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Does anyone have any general tips for running a Monsters and Other Childish Things campaign? edit: It seems I have the supernatural ability to start a new page with my replies. Dammit.
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Apr 17, 2013 13:44
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sebmojo posted:I played it pretty straight, just gave each player two characters and went for it. Was a blast. With the single precondition that everyone understands dying is part of the fun, it is a Good Module. I was thinking about this the other day. What AD&D/OSR is to D&D 4e, the original Tomb of Horrors is to AD&D. Tomb of Horrors has more in common with the computer adventure games that were just coming out around then (1978, around the time Scott Adams was writing games, and just before Sierra's graphical ones) than it does with AD&D, and therefore sets very different expectations. When I say it's a bad module, I am being hyperbolic. It's a bad fit for RPGs as they are conventionally understood today, and was a bad fit for AD&D campaign play even at its original publication. Tomb of Horrors is a string of set-piece encounters in the D&D tradition, but the majority are crippling or lethal, and trial-and-error is the only way to avoid most of those (aside from luck). I can absolutely see how running it would be really fun, in the same way that Paranoia is really fun but not suited to campaign play either. The difference is that Paranoia does not inherit a different set of expectations from the parent game, and Tomb of Horrors does.
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Apr 17, 2013 15:17
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EVIR Gibson posted:Does anyone have any general tips for running a Monsters and Other Childish Things campaign? Include me, if you're running it through IRC. Seriously, I've never played this game before and I really really want to.
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Apr 17, 2013 15:35
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Pththya-lyi posted:Include me, if you're running it through IRC. I'll let you know if I do. I'm running it this weekend and I have lots of things planned out and also a few key points that the players might take a different way. It's going to go over two weekends so I am hoping to get to one real good cliffhanger on the first day.
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Apr 17, 2013 15:42
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Liesmith posted:lots of people love 'coming up with that bullshit' so if you're one of those guys by all means get as granular as you feel. One of my only real beefs with the SA tradgames crew is the hate for the background prep. You can go full on gygaxian naturalist with fully realized cities and dungeon ecosystems and 10,000 years of elf history if you like. Lots of great stuff comes out when you do that. I think the problem with this is there is a difference between "anal retentive levels of game world detail when world building" and "making your players experience every single detail of that game world/expecting them to know or remember extremely arcane minutia regularly"*. Usually there is large overlap. My current campaign has a lot of world building in it, but I only make my players sit through me telling them stuff that is immediately relevant unless they say "I want to learn more about X". *There's nothing wrong with hiding clues to the BBEG's identity in your 5-page essay on the Wars Of Elven Succession, but you shouldn't be expecting the party to remember the full name of the executive officer of the 5th Wood Elf reserve archer division because it was on the list of commanders present at the battle of Obscurihiem.
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Apr 17, 2013 16:13
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P.S. STILL COMPLETELY DEVOID OF MERIT
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Guesticles posted:I think the problem with this is there is a difference between "anal retentive levels of game world detail when world building" and "making your players experience every single detail of that game world/expecting them to know or remember extremely arcane minutia regularly"*. Usually there is large overlap. Sure, absolutely. I totally agree. I just think that too many people around here think that it's retarded to even name the XO of the Wood Elf Reserve when actually it's totally cool and fun for everyone involved, as long as his name isn't a pile of retarded consonants or something.
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Apr 17, 2013 16:35
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Liesmith posted:as long as his name isn't a pile of retarded consonants or something. Hey! I'll have you know my grandfather's name was Ltdi'v'rfluw! You prick.
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Apr 17, 2013 17:54
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Guesticles posted:I think the problem with this is there is a difference between "anal retentive levels of game world detail when world building" and "making your players experience every single detail of that game world/expecting them to know or remember extremely arcane minutia regularly"*. Usually there is large overlap. This ties in to my worldbuilding mantra: "The stuff the players care about is Important, and the stuff they don't care about should not be Important." It is very, very tempting to build an intricately detailed world with things that might be Plot Relevant strewn throughout every nook and cranny you can find... but if explaining these things bores your players, then don't explain them. And don't then turn around and say "well, you could have uncovered the Big Bad's Evil Plot if you'd only listened to my seminar on Class Mobility in the Gnomish Enclaves of the Eastern Plains!" As a GM your job is to keep your players interested. No matter how interesting you find the worldbuilding, it's their interest level that has to govern gameplay. Stuff that interests them is the stuff you focus on; stuff that bores them is the stuff you gloss over.
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Apr 17, 2013 18:09
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Guesticles posted:I think the problem with this is there is a difference between "anal retentive levels of game world detail when world building" and "making your players experience every single detail of that game world/expecting them to know or remember extremely arcane minutia regularly"*. Usually there is large overlap. I take this in completely the other direction: Spend time fleshing out the pivotal NPCs to the Nth detail, so that they are relatable, emotional, people and multi-purpose instead of throw-away cardboard cutouts with 1 paragraph of quest text. My goal is to get the players/characters as personally/emotionally involved in the setting and story as possible (by giving them examples to model themselves off of or relate to), because IMHO character drama is what makes for truly great stories. The setting needs only be a framework to hang the main story arc events upon; that way, you can build whatever minutia into it post-facto, to service the goals/desires of the PCs and make meaningful, desirable story hooks that facilitate character growth and development. I probably sound like a 
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Apr 17, 2013 20:41
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P.d0t posted:I take this in completely the other direction: Well, your NPCs are part of that game world and world building. Again, its great to build this whole detailed world for your players, but don't force them to experience everything you've come up with - that's where the problems come in. Maybe Sir Gerald's brother was killed in a riding accident - an accident Gerald was responsible for, and he'd intended as a prank, not to kill his brother. And Sir Gerald carries that guilt with him. So when you play Sir Gerald, you can let some of that self blame come out as he takes responsibility for things that aren't strictly speaking his fault (a failed charge, arriving with reinforcements too late, etc). But your players never really need to know why he's like this unless they are either interested in finding out or its a critical plot point in your story. The mantra I've heard (and I over used) is "There is a difference between writing the silmarillion and publishing the silmarillon". Write an expansive book of lore for your world, but keep it your eyes only, and only expose your players to the parts that matter, or that they're interested in. I'll admit its really hard to craft a whole world and only show your players a fraction - there's always temptation to make them go earn PhDs in Elven Succession War Studies, because I put a lot of work in to that, dammit.
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Apr 17, 2013 21:14
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Guesticles posted:Maybe Sir Gerald's brother was killed in a riding accident - an accident Gerald was responsible for, and he'd intended as a prank, not to kill his brother. And Sir Gerald carries that guilt with him. So when you play Sir Gerald, you can let some of that self blame come out as he takes responsibility for things that aren't strictly speaking his fault (a failed charge, arriving with reinforcements too late, etc). But your players never really need to know why he's like this unless they are either interested in finding out or its a critical plot point in your story. This is the key, right here, as I'm finding out. Basically, for me as a hack author/DM, I want to make plausible, deep NPCs so that their motives "make sense" to me. But like you say, only give the players what they need to know and what they ask to know. If your goal is "the PCs feel empathy for the NPC's plight and they take the story hook", don't go on and on about exposition once the players do that.
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Apr 17, 2013 21:25
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I don't know where else to ask this (where's the general chat thread for TG?), so here it goes: I've been sitting on a Top Secret/SI campaign that's been brewing in my head for a while. Top Secret/SI was released in 1987. I have the books with me, but I can't find any online resources for players, since I figure not many people will have heard of Top Secret and Top Secret/SI. Should I go over character generation in full detail in the recruitment post or just ask for general details and backstory, then go over character generation once I have the group?
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Apr 17, 2013 22:51
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I have a story question and I'm fishing for ideas. Some of my players are probably goons, so if you are then stop reading NO CHEATING ALRIGHT?! --- My players are in a location with some fishy stuff going down, and after a series of escapades have managed to send the palace residents on a wild goose chase and are inside searching for clues. What they don't know is that a very nasty ritual is performed just before dawn each day, and I'd like for them to witness it so they know the true horror of the enemies they're facing. However, things worked out so they infiltrated the building early in the morning with a full day before the next ritual casting. My request is for a plausible way for them to remain in the building through the night to observe the ritual without being found out, without necessarily coming up with it themselves. They've somehow managed to dodge most of my planned background exhibition points by dumb luck thus far, and they've dragged out the mystery a few sessions longer than I expected, so I would like something natural but very probable, and I am coming up blank. Currently my best idea is to use one of the palace denizens that is somewhat sympathetic to the party and have him hide them in view of the ritual grounds before he goes and joins in. However, at this point he's still marginally on the side of the baddies, and this isn't something he'd volunteer; he's much more likely to just urge them to get the hell out of dodge. Sorry if that seems unnecessarily vague, I can provide more information if needed, but I wanted to keep it short as well as maintain OPSEC 
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Apr 17, 2013 23:08
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DarkHorse posted:I have a story question and I'm fishing for ideas. Some of my players are probably goons, so if you are then stop reading NO CHEATING ALRIGHT?! Invited to a party that evening, attractive women/adorable children/suspicious lurkers lead them away and somehow lose them, they end up on a walkway far above the ritual?
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Apr 17, 2013 23:24
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Any reason why the ritual can't just happen at a different time, so they don't have to wait?
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Apr 17, 2013 23:25
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homullus posted:I was thinking about this the other day. What AD&D/OSR is to D&D 4e, the original Tomb of Horrors is to AD&D. Tomb of Horrors has more in common with the computer adventure games that were just coming out around then (1978, around the time Scott Adams was writing games, and just before Sierra's graphical ones) than it does with AD&D, and therefore sets very different expectations. When I say it's a bad module, I am being hyperbolic. It's a bad fit for RPGs as they are conventionally understood today, and was a bad fit for AD&D campaign play even at its original publication. Tomb of Horrors is a string of set-piece encounters in the D&D tradition, but the majority are crippling or lethal, and trial-and-error is the only way to avoid most of those (aside from luck). Yeah, that's fair enough. It's definitely sui generis. Similar, in fact to the fourthcore style arena challenges we've been doing in 4e. You get a party, enter a large arena and have a set of tasks to accomplish as random monster generators spew minions and elites and regular monsters into the arena. The arena is essentially 'programmed' - monsters operate on simple rules for who they target - so you don't need a DM. It's fun as hell, and generally ends with the party eking out a skin of the teeth win or drowning under literal waves of unearthly chittering death. Last time we played we won with around 40 monsters still on the board. My friend wrote up the rules, I'll see if he minds me posting them here.
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Apr 17, 2013 23:25
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P.d0t posted:I take this in completely the other direction: I think the best way to do it is to have lots of very broad brush npcs, which get painted with finer strokes as the players get to know them. So an npc might be Bonce Slopford, Baker, bald/sweaty, nasal voice. That's a memorable character in 7 words. If he never plays a part in the story - win! If he does play a part in the story, say by baking silver pennies into tiny buns then using them as slingstones to defeat the Werewolf of Vampiretown - win win! Go Bonce you sweaty legend! One trouble with a huge long backstory is that unless you're a master actor it's just not going to come across except as (tedious) guarded ambiguity. And if you are a master actor, then you can convey the impression of a huge backstory with an inflection or an expression. Another one is that you're closing off elements of the future story based on what you've already decided for the character. I know that making characters is an entertaining game in its own right, but even if that's the way you roll I'd strongly recommend slapping a seven word description on top of that once you're done, because that's who your characters are going to meet.
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Apr 17, 2013 23:36
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DarkHorse posted:I have a story question and I'm fishing for ideas. Some of my players are probably goons, so if you are then stop reading NO CHEATING ALRIGHT?!
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Apr 17, 2013 23:52
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sebmojo posted:One trouble with a huge long backstory is that unless you're a master actor it's just not going to come across except as (tedious) guarded ambiguity. And if you are a master actor, then you can convey the impression of a huge backstory with an inflection or an expression. If you want the PCs (for whatever reason) to know the inner workings of an NPCs, explain it to them OOC. A bit tedious, so another thing I like to do is make comparisons to real life people they would be familiar with, or popular movie characters from Star Wars For example, I recently fleshed out the "General who ousted the insurgency and was just appointed Regent" by emailing the players a bunch of quotes by Charles de Gaulle, which I felt expressed the essence of the character. Now, you're leaving a lot up to their interpretation/understanding of that info, but you SHOULD leave the NPC vague enough that you can incorporate any truly brilliant inferences the players make about them. It's less about having a "huge long backstory" and more about having NPCs with plausible, relatable states-of-mind, and motives/actions which flow from their experience; something the PCs can say "I empathize with this NPCs motives/actions" or "I oppose this NPCs motives/actions" -- provoke something other than apathy or indifference towards the NPC (and, by extension, the story). edit: Also, as I have learned/extrapolated from this thread, it is far more satisfying to torture or kill your NPCs for something your PCs did, if you make sure they really care about those NPCs first.  I also love using music for ambiance and/or lyrics to convey messages or emotions (i.e. for those of us who suck at acting) P.d0t fucked around with this message at 03:06 on Apr 18, 2013 |
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Apr 18, 2013 00:04
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DarkHorse posted:I have a story question and I'm fishing for ideas. Some of my players are probably goons, so if you are then stop reading NO CHEATING ALRIGHT?! 1) The palace retinue comes back early, and the PCs end up having to hide in a secret room. They either stay in, or the exit gets blocked (possibly with horrible ritual components), so they can't leave till the next day. If you block them in with ritual components, it will give them something to follow. (Just remember players are only curious about things you don't want them to be curious about.) 2) Have an area look promising (possibly an area that leads to the ritual) and have a guard or toothless prospector remark that the door only opens $TOMORROW. 3) PCs step on a stun trap that stuns them for 24 hours. 4) Move the ritual up for $reasons. "Oh man, I forgot that its Infernal leap year" 5) Deus Ex Machina. A god that is super offended by the ritual tells them to come back tomorrow. 6) Is human sacrifice involved? "Oh pelor, you've got to get me out of here. They're going to kill me tomorrow."
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Apr 18, 2013 00:31
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EVIR Gibson posted:I'll let you know if I do. I'm running it this weekend and I have lots of things planned out and also a few key points that the players might take a different way. Aw crud, I can't make this weekend. So never mind me!
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Apr 18, 2013 01:15
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Pththya-lyi posted:Aw crud, I can't make this weekend. So never mind me! Are you Ok Octopus?
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Apr 18, 2013 04:28
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Any advice to curb meta-gaming? I have a group of guys who are all brand-new to D&D (except for me, I played a little AD&D 2E in high school so I was appointed DM), and there's one dude who can't seem to help himself from thinking in meta-terms (if that's even the right phrase to use). Examples: Me: There's an ochre jelly sliming its way around the corner. Meta-gamer: My barbarian runs away because blobs can only be hurt by magic. Me: Your character was a farmer, he's never seen this monster before. Meta-gamer: Well in games like Final Fantasy they're hard to kill with weapons. Me: You see an enormous stone door, decadently carved. Meta-gamer: There's probably a boss fight behind that door, let's go back to town to heal first. Me: Where did your barbarian hear about what's behind that door? Meta-gamer: Big doors mean boss fights in video games. Me: Okay, so the rogue and bard have come up with a secret plan to hide the potions from the rest of the party. Meta-gamer: I need to figure out a way to foil the plot. Me: You wouldn't know they're even planning something, that conversation was out of earshot for your barbarian. Meta-gamer: Yeah but now I can't help it. We're not hardcore role-players, and the campaign is story-light, combat-heavy and a bit goofy, but everyone else is at least trying to play from their character's perspective and he's playing from his own. Our group is also all good friends, so the rest of us have had no qualms telling him straight up he's being annoying with some of this, but I'm wondering if anyone's had a nicer way of encouraging a little more character-perspective playing.
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Apr 18, 2013 06:08
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Gorefluff posted:We're not hardcore role-players, and the campaign is story-light, combat-heavy and a bit goofy, but everyone else is at least trying to play from their character's perspective and he's playing from his own. Our group is also all good friends, so the rest of us have had no qualms telling him straight up he's being annoying with some of this, but I'm wondering if anyone's had a nicer way of encouraging a little more character-perspective playing. The nicest way is to tell him that you're finding it annoying. Ask him to try to get more into character. You could also arrange for meta-game rewards a la FATE, but the first thing you should do is talk to the guy.
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Apr 18, 2013 06:43
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Gorefluff posted:meta-gaming Down has the best answer. But if you must solve it in game one of my early DMs found a fun solution when a lying witch had us all paranoid. The underground river we hosted out of the witch's lair on emptied onto a sunny, peaceful lake. While we rowed along we saw bright tents and a barge came out to meet us. The fey folk happened to be having a carnival. And after the flower ladies said they thought the party was good looking "if you go in for those types." Sense Motive rolls made everything seem cool so half of us ran off to drink magic mead and dance with crazy fairies. The other half basically stood back to back holding knives. In the morning the guys joining in got some free stuff and a standing invitation to go to Satyr Oktoberfest. The paranoid types got a note calling them party poopers and advising them to lighten up. It wasn't even half the session in play but it encouraged us to play like we were dealing with other groups of people and not Bluff DCs with pointy ears. EDIT: Your situation sounds more combat based in metagaming but I believe the principle is the same. Try describing your monster's appearance instead of saying "There's a Beholder in there." And every once in a while have it be a creature that looks like the thing in the MM but tweak it's tactics, strengths, and weaknesses. On a good Nature check tell them "At first you think it's a Modron, however..." Conversely practice your poker face. On a bad knowledge type roll tell them, "Seems legit" without tipping your hand. Razorwired fucked around with this message at 07:11 on Apr 18, 2013 |
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Apr 18, 2013 07:01
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Gorefluff posted:Any advice to curb meta-gaming? I have a group of guys who are all brand-new to D&D (except for me, I played a little AD&D 2E in high school so I was appointed DM), and there's one dude who can't seem to help himself from thinking in meta-terms (if that's even the right phrase to use). Okay, so there are two real problems here. I think the first two things in your list might be ones that can be solved in a way that's beneficial. Does he seem to be having more fun when he metagames? Because when players do it, it's because it allows them to feel clever by overcoming the artificiality of the game. It just needs to be integrated into his character, so that it works for the group and the fiction instead of against it. Make him justify his knowledge and use it to build up his character, if your game is starting to lean in that direction. If he's seen it all before, maybe his character has, too. When you live in a fantasy world, you learn to recognize patterns. Maybe he's never seen an ochre jelly before, but as a farmer, so he's probably eaten porridge at some point, and you can't hit porridge with an axe. A giant, reinforced ceremonial door? His character hasn't played any video games, but something that ceremonial always has a monster behind it in the fables. That's a note of characterization that should be played in character - this character is cautious, and you should figure out why. Was there something in his backstory that made him learn that things are not always as they seem? Figure out how you can use that metagaming to further the action, instead of stopping it. Or, maybe, make it so he and everyone else are fully aware that there's a boss behind that door, but they need to go through it anyway because this guy simply must be stopped, and if we leave now he'll see that his guards are dead and he'll escape. That makes it absolutely terrifying for both the players and characters when they open that door, half-dead already but still determined. Maybe running away from the ochre-jelly leads him into a patrolling group of guards. Or he leaves, and it threatens his companion's lives, when he could have held it off. You should make sure to go the other way, too. Maybe his caution (if properly voiced) ends up helping the party. Either way, you've generated a story out of it. The last one is different though. If your game features that kind of intra-party dynamic, it's best to start passing notes or sending text messages with secret plans. That'll keep him from metagaming, since he won't realize that something is up. Later on, set up situation that allow the characters to grow into trusting one another. That way, the secret plans involve screwing NPCs over and taking their poo poo, which is much more fun for all parties involved. Remember, he's thinking about his character as himself. That means that when Gorefluff posted:the rogue and bard have come up with a secret plan to hide the potions from the rest of the party. He thinks, at a certain level, "Hey, those dudes are stealing my poo poo! Which is fun for the bard and rogue, but not very fun for him. Also, yeah, just talk to him. That's way better advice than what I just said.
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Apr 18, 2013 07:13
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I should have been more clear in my wording, I meant that we all HAVE called him out on it, and in fact I'm not even the most vocal one; our other buddy rags on him more for it than I do. I have taken the route in explaining that if he wants to meta-game, he should be wrapping it up in a role-playing package like Mimir suggested, so at least he's not spoiling whatever immersion the other players are achieving. And he's done a little bit of legwork in retroactively explaining some of his more grievous actions (for example, when the cleric was attacked by a pair of stone spiders while taking a leak during his watch shift at camp, can't hurt them on a roll of 15, meta-gamer's barbarian wakes up from the noise, but then decides they're immune to weapons because 15 is a good roll, so he immediately goes back to sleep; after taking a lot of poo poo from the cleric's player, he decided his barbarian has this whole theory about magic foes being unworthy opponents). The potion thing has a meta-gaming story too, and we did decide on a note-passing rule after that to avoid conflict. Appreciate all the advice regardless. How does reward system in FATE work? If he can't help himself from acting on biases he picked up from video games and movies, maybe rewarding him for ignoring them would in fact meta-game the meta-gamer out of him.
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Apr 18, 2013 07:50
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You could just take it in stride and go kinda chillax about it. NPCs all "Nintendos, huh." "Video games. Righto." "I knew a hooker named Final Fantasy once! She gave me the clap." I mean, maybe you wanna run a semi-serious ship, but I've never seen any harm in superficial meta-gaming or allowing minor anachronisms into your game world. The only harmful meta-gaming is the one where they ask for mechanical information ("so does my Knowledge check reveal the HD or what?") or ones where players are trying to finagle free checks out of you ("Which house in Fantasy Suburb looks the wealthiest if I'm gonna do a B&E?"). If you are trying to run a more serious game, pull some fakeouts. He plays Final Fantasy and stuff; I'd assume that he'd get pretty stingy with potions after wasting a few before a boring medium-tier trap/skill check room that happened to have a cultural or spiritual significance to the dungeon's previous occupants enough that they gave it a crazy ominous door. Revealing the plots of other players is just a cock-up, though. Whether it was you or it was your Bard and Thief talking about it openly to the point where the Fighter's player could hear? The second the actual player hears something, his character should know it's up. The players failing to be discreet enough to pull off something like that is tantamount to their characters doing the same. If it was you who gave it away, ain't no thang, lesson learned: just don't do it in the future, lest you incur the ire of the conspirators. Otherwise, if it was me? Fighter is an ex-farmer who really liked to watch movies and play nintendo. Magic nintendo. Fur20 fucked around with this message at 09:21 on Apr 18, 2013 |
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Apr 18, 2013 09:13
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Gorefluff posted:Appreciate all the advice regardless. How does reward system in FATE work? In FATE, everything has Aspects which mechanically outline their defining characteristics, i.e. this guy might have 'Barbarian Hero' and 'Distrustful Of Magic' among his Aspects. The way it works from the player side is that when a player lets their character make a blunder (like the Barbarian Hero making a fool of himself in court because he's unfamiliar with high society), they get a Fate Point which they can use to their advantage, either by using their character's Aspects or by affecting the Aspects of the scene. That's the simple (confusingly worded) explanation, so here's a free copy of FATE so you can check it out for yourself.
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Apr 18, 2013 09:17
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The White Dragon posted:You could just take it in stride and go kinda chillax about it. NPCs all "Nintendos, huh." "Video games. Righto." "I knew a hooker named Final Fantasy once! She gave me the clap." Fakeouts are great for this sort of thing. I didn't have your problem, but one time I had my players all set up to believe that this obviously evil nobleman was a vampire. He looked exactly like the last lord of the castle, for one thing, and the one before that. He detected as slightly evil, had a weird pendant, that sort of thing. The reveal? He was an elf, with freaky plant-ghost powers, in a setting where elves were incredibly rare. edit: Note that, if done wrong, that kind of reveal can seem like a crappy "Neener-neener! Fooled ya, stupid players!", so don't do it like that. Mimir fucked around with this message at 09:28 on Apr 18, 2013 |
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Apr 18, 2013 09:18
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I'm just gonna note that nothing can ruin a game faster than PC's starting to steal from each other. I'd have a talk with the players and make sure everyone's OK with it or someone is going to get pissed out of character.
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Apr 18, 2013 09:29
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FATE has characters with open ended traits like Bookish or Won't Back Down. Sometimes they help you (in a library or a patriotic music fest.) But the GM can tempt you: if you act on them negatively, you can earn FATE points that help you down the road.
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Apr 18, 2013 09:40
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If he's playing your campaign like a video game, maybe the answer is to put him in situations where playing his character has tangible benefits. Maybe have the party need to gain favour with a tribe of other barbarians, and have his guy need to be initiated. The initiation rite isn't a cage fight or anything like that. He has to choose the three greatest mistakes of his life and describe them. Then he and the party are sent on a drug trip where they get to replay them and make different choices (the barbarian playing himself, the other characters playing the other people present), and the barbarian then gets to see how his life would have turned out if things had gone that way instead. This serves two purposes. One, it gives the character a more concrete background. Two, you now have a better idea of what things and ideals are important to him, and can start forcing him to make difficult choices about how far he's willing to pursue those ideals.
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Apr 18, 2013 11:03
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Thanks for the suggestions guys. It's clear I needed to provide more background, so I'll add more detail, but to address the most common question:Sam. posted:Any reason why the ritual can't just happen at a different time, so they don't have to wait? Basically, they're in an isolated shithole town in the desert where, every morning, immortal seeming warriors will battle volunteers. If the volunteer meets the Champion's approval, they can walk away with as much gold as they can carry; if they fail in battle they are killed and the body disposed of. People in the town have seen the same group of warriors their entire lives, and they never seem to age. Occasionally, if a combatant bests the champions three times, they are invited to join their ranks. The players have already deduced that the champions probably need the bodies for their immortality, and prior investigation revealed bodies whose flesh had turned to ash and bones turned to gold. However, they haven't put all the pieces together. The secret is that the champions are renewed each day at dawn or just before it, and age greatly throughout the day. They are reborn with the sun and die just before its next rising. The ritual must be powered by the corpse of a willing combatant, and the champions use their newly refreshed bodies to get new "volunteers." In cases where they don't get a body, they trick someone with all their excess gold; over hundreds of years they've built up so much from the bones of the dead sacrifices that they've been using it for building material. They can't sell it for fear of drawing too much attention, and giving it away just leads to horrible inflation; things in the town are already hilariously overpriced, to the point most people just deal in credit. The insider is the long lost father of one of the PCs, an adventurer that was searching for the Philosophers Stone (a theme of the campaign) or a cure for disease and got trapped after he joined the champions' ranks. However, the ritual is the only thing keeping him alive past a day, and while he's favorably inclined to the characters he's not going to divulge this on his own. I tried to set things up to turn him, like having a favorite NPC fight and almost lose, but they were clever and short-circuited the encounter (instead of convincing him the cleric used a new power to teleport their friend to him once he'd lost). The palace has been emptied by this same friend running away (the champions need him for their ritual) and the party has taken the opportunity to infiltrate the palace. I'd have them see their friend get caught and taken to the ritual, but with the info they have there's no reason the champions wouldn't kill him right away, and if they didn't the pcs would probably save him before they saw the ritual. That would be ok, except I've made the father too sympathetic and they're not convinced the champions are evil. Hence why I want them to be aware of the gruesome ritual, which involves taking the beheaded body, reanimating it, and the decrepit ancient bodies of the champions crawl to it and pull it down to consume its radiant flesh. Once over it leaves the uneaten flesh charred and ashen and the bones turned to gold, and the rejuvenated champions go out to fight another day. I really wanted to push the body horror and existential anguish of the father and role play through his choice, presumably to help the party, end the evil, and doom himself to death, leaving the PC to have one last bittersweet day with the father she never knew.
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Apr 18, 2013 15:25
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DivineCoffeeBinge posted:don't then turn around and say "well, you could have uncovered the Big Bad's Evil Plot if you'd only listened to my seminar on Class Mobility in the Gnomish Enclaves of the Eastern Plains!" Actually this is hilarious to say, by all means say this whenever your players run into any trouble of any kind
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Apr 18, 2013 15:27
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DarkHorse posted:Thanks for the suggestions guys. It's clear I needed to provide more background, so I'll add more detail, but to address the most common question: Dad wants to get to know his daughter and tries to get her into Fight Club, and breaks the first and second rule. Otherwise, the party goes exploring and notices that the inner sanctum looks like this, except the bones are all solid gold. If that doesn't keep your party interested long enough for them to have to hide when the Champions return, I don't know what to tell you.
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Apr 18, 2013 16:33
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Question 1: I recently had the idea of presenting the PCs with a powerful NPC politician BBEG who is basically offering them all their dream jobs; the problem is if they go for it, they'll have to stop being a roving band of assholes (i.e. split the party) and become respectable adults, dropping the over-arching investigation. I get the feeling some will go for it and others not, and the idea I had was that they would each be offered a different job within the new regime (tailored to their backstory and character preferences and stuff) the BBEG is running the old "if you can't beat 'em, hire 'em" shtick, to break up the party Is this just too much of a pandora's box to actually work? ... Question 2: I want to pose a moral dilemma to the characters which may impact the ultimate fate of some of their beloved NPC companions. Two of the NPCs have fallen in love, but there's trouble in paradise. Here's the (intentionally-vague) description of the choices I want to present to the PCs, and let them decide the path their companion NPC will take. Option A: The lovebirds "take a break"
* There are no immediate hard feelings between the NPCs * The companion NPC continues questing with the party, and as long as he succeeds in his "quest", the couple will be able to get back together; if he fails she'll be sad Option B: He dumps her (I'm a dick, so this is my favourite option, because it has the most potential fallout and makes for a more interesting story/character arc, IMHO)
* Her feelings are hurt very badly in the immediate term, and the PCs may resent him for that * The companion NPC will want to continue questing with the party, in the hope that "when" he succeeds in his quest, he can patch things up with her after; if he fails, she won't be any more sad than she already is Option C: Nothing bad happens, gently caress it
* The companion NPC stays in town with her and does not continue questing with the party What's going on is that the companion NPC is able to see his lover's dreams (but hasn't told her this yet) and they are both very troubled by them. The dreams are the result of her brother's disappearance, and in options A & B, he has resolved to find the brother and/or learn his fate (which is the investigation the party is on), he just handles it in different ways. In Option C, this shared-dream plot thread would just be completely deleted. In Option B, it sort of allows for a dramatic moment at the end of the campaign, where the party has to choose whether to save the girl from immediate danger or go fight the BBEG, and the companion NPC will have the big "I have to go to her; I've loved her all along"-style reveal, but maybe I should stop telling NPC stories, so I dunno. I like using the NPCs to pull at the PCs' heartstrings. Is giving the players the option a good way to go about it? If so, am I giving them enough info to make a decision? Any tweaks or other suggestions?
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Apr 18, 2013 20:53
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P.d0t posted:Question 1: If this is PbP or similar, I think it could work. Otherwise, unless you get Co-GMs or make the other people NPCs when one person 'has the conch' so to speak, its 30 minutes of you being the star, and an hour and half of waiting while the other 3 people have their turn. I will perform literal acts of God to keep a real-life party from splitting up any more than "checking out different parts of the map". P.d0t posted:Question 2: Have the source of conflict being his continued adventuring with the party. Either she's worried for his safety, or wants him to start thinking about future and get a stable job, or maybe he's having doubts where he loves both her and adventuring, but hates to be away from her. Do what feels right. Have him come to the party for advice, since he's not sure what to do, and have your players figure out what they think he should do. They might come up with some 4th option that shits all over your plans. Not every thing you pull as DM has to be telegraphed or hinted at to the party. You can make the party accidentally give the BBEG all the tools he needs for his plan to succeed with no hints or clues that that's what they're doing: Just went this does happen, you don't get to twirl your neckbeard and be all "Fools! Muwhaahhah! You should have known because of $OBSCURE_HINT!". (Your BBEG guy character can do this, just not you. You just say "Yeah, I made it so you were screwed no matter what because it made a better story.") There doesn't need to be a way for the party to figure out that their NPC will run to his lover just before the final battle UNLESS this majorly dicks them over.
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Apr 18, 2013 21:16
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Guesticles posted:If this is PbP or similar, I think it could work. Otherwise, unless you get Co-GMs or make the other people NPCs when one person 'has the conch' so to speak, its 30 minutes of you being the star, and an hour and half of waiting while the other 3 people have their turn. This, don't split them up. Unless it is online or everyone is cool with setting up different gamenights for different groups with the possibility of a shared one if the story makes it doable. That last one is very difficult though, since your pacing has to be very tight and all sorts of things can disrupt that. Always keep the party together. Two weeks ago the group I run found a weakened Necromancer that they were tasked to kill. He convinced them he was banished because he was raising dead to help out poor farmers. The rulers were doing the same thing, but asking years of servitude and indebted slavery, enriching themselves before the next generation could use their Undead relative as a farmhand. He wanted to do it at cost price plus some small benefits. It was the truth, though the players still suspect their roll was just bad. The idealistic Warlord wanted to help the oppressed farmers, the Wizard and Fighter were afraid that even weakened the Necromancer would kill them if they turned him down since they just broke into the trap-infested prison-tower the Necormancer was in and got hurt quite bad, the Rogue was promised the item he was searching for meaning he would be free to spend the 800 gold he saved. However, the Warlock said it was not their fight, their mission was to take him out and they should just kill him and be done with it. Everyone argued and in the end the Warlock decided to join the party because he did not want to split them up. If the division is 4 vs 1 most people will realize it is a group game and refusing to go along with what the whole party decides will just make things very difficult. Maybe one of your players has a leader type role? If the campaign hasn't started yet you can try to agree that he makes the decisions and the rest follow. Many reasons can be found for that. Friendship, a debt, mercenary band, etc. Losing control might seem bad, but if every mishap is followed by reluctant characters complaining they never should've joined this crazy quest it can be really fun depending on your group. If everyone knows about it and agrees some kind blame-gaming can create a very fun dynamic.
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Apr 18, 2013 21:40
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Guesticles posted:If this is PbP or similar, I think it could work. Otherwise, unless you get Co-GMs or make the other people NPCs when one person 'has the conch' so to speak, its 30 minutes of you being the star, and an hour and half of waiting while the other 3 people have their turn. This is F2F, but I have a de-facto Co-GM so maybe I could swing it that way, if need be. The other thing is that I've basically set it up where each of the "jobs" the players could take has its own NPCs that have already been introduced, so maybe I could have the players operate them. I think this is what you're suggesting. Guesticles posted:Have the source of conflict being his continued adventuring with the party. Either she's worried for his safety, or wants him to start thinking about future and get a stable job, or maybe he's having doubts where he loves both her and adventuring, but hates to be away from her. Do what feels right. Have him come to the party for advice, since he's not sure what to do, and have your players figure out what they think he should do. They might come up with some 4th option that shits all over your plans. I think this is probably more workable. It's comes across (to me) as a lot less tension-filled than what I proffered, which is basically "being together is driving them apart" I don't want it to be a no-win, but I want to make it a tough choice. Guesticles posted:Not every thing you pull as DM has to be telegraphed or hinted at to the party. You can make the party accidentally give the BBEG all the tools he needs for his plan to succeed with no hints or clues that that's what they're doing: Just went this does happen, you don't get to twirl your neckbeard and be all "Fools! Muwhaahhah! You should have known because of $OBSCURE_HINT!". (Your BBEG guy character can do this, just not you. You just say "Yeah, I made it so you were screwed no matter what because it made a better story.") There doesn't need to be a way for the party to figure out that their NPC will run to his lover just before the final battle UNLESS this majorly dicks them over. Yeah, it's not about how "NPC runs off" effects the fight mechanically; I think I would have him do that either way, but if they're working under the premise that he won't choose her, the players get to have this "awwww  " moment when he does.e: BioTech posted:This, don't split them up. Unless it is online or everyone is cool with setting up different gamenights for different groups with the possibility of a shared one if the story makes it doable. That last one is very difficult though, since your pacing has to be very tight and all sorts of things can disrupt that. Always keep the party together. I started off with 9 players (currently at 7) so I already have some experience with rotating a mishmash of players in and out  I think I could manage it. The problem is if all 7 choose to go their own direction, that would suck. I might try and make 3 "jobs" they could be grouped together for, instead of 1 job for each. The paladin is following the main quest on orders from his deity, so I think he'll decline the job offer, although it will be very tempting/appealing to him. The campaign is about midway through, but the BBEG is just about to be introduced to the party for the first time in-person. P.d0t fucked around with this message at 22:03 on Apr 18, 2013 |
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Apr 18, 2013 21:52
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