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mind the walrus posted:Oh good, that'll fix the legions of kids/morons who hate Superman because he's "too powerful" and like Batman because he's "realistic." For a truly realistic Batman, his legs should pull a Kevin Ware from time to time.
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Apr 11, 2013 14:36
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mind the walrus posted:Oh good, that'll fix the legions of kids/morons who hate Superman because he's "too powerful" and like Batman because he's "realistic." Should have just called it the "kick Superman in the dick simulator 3000" and punched out for the week. The full story mode is out on The Tubes and that isn't really how it plays out.
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Apr 11, 2013 14:39
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mind the walrus posted:Oh good, that'll fix the legions of kids/morons who hate Superman because he's "too powerful" and like Batman because he's "realistic." Should have just called it the "kick Superman in the dick simulator 3000" and punched out for the week. Man of Steel is supposed to be the remedy for that, at least if it doesn't turn out to be garbage
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Apr 11, 2013 16:54
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Fantastic Four #5AU: The FF get called back from their science adventure to help with Ultron's attack on the planet. poo poo starts going south real fast. Meanwhile, back on their timeship, Franklin and Val get woken up by the automated video last goodbyes of the family starting up. Johnny takes things lightly because he doesn't think they're gonna die, and because he stresses to the kids that he knows firsthand that death isn't necessarily final. Ben comes clean to the fact that back in college, he fooled around with Reed and Doom's experiment and thus may be ultimately responsible for unleashing Dr. Doom on the world. Reed's is most touching though.  He then promptly gets killed by a bunch of self-destructing Ultrons.
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Apr 13, 2013 07:04
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They literally traveled to heaven one time though. That's a thing they did. I don't really get hard skeptic atheists in a setting where you can raise the dead for 5 dollars and some pogs. Unless he means "There is no god, heaven or hell. There are like 9 trillion gods, heavens, and hells. I think we visited some of them on a school outing once.".
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Apr 13, 2013 07:17
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Boogaleeboo posted:They literally traveled to heaven one time though. That's a thing they did. I don't really get hard skeptic atheists in a setting where you can raise the dead for 5 dollars and some pogs. Unless he means "There is no god, heaven or hell. There are like 9 trillion gods, heavens, and hells. I think we visited some of them on a school outing once.". Well, if you know (from experience) that there's always a WORSE Hell, then you'd probably not believe in the singular "worst place ever" Hell. Like, people can be tortured for all eternity by your average supervillain, so Satan isn't really much of a threat or boogeyman to scare kids into following the rules. That being said, Reed being an atheist is just a stereotype of "a man of science" since, yeah, God exists in the Marvel U and can be telephoned by several people.
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Apr 13, 2013 07:21
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Mister Roboto posted:Well, if you know (from experience) that there's always a WORSE Hell, then you'd probably not believe in the singular "worst place ever" Hell. They visited the most powerful God in the Marvel Universe at one point Fantastic Four 511  
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Apr 13, 2013 07:27
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Mister Roboto posted:Like, people can be tortured for all eternity by your average supervillain, so Satan isn't really much of a threat or boogeyman to scare kids into following the rules. His son also was tortured in hell. "Remember that time you were so traumatized by being in hell that you had flashbacks and poo poo about for awhile? If you are bad you will go there forever". Of course I suppose it's harder to make that sell when you have to say "You know, if you weren't totally omnipotent and going to outlive this entire cycle of reality". His daughter is just really smart though and otherwise mortal, so she can *totally* suffer for all eternity for what is sure to be a lifetime of mistakes, just like her dad!
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Apr 13, 2013 08:05
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This conversation happens every time a comics character and atheism get brought up at the same time, but... If you can go visit God, the way Reed has done (several times), then God becomes knowable, measurable, understandable. He becomes a thing that can be understood, that falls within the realms of Science. He's no longer an article of faith - he's quantifiable. He may be, therefore, a god - but he cannot be God, in the sense that we think of Him. You can accept the existence of supremely powerful entities without necessarily buying into the religion that features them. Anyways, that's how I rationalize it.
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Apr 13, 2013 08:31
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Just pretend I posted an image of Spider-man saying vampires can't exist.
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Apr 13, 2013 08:57
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 Savage Dragon I prefer God when He doesn't mess about and gets to the point.
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Apr 13, 2013 09:02
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DivineCoffeeBinge posted:This conversation happens every time a comics character and atheism get brought up at the same time, but...
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Apr 13, 2013 20:33
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DivineCoffeeBinge posted:This conversation happens every time a comics character and atheism get brought up at the same time, but... To expand on this, since Reed has encountered countless "godlike" beings, and visited various analogues to heaven and hell, the whole concept of a supremely powerful, ineffable God is rendered trivial. Every phenomenon that we earthlings attribute to gods has been explained at one time or another by alien physiology, hyper-advanced technology, previously unknown exotic energy (Power Cosmic), parallel realities and time travel. Or magic, but even then, magic is (or should be) considered a valid field of scientific study in the Marvel universe. Basically, Reed Richards has seen every miracle in the book, and found a verifiable, evidence-based explanation for each and every one of them.
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Apr 13, 2013 21:22
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DivineCoffeeBinge posted:This conversation happens every time a comics character and atheism get brought up at the same time, but... As a quote from Discworld puts it, "It'd be like believing in the postman."
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Apr 13, 2013 21:37
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Chaos Hippy posted:Basically, Reed Richards has seen every miracle in the book, and found a verifiable, evidence-based explanation for each and every one of them. That explanation is "Miracles and magic and souls and all that poo poo is real", is the thing. The fact you can sell your apparently very real soul to a being where it will go to a reality to suffer for all time because of it isn't meaningfully altered because you don't want to say "Hell" or "demon" or "soul". It's still true, and quantifiable. You could say 'alternate plane of existence" and "alien" and all it does is make you look like a douchebag when you have to tell people "So yeah, there appears to be a system for determining some sort of objective morality, and if you transgress against that system you will suffer for eternity in h...an alternate reality tormented by de....aliens". What an awesome win for secularism!
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Apr 13, 2013 22:21
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Also, how does he stretch so much? Doesn't make sense.
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Apr 13, 2013 22:36
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Boogaleeboo posted:That explanation is "Miracles and magic and souls and all that poo poo is real", is the thing. The fact you can sell your apparently very real soul to a being where it will go to a reality to suffer for all time because of it isn't meaningfully altered because you don't want to say "Hell" or "demon" or "soul". It's still true, and quantifiable. You could say 'alternate plane of existence" and "alien" and all it does is make you look like a douchebag when you have to tell people "So yeah, there appears to be a system for determining some sort of objective morality, and if you transgress against that system you will suffer for eternity in h...an alternate reality tormented by de....aliens". Thing is, we don't typically see - in the Marvel Universe - people sent to Hell (any of the many, many Hells) for being bad. It's implied here and there, but as a general rule the people we see sent to Hell get sent there because they made deals with demons. Even Dr. Doom's mother ended up in Hell because she cut a deal with Mephisto. poo poo, some of the dudes that do that get superpowers (see Blaze, Johnny). The "objective morality" you're referring to appears to be "don't sell your soul and you're fine," which isn't exactly the kind of tenet one builds a religion on. It's not hard to say "there are extradimensional beings who can lay claim to some aspect of your consciousness, which the more mystically-inclined might call 'souls,' but that doesn't mean we need the carrot of Heaven and the stick of Hell to guide our activities, and it doesn't mean we need to buy into the trappings of any given religion." Which would appear to be Reed's point of view.
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Apr 13, 2013 22:55
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TwoPair posted:Fantastic Four #5AU: The FF get called back from their science adventure to help with Ultron's attack on the planet. poo poo starts going south real fast. Meanwhile, back on their timeship, Franklin and Val get woken up by the automated video last goodbyes of the family starting up. Johnny takes things lightly because he doesn't think they're gonna die, and because he stresses to the kids that he knows firsthand that death isn't necessarily final. Ben comes clean to the fact that back in college, he fooled around with Reed and Doom's experiment and thus may be ultimately responsible for unleashing Dr. Doom on the world. Reed's is most touching though. Even when I was an annoying Teenage Atheist, I didn't have any problem with the idea of God existing in a comic book universe. Hell, it was a critical plot point for some of my favorite stories. I understand the point Reed's trying to make, that you don't do good deeds in hopes of earning some divine reward because being a good person won't stop aliens from eating your soul, or Dr Doom from sending your kids to hell. Those panels just come across as a clumsy attempt to generate emotional impact and fill space, but the obvious logical contradictions detract from the intended effect. Anyways, Beta-Ray Bill said it better, and with less panels. 
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Apr 13, 2013 23:17
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What's the source of this?
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Apr 14, 2013 00:53
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Dr. Hurt posted:What's the source of this? Secret Invasion Aftermath: Beta Ray Bill - The Green of Eden: SVU: Bill runs into some Skrulls that are having a crisis of faith and want to worship him as a God. Gillen needs to write more cosmic stuff.
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Apr 14, 2013 01:14
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Avulsion posted:Secret Invasion Aftermath: Beta Ray Bill - The Green of Eden: SVU: Bill runs into some Skrulls that are having a crisis of faith and want to worship him as a God. Gillen needs to write more cosmic stuff. He is doing Iron Man in space right now. It just needs a better artist.
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Apr 14, 2013 01:16
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Avulsion posted:Anyways, Beta-Ray Bill said it better, and with less panels. That's almost perfect.
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Apr 14, 2013 05:17
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It's almost kind of comical coming from a space-horse empowered by the Norse gods.
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Apr 16, 2013 07:18
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SynthOrange posted:It's almost kind of comical coming from a space-horse empowered by the Norse gods. You can believe in gods without worshiping them.
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Apr 16, 2013 07:20
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A space horse in a feathery hat.
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Apr 16, 2013 07:38
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SynthOrange posted:It's almost kind of comical coming from a space-horse empowered by the Norse gods. "Comical" THAT's where you draw your believability line? 
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Apr 16, 2013 13:14
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Avulsion posted:You can believe in gods without worshiping them.
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Apr 16, 2013 13:18
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Avulsion posted:You can believe in gods without worshiping them. That's not belief though, they're right there. As for the whole hell thing, it makes sense if you just call it lying/parenting.
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Apr 16, 2013 13:29
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DivineCoffeeBinge posted:Thing is, we don't typically see - in the Marvel Universe - people sent to Hell (any of the many, many Hells) for being bad. It's implied here and there, but as a general rule the people we see sent to Hell get sent there because they made deals with demons. Even Dr. Doom's mother ended up in Hell because she cut a deal with Mephisto. poo poo, some of the dudes that do that get superpowers (see Blaze, Johnny). The "objective morality" you're referring to appears to be "don't sell your soul and you're fine," which isn't exactly the kind of tenet one builds a religion on. Hell in the DC universe is a little bit more hardcore: 
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Apr 16, 2013 15:20
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Alhazred posted:Hell in the DC universe is a little bit more hardcore: Hell in the DC universe is also where people want to go because they believe they deserve to be punished, if the bits of it we see in Sandman are any indicator. Which would say all kinds of things about the panel you posted.
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Apr 16, 2013 16:00
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SynthOrange posted:It's almost kind of comical coming from a space-horse empowered by the Norse gods. What's a god worth to someone who can kick the poo poo out of most of them?
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Apr 16, 2013 17:49
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Wade Wilson posted:Hell in the DC universe is also where people want to go because they believe they deserve to be punished, if the bits of it we see in Sandman are any indicator. A much later Swamp Thing had him return to Hell, and we learn that the various enemy forces that died on Earth during the Invasion! cross-over event had to go to Earth Hell instead of their own. They have some interesting interpretations. My favorite though is the shape-changing Durlans, who don't actually believe in Heaven or Hell, and instead their afterlife is to assume the perfect shape-a cube. Queue a big ol wall of Durlan cubes sitting in Limbo.
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Apr 16, 2013 19:09
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Wade Wilson posted:Hell in the DC universe is also where people want to go because they believe they deserve to be punished, if the bits of it we see in Sandman are any indicator. They can also be sent there if they refuse to love an endless. That was such a dick move.
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Apr 16, 2013 19:11
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I always found this guy kinda sad.   Sandman 23
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Apr 16, 2013 19:41
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bobkatt013 posted:They can also be sent there if they refuse to love an endless. That was such a dick move. Having Death call Dream out on that poo poo was pretty good, though.
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Apr 16, 2013 19:57
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Uthor posted:I always found this guy kinda sad. That whole thing was so well written that I spent an hour or so researching to see if Breschau actually existed
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Apr 16, 2013 19:58
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Madkal posted:That whole thing was so well written that I spent an hour or so researching to see if Breschau actually existed It's probably another copy of Vlad Teppes or some such.
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Apr 16, 2013 20:08
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Madkal posted:That whole thing was so well written that I spent an hour or so researching to see if Breschau actually existed Thanks for saving me an hour.
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Apr 16, 2013 20:20
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It is sort of genius that he is not real since it proves Lucifers point - he was forgotten.
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Apr 16, 2013 20:22
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Atmus posted:It's probably another copy of Vlad Teppes or some such. Yea it takes things from Vlad but Vlad wasn't the only sadistic ruler at the time. That kind of brutality was pretty much par for the course for most insane rulers throughout history. I would love to ask Gaiman who the true inspiration was.
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Apr 16, 2013 20:39
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