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jonathan posted:A sound bar matching the brand of the TV will be the simplest easy to use setup. The sound will be much better than the TV speakers. This is true. I'll go listen to some demo units and see what kind of difference there is. Thanks for the input! I'll report back.
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Apr 15, 2013 20:23
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Trillest Parrot posted:My dad is super hard of hearing. We just got him a new Samsung LED TV, but the speakers face towards the rear, and the TV is mounted in a corner, so the sound doesn't reflect off the wall and forward. He's asking about sound bar systems. He doesn't want a fancy surround system, so it sounds reasonable. Any suggestions for SIMPLE sound bar setups? Or would a little 3.1 be better? I want to be able to set it and forget it. He can't even figure out the giant red NETFLIX button on a remote. Also, it needs to project without being loud. (I imagine any speaker system that's set up properly will do this, but just sayin'.) Also, I'm going to be buying it for him, so I don't want to spend a lot of money Does your dad have any kind of hearing aid? You might look into telecoil adapters. That would annoy your mom way less, I would think. If he doesn't have/need a hearing aid, maybe a pair of wireless headphones? Just make sure you can get "line out" of the TV without muting the speakers, otherwise they can't watch stuff together. Just thinking outside of the box a bit. =)
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Apr 15, 2013 21:34
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Anyone have any experience with the partial deaf? Is clarity more important than volume?
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I'm thinking about dropping a dime on the Onkyo TX-NR818. Gonna sleep on it, but it looks pretty great. Anyone want to talk me out of it? It has everything I'm looking for, it is $300 more than the 717 but it has the MultEQ XT32 room calibration, which I've heard is really one of the best around. Plus it's on sale for $800, which camelcamelcamel is telling me is pretty low. I've got: Center - Polk TL3 Fronts - POLK AUDIO MONITOR70B II R Rears - POLK AUDIO RM 7 Satellite Sub - Polk Audio PSW10 A pioneer 50" GT-30 plasma Probably will end up adding the 6 and 7 channel at some point, but that's not a big deal for now. Anyone have a rec on a power conditioner though? My power fluctuates a bit too much for comfort in my (old) house. At least it's grounded. Either way, I feel like it might've contributed to the early death of my previous unit.
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Apr 16, 2013 00:27
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jonathan posted:the important factors are the sensitivity and to a lesser extent the power handling. Thanks! So when you say that I need a good sub to make it worthwhile, I'm assuming something like the impact of a Klipsch RW-12 would not be significant enough to be added alone?
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Apr 16, 2013 00:45
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RaoulDuke12 posted:Anyone have a rec on a power conditioner though? APC works fine and doesn't break the bank. Something like this maybe: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=82-303-008&ParentOnly=1&IsVirtualParent=1 Trillest Parrot posted:This is true. I'll go listen to some demo units and see what kind of difference there is. Thanks for the input! I'll report back. You may want to give Yamaha soundbars a listen. If clarity is important nothing beats headphones, but those come with their own drawbacks.
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Apr 16, 2013 05:42
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A soundbar will be plenty for him, I would focus on the easiest one to use. If a remote gets out of sync, or he has to use more than 1 remote you can guarantee he's not going to use it. My built in speakers on my TV are poo poo and I had a hell of a time with separating dialogue from background noise. Things were so bad I would have to turn on closed captioning sometimes and I'm only 32. Now some of that is probably my hearing going or more likely my ADD causing issues, but my new 3.1 system took care of that poo poo pronto. I was originally going to get a nice soundbar, but for a few extra hundred I threw together a 3.1 system on a budget.
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Apr 16, 2013 06:53
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Hob_Gadling posted:APC works fine and doesn't break the bank. Something like this maybe: Yeah, that's a good call. Let's me stay away from Monster and Belkin too. I ended up getting the J35, looks a little slicker and has a battery backup. I pulled the trigger on the Onkyo TX-NR818, we will see how it works for me. I was kind of disappointed it doesn't have airplay, but I doubt I'd really use it all that much anyway.
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Apr 16, 2013 09:19
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fozzy fosbourne posted:Thanks! So when you say that I need a good sub to make it worthwhile, I'm assuming something like the impact of a Klipsch RW-12 would not be significant enough to be added alone? What I mean is, most people buy main speakers that are lacking in the low frequencies. They set them up, think they sound good, then add the subwoofer and think "wow!" You're buying speakers that extend down lower than 80% of the store bought subs. When you decide to add a sub, if its just an average one, you're not going to get that wow factor that most people get. 2 of the klipsch rw12's will probably work, beyond that, dual rythmik fv12's. After that its either expensive subs or DIY. Personally I would either do the klipsch setup, or go DIY. 2 pre cut sealed enclosures for $250, 2 18" drivers for $360 or so. Plus an amp for $280. Add $80 for finishing supplies like paint and connectors. At that point you will have 2 4ft^3 boxes that you can hide in corners or use as side tables. They will perform better than subs in the $2000 - 3000 range.
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Apr 16, 2013 17:22
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I recently purchased a Denon 1613 and I'm adding the Mono-price speaker set posted in the OP. I was curious, do I need banana-plugs for both sides of the speaker cable or just the ends going into the receiver?
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Apr 16, 2013 23:47
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MacheteZombie posted:I recently purchased a Denon 1613 and I'm adding the Mono-price speaker set posted in the OP. I was curious, do I need banana-plugs for both sides of the speaker cable or just the ends going into the receiver? You don't NEED banana plugs at all, but you can use them at the receiver and at the speaker according to the rear images of the speaker on Monoprice's website. I don't know for sure but when I wall mounted my klipsch surrounds, I couldn't use the banana plugs because they stuck out slightly. If you're wall mounting, consider this issue. Also I think the surrounds and fronts have rear firing ports so they need to be a few inches away from the wall. I may be incorrect on that though. Best to double check.
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Apr 17, 2013 00:49
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jonathan posted:You don't NEED banana plugs at all, but you can use them at the receiver and at the speaker according to the rear images of the speaker on Monoprice's website. Thanks for the reply. I'm not having to wall mount them, I'm ordering some floor stands for the speakers though from Monoprice. I live in a poorly built apartment and would rather not risk mounting anything. I'll just order two sets of 5 pairs just to be safe.
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Apr 17, 2013 02:13
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Ran into an interesting problem with the 709. Have it hooked up to the 360 via HDMI, and set the Xbox to Dolby digital out. When the receiver goes through the startup hdmi handshake thing, it won't recognze the input as being DD until I go into the 360 control panel and turn DD off and then on again. Then it will work normally until the next time I turn on the receiver. Any thoughts?
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Apr 17, 2013 04:00
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So I just got a Denon 1613, running through four Pioneer BS-22's and a CS-22, and I'm having a bit of an issue with trying to run a turntable through the audio in jacks. It seems to be detecting pops and noise on the record as a short at the speaker, and shutting down, going into a red blinking light every half second. Restarting the amp and disconnecting the turntable fixes the immediate problem, but doesn't give me the audio setup I want. Is this the result of a lovely pre-amp with no built in ground, a bad receiver, or a general bad idea of running a record player through an AV amp? Any tips would be appreciated.
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Apr 17, 2013 04:38
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So I was watching Transformers 2 today, and my PolkPSW10 is hilariously inept at dealing with the low end of this movie. What kinds of subs carry the "Michael Bay Movie" stamp of approval? At this point do you just go DIY with a lilmike setup? A big 15" in a 4^3 ft sealed box? I think I'm regretting the PSW10 purchase if I'm already thinking about upgrading....
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Apr 17, 2013 04:54
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skipdogg posted:So I was watching Transformers 2 today, and my PolkPSW10 is hilariously inept at dealing with the low end of this movie. What kinds of subs carry the "Michael Bay Movie" stamp of approval? At this point do you just go DIY with a lilmike setup? A big 15" in a 4^3 ft sealed box? A lilmike setup is the extreme other end. How big is your room ? Tapped horn setups like the lilmike designs compromise space for absolute top end bass quality. His subs aren't named "house wrecker" and "lilwrecker" because its a clever name. They are literarily capable of breaking walls, windows and ceilings. How loud do you listen ? The dual klipsch rw12d's would most likely meet your requirements. If your budget is $600, dual klipsch would be the best bang for the buck. Above that, you could do dual rythmik fv12's, which extend down to 20hz. After that there are a number if big high power subs in the $1000 range from rythmik, HSU, SVS etc. $900 will get you 2 4cu.ft. flat pack kits, 2 18" drivers, and a behringer ep4000 amp. That would best any subwoofer setup under $3000.
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Apr 17, 2013 07:12
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jonathan posted:$900 will get you 2 4cu.ft. flat pack kits, 2 18" drivers, and a behringer ep4000 amp. That would best any subwoofer setup under $3000. This guy. I like this guy.
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Apr 17, 2013 07:28
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Imp Boy posted:Is this the result of a lovely pre-amp with no built in ground, a bad receiver, or a general bad idea of running a record player through an AV amp? Any tips would be appreciated. It's not the last one, anyway. I run my turntable through a preamp into a Denon AVR-1610 and it's working fine. Could very well be a grounding problem. I guess you've double-checked your speaker connectors already, to make sure none of them have come lose and a triggering the protection mode when contacting the chassis? Also, try a different input on the AVR.
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Apr 17, 2013 09:31
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Imp Boy posted:So I just got a Denon 1613, running through four Pioneer BS-22's and a CS-22, and I'm having a bit of an issue with trying to run a turntable through the audio in jacks. What pre-amp are you using? I can't remember ever having seen a pre-amp without built-in ground.
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Apr 17, 2013 09:58
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Gomiboy posted:Ran into an interesting problem with the 709. Have it hooked up to the 360 via HDMI, and set the Xbox to Dolby digital out. When the receiver goes through the startup hdmi handshake thing, it won't recognze the input as being DD until I go into the 360 control panel and turn DD off and then on again. Then it will work normally until the next time I turn on the receiver. Any thoughts? I cant speak with authority on this one, but I remember the old xbox360's used to boot and use 2 channel PCM during startup and system sounds. Usually only when a game was inserted would they click over to Dolby Digital mode. I have a 360 with HDMI now, but it collects dust for the most part. What happens when you load up a game ? Does it switch to DD ? Also, what happens if you load up a game without playing with the DD setting ?
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Apr 17, 2013 17:34
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jonathan posted:A lilmike setup is the extreme other end. How big is your room ? Tapped horn setups like the lilmike designs compromise space for absolute top end bass quality. His subs aren't named "house wrecker" and "lilwrecker" because its a clever name. They are literarily capable of breaking walls, windows and ceilings. I don't get to watch movies that loud that often, and when I do, it's rarely *that* loud. I can't really gauge it off the top of my head, but my receiver almost never sees more than -15db. I'll keep an eye out for a deal I can't pass up on the Klipsch (which I should have bought in the first place). No hurry though, that low frequency stuff is such a small amount of time it's not really that important. My room though is probably a challenge, the whole side of the house is wide open from the front door to the back door. Here's an image of my floorplan. The TV and equipment are in the recessed area in the family room, the floor standing speakers are right outside of it, and the sub is on the wall to the left. The study is open as well so it's a big space all considered. The house itself isn't that large. ~1700 sq ft.
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Apr 17, 2013 18:07
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FYI When I speak of DIY Flatpack enclosures, this is what I mean: http://www.diysoundgroup.com/subwoofer-flatpacks-2/4-sub-flat-pack.html You get a CNC cut enclosure, that you glue together yourself. Then add this: http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=295-472 or this: http://stereointegrity.com/index.php?id=60 And an Amp: http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_trksid=p2050601.m570.l1313.TR2.TRC1&_nkw=behringer+ep4000&_sacat=0&_from=R40 The EP4000 and EP2500 are the same amp, but the 4000 has 1500 more on the model number because marketing. Those can be had used for around $200, and around $280 new if you shop around. The amp will drive two of the above easily, and hooks up the same way as an all-in-one subwoofer, you just run your own speaker wire. The pros of the flatpack are cost, ease of assembly, and availability of parts and support, and the somewhat small footprint for the performance. They're expandable and scalable, and flexible as far as placement. The cons are the performance isn't up to part with ported enclosures and horn loaded enclosures in the ultra low bass region. So they require some form of EQ to boost them up a bit from 25hz down. Audyssey MultEQ/XT/XT32 should be fine for that. But the size and cost allow you to add multiples. 1 pair of these is roughly equivalent or perhaps a bit better than a Seaton Submersive. ($2000 - $2800) Here is a good writeup of a dude who builds 8 of these for his theater. http://www.avsforum.com/t/1461175/first-build-octo-si-18s-with-flat-packs
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Apr 17, 2013 19:57
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skipdogg posted:I don't get to watch movies that loud that often, and when I do, it's rarely *that* loud. I can't really gauge it off the top of my head, but my receiver almost never sees more than -15db. I'll keep an eye out for a deal I can't pass up on the Klipsch (which I should have bought in the first place). No hurry though, that low frequency stuff is such a small amount of time it's not really that important. The twin rw12-d's will suit your needs. Also, when movie watching, consider closing doors and windows to reduce and seal off the airspace to be as small as possible. Also make sure to run your speaker calibration while everything is shut, that way when it's time for serious movie or music listening, your speaker levels and sub will be matched under your listening conditions. It may or may not make a detectable difference, but it's always a good idea to tweak and maximise your current setup before throwing money and parts at it to "fix" stuff. At the end of the day though, it's hard for a single 10" low powered low excursion driver to fill an airspace that is potentially 13,000 cubic feet.
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Apr 17, 2013 20:45
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skipdogg posted:I think I'm regretting the PSW10 purchase if I'm already thinking about upgrading.... How do you have it set up in your receiver? The PSW10 is more than enough to deal with these movies. This sub has shaken my apartment so hard that I thought an airplane crashed into it until I realized it was actually the sub. (Not kidding, I actually got up and looked in my bedroom until I realized what was going on) For being a budget sub, it is actually quite amazing. The fact that it can keep up with my Maggies says quite a lot. I can easily afford bigger, more expensive subs. But my PSW10 has been one of those hidden gems you rarely find. It doesn't fart, it's very tight, and it can punch you in the gut. Philthy fucked around with this message at 17:10 on Apr 18, 2013 |
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Apr 18, 2013 17:03
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I'm going to rerun the YPAO setup again today. I'm working from home and will have a few hours with no one else in the house to play with it. Right now I have the front and center speakers setup as 'small', crossover set to 80hz. Not sure what other info you need? I haven't messed with room placement at all either. It's just on a wall next to the left front speaker. In general the sub is fine for normal TV watching, most movies, and definitely for music. Very happy with it. I just happened to watch Transformers 2 the other day which is non stop booms from the robots crashing around and it really started showing it couldn't handle it. Not sure how to measure that stuff, but that was the only time I've found it lacking so far. Its rare I can really crank things anyway with the small kids in the house.
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Apr 18, 2013 17:22
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I need some help/suggestions please. The monoprice hi-fi set recommended in the OP is out of stock until mid May and I would like some speakers by next week since I ordered the receiver and everything for my birthday next week. Does anyone of some suggestions for a 5.1 set, preferably under 300$? I may be able to get a hold of two Bose speakers for a front or back pair, but it's not a sure thing. I have a Denon 1613 receiver if that helps.
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Apr 18, 2013 17:26
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The Energy Take Classic 5.1 system sometimes goes on sale for 299.99 and is what the Monoprice system is based off of. It's running 399.99 right now on NewEgg and Amazon and is usually the defacto recommendation for inexpensive 5.1 systems. NewEgg currently has the Klipsch HD 600 system on sale for 299.99, while Amazon has the Energy RC-Micro 5.1 system on sale for 349.99 right now. I don't have personal experience with either of those, but months of doing homework on surround sound has shown those to be some of the less lovely 5.1 systems out there around that price range. If you have a Fry's near you they're doing clearance on most of their Home Audio to make way for the 2013 model year stuff, might be worth stopping by to see what they have. Also I know the company sucks, but sometimes Best Buy can have a killer open box deal in a local store. You can use their website to look at open box/clearance stuff by store.
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Apr 18, 2013 18:22
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skipdogg posted:Good suggestions. Thanks for the reply. It's seeming like I may be able to get two Bose 901s for free(from parents not using them). Any suggestions on economical matches for sub, center, and the other pair?
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Apr 18, 2013 19:43
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It looks like I managed to sort out the shutdown issue on the denon 1613. I was running it with the volume cranked on direct input mode, and I believe it detected a pop on the record as a volume spike and shut down to protect the speakers. Running in stereo mode seems to have solved it. Pre amp is a lovely pyle 444, which has a ground from the turntable.
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Apr 18, 2013 20:21
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Philthy posted:How do you have it set up in your receiver? The PSW10 is more than enough to deal with these movies. This sub has shaken my apartment so hard that I thought an airplane crashed into it until I realized it was actually the sub. (Not kidding, I actually got up and looked in my bedroom until I realized what was going on) For being a budget sub, it is actually quite amazing. It depends on the room and listening habits. Your room may boost bass frequencies enough that it doesn't have to work hard, his is in a very open room. He might be cranking the volume up louder than you as well. Here are some measurements of the psw10 and the klipsch rw12d. http://www.avsforum.com/t/1457357/polk-psw10-omnimic-frequency-response-graphs http://www.avsforum.com/t/1390563/klipsch-rw-12d-omnimic-frequency-response-graphs The consensus is: The polk is good value at $80, as long as you don't go over 90db (thats a full 25db below reference). If you could get 2 of the Polk's, that could get you 96db (in his room) and sound clean. It's still lacking on low bass though. Seems to cut off in the 30's. Seems like the polk would be perfectly acceptable for most music, and works well for someone who hasn't been spoiled by high quality setups.
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Apr 18, 2013 23:32
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Imp Boy posted:Pre amp is a lovely pyle 444, which has a ground from the turntable. Good thing you fixed it. If you are going to change the pre-amp I've been told that these choices are dependable: The cheapo: http://www.amazon.com/Behringer-PP400-Ultra-Compact-Phono-Preamp/dp/B000H2BC4E/ref=pd_cp_MI_1 Best value: http://www.amazon.com/ART-II-Preamplifier-Outputs-Switchable/dp/B000AJR482/ref=pd_cp_MI_0 Serious hobbyist: (with USB, but really now...) http://www.amazon.com/Rega-Fono-Min...a+Fono+Mini+A2D (without USB) http://www.amazon.com/Cambridge-Audio-640P-B-Phono-Preamp/dp/B00106E67G/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top
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Apr 19, 2013 01:04
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skipdogg posted:I'm going to rerun the YPAO setup again today. I'm working from home and will have a few hours with no one else in the house to play with it. Try dropping the cross over to about 50 for your mains. On the sub, leave the LFE at max, and set your receiver crossover for it to around 60. At around 80, you're basically making the sub do all the low end. Your mains can put out decent low/mids, so don't starve them. A subs job is to enhance the sound you already have, and fill in for areas you can't reach. Also, yes, your room is larger than what I am hearing, but I think it should still be enough. Unless I have some magical sub god that has blessed me. Philthy fucked around with this message at 02:33 on Apr 19, 2013 |
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Apr 19, 2013 02:28
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Hob_Gadling posted:Good thing you fixed it. If you are going to change the pre-amp I've been told that these choices are dependable: Thanks, I've got it cooperating pretty well at the moment, no repeats of the earlier problems. I'll probably just run another grounding wire to a screw on the receiver to make sure the ground is solid and save some headaches.
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Apr 19, 2013 06:06
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I'm having a similar issue with my PSW10. It sounds great for all music and most movies, but a few movies that have the michael bay/jj abrams-esque low rumbing noises cause clipping with the sub. Clipping might not be the right term, but it makes this awful popping sound. If the issue is that it can't respond to those super low frequencies, is there a way I can filter them out? I've got it hooked up to a TX-NR414 with the crossover set at 80hz in the receiver. I realize this sets the upper frequency limit - how can I set a lower limit?
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Apr 19, 2013 19:51
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the nicker posted:I'm having a similar issue with my PSW10. It sounds great for all music and most movies, but a few movies that have the michael bay/jj abrams-esque low rumbing noises cause clipping with the sub. Clipping might not be the right term, but it makes this awful popping sound. What you're looking for is a "high pass filter" for the sub. This is very common, they're used to filter low tones (they allow the high tones to pass, hence the name). This also may be called a "rumble filter". Generally, ported enclosures, and horn enclosures create distortion below the tuning frequency. Your receiver and sub don't have this option. Sealed enclosures usually don't have this problem, as they don't have a tuning frequency. The air behind the cone in the enclosure acts as a cushion or spring, keeping the cone from over-traveling. This is why some people equate a sealed box with better sound quality. In actuality, the sealed enclosure simply keeps the sub from going low/loud enough to expose issues. In your case, you've got a couple options: Add a signal processor: The minidsp goes in line between your receiver and sub, and allows you to add all sorts of filters, EQ etc. http://www.minidsp.com/ It will run you around $100. Seal up the port: Get some dense foam, or fine a way to plug the port. Then re-run your calibration. You will fine that a sealed enclosure will gradually slope off the low frequencies where as the ported enclosure keeps a more flat response until the tuning frequency and then drops off quickly, and adds distortion and port noise. With the port plugged, you won't get port noise, and overall the sub won't perform as loudly, but it may lower distortion. You can compensate by turning up the gain some. The calibration setup in the receiver should allow you to adjust the sub so that it matches again.
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Apr 19, 2013 20:27
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Philthy posted:Try dropping the cross over to about 50 for your mains. On the sub, leave the LFE at max, and set your receiver crossover for it to around 60. At around 80, you're basically making the sub do all the low end. Your mains can put out decent low/mids, so don't starve them. A subs job is to enhance the sound you already have, and fill in for areas you can't reach. I disagree with this, the sub's issue isn't the available wattage, it's more about asking frequencies from it that the enclosure just won't do without distortion. It takes much much less power from an amp to play at 80hz than it does at 20hz, as sensitivity is generally much higher up top. And while I disagree, it's not really a wrong answer. Playing with the crossover regions may fix or cause frequency nulls in the room, so it's certainly worth experimenting with. Also, he should do the sub crawl, the sub may be placed in a poor location compared to yours. In the end, it's what sounds the best. Getting there requires guess work.
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Apr 19, 2013 20:38
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I decided to pick up the Harman/Kardon AVR370, and so far it has been a great update from my old H/K reciever. But there is one problem. The unit I've got has some annoying loud buzz while it is on. Is this normal for this model?
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Apr 19, 2013 21:49
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jonathan posted:What you're looking for is a "high pass filter" for the sub. This is very common, they're used to filter low tones (they allow the high tones to pass, hence the name). This also may be called a "rumble filter". Very informative, thanks! I like option A better since I'm very happy with the sound as it is (aside from the rumbling) so I don't want to go and change something fundamental to the sub's design. Also the 414 does not have audyssey so there's no auto calibration that I'm aware of. What about these guys as a cheaper alternative to the minidsp? http://www.amazon.com/FMOD-Crossover-Pair-High-Pass/dp/B0006N41CO/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1366404113&sr=8-2&keywords=high+pass+filter
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Apr 19, 2013 21:50
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the nicker posted:Very informative, thanks! I like option A better since I'm very happy with the sound as it is (aside from the rumbling) so I don't want to go and change something fundamental to the sub's design. Also the 414 does not have audyssey so there's no auto calibration that I'm aware of. Does the 414 come with a microphone ? For some reason I thought it did level adjustments to match up the speakers. I would still try sealing the sub. Just stuff a sock in the port and then see how it sounds with low frequency stuff. That high pass filter looks interesting. No info on how steep a filter it is. For example it may start cutting frequency at 30 with a steep slope, or it might start cutting off higher up with 30hz being the -3db point. Hard to know unless you can find a more detailed product page. Before you do anything though, try placing your sub at the main listening position, play a repetitive bass heavy song, or a YouTube bass test tone, and then crawl around the walls and front and rear of the room and see where the bass sounds tightest and loudest. That will generally be the best place to put the sub. It could be the current position has the subwoofer fighting against the room to get the sound out. jonathan fucked around with this message at 22:07 on Apr 19, 2013 |
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Apr 19, 2013 22:04
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jonathan posted:Does the 414 come with a microphone ? For some reason I thought it did level adjustments to match up the speakers. It does not. My older onkyo did but not this one. I believe the 515 and up have it in the NR series. I'll try the sock thing I guess, it doesn't cost anything to try. Unfortunately I can't find much info about these filters and the website for the company that makes them ( http://www.hlabs.com ) is... bad. The reviews sound promising though, people are using them for exactly the same purpose - ported subs with no subsonic filter.
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Apr 19, 2013 22:12
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jonathan posted:In the end, it's what sounds the best. Getting there requires guess work. Yep, and was just offering what my settings were using speakers that are in the same range as his as well. My sub is actually a foot away from a corner, and against the back wall (Again, something generally NOT recommended). But if you spend the time fiddling, you may end up where I did. Philthy fucked around with this message at 23:43 on Apr 19, 2013 |
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Apr 19, 2013 23:39
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