kept showing up and caused a major diplomatic incident as a result. Also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasukuni_Shrine quote:On December 26, 2011 a man attempted to burn down a 13 meter high gate column at Yasukuni. The incident was captured on video and the fire quickly put out by security staff. Japanese police gained an arrest warrant for a 37 year old Chinese man, who had been arrested earlier the same month for throwing Molotov cocktails at the Japanese embassy in Seoul. The man, Liu Qiang, served a 10 month sentence in South Korea for the embassy attack. Japan formally asked South Korea to extradite him, and China informally requested repatriation of their citizen. Liu stated that he was motivated by "antihumanitarian acts by the militaristic Japan," and said that his (South Korean) maternal grandmother had been a sex slave for Japanese soldiers during the war and his great-grandfather had been tortured to death for protesting. I can't imagine Korea ever giving Japan someone for an attack against the shrine, especially when the guy's defense is "My female ancestor was one of those sex slaves that Japan refuses to admit to and claims were willing prostitutes and my male ancestor was brutally killed for trying to stop it."
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Apr 23, 2013 19:32
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