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Madkal posted:That whole thing was so well written that I spent an hour or so researching to see if Breschau actually existed Hahaha the first thing I did after reading that was google Breschau.
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Apr 16, 2013 21:38
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Anyone who reads that chapter of Sandman and doesn't look up or at least think about looking up Breschau is a crazy.
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Apr 16, 2013 21:40
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mind the walrus posted:Anyone who reads that chapter of Sandman and doesn't look up or at least think about looking up Breschau is a crazy. I didn't. Because..  I AM BRESCHAU
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Apr 16, 2013 23:45
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Along those lines, wasn't there a Spectre storyline where a guy becomes a vampire and feels forced to feed for the first time, resulting in him killing his victim. In his guilt he locks himself away for centuries to punish himself, I think surrounded by objects that hurt him and keep him from escaping to hurt others? Finally the Spectre comes along and tries to tell him he's tortured himself enough, he is forgiven and may pass on, but he refuses to accept that and remains locked away?
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Apr 17, 2013 00:20
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Wade Wilson posted:Hell in the DC universe is also where people want to go because they believe they deserve to be punished, if the bits of it we see in Sandman are any indicator. That's also a recurring theme in John Ostrander's Specter run.
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Apr 17, 2013 01:20
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...You reminded me of something. Hell became 'worse' for the inmates when it came under the management of 'proper' angels. The difference was before, the torture was 'mindless'. After, it was because they 'love you and want you to change'. I remember that strongly.
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Apr 17, 2013 06:49
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  (thumbnailed because they're a little bit bigger than I normally upload 'cause of the cursive handwriting) Sandman #28
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Apr 17, 2013 06:54
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Madkal posted:Yea it takes things from Vlad but Vlad wasn't the only sadistic ruler at the time. That kind of brutality was pretty much par for the course for most insane rulers throughout history. I would love to ask Gaiman who the true inspiration was. I always took the Breschea scene as Gaiman taking the piss, that eventually no matter what evil deeds you have done it will be surpassed and you will be forgotton, that eventually time grants forgiveness, I mean it's almost comically with each time he says what he has done it elevates it further. That even this great evil will be forgotten, and ultimately his acts were pointless.
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Apr 17, 2013 08:08
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Hollis posted:I always took the Breschea scene as Gaiman taking the piss, that eventually no matter what evil deeds you have done it will be surpassed and you will be forgotton, that eventually time grants forgiveness, I mean it's almost comically with each time he says what he has done it elevates it further. That even this great evil will be forgotten, and ultimately his acts were pointless. Pretty sure it was that, yeah. Hitler (  ) will eventually be forgotten. So will Osama. So will H. H. Holmes.
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Apr 17, 2013 10:36
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Uthor posted:
I'm grateful to you. Thanks much.
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Apr 17, 2013 14:53
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Mister Roboto posted:Pretty sure it was that, yeah. Hell, I had to think for a minute to remember Holmes.
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Apr 17, 2013 18:44
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Uthor posted:
I'm not quite sure I follow the logic of 'that makes it worse'. I mean, I have a guess, but I'm not sure if it's what Gaiman intended.
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Apr 18, 2013 07:46
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FredMSloniker posted:I'm not quite sure I follow the logic of 'that makes it worse'. I mean, I have a guess, but I'm not sure if it's what Gaiman intended. It's because they'll be doing it out of love not hatred, theyre not punishing them for their deeds their punishing them to make them better. It defeats the whole purpose of hell. It's no longer punishment it's reprogramming. I really need to go back and reread Gaimans stuff.
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Apr 18, 2013 07:54
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It's easy to respond to someone who hurts you out of hate. What do you do with someone who does something hurtful to you out of love? What could sting harder than the blade of someone who still truly loves you?
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Apr 18, 2013 08:51
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Mike From Nowhere posted:It's easy to respond to someone who hurts you out of hate. What do you do with someone who does something hurtful to you out of love? What could sting harder than the blade of someone who still truly loves you? Accept that you did something wrong, I guess?
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Apr 18, 2013 09:01
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Accepting and admitting you did something wrong can sometimes be harder than wallowing in a masochistic "I deserve to be punished by these assholes" way. Almost as an excuse NOT to admit you're wrong--especially when you don't want to admit you're wrong to someone you hate. Difference between screwing up at work and you hate the boss versus screwing up at work and the boss is a really good friend. One you'll hate him for admitting it and justly hate him more after, the other you'll hate yourself for doing it at all.
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Apr 18, 2013 16:25
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Mark Waid’s favorite Superman page and happy 75th Birthday Superman 500 
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Apr 18, 2013 16:42
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FredMSloniker posted:I'm not quite sure I follow the logic of 'that makes it worse'. I mean, I have a guess, but I'm not sure if it's what Gaiman intended. Because now they are shamed, now they are being made to change, now they are redeemable. Listen to Breschau boast. He is being flagellated because he is irredeemably evil, he who did yadda yadda yadda. Instead of a cop, now it's your mom. Or Mr. Rogers. And you've let them down, but they know that eventually you'll come around and do better, and they believe in this, no matter how hard they have to push you.
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Apr 18, 2013 21:57
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Hollis posted:It's because they'll be doing it out of love not hatred, theyre not punishing them for their deeds their punishing them to make them better. It defeats the whole purpose of hell. It's no longer punishment it's reprogramming. I don't think it's that. Imagine the difference between a stranger punching you and your parents being really, really disappointed in you.
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Apr 18, 2013 22:18
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I think the reason the denzins of hell hate it even more is that the angels are punishing them with promises of hope and love (ie this punishment will hurt now but it will bring you one step closer to your redemption and love). However, this being hell, the people in hell know that this promise of hope and redemption is a lie, something that will never be achieved. It is there to provide false hope, a promise of an ending to their sufering only for it not to be realised at all, destroying hope at the same time promising it. I guess if you want to picture it, imagine someone saying they are beating you badly but it will make you stronger and the beatings stop. This gives you hope, but the beatings just go on and on and on.
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Apr 18, 2013 22:40
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Hell under Lucifer was portrayed as an absolute state - if you ended up there, it was the natural order of God's universe. The angels have the option to reform Hell and run things their own way, but they make the conscious decision to leave things as they are. They're actually infinitely more cruel than Lucifer, because until the events of that storyline, he didn't realise he had an alternative. The denizens of hell are left with the realisation that they don't have to be there.
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Apr 18, 2013 22:42
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Having never read the Lucifer series (I know I should) was the whole thing with the angels running hell ever addressed? Was there ever any confrontation? Did hell get better?
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Apr 18, 2013 22:50
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Madkal posted:Having never read the Lucifer series (I know I should) was the whole thing with the angels running hell ever addressed? Was there ever any confrontation? Did hell get better? Yes and read Lucifer
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Apr 18, 2013 23:44
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Captain America's adopted son Ian confronts his sister Jet Black Zola. Captain America 6
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Apr 18, 2013 23:59
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priznat posted:I didn't. Because.. Prove it. Point out where Livonia used to be on a map. 
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Apr 19, 2013 00:03
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muscles like this? posted:Captain America's adopted son Ian confronts his sister Jet Black Zola. Cap is what happens if you give Pa Kent superpowers.
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Apr 19, 2013 00:36
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bobkatt013 posted:Yes and read Lucifer I want to except for the whole DC trade department is terrible and it's going out of print.
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Apr 19, 2013 01:01
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Endless Mike posted:I want to except for the whole DC trade department is terrible and it's going out of print. I have noticed that a few of the second book stores in my neighbourhood have started selling second hand trade paperbacks (as in they are getting a lot of inventory). I have found quite a few out of print trades thanks to them.
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Apr 19, 2013 01:09
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Endless Mike posted:I want to except for the whole DC trade department is terrible and it's going out of print. New larger collections are on the way. Vol.1 is out June 4th.
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Apr 19, 2013 01:44
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Rhyno posted:New larger collections are on the way. Vol.1 is out June 4th. Yeah but this is DC which means they will do 1-3 then stop.
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Apr 19, 2013 02:01
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Endless Mike posted:Yeah but this is DC which means they will do 1-3 then stop. The smart way to guarantee sales would have been to stick "SANDMAN SOMETHING SOMETHING" across the top of the cover.
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Apr 19, 2013 02:51
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Rhyno posted:The smart way to guarantee sales would have been to stick "SANDMAN SOMETHING SOMETHING" across the top of the cover. "GO CRAZY"?
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Apr 19, 2013 03:22
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Don't mind if i do!
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Apr 19, 2013 04:40
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Gavok posted:"GO CRAZY"? You make me smile.
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Apr 19, 2013 04:51
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Should I still read Lucifer if I loved Sandman and the character in that series but have never found Mike Carey to be anything more than a boring blah writer
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Apr 19, 2013 06:04
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Bown posted:Should I still read Lucifer if I loved Sandman and the character in that series but have never found Mike Carey to be anything more than a boring blah writer Lucifer has a really fantastic narrative with fun characters(and a goddess of hedgehogs). Also some touching father son moments!
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Apr 19, 2013 07:08
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Lucifer is one of my favorite books. I make a point to read that and Sandman once a year. It does lose a bit of momentum later in the series though, and eventually the story focuses more on the supporting characters than Lucifer himself. I imagine it was hard too keep up his demeanor from a writers standpoint. It does get back on track though right before the final arc. And ties things up nicely.
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Apr 19, 2013 09:14
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W.T. Fits posted:Prove it. Point out where Livonia used to be on a map. Right around the borders of Latvia and Estonia. Early European history professor gave me a look when he asked that and wanted to know why I would possibly take the time to learn that.
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Apr 19, 2013 16:01
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Bown posted:Should I still read Lucifer if I loved Sandman and the character in that series but have never found Mike Carey to be anything more than a boring blah writer Lucifer is Carey's finest work, he was given total free reign to do whatever he wanted and god drat did he work some magic.
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Apr 19, 2013 19:51
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Rhyno posted:The smart way to guarantee sales would have been to stick "SANDMAN SOMETHING SOMETHING" across the top of the cover. "From the pages of Neil Gaiman's SANDMAN"
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Apr 20, 2013 00:24
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