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caleramaen posted:I'm pretty sure the DO wanted Rand to have the Choedan'kal. If you recall the last scene Rand uses it is in TGS, when he is on the verge of destroying the world. Yea, after Saidin was cleansed this is true. Before, no, not at all. caleramaen posted:The only thing that Rand really did with it was cleanse saidin. That was a big freaking deal. Literally the most important event to happen, and the biggest victory for the Light, since Saidin was tainted. If you recall all of the Forsaken were ordered to Travel there immediately and put a stop to it. This is the only time the Forsaken we all given a command like that and ordered to all fight the same battle. Even in the Last Battle they all had different commands and different orders. Mesaana was punished, personally by the Dark One's avatar, just for not showing up. You really can't just dismiss the cleansing. caleramaen posted:Thought experiment: What would happen if Rand and Lanfear tried to use both Choedan'kal to destroy the DO? It doesn't matter. That's not why the Dark One didn't want Rand to have the Choedan'kal. The prophecies made it pretty clear that Callandor was crucial anyways. caleramaen posted:As far as Ishamael/Moridin goes, I'm pretty sure the DO was playing him for a sap. Well yeah, but there's plenty of quotes from Sanderson saying that the Dark One trusted Morridin the most of all his servants, and the guy was named Nae'blis and put in charge for a reason.
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Mar 22, 2013 05:04
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caleramaen posted:As far as Ishamael/Moridin goes, I'm pretty sure the DO was playing him for a sap. He thought he understood the DO best, but he was in reality just the most insane of the DO's minions, who would take the most extreme actions in his service. He was the only person who didn't give a poo poo if the world ended, in fact he wants it to end! Why not do whatever insanity the DO orders? It just brings the sweet end closer. "Playing him for a sap" is not quite right. Ishmael knew exactly what was going on. He just didn't care. The world ends or the DO recreates it in his image is all fine with him. His reasoning is the DO only has to win once, and the cycle will end. The actual results of said win are inconsequential.
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Mar 22, 2013 14:57
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subx posted:"Playing him for a sap" is not quite right. Ishmael knew exactly what was going on. He just didn't care. The world ends or the DO recreates it in his image is all fine with him. His reasoning is the DO only has to win once, and the cycle will end. The actual results of said win are inconsequential. He believed the results of a DO win would be oblivion. Based on the battle between Rand and the DO, it appears he too was lied to.
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Mar 22, 2013 15:04
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So what ever happened with that situation where Aviendha is IDing ter'angreal in an earlier book, and a reader asks Sanderson if a certain one is used for growing Waygates/Waygate keys? His answer was to look surprised, start laughing, and then say "RAFO," but I don't recall it ever being mentioned in AMoL. Did he actually mean "Read and find out....in an encyclopedia that will be released far after the original series!"
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Mar 24, 2013 06:10
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Read and find out can also mean "I don't want to answer that question because it might come up in a future book and I don't want to spoil the surprise. It might not come up at all, but I want to keep my options open." Or heck. Maybe it's what Rand used to do his plant growing trick. There are multiple ter'angreal that do the same thing so it wouldn't even need to be the same one. Blind Melon fucked around with this message at 07:50 on Mar 24, 2013 |
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Mar 24, 2013 07:48
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LentThem posted:So what ever happened with that situation where Aviendha is IDing ter'angreal in an earlier book, and a reader asks Sanderson if a certain one is used for growing Waygates/Waygate keys? Maybe that was the thing they can use to make angreal. I guess Rand calls it a seed when he gives it to Elayne.
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Mar 24, 2013 15:46
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LentThem posted:So what ever happened with that situation where Aviendha is IDing ter'angreal in an earlier book, and a reader asks Sanderson if a certain one is used for growing Waygates/Waygate keys? If I remember correctly, at some point they mention that the men left the Ogier with ways to grow more Waygates, so I would assume this would be a ter'angreal. I'd have to re-read to verify that though.
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Mar 25, 2013 02:19
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Uh so did we find out the song or is there any clear resolution to that plot? I just remember that one time when I think Mat hears Rand singing it when he meets Tuon again in the garden. And also Rand having everything grow around him by his will.. but not much focus on the 'Song'.
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Mar 25, 2013 09:50
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Lascivious Sloth posted:Uh so did we find out the song or is there any clear resolution to that plot? I just remember that one time when I think Mat hears Rand singing it when he meets Tuon again in the garden. And also Rand having everything grow around him by his will.. but not much focus on the 'Song'. Wasn't this discussed in the last page or two? There is no song - it's just a corrupted myth from the Age of Legends.
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Mar 25, 2013 13:45
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I jumped ahead ten pages or so in the thread, so I hope this hasn't been discussed already: Did anyone else see the scene where Thom Merrilin is composing a ballad while dispatching black sisters as a small meta-scene with Thom as a stand-in for Sanderson and the ballad as the book? Thom is trying to find the words to describe the last battle and talking about how hard it is to avoid cliches; seems like an obvious reference to how hard Sanderson must have found the same task. As a writer myself that's how I saw it, and it's one of my favorite scenes.
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Mar 25, 2013 17:28
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I dunno, I always read the song and their quest for it as "Song of Growing = Food/Plenty = Peace = Age of Legends" and not just straight "Song = Age of Lengends???" but apparently Sanderson had a different view. Seems like a sorta useful thing to have regardless, and I don't see a bunch of pacifists turning it down but eh 
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Mar 25, 2013 20:09
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Pimpmust posted:I dunno, I always read the song and their quest for it as "Song of Growing = Food/Plenty = Peace = Age of Legends" and not just straight "Song = Age of Lengends???" but apparently Sanderson had a different view. Well, it's not "song == age of legends" so much as "in the age of legends, things were awesome and we sang; ergo the good things must have been due to singing the specific song we were singing; ergo if we find that song again things will be awesome!" By the time the group of ex-Aiel who became Tinkers left the rest of the Aiel, I don't think there were still stories of having been involved with the song of growing, and without the Rhuidean History Columns there wasn't any way to know about it. Cue a couple generations of separation before the Columns were created, and now even though the Wise Ones and clan chiefs know where the idea of song == awesome comes from, they don't share that knowledge with their own clans, much less with the Tinkers. Then hundreds of years pass, the Tinkers' mythology gets distorted even further (because they not only don't have regular trips to the Columns to provide accurate views of the past, they started with a distorted idea to begin with), and now even if the Tinkers did learn the Song of Growing, they wouldn't recognize it as what they wanted (it wouldn't bring about peace and prosperity even if they did have fields to plant and/or Nym to help, just a better harvest).
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Mar 25, 2013 20:57
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Here's the last three books in one book. TGS and TOM have been combined, everything fits with the timeline provided. Timeline: https://spreadsheets.google.com/ AMOL eBook: https://docs.google.com/folder/ fake edit: I love Sigil. (USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST) Somebody fucked around with this message at 18:24 on Mar 30, 2013 |
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Mar 27, 2013 03:03
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Old Janx Spirit posted:I jumped ahead ten pages or so in the thread, so I hope this hasn't been discussed already: I saw it that way too, but I did 't like the scene. The narrative voice seemed off, Thom didn't really feel like Thom to me, and the overall scene concept was a little goofy.
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Mar 28, 2013 19:42
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BananaNutkins posted:I saw it that way too, but I did 't like the scene. The narrative voice seemed off, Thom didn't really feel like Thom to me, and the overall scene concept was a little goofy. It was dumb overall. The DO decides to have one dude total hang out with him, then random black Ajah try and sneak in? Especially with the crazy time dilation effects going on it made little sense. Edit: how many more "genre breaking" fantasy series do there need to be before we stop getting endings where the villain decides he doesn't need guards or support, then is astonished when he doesn't beat the plucky hero in his lair. Velius fucked around with this message at 22:30 on Mar 28, 2013 |
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Mar 28, 2013 22:27
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Velius posted:It was dumb overall. The DO decides to have one dude total hang out with him, then random black Ajah try and sneak in? Especially with the crazy time dilation effects going on it made little sense. Well, the thing is, the worst that can happen, from the Dark One's perspective, is that he gets sealed away until someone bores a hole into his prison again. Moridin was there to take care of Moiraine and Nynaeve (because the DO expects his followers to be selfish and thus probably didn't want to risk a pair of Chosen turning on each other), not Rand, since the conflict between Rand and the DO was not really the sort that Moridin could help with except by killing Rand's supporters. (I'm not even sure that Rand dying would have resulted in a victory for the DO, or at least not a complete victory.) Then, since Rand had two more people with him than the prophecy seemed to expect (Alanna and Thom), cue random Darkfriends to take care of them. That they didn't succeed means the hero(es) won, not that the DO didn't try hard enough.
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Mar 29, 2013 02:26
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Regarding the heroes of the horn at the end of the book: I like to think Noal was riding Bela
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Apr 15, 2013 15:31
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GORDON posted:It was my impression that "Let the Lord of Chaos Rule" was the DO's order to keep everyone confused. Cut lines of communication. Start rumors. Spread rumors. Reinforce falsehoods. Which is what happened. On a related note, it's funny how a huge theme of the series is people who think they're doing good but are actually misguided. Whitecloaks, sul'dam, etc. manage to cause great suffering despite (sometimes) good intentions. But then when they show a world without the Dark One, there are none of these issues, it's just automatic paradise. It's a shame this couldn't have been explored more thoroughly. Say for instance, Rand tries to remove the Dark One but finds that humanity is still wracked with conflict, maybe even more severely because they're all Whitecloak-like zealots for their own personal ethical systems. Then he tries again and again to fix it until he's basically stripped away all autonomy from humankind, and creates something like what is in the text. A couple other thoughts. Regarding Androl and Pevara's link, it was severely underemphasized but I think it's a really important development for the future. Remember that the Warder bond didn't exist in the AoL, so presumably neither did this bond, or the entirely new methods of channelling it enables. It's surely intended to be among the most revolutionary developments of the next age, but probably for the best that its precise consequences were left to the imagination. (Although if I were a bigger fan of Jordan's whole gender complementarity thing, I might feel a stronger desire to see this fleshed out.) Was I the only one who liked Alivia's "helping Rand die"? For once, a prediction doesn't have to be all doom and gloom. You can just imagine Rand laughing when he came up with that plan. Also, anybody else disappointed we didn't get to see Moridin's shocklance in action? Come on Moridin, it's the end of the world, don't be stingy. McNerd fucked around with this message at 20:39 on Apr 15, 2013 |
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Apr 15, 2013 20:26
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Well, you saw how one worked in one of the hereditary visions.
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Apr 16, 2013 05:15
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It's effectively a rifle, right?
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Apr 16, 2013 07:02
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Two Finger posted:It's effectively a rifle, right? More likely some sort of energy weapon. The Age of Legends was closer to Star Trek levels of technology than real world.
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Apr 16, 2013 09:23
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Bhodi posted:Well, you saw how one worked in one of the hereditary visions. I'm pretty sure you don't? If you're talking about Rand's visions in The Shadow Rising I just double-checked, you see them but don't see them in use. A quick Internet search finds a Q&A which says that the weapon used to capture Elayne in Knife of Dreams chapter 31 is officially a mini-shocklance. (The "pistol" to the shocklance's "rifle," was the official description.) quote:Suddenly sparks danced all over her from head to toe. She twitched helplessly, muscles spasming, saidar slipping from her grasp. She could see Vandene and Careane and Sareitha jerking as sparks flickered across them as well. Only a moment it lasted, but when the sparks vanished, Elayne felt as if she had been fed through a mangle... So this crappy version can taze four people simultaneously (or close enough) or taze/kill at least one at long range. Apparently some sort of ultra lightning phaser. McNerd fucked around with this message at 13:56 on Apr 16, 2013 |
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Apr 16, 2013 13:52
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It was in one of the visions from the pillar, right? One of the people shoot the scavenging Aiel with it. Bright flash, dead body.
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Apr 16, 2013 15:31
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It's obviously a Dalek laser then.
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Apr 16, 2013 16:06
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Bhodi posted:It was in one of the visions from the pillar, right? One of the people shoot the scavenging Aiel with it. Bright flash, dead body. That was some sort of future tech that's standard issue in the Fourth Age. They called it a hiss-stick I think. Edit: Just looked up that passage. The bright light was just the light they used to catch her. Getting shot felt like "a small rock hitting her in the back," and then she bled out. So hiss-sticks are probably some sort of silenced rifle. (From the little I've heard, this is not an especially realistic description of what it feels like to take a bullet, but whatever.) Edit 2: Just realized that the Jenn Aiel must have gone through the columns twice, to learn of their impending doom. That's kind of a bummer. vvv Yeah Teal'c's staff was exactly what I had pictured before, and a zat gun looks about right for the stun effect. McNerd fucked around with this message at 17:15 on Apr 16, 2013 |
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Apr 16, 2013 16:07
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Xachariah posted:It's obviously a Dalek laser then. Thinking more of this thing from the description https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5RcDSPc_IA&t=12s (that show also featured the Rifle variant  )Although I prefer to imagine the past sequences ripped straight from Terminator 2 future bits, random piles of skulls and pulse lasers everywhere for maximum 80ies total war. Pimpmust fucked around with this message at 16:58 on Apr 16, 2013 |
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Apr 16, 2013 16:51
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McNerd posted:Edit 2: Just realized that the Jenn Aiel must have gone through the columns twice, to learn of their impending doom. That's kind of a bummer. I never made that connection, but it does manage to make Rands trip through the columns even cooler. I do love that scene where the Aiel clan chiefs first come to Rhudien, especially when Rand's ancestor asks what will become of the Jen, implying that they are setting themselves up to rule.. To this point none of the other Aiel have acknowledged that the Jen are Aiel at all, and when he is told that the Jen will die, having served their purpose, he says "I will go with the Jen Aiel". Subtle, but loving hardcore.
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Apr 16, 2013 19:37
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Blind Melon posted:I never made that connection, but it does manage to make Rands trip through the columns even cooler. I do love that scene where the Aiel clan chiefs first come to Rhudien, especially when Rand's ancestor asks what will become of the Jen, implying that they are setting themselves up to rule.. To this point none of the other Aiel have acknowledged that the Jen are Aiel at all, and when he is told that the Jen will die, having served their purpose, he says "I will go with the Jen Aiel". Subtle, but loving hardcore. Also, I love that they followed the Way of the Leaf to the point of accepting their own extinction gracefully. That was probably obvious to everyone else though.
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Apr 16, 2013 21:08
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With the end of A Memory of Light being such a disappointment (well the whole series really after the first few) I put all of my Wheel of Time books up for sale at a Garage Sale I had last weekend. Not a single one sold, had to give them away to the Salvos.
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Apr 18, 2013 06:37
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If it was the Salvation Army, there's a chance they just destroyed them. I heard rumors that they did this to Harry Potter books, but I don't know if WoT is well-known enough or satanic enough for destruction. http://canadianatheist.com/2010/09/01/the-salvation-army-destroys-books/
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Apr 18, 2013 15:41
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Ha, thats pretty weird. Oh well I don't mind, I was done with them anyway. Especially the last one, worst $25 I've spent in a while.
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Apr 18, 2013 23:51
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Honestly I thought the last three WOT books were the best in the series apart from maybe the first one. All I can remember from the rest is Nynaeve is ridiculously bossy, Elayne is ridiculously arrogant, Mat is ridiculously suspicious, Egwene is ridiculously prideful and Perrin is ridiculously self-pitying. EDIT: And the forsaken are basically comic book villains.
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Apr 19, 2013 03:20
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I love the first four. After that it's decent.
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Apr 19, 2013 04:05
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Just wanted to say thanks for all the great posts. Great way to cool down, considering the brief resolution. I kinda stumbled on this series to get my fix after getting hooked on Game of Thrones. Loved the first six, read wikis on 7-11, then read the last three. I think Sanderson did a commendable job of pulling it together. I didn't really expect any deep revelations, as I consider it more of a young-adult-fantasy novel. It's fun. For the most part. Kinda surprised to not see more love for Loial and the Ogier's battle scenes. The singing and the swinging...so cinematic. I feel like I finally got the fighting wookiee scene. Thanks for explaining Hinderstap. Totally missed that. Awesome. Favorite ideas of the thread so far: Nakomi is Rand's Mom, and maybe the Aiel lady at the end. Bela joins the heroes of the horn. (was soooo mad. why give her a great action scene, then kill her off. assholes.) Matt should have asked Hawking to set Tuon straight on damane. Mine: Androl shoulda used the lavagates in Merrilor. Demandred shoulda given Gawen's rings to some Sharans.
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Apr 19, 2013 06:08
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What was said just above is true - EOTW was far and away the absolute best thing RJ ever wrote. It was compelling, gripping, and drew you in so that you read 13 other books. I don't regret reading them, and there were some great moments throughout them all, but EOTW was the pinnacle.
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Apr 19, 2013 07:09
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Two Finger posted:What was said just above is true - EOTW was far and away the absolute best thing RJ ever wrote. It was compelling, gripping, and drew you in so that you read 13 other books. I don't regret reading them, and there were some great moments throughout them all, but EOTW was the pinnacle. Nah, the series didn't start to get truly good till TSR, and the pinnacle of the Jordan written stuff was LoC. Honestly books 4 - 8 really.
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Apr 19, 2013 07:40
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The Lord Bude posted:Nah, the series didn't start to get truly good till TSR, and the pinnacle of the Jordan written stuff was LoC. Honestly books 4 - 8 really. Anyone who puts TPOD at the pinnacle of anything needs professional help. It doesn't even get to be the pinnacle of boring poo poo, because COT gets that distinction. All of Wheel of Time is good stuff apart from books 8-10, where it sagged badly.
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Apr 19, 2013 08:53
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I hated EotW and finished it because I was bored. Then I read the last page and I immediately bought the second book.
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Apr 19, 2013 17:34
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EotW was a good read but it ripped off Lord of the Rings way too much to be considered Jordan's best work. It's no easy feat to crib so much from Tolkien that you stand out in the modern fantasy genre, but he managed it. Fortunately there were practically no big plot points left to steal by the time EotW was done so the problem is fairly well restricted to that book. (Of course, one can and should make the excuse that Lord of the Rings is a corrupted version of the same story or whatever.) McNerd fucked around with this message at 19:43 on Apr 19, 2013 |
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Apr 19, 2013 19:33
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McNerd posted:EotW was a good read but it ripped off Lord of the Rings way too much to be considered Jordan's best work. It's no easy feat to crib so much from Tolkien that you stand out in the modern fantasy genre, but he managed it. Fortunately there were practically no big plot points left to steal by the time EotW was done so the problem is fairly well restricted to that book. He's got some original riffs on the theme even there. It's easy to forget now but the idea of having the gandalf-type character be a woman -- and not a sexy babe but a woman with her own independent goals, interested in the protagonist primarily as a tool -- was fairly revolutionary by the standards of the time. It was 1990, we're talking about a time where Piers Anthony was considered a major, cutting edge fantasy author. Same with the idea of having everyone scared as gently caress of the prophesied hero. The genre has come a long way since Eye of the World was written and Jordan should get more credit for that than he generally does. That said, I think the best book is either III or IV, with the Age of Legends sequence in IV standing out as the single best thing Jordan wrote.
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Apr 19, 2013 21:16
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