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TheWevel posted:So, what does everyone think of the Volt? Are there any Volt owners in this thread? I dismissed the Volt because it only seats 4 and there are 5 of us. Have you looked at the Ford Fusion Energi? We have one on order.
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Apr 1, 2013 21:57
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I really hated the volt and I like GM. I think a regular Prius is better if a leaf won't work.
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Apr 1, 2013 22:37
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As a counter point, my parents own a volt and they (and I) love it. The touch sensitive console takes a little getting used to but it's not too bad. It drives great and throwing it into Sport mode to show it off really impresses people. Honestly, it sounds perfect for you if you want to go that route. Go for a test drive and see. Having only 4 seats can feel a bit limiting but only occasionally. If its not for you, then maybe a regular Prius is a better fit.
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Apr 2, 2013 02:19
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Elephanthead posted:On a cash basis. That is not real profit. That is saying, hey if we ignore depreciation and amortization on all we spent on this factory and designing the car we made money! If they gave the 60kwh for free then the people who bought the 60kwh for extra cash would bitch. Clearly 60kwh is a larger segment of customers too.
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Apr 2, 2013 03:22
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Lol, the two beat cops in Boston's Finest drolly talking about UBurger vs Tasty Burger.
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Apr 2, 2013 05:27
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Suqit posted:Have you looked at the Ford Fusion Energi? I have, it doesn't do it for me. It seems too big. Really if Ford just made a Focus Energi I would get that. Elephanthead posted:I really hated the volt and I like GM. I think a regular Prius is better if a leaf won't work. The Prius isn't totally off the table. I have previously owned one but currently have smallish SUV. I don't really need it now so that's what started all of this. I thought about the EV/hybrids because my commute is 15 miles each way and that's well within the range of something like the Volt. Thwomp posted:Honestly, it sounds perfect for you if you want to go that route. Go for a test drive and see. Having only 4 seats can feel a bit limiting but only occasionally. If its not for you, then maybe a regular Prius is a better fit. Yeah I'll just have to test drive it and see what I think. I'm ok with the 2+2 arrangement because 90% of the time it will just be me in the car and sometimes my dog. He'll be fine in whatever car I get.
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Apr 2, 2013 15:18
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Suqit posted:I dismissed the Volt because it only seats 4 and there are 5 of us. Have you looked at the Ford Fusion Energi? We have one on order. The Fusion Energi also offers adaptive cruise control, which can be great for long trips.
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Apr 2, 2013 16:11
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Cockmaster posted:The Fusion Energi also offers adaptive cruise control, which can be great for long trips. Eco cruise (it slowly accelerates you up to desired speed) along with adaptive cruise are just as good for in city driving. It makes sure you go light on the accelerator, keeps an appropriate following distance, and is much more fuel efficient. Combine that with the lane assist and the car will drive itself. And park itself too if you really don't wanna do any driving.
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Apr 2, 2013 16:17
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So... quasi-leasing? Tesla press release quote:Tesla Motors announced today that, in partnership with Wells Fargo and US Bank, it has created a revolutionary automotive financing product that provides the best elements of ownership and leasing to Model S customers.
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Apr 2, 2013 22:47
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TheWevel posted:So, what does everyone think of the Volt? Are there any Volt owners in this thread? My parents have owned one for about a year, and it's been pretty impressive so far. I've driven it for a few weeks while house-sitting for my parents, so I'll put in my impressions. The electric-only range is usually in the 30-35 mile range (depending on temperature), unless you're driving like a maniac while blasting the A/C on an uphill grade, it's pretty hard to get less than about 30 miles off a charge. On just the gas engine, the Volt will do 30-35mpg highway, which isn't too bad when you consider that it weighs just under two tons. The standard interior is basic but still pretty nice, and even at highway speeds with the engine running, there's almost no wind or road noise. The rear seats are pretty small, but the front seats are surprisingly comfortable even on long drives. My only complaint about the interior is that the touch screen system/center console isn't always terribly logical and can require taking your eyes off the road to do basic things like change temperature or fan speed. On the road, the Volt is surprisingly fun to drive. Despite weighing 3800lbs, the acceleration is surprisingly good (it'll try to spin the front tires from a stop if you mash the gas), and the brakes are perfectly adequate, although the brake feel can be a little twitchy thanks to the regenerative braking system. The handling is pretty sporty, and the Volt weighs enough that it soaks up bumps, uneven pavement, and crosswinds without getting tossed around much at all. The electric power steering system provides a nice amount of feedback and steering feel, and is light years ahead of the terrible "is this even connected?" lack of feedback that companies like Toyota have in their systems.
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Apr 3, 2013 05:12
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Madurai posted:So... quasi-leasing? The funny thing is, a real lease lets you take advantage of the tax deduction too - it just comes off the front-end so it lowers your actual payments, rather than being a lump sum that you apply back to 'lower' your payments as an accounting trick. Unrelated but interesting, Fiat is including 12 days of rental cars at Enterprise for 500e owners, and I had no idea they were trying to sneak that thing in at $16k (after credits) which should make it a seriously compelling option. Longer range than a Leaf, plus a thermally managed battery so probably better longevity on the battery. Too bad there's no way I'm getting much of a car seat in the back of the 500.
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Apr 3, 2013 07:56
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http://green.autoblog.com/2013/04/10/tesla-sends-ceo-to-texas-to-defend-direct-to-customer-electric-v/#continued Is there any other side to this debate? as in any reason why tesla shouldnt be able to sell factory direct in texas? am i missing something?
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Apr 11, 2013 07:56
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The only downside is that traditional dealers will get bypassed. I posted something about this happening in our state on facebook last month, and this guy that I grew up with (who is super libertarian) starting spouting off about how Tesla is trying to "break the law" by selling direct to the consumer. The dude's dad owns a dealership and he couldn't understand that if you come up with a better business model, that's a good thing, and that the dealers basically just legislated themselves a spot in the marketplace to begin with. Good riddance, I say.
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Apr 11, 2013 14:25
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You see there are these guys called dealers. These dealers have greased the local state reps and senators for decades. This has resulted in laws that entrench the dealers monopolies and also leave them exempt from financing disclosures and other consumer protections. These laws also prevent johnny come late-lies from trying to horn in on the sweet franchises without greasing some politicos. Tesla needs to pay its welcome to Texas taxes. I also don't think Texas likes electric cars being oil country.
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Apr 11, 2013 14:35
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In theory, franchises are good for the consumer because they provide choice and competition. In practice... not so much.
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Apr 11, 2013 15:07
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I only took a 10 second look, but I really don't understand Tesla's commentquote:Electric vehicles simply cannot be sold side by side with gas vehicles because they will always be a minority item in terms of sales and service volume. Existing franchise dealers have an inherent conflict of interest between selling gasoline cars, which constitute the vast majority of their business, and selling the new technology of electric cars. It is impossible for them to explain the advantages of going electric without simultaneously undermining their traditional business. Simple math shows no traditional dealer is incented to sell an electric vehicle with the same enthusiasm as the rest of their inventory. Wouldn't that also have applied to hybrid cars over the last decade? and the Nissan Leaf now? They seem to be doing ok.
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Apr 11, 2013 15:16
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The Leaf took forever to get any sales traction and most Nissan dealers hate it. Hybrids aren't fundamentally different from a usability standpoint from conventional gasoline vehicles. Nissan dealers don't mind the Leaf in terms of getting you in the door, but they'd much rather sell you an Altima.
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Apr 11, 2013 15:27
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Yeah, the dealer that I test-drove the Leaf at didn't even bother keeping the one that was actually out on the lot charged, and had to figure out how to get their showroom model a) in drive b) out of the showroom in order to test drive it. It's not as easy of a sale as a gas car (you have to deal with charging at home, possibly at work, etc) and you as a dealer have basically zero maintenance dollars coming back in from the sale. Hell, for the Leaf at least right now, they don't even really want the used ones back because people are skittish about the battery lifetime, especially in hot climates.
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Apr 11, 2013 15:43
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wilfredmerriweathr posted:The only downside is that traditional dealers will get bypassed. I posted something about this happening in our state on facebook last month, and this guy that I grew up with (who is super libertarian) starting spouting off about how Tesla is trying to "break the law" by selling direct to the consumer. The dude's dad owns a dealership and he couldn't understand that if you come up with a better business model, that's a good thing, and that the dealers basically just legislated themselves a spot in the marketplace to begin with. These laws make some sense but not in the way they are being used. There's no reason Tesla shouldn't be allowed to sell their cars, especially since they're acting as a "store" and not a "dealership" (you don't haggle with Tesla, you either buy the thing or you don't)
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Apr 11, 2013 17:02
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TheWevel posted:So, what does everyone think of the Volt? Are there any Volt owners in this thread? I got a Volt (mostly because I can't quite afford a Tesla). I like the car very much, if anything I wish I had bought it instead of leased it. My recommendation isn't totally universal though, it honestly depends on your number of passengers requirements, your commute and your current electric bill rate. If your commute each day is 20 miles or less and you never need to take 5 people in your car then it's probably one of the better electric options. Do look at what you're paying for kwh if your cost per mile is a dealbreaker. Depending on where you live, operating the volt is going to range in cost from very cheap to basically equivalent to a mid-range hybrid. Handling wise, it feels more powerful than the honda civic hybrid I used to have, drives like a regular car (possibly a little faster 0-30 and a little slower 30-60). If I had to name some cons, there's a nasty blind spot on the back/right corner (due to the hatchback pane design) and the brakes felt a little weird initially, but you definitely get used to them. Oh also, on the price. I think this is a dumb chevrolet thing, but you basically want to figure out who your top regional seller is and go to them. I had to go to LA, but prices were so much better than around where I live mostly because the place in LA gets all these volume incentives.
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Apr 13, 2013 00:36
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weese36 posted:If your commute each day is 20 miles or less and you never need to take 5 people in your car then it's probably one of the better electric options. Do look at what you're paying for kwh if your cost per mile is a dealbreaker.
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Apr 13, 2013 00:55
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grover posted:If your commute each day is 20 miles or less, than you're probably only paying about $500 a year in gas anyhow, and would have trouble cost-justifying so much as a hybrid letalone an EV. Believe it or not, the commute point is more practical than anything. It is super convenient to go 20 miles each way every weekday without tapping into your gas tank/hitting a gas station. But you still have the option to go on long weekend trips (at a very reasonable 38 mpg), so the Volt can be your primary car (as opposed to a Leaf). If my everyday commute was 40 miles each way, I wouldn't see much upside to this car since I'd still be visiting the gas station as often as with a non-plugin hybrid. I think I'd get a Prius in that situation.
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Apr 13, 2013 01:28
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grover posted:If your commute each day is 20 miles or less, than you're probably only paying about $500 a year in gas anyhow, and would have trouble cost-justifying so much as a hybrid letalone an EV. If you have the money, there's nothing wrong with buying the vehicle sans cost justification. I loving hated the Volt I drove for a few days, but whatever. Different strokes. I preferred the Prius.
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Apr 13, 2013 01:36
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Meanwhile, in Hamburg... 
Finger Prince fucked around with this message at 08:50 on Apr 13, 2013 |
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Apr 13, 2013 08:18
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Linedance posted:Meanwhile, in Hamburg... Seriously, though, will be very nice when charging stations become more common. Rather than offering tax rebates to EV car buyers, maybe communities should instead invest in free charging stations? grover fucked around with this message at 12:17 on Apr 13, 2013 |
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Apr 13, 2013 12:08
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grover posted:Rather than offering tax rebates to EV car buyers, maybe communities should instead invest in free charging stations? - At the grocery store/restaurant/movies, free with any purchase. - Integrated into parking meters, price includes charging. Note that I think this works best in a scenario where the car's charging while it's parked and the owner's off doing other things. The standalone gas station model doesn't really work since the charging takes so long. But on the other hand, standalone stations aren't even necessary since electric chargers are small and simple to set up and maintain, at least compared to a gas pump. So why not focus on getting chargers in all the places where people are parked anyway?
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Apr 13, 2013 13:59
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Progressive JPEG posted:Yeah, they could even be in straightforward places like: You never need to charge when you are close to home as you will charge when you are sleeping. The only time you need public charging is when you are going farther away from home. I can quick charge my leaf in 20 minutes and get 60 more highway miles out of it if there is an available QC where I need it. Chargers need to be on interstates and destinations like theme parks, stadiums and museums where you would drive 100 miles to get to them. Hotels would be nice also. Stores are kinda pointless unless it is an IKEA or mega mall where you might drive far since there are so few of them.
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Apr 13, 2013 15:00
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Elephanthead posted:You never need to charge when you are close to home as you will charge when you are sleeping. The only time you need public charging is when you are going farther away from home. I can quick charge my leaf in 20 minutes and get 60 more highway miles out of it if there is an available QC where I need it. Chargers need to be on interstates and destinations like theme parks, stadiums and museums where you would drive 100 miles to get to them. Hotels would be nice also. Stores are kinda pointless unless it is an IKEA or mega mall where you might drive far since there are so few of them. If you live out of gas stations on a road trip you're throwing money away. I hit at least one grocery store every day when I'm on the road.
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Apr 13, 2013 15:59
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Godholio posted:If you live out of gas stations on a road trip you're throwing money away. I hit at least one grocery store every day when I'm on the road. So you buy gas in gallon jugs and pour them in? Do you have a veggie burner? This is about "fueling the car" not your goon gut.
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Apr 13, 2013 17:35
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Elephanthead posted:You never need to charge when you are close to home as you will charge when you are sleeping. The only time you need public charging is when you are going farther away from home. I can quick charge my leaf in 20 minutes and get 60 more highway miles out of it if there is an available QC where I need it. Chargers need to be on interstates and destinations like theme parks, stadiums and museums where you would drive 100 miles to get to them. Hotels would be nice also. Stores are kinda pointless unless it is an IKEA or mega mall where you might drive far since there are so few of them. Having the chargers also be really common/ubiquitous on top of that would just be a bonus where you'd rarely need to think about your driving range at all, just like now with ubiquity of gas stations. Elephanthead posted:So you buy gas in gallon jugs and pour them in? Do you have a veggie burner? This is about "fueling the car" not your goon gut.
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Apr 13, 2013 17:45
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The EV may bring about the resurgence of the diner- cheap sit-down restaurants that take a little longer than fast food, but that's OK, because your car needs time to charge.
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Apr 13, 2013 18:11
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A co-worker of mine just picked up a Rav4 EV for under $30k (list is $49k!) after dealer, mfg and tax rebates. Tesla motor and battery, 0-60 in 6.8 (which probably feels faster than that) and a real 100+ miles of range. I am going to take it for a spin this week sometime, but it really does seem like the best EV you can own right now in the non-luxury price range. Anyone in California thinking about EVs should consider this one while dealers are blowing them out. A lot of technological bang (or whirrr) for the buck.
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Apr 13, 2013 18:19
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Blooot posted:A co-worker of mine just picked up a Rav4 EV for under $30k (list is $49k!) after dealer, mfg and tax rebates. Tesla motor and battery, 0-60 in 6.8 (which probably feels faster than that) and a real 100+ miles of range. I am going to take it for a spin this week sometime, but it really does seem like the best EV you can own right now in the non-luxury price range. Anyone in California thinking about EVs should consider this one while dealers are blowing them out. A lot of technological bang (or whirrr) for the buck. Shame the economics just doesn't work out yet. A normal Rav4 costs literally half what Rav4 EV does ($23k vs $48); at 12000 miles per year, the break-even point is like 15 years but even that's not really true because you'd need to replace the Rav4's batteries. grover fucked around with this message at 18:41 on Apr 13, 2013 |
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Apr 13, 2013 18:37
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grover posted:Even invoice is $47800 on those so something was definitely up; someone took an $18k loss on that, and I'm guessing most of it was the california taxpayer. Depends on your electricity rates and the size of the battery. But 25 miles worth of charge is probably around $1 so more like 1/4 th of that. For instance the Fusion takes 7.4 kwh to go around 20 miles. Here electricity is $.066 per kwh. So for 20 miles in South Texas electricity costs are about $.50. But our electricity rates are really cheap. Average is probably closer to a buck. That would get your break even closer to 7 years. But obviously you're being kinder to the environment. Especially if you buying electricity from a company that utilizes wind or solar.
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Apr 13, 2013 18:44
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Suqit posted:Depends on your electricity rates and the size of the battery. But 25 miles worth of charge is probably around $1 so more like 1/4 th of that. For instance the Fusion takes 7.4 kwh to go around 20 miles. Here electricity is $.066 per kwh. So for 20 miles in South Texas electricity costs are about $.50. But our electricity rates are really cheap. Average is probably closer to a buck. What would REALLY help the environmental side is trading oil for nuclear-EV.  e: Rav4 EV has a 41.8kWh battery and claims 103 miles range. Which probably means more like 60 in the real world. ($1.50 or so for a 20-mile round trip) I had used the more generous assumption of a 48 mile daily commute to maximize the advantages of the Rav4 EV for faster payback, though; 12000 miles/year would run somewhere in the area of $700-800 in CA, which is actually close to half the cost of gas (I used conservative numbers to avoid "but but" arguments when I said $2k. More realistically, 12000miles at 27 avg mpg & 3.50/gal is only $1600/year). If you only drove 20 miles/day (5000/year) in CA, you're looking at about $650 gas vs ~$350 for electric. Not a whole lot of economic incentive. grover fucked around with this message at 22:18 on Apr 13, 2013 |
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Apr 13, 2013 18:52
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grover posted:the break-even point is like 15 years but even that's not really true because you'd need to replace the Rav4's batteries. Edit: and tires and stuff I guess
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Apr 13, 2013 19:13
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grover posted:Let's be real here, though- wind and solar are fully utilized; the delta of increased demand due to EV cars is taken up by coal and natural gas. Especially at night when solar drops to 0. All EV cars are really doing is trading oil for coal. Rule of thumb for electric has long been roughly 1/3 the cost of gas, but this is in CA, which has much higher electric rates than most of the US. They also have higher gas prices so eh. $3.50? I wish. http://www.gasbuddy.com/map_gas_prices.aspx?z=1&lat=37.382813&long=-119.281250&ft=A&tl=48 Electricity is expensive too http://www.pge.com/myhome/myaccount/charges/ In a house with 3 people I believe our bill hovers around $200-$250, which means if i got a rav4 tomorrow, and went 100 miles off of 41.3kwh I would pay $14 to fill it up. Would cost me about the same to gas it up. But solar is so incentivized here theres no reason not to get it if you own a house. Its even crazier because when you buy an EV PG&E will pay you boatloads of money to sell electricity to them during the day if you have a solar setup. Making it very easy to never pay anything for electricity and never pay anything to "gas" up your EV. Also if 25% of california homes bought solar and EVs overnight the co2 emissions would drop immensely as we would have less fossil fuel plants running during the day and less ICE on the road (which emit a shitload more co2 per mile than coal). coolskillrex remix fucked around with this message at 19:43 on Apr 13, 2013 |
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Apr 13, 2013 19:36
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grover posted:Let's be real here, though- wind and solar are fully utilized; the delta of increased demand due to EV cars is taken up by coal and natural gas. Especially at night when solar drops to 0. All EV cars are really doing is trading oil for coal. This is assuming that chargers would somehow automatically start AFTER peak demand is over, and not at 5:30 when everyone gets home (this is what would probably happen, because explaining power generation and demand to consumers is like talking to a wall).
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Apr 13, 2013 22:10
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angryrobots posted:This is assuming that chargers would somehow automatically start AFTER peak demand is over, and not at 5:30 when everyone gets home (this is what would probably happen, because explaining power generation and demand to consumers is like talking to a wall). The only real cure is investing in our power infrastructure NOW because the pocos aren't going to be able to replace it all in the handful of years after EV reaches a tipping point. Sadly, what will probably happen instead is "smart" meters will be installed that charge people such astronomical costs for "peak" usage that it essentially extorts everyone to put their car chargers on a timer. And if you need to drive to the store or go out to eat or pick up little jimmy from soccer practice? Sorry, you're poo poo out of luck with a depleted car because it hasn't started charging yet. grover fucked around with this message at 22:30 on Apr 13, 2013 |
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Apr 13, 2013 22:24
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grover posted:Sadly, what will probably happen instead is "smart" meters will be installed that charge people such astronomical costs for "peak" usage that it essentially extorts everyone to put their car chargers on a timer. And if you need to drive to the store or go out to eat or pick up little jimmy from soccer practice? Sorry, you're poo poo out of luck with a depleted car because it hasn't started charging yet. Not that I'm a pessimist or anything.
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