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The only circumstances in which I found TMA's to be remotely worthwhile, is when (surprise surprise!) they're heavily involved in the competitive scene. Even if it's just katas, competition is a magnificent motivator in order to get in shape. If you want to do a TMA, you should see if they're competitive, there are tons of organizations which arrange for tournaments in all sorts of TMA's.
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Apr 14, 2013 03:37
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What TMA's have you ever seen compete? What would they even compete at?
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Apr 14, 2013 03:45
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TKD competes, kyokushin competes, judo competes, I dunno probably more compete just in how pretty they can do their katas and stuff. Those are TMA right?
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Apr 14, 2013 04:01
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Thoguh posted:What TMA's have you ever seen compete? What would they even compete at? He just said katas. Which is a good observation whenever you're up at 4am and catch a random kata competition on espn el OCHO all those guys are fit.
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Apr 14, 2013 04:21
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Novum posted:TKD competes, kyokushin competes, judo competes, I dunno probably more compete just in how pretty they can do their katas and stuff. Those are TMA right? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDp1D8UaUQQ Stuff like this is also a start. There's already San Shou, but I'm hoping things like this will push more Kyokushin-styled kung fu to start up.
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Apr 14, 2013 04:31
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Kyokoshin was founded in the 1960's, I probably wouldn't group it with other TMA's.
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Apr 14, 2013 05:09
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I didn't realize Kyokushin was so recent, my mistake.
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Apr 14, 2013 05:12
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TKD technically didn't really exist until the 1950's though, right? So it's not very "old" either.
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Apr 14, 2013 05:42
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Judo is older than Aikido, Boxing is older than any form of karate, wrestling is older than any form of kung fu. "Traditional Martial Arts" is not a useful formulation. If you're going to divide things up into categories, "Martial Arts that involve live sparring" and "Martial arts that suck" are probably the two most useful.
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Apr 14, 2013 06:34
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fatherdog posted:Judo is older than Aikido, Boxing is older than any form of karate, wrestling is older than any form of kung fu. "Traditional Martial Arts" is not a useful formulation. If you're going to divide things up into categories, "Martial Arts that involve live sparring" and "Martial arts that suck" are probably the two most useful. How about "martial arts" and "mystical Asian LARPing?"
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Apr 14, 2013 06:38
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Martial arts where your primary involvement is talking it up at parties vs Martial arts where you are stone-faced and disavow doing any sort of training at above parties.
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Apr 14, 2013 06:42
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HondaCivet posted:How about "martial arts" and "mystical Asian LARPing?" Mystical Asian LARPing even has magic spells.
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Apr 14, 2013 07:23
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Novum posted:TKD competes, kyokushin competes, judo competes, I dunno probably more compete just in how pretty they can do their katas and stuff. Those are TMA right? The whole concept of modern martial arts stems from Judo. Specifically Kano's addition of randori to training. Thoguh fucked around with this message at 17:42 on Apr 14, 2013 |
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Apr 14, 2013 17:33
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KidDynamite posted:He just said katas. Which is a good observation whenever you're up at 4am and catch a random kata competition on espn el OCHO all those guys are fit. I didn't realize there are kata competitions that are not associated with a specific art. I should have been more clear - I was wondering what venue they would use to compete. Not what they would do while competing. Thoguh fucked around with this message at 17:41 on Apr 14, 2013 |
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Apr 14, 2013 17:38
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fatherdog posted:Judo is older than Aikido, Boxing is older than any form of karate, wrestling is older than any form of kung fu. "Traditional Martial Arts" is not a useful formulation. If you're going to divide things up into categories, "Martial Arts that involve live sparring" and "Martial arts that suck" are probably the two most useful. People call it traditional martial arts because these arts are largely ceremonial and do things due to tradition, and don't evolve dramatically. Muay Thai also holds to tradition, but it evolves pretty dynamically. If people magically discover a new way to throw a more damaging kick, you can bet the Thais will be all over it. In Chinese and Japanese martial arts, they should be well aware of the sciences behind kicking, and they refuse to change because of tradition. Capoeira is also only about 60 or 70 years old, but its traditional Edit - this is also a pretty lovely attitude to have if you're not just joking around. TMAs done well are loving awesome to watch. More than anything they bring the art aspect. Guilty fucked around with this message at 17:55 on Apr 14, 2013 |
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Apr 14, 2013 17:52
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Guilty posted:Edit - this is also a pretty lovely attitude to have if you're not just joking around. TMAs done well are loving awesome to watch. More than anything they bring the art aspect. Yeah that's cool and all but arts that purport to be teaching you how to fight without doing live sparring are going to get students hurt when they take that seriously. Like I would have no problem with a traditional martial art that basically says "We're basically performance gymnastics with kicks, we'll get you into great shape but if you ever get into a fight forget all of this stuff and run like gently caress" but I rather doubt that's how most of them present themselves. Certainly none that I've ever visited. Every judo, boxing, muay thai, and bjj gym I've been in has been very clear about what aspects of their arts are actually useful in a street confrontation. That's pretty important. A student of the judo club I used to train at isn't likely to attempt an ippon seio nage on a guy brandishing a knife at him because he's been made aware that this is a stupid idea. A guy whose kempo club has him repeatedly drilling anti-knife wristlocks, on the other hand, is pretty likely to wind up getting himself stabbed. And arguing that that doesn't suck because it's forms are "loving awesome to watch" is in fact what I consider a pretty lovely attitude.
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Apr 14, 2013 21:05
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I have never been to a boxing gym where they talk about street fighting or other confrontations apart from a boxing fight.
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Apr 14, 2013 21:19
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fatherdog posted:Like I would have no problem with a traditional martial art that basically says "We're basically performance gymnastics with kicks, we'll get you into great shape but if you ever get into a fight forget all of this stuff and run like gently caress" but I rather doubt that's how most of them present themselves. Certainly none that I've ever visited. I've never been to a good decent gym that purports to train anything than what it trains well, and aggressively prove this in as many competitions as it can. Whether it's fighting in a ring or cage, or perfect wushu demos on a spring floor, or just being a monster in the roda, live competition of all kinds are what drives people to be better martial artists. Your segregation of martial arts between live sparring and 'those that suck' is completely the wrong attitude to have. People have different pursuits in life, and one is not better than the other. I've never been to a half-way decent gym for ANY martial art (kung fu, TKD, boxing, MT, BJJ) that has primarily advertised some sort of competency at street fighting. This is not to say that boxing isn't useful in a street fight, but every good boxing gym I've been to has been honest about what it does well (boxing in a ring) and not tried to promote some sort of "you can be Balrog and defeat M.Bison" attitude. If you want to learn how to street fight, then just street fight. It's the only way, and no amount of boxing or BJJ will bring you to that point. This is not to say that one is more relevant than the other in certain situations. Every good gym that trains TMA that I've visited has aggressively encouraged its students to participate in competitions, whether its wushu, capoeira, TKD, wing chun, or whatever. None of them have emphasized that theirs is the one true martial art to defeat all others or whatever. There are those crazy gyms which try to kill people with ki touches or whatever, I'm not denying that. But what I am saying is, very few gyms like that actively participate in any sort of competition at all. It's not the martial art that encourages these crazy bastards, but crazy bastards encouraging crazy bastards. People at all of these gyms are fit as gently caress, and they're pretty happy and pretty goddamn amazing at what they do, which makes me love martial arts even more. Anderson Silva laying the smack down in the cage is just as beautiful as Tony Jaa jumping 50 feet in the air and kicking 20 times. Did you know that nearly half of Muay Thai bouts are decided by acting? If it doesn't look like it hurts, you don't get any points for it. If you get knocked down, you can get back up, laugh it off, and there's no standing 8 count. I will probably end my days in love with Muay Thai, but I doubt I would be so in love if I hadn't grown up practicing wushu from a young age, up until my university days. And I still practice capoeira every now and then, and love every moment of it.
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Apr 14, 2013 21:42
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Forgive me if this goes against the rules, hopefully I didn't miss any indications that I'm not allowed to ask this kind of question here. For those who are in the Massachusetts area or who are familiar with it, would this be a good place to start learning martial arts? http://www.redlinefightsports.com/ I've been interested in martial arts my whole life but I never actually got into learning them in any form. I'm now in my early twenties and I'd really like to actually start with one. I'm not too interested in katas and I am more interested in "practical" combat, so this kind of gym that focuses on full-contact styles seems like the right fit for me. Again, forgive my noobiness.
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Apr 14, 2013 21:56
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Beeez posted:http://www.redlinefightsports.com/ I train there. It'd be a good fit. We don't have as good MT instruction as some places, but I don't necessarily see that as a problem. Our amateur fighters perform fine in local fights. Here's a broader review: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3032491&pagenumber=391&perpage=40#post406896242
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Apr 14, 2013 22:04
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fatherdog posted:Yeah that's cool and all but arts that purport to be teaching you how to fight without doing live sparring are going to get students hurt when they take that seriously. A buddy of mine has been doing traditional Wushu since he was a kid and he basically acknowledges it's more like dancing than fighting. That's probably not the norm though.
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Apr 14, 2013 22:24
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Appreciated. I don't have any particular style I'm married to, I'd just like to learn martial arts that involve actual fighting(so "traditional martial arts" are out for me) and get in better shape. So the MT thing is only really a problem if the overall training one can receive suffers as a result. But that doesn't sound like that's what you're saying, is it? Is there anywhere in the Boston/Cambridge area that's particularly highly regarded? Again, apologies for the weird questions, it's just overwhelming trying to sift through all the "Bullshido" and stuff.
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Apr 14, 2013 22:26
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Guilty posted:Competition in martial arts. I've started to change the way I use the term martial arts in my writing because of similar reasons. If there is a component of competition I refer to them as combat sports and if there is no competition I call them martial arts. I find that for the most part this separates the Asian/Mossad LARPing from actually training to fight. Also using the term sports I find helps to remove some of the, "my style is better than you style", arguments as it becomes more of conversation about the differences in combat sports performed under their specific rule sets.
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Apr 14, 2013 22:42
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attackmole posted:A buddy of mine has been doing traditional Wushu since he was a kid and he basically acknowledges it's more like dancing than fighting. That's probably not the norm though. I grew up with wushu, and competed at collegiates and nationals in the early 2000's (I lost, I sucked, but I was invited! and I was there!). It absolutely is the norm amongst real wushu practitioners. You've got weeabos in every sport, so some guys did brag about real street fights and all that, but I'd say that 90% of wushu practitioners who are dedicated to the sport know exactly what they're doing. edit: Lt. Shiny-sides posted:I find that for the most part this separates the Asian/Mossad LARPing from actually training to fight. Hell if golf is a sport, TKD most definitely is a sport. I do agree that there needs to be a diction distinction between which sports are done for sporting or aesthetic reasons, and which are done with the purpose of knocking some sucker out. I am not in a position to make that distinction though. Guilty fucked around with this message at 22:51 on Apr 14, 2013 |
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Apr 14, 2013 22:43
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Beeez posted:Is there anywhere in the Boston/Cambridge area that's particularly highly regarded? Again, apologies for the weird questions, it's just overwhelming trying to sift through all the "Bullshido" and stuff. For Muay Thai, I think both Wai Kru and Sityodtong are good. But the kickboxing instruction at Redline is plenty good.
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Apr 14, 2013 22:50
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Guilty posted:I've never been to a good decent gym that purports to train anything than what it trains well, and aggressively prove this in as many competitions as it can. Whether it's fighting in a ring or cage, or perfect wushu demos on a spring floor, or just being a monster in the roda, live competition of all kinds are what drives people to be better martial artists. Your segregation of martial arts between live sparring and 'those that suck' is completely the wrong attitude to have. People have different pursuits in life, and one is not better than the other. Congratulations on writing five paragraphs without addressing a single one of my points, I guess.
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Apr 14, 2013 22:50
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fatherdog posted:Congratulations on writing five paragraphs without addressing a single one of my points, I guess. Your point is that it's the martial art that teaches people to be weeabos, and my point is that it's the personal gym itself and has nothing to do with the martial art. Your point is that if the martial art doesn't involve live sparring, 'it sucks'. My point is that live sparring isn't the goal of all martial arts. It's all stuff that should be spelled out anyways, considering how much this thread pisses all over TMAs. It is possible to enjoy both aspects of martial arts edit: kimbo305 posted:For Muay Thai, I think both Wai Kru and Sityodtong are good. But the kickboxing instruction at Redline is plenty good. Sityodtong are one of the few real international corporation thingies that I have absolutely loved and enjoyed. Even though I am not part of their gym, the people in Pattaya were wonderful to me, and so were the people in LA. Not to mention they usually give pretty amazing instruction. I would highly recommend them. Guilty fucked around with this message at 22:58 on Apr 14, 2013 |
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Apr 14, 2013 22:54
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Guilty posted:Your point is that it's the martial art that teaches people to be weeabos, and my point is that it's the personal gym itself and has nothing to do with the martial art. Your point is that if the martial art doesn't involve live sparring, 'it sucks'. My point is that live sparring isn't the goal of all martial arts. It's all stuff that should be spelled out anyways, considering how much this thread pisses all over TMAs. It is possible to enjoy both aspects of martial arts If a fluid comes in cans, is sold in grocery stores, and called a "soft drink", and when you drink it it tastes terrible and makes you ill, it sucks as a soft drink. If said fluid happens to be very effective as a floor polisher, extremely useful for removing stains from your carpet, and an excellent industrial lubricant, it does not therefore follow that it doesn't suck as a soft drink because people have different goals in life.
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Apr 14, 2013 23:05
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Guilty posted:I've never been to a good decent gym that purports to train anything than what it trains well, and aggressively prove this in as many competitions as it can. Whether it's fighting in a ring or cage, or perfect wushu demos on a spring floor, or just being a monster in the roda, live competition of all kinds are what drives people to be better martial artists. Your segregation of martial arts between live sparring and 'those that suck' is completely the wrong attitude to have. People have different pursuits in life, and one is not better than the other. You sorta cover yourself by specifying a "good decent" gym but i dont know how thats possible. Ive been to/seen so many gyms that purport things that arent necessarily true, its the only way they make money. The millions of strip mall karate gyms in america dont as a rule tell parents "your kid wont learn anything useful about self defense, its basically just a made up thing that looks cool as an art, and theyll have fun". The vast majority of gyms (outside of top level competition oriented gyms) are based on false pretenses about what you get out of martial arts training, regardless of your goals as a student
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Apr 14, 2013 23:10
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manyak posted:You sorta cover yourself by specifying a "good decent" gym but i dont know how thats possible. Ive been to/seen so many gyms that purport things that arent necessarily true, its the only way they make money. The millions of strip mall karate gyms in america dont as a rule tell parents "your kid wont learn anything useful about self defense, its basically just a made up thing that looks cool as an art, and theyll have fun". The vast majority of gyms (outside of top level competition oriented gyms) are based on false pretenses about what you get out of martial arts training, regardless of your goals as a student I think it's because I can spot a strip mall poo poo hole from a mile away and stay away from those places. I usually check fighters or performers to see what gyms they're representing and check out those gyms, if I see a gym without a decent competitor, I don't bother. fatherdog posted:If a fluid comes in cans, is sold in grocery stores, and called a "soft drink", and when you drink it it tastes terrible and makes you ill, it sucks as a soft drink. Thanks for seeing my point. It's all about marketing and has nothing to do with the fluid at all. vvvv: whatever, we're once again at the super pedantic point of this thread, where if things aren't worded exactly the way we like them to be, then everyone else is wrong Guilty fucked around with this message at 23:42 on Apr 14, 2013 |
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Apr 14, 2013 23:13
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Guilty posted:I think it's because I can spot a strip mall poo poo hole from a mile away and stay away from those places. I usually check fighters or performers to see what gyms they're representing and check out those gyms, if I see a gym without a decent competitor, I don't bother. I will certainly allow that gyms without live sparring can certainly function as excellent exercise programs and performance arts, and if they market themselves as exercise programs and performance arts rather than martial arts I don't have any particular problem with them. As martial arts, however, they suck, much as our hypothetical fluid sucks as a soft drink.
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Apr 14, 2013 23:19
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Guilty posted:vvvv: whatever, we're once again at the super pedantic point of this thread, where if things aren't worded exactly the way we like them to be, then everyone else is wrong Taking the novel position that a martial art that doesn't actually teach you how to defend yourself sucks is not being pedantic. Words mean things.
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Apr 15, 2013 00:04
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A few pages back he accused me of being pedantic for posting why I thought it was more likely for a beginner to get injured in grappling vs. striking. I guess he thinks "you are being pedantic" means "you disagree with me but I can't make the effort to actually refute your point".
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Apr 15, 2013 00:23
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Im pretty sure this argument isnt pedantic but i also dont know exactly what the disagreement is. If the argument from guilty is "good gyms that are worth going to all have some kind of competitive element, or if they dont, then they are at least aware of/open about the limitations of the art" then its kinda tautological since most everyone here will agree that those specifications are what makes a gym good. Are you arguing anything more than that?
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Apr 15, 2013 00:30
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Okay so in an effort to keep the conversation moving, what is the difference between a sport, a martial art, and a performance art? In my opinion, a sport is a competition, the goal is to win and the method is strategy. A performance art is a show, the goal is to entertain and the method is choreography. And a martial art is a way of life, the goal is to grow and the method is practice. Focus too much on the performance aspect of martial arts and you'll overestimate your capability for self defense. But, focus too much on the competition and you'll underestimate the power of grace. I think some posters tend to forget that TMAs aren't just about visual aesthetics; grace is a virtue in itself, it isn't just another word for beauty. Also, I know someone will mention that not everyone practices martial arts as a way of life, and I'm going to take the hard line here and say that those people are not martial artists, they are hobbyists who study martial arts. And that's not because I'm trying to be exclusive, it's because people need to realize that there's a big difference between doing Judo and doing some throws in your BJJ/MMA class. If you were taught the stuff for no other reason than to help you win more fights, you weren't doing Judo (and by my definition you weren't even doing martial arts). CivilDisobedience fucked around with this message at 00:55 on Apr 15, 2013 |
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Apr 15, 2013 00:36
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edit: nm this contributes nothing edit: in order to put an end to this discussion, what's happening here is that there's a huge lexicological discrepancy between what's considered what (which is the very definition of pedantic). And none of this contributes to the discussion of martial arts, so much as semiology. Guilty fucked around with this message at 00:43 on Apr 15, 2013 |
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Apr 15, 2013 00:39
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I would also like to know which category punch dancing out my rage falls into, especially since I can drink and smoke while doing it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQf7vGBYxz4
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Apr 15, 2013 00:45
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Also I think we could all benefit from a quick mention of the analytic-synthetic distinction (IE Is semantic discussion 'pedantic' or 'meaningful'). General opinion is that semantic arguments are unproductive because they boil down to circular logic, like "All unmarried men are bachelors" is a true statement by virtue of the fact that a bachelor is, by definition, an unmarried man. This is also called an analytic position. Synthetic arguments, on the other hand, are supposed to do a better job of reflecting reality, and require more justification than a dictionary. The analytic-synthetic distinction was A Big Thing in the 20th century among logical positivists (a misnomer, this has nothing to do with optimism), and the height of that discussion produced some mind-blowing writing on the different types of truth theories (http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/truth/), but for the most part Quine and others ended the conversation by pointing out that analytic and synthetic claims aren't really that different and both have potential value. This is basically a discussion that the public got wind of at some point and never really understood, and philosophers usually file "that's just semantics" with "that's just your opinion" in the folder of "things that people say when they mean that a position is unjustified but they can't explain why." CivilDisobedience fucked around with this message at 01:29 on Apr 15, 2013 |
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Apr 15, 2013 01:26
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CivilDisobedience posted:Also I think we could all benefit from a quick mention of the analytic-synthetic distinction (IE Is semantic discussion 'pedantic' or 'meaningful'). General opinion is that semantic arguments are unproductive because they boil down to circular logic, like "All unmarried men are bachelors" is a true statement by virtue of the fact that a bachelor is, by definition, an unmarried man. This is also called an analytic position. Synthetic arguments, on the other hand, are supposed to do a better job of reflecting reality, and require more justification than a dictionary. what
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Apr 15, 2013 01:35
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CivilDisobedience posted:Also I think we could all benefit from a quick mention of the analytic-synthetic distinction (IE Is semantic discussion 'pedantic' or 'meaningful'). General opinion is that semantic arguments are unproductive because they boil down to circular logic, like "All unmarried men are bachelors" is a true statement by virtue of the fact that a bachelor is, by definition, an unmarried man. This is also called an analytic position. Synthetic arguments, on the other hand, are supposed to do a better job of reflecting reality, and require more justification than a dictionary. even though I think i agree, this post is funny. and cool as well.
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Apr 15, 2013 01:41
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