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The one thing I envy Jordan most for thinking of before I could was openly installing in-universe justification for endless deus ex machinae and Because The Plot Says So events (ta'veren being Old Tongue for "protagonist" and all that.)
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Apr 21, 2013 03:15
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I honestly think The Great Hunt is Jordan's best book. It still has a lot of mystery to it that we lose in the later books, and its really where Rand starts to develop into his own character with something approaching his own agency; the same applies to a lot of the other main characters in this book too. No longer is it a bunch of country kids going on some quest they don't really understand for unknown reasons, at the behest of Moiraine. I also really like the fact that it's the last book before Rand starts taking a bunch of Wizard levels, instead relying on his sword. No matter how unrealistic it was, I always enjoy the scene where Rand sneaks up on the Trolloc camp to steal the Horn of Valere, as well as the scenes where he has to basically bullshit being a leader to get people out of the portal world. Everything after the second book just feels less fantastical to me, as we begin to understand channeling more and get an idea of what Forsaken are capable of. Though the fourth book and eleventh book are also great books in the series, and there are definitely benefits to really getting into how the One Power works and making the Forsaken entirely human threats.
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Apr 21, 2013 11:24
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Eric the Mauve posted:The one thing I envy Jordan most for thinking of before I could was openly installing in-universe justification for endless deus ex machinae and Because The Plot Says So events (ta'veren being Old Tongue for "protagonist" and all that.) I did like all the little parts where people commented on it - Verin in TGH when she finds Rand already has invitations, Verin in TSR when Perrin convinces everyone to come to the main village, etc Think my favourite has to be in AMOL or TOM when Perrin tells Galad that he was there because Perrin (or rather, the plot) had needed him to be.
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Apr 21, 2013 20:04
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As more time passes since I finished, I get more pissed at how bad this last book was. Like seriously bad. The whole thing starts to just stink of Sanderson punching a clock and getting it done, but adding nothing. So much stuff left unanswered, way too much vague battle description, the horrible "revelation" of the nature of the DO, too many fights tipping over into his very DBZ type description and characters being very out of character. I think at this point, even with the few awesome moments we got from Sanderson's prior books, I'd rather it just died with Jordan. There was literally nothing aside from perhaps very small moments that was "good" about it.
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Apr 22, 2013 14:48
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AlternateAccount posted:As more time passes since I finished, I get more pissed at how bad this last book was. Like seriously bad. The whole thing starts to just stink of Sanderson punching a clock and getting it done, but adding nothing. So much stuff left unanswered, way too much vague battle description, the horrible "revelation" of the nature of the DO, too many fights tipping over into his very DBZ type description and characters being very out of character. I think at this point, even with the few awesome moments we got from Sanderson's prior books, I'd rather it just died with Jordan. There was literally nothing aside from perhaps very small moments that was "good" about it. I strongly suspect that had Jordan written it himself and Sanderson never been involved a lot of people would still feel the same way. There is no good way of ending The Wheel of Time. (Good meaning "satisfying to the majority of readers.")
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Apr 22, 2013 16:34
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Eric the Mauve posted:I strongly suspect that had Jordan written it himself and Sanderson never been involved a lot of people would still feel the same way. There is no good way of ending The Wheel of Time. (Good meaning "satisfying to the majority of readers.") I think the majority of readers are actually happy with the ending we got. A few people bitching isn't a majority of readers. But I'm making up my statistic just as much as you are
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Apr 22, 2013 17:36
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Actually I take the part about made up statistics back. Looking at reviews on Amazon out of about 1600 reviews around 1200 of them are 4 or 5 star reviews. Almost 1000 are 5 stars. Looks like a large majority is pretty happy with the ending.
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Apr 22, 2013 17:43
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I always got the feeling Jordan wrote most of the last book anyway. We'll never REALLY know how much of it he wrote and how much Sanderson did. However, I know if I were in the middle of a massive sprawling series and knew I had little time left, I'd focus the remainder of my energy on nailing the ending (and leave the remaining 'filler', AKA TGS and ToM) to whomever was going to pick up the pieces.
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Apr 22, 2013 19:12
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He wrote 200 pages, total, for the last three books combined so make that a "no". e: And what he wrote is like, draft 1 out of 12 or whatever crazy number of rewrites that duded liked to make before releasing anything.
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Apr 22, 2013 19:22
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Pimpmust posted:He wrote 200 pages, total, for the last three books combined so make that a "no". He wrote down 200 pages, but that's not all. For example, he was recorded telling the whole story of how it ends orally: that's a lot of plot nailed down even if it's not converted to prose that can go in the book.
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Apr 22, 2013 19:26
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evilweasel posted:He wrote down 200 pages, but that's not all. For example, he was recorded telling the whole story of how it ends orally: that's a lot of plot nailed down even if it's not converted to prose that can go in the book. Apparently they tried their damndest to convert that oral recording directly to book prose, where such oral recording existed, and it resulted in some really weird passages (that would otherwise have been fixed first thing) being attributed to Sanderson and not Jordan. So it's all kind of funny.
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Apr 22, 2013 21:26
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evilweasel posted:He wrote down 200 pages, but that's not all. For example, he was recorded telling the whole story of how it ends orally: that's a lot of plot nailed down even if it's not converted to prose that can go in the book. I believe 90% or so of the last part is from that, yeah. Not so much for the rest though, I mean Sanderson himself have gone straight out and talked about entire parts he made up from nothing, more or less. Not saying those parts were bad or whatever, but let's not pretend Jordan wrote the bulk of the book.
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Apr 22, 2013 21:36
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Does Sanderson's way of referencing established mythology bother anyone else? Jordan's references a ton of stuff from established mythology but he always seemed at least slightly subtle about it. Maybe not even subtle, but long winded enough that it seemed to work it's way into the story. For example when reading the description of the Aes Sedai Symbol, I didn't finish and go "that's a loving yin yang" even though when you think about it that's what it is (or at least a yin yang without the little dots). Sanderson's naming of [TOM Spoiler] Perrin's hammer as a misspelling of Mjölnir in ToM and his two sentence summary of the Robin Hood story with Birgitte as a female Robin Hood just seemed such blunt references that they took me out of the story and back to the real world. I suppose it is quite possible I am just misremembering things and giving Jordan more credit then is due, but his references seemed more integrated into the story to me. Edit: Added which book the spoiler is for. TheGreySpectre fucked around with this message at 23:03 on Apr 22, 2013 |
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Apr 22, 2013 22:23
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TheGreySpectre posted:Does Sanderson's way of referencing established mythology bother anyone else? Jordan's references a ton of stuff from established mythology but he always seemed at least slightly subtle about it. Maybe not even subtle, but long winded enough that it seemed to work it's way into the story. For example when reading the description of the Aes Sedai Symbol, I didn't finish and go "that's a loving yin yang" even though when you think about it that's what it is (or at least a yin yang without the little dots). ToM spoilers? In the absence of anything to contradict it, I'm going to assume the name of Perrin's hammer is in the notes as it seems like something Jordan would put in them. Suspect the idea of Birgitte as Robin Hood in another age would probably be there too, although I'd think the words are likely Brandon's. edit: Brandon has said the notes that Jordan had for the series are much much longer than the books (he said he put all the notes into a single Word doc, and Word gave up counting the pages after thirty two thousand pages and crashed), and Maria has said a lot of the notes were lists of all sorts of things. Tend to think those are aspects that would be listed. fordan fucked around with this message at 23:02 on Apr 22, 2013 |
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Apr 22, 2013 22:57
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fordan posted:ToM spoilers? I agree completely that putting the reference in seems like something Jordan would do. There are references sprinkled throughout all the books. Having Birgitte be Robin hood may have even been in the notes as something Jordan wanted referenced. I just think Jordan was significantly more eloquent with his references. The wording that Sanderson used made them stick out like a sore thumb to me.
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Apr 22, 2013 23:02
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TheGreySpectre posted:Does Sanderson's way of referencing established mythology bother anyone else? Jordan's references a ton of stuff from established mythology but he always seemed at least slightly subtle about it. Maybe not even subtle, but long winded enough that it seemed to work it's way into the story. For example when reading the description of the Aes Sedai Symbol, I didn't finish and go "that's a loving yin yang" even though when you think about it that's what it is (or at least a yin yang without the little dots). The main character is called Al'Thor, Jordan wasn't as subtle as you are remembering about putting mythological references into his books. I mean you have Jordan wasn't more subtle, you were younger. ED: The story of that super awesome Warden who only got beat one time by a farmer with a quarterstaff? Japanese mythology, The forsakens names? Villains from various mythologies. He even did a joke with a Mercedes hood ornament. Xachariah fucked around with this message at 23:16 on Apr 22, 2013 |
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Apr 22, 2013 23:12
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Xachariah posted:Jordan wasn't more subtle, you were younger. This is probably very true and the biggest reason. I need to go back and reread the earlier books.
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Apr 22, 2013 23:13
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Just looked a bunch of these up, gently caress me there's even a quote by Jordan saying 'yep I stole from everywhere but who's to say they didnt steal from me? It's a wheel of time see? Suck it bitches!' or words to that effect
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Apr 23, 2013 02:58
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Aargh posted:Just looked a bunch of these up, gently caress me there's even a quote by Jordan saying 'yep I stole from everywhere but who's to say they didnt steal from me? It's a wheel of time see? Suck it bitches!' or words to that effect Is there supposed to be something wrong with this? It's always been half the point of the entire Wheel of Time universe; it's not like he was trying to sneak something past us. I complained earlier about the fact that the whole plot of TEotW mirrors LotR rather heavily but except for this, for the most part the mythological allusions are pretty creative and novel as far as I'm aware. I mean for instance yeah he pulls the sword from the Stone but it's not like TDR was a lazy ripoff of Arthurian myth; it has an original plot which if anything must have taken more effort to weave these references into. The only thing that bugs me a bit is that names and other details are supposed to change with each turning of the Wheel, but that's undermined because there are names and other specific details that place the WoT books in both our past and our future. It sounds nitpicky but the fact that things do change from cycle to cycle is really integral, or else the Dark One actually can't ever win. I'd rather he'd just stuck with one or the other, past or future, or at least kept the references on one side very vague and general.
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Apr 23, 2013 03:45
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McNerd posted:Is there supposed to be something wrong with this? It's always been half the point of the entire Wheel of Time universe; it's not like he was trying to sneak something past us. There's nothing really wrong with it except from the whole momumentally lazy character development. I'd known about a bunch of them but reading into how pretty much each and every main character, their name and story line has been lifted from somewhere else and he hasn't really changed their names, well thats even lazier than I knew.
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Apr 23, 2013 05:00
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Xachariah posted:and wielding a sword he got in  Oh, goddammit. I never caught that one, somehow. Anyway I also feel that Sanderson's writing was a bit clumsier than Jordan's. They're almost polar opposites at times. Sanderson might give two sentences to describe someone's outfit where Jordan would spend a page or so. They write characters quite a bit differently and so on. And I just plain prefered Jordan's style. I'm happy that we got to finish the series but of course I'd rather that Jordan had been able to do it.
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Apr 23, 2013 05:11
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Don't forget every single Trolloc tribe being the name of some mythical monster, or hell the name "Trolloc" itself. Plus the other monsters, too. What make Jordan interesting to me is he takes these obvious references but still weaves them in. I hated EotW because I read it right after taking an eastern religions class and the shallow references to Tao and the elements frustrated me. Then I realized it was supposed to be like that, like our world but just a little different, and I got to enjoy the rest of it much more.
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Apr 23, 2013 16:37
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Arrath posted:
A surprisngly large number of people don't. I think it's a testament to Jordan's talent that he's able to weave it in so blatantly yet so subtly at the same time.
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Apr 23, 2013 16:50
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Aargh posted:There's nothing really wrong with it except from the whole momumentally lazy character development. I'd known about a bunch of them but reading into how pretty much each and every main character, their name and story line has been lifted from somewhere else and he hasn't really changed their names, well thats even lazier than I knew. Where have you been "reading into" this; do you have any links? I'm not much of a mythology buff so I'm open to being corrected, and would be interested to read further, but I really think you're severely exaggerating. Mat's personality is totally different from my understanding of Odin. He's immature and honestly gets tricked as often as he is the trickster, instead skating by on his luck in his major encounters (such as his encounters with the Finns, every single one of which he bungles). As far as I can tell Odin didn't even have good luck and wasn't associated in any way with gambling. For another example, I'm not aware that Galahad was classically portrayed as taking his purity to a real fault, which of course is the whole point of everything Galad does. You couldn't be too pure to search for the Grail; Arthurian legend is not exactly designed to portray religious zealotry in a negative light. We could go through this for every character that has such allusions associated with them. The WoT books constantly beat you over the head with the idea that old legends get more wrong than they get right, and Jordan goes to as much trouble exploring this idea as he does planting these allusions in the first place. Finally, do you honestly think Jordan was just "too lazy" to make up a couple dozen names or so, as opposed to making a deliberate creative decision? And then this lazy man proceeded to make up ten jillion names and Old Tongue words, and to write the most elaborate fantasy series in the history of ever? I'm sorry that this comes out sounding sarcastic but I'm being sincere: when it comes to the names I honestly cannot understand where you're coming from. McNerd fucked around with this message at 17:30 on Apr 23, 2013 |
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Apr 23, 2013 16:58
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The only (admittedly minor) thing that drove me nuts was when he listed the 12 tribes of trollocs, I think back in the first book. They were all variations of common words like 'devil' or 'demon' or 'ghoul' or things like that. Does anyone else remember that passage?
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Apr 23, 2013 18:59
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syphon posted:The only (admittedly minor) thing that drove me nuts was when he listed the 12 tribes of trollocs, I think back in the first book. They were all variations of common words like 'devil' or 'demon' or 'ghoul' or things like that. Does anyone else remember that passage? I think it's in the glossary. I dunno, I thought it was kinda cool.
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Apr 23, 2013 19:15
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syphon posted:The only (admittedly minor) thing that drove me nuts was when he listed the 12 tribes of trollocs, I think back in the first book. They were all variations of common words like 'devil' or 'demon' or 'ghoul' or things like that. Does anyone else remember that passage? Yeah someone brought this up like three posts ago. I think it's a cool idea but wasn't followed through properly. Obviously the point is that all these different folklore monsters are just distorted tales of Trollocs, and people have forgotten that all these names basically referred to the same sorts of beings. But the problem is almost nobody in the books ever uses these tribe names. You probably have to be a Borderlander to even know there are different tribes, and even Borderlander soldiers rarely bother to tell one tribe from another. But we're supposed to believe that some time after the Last Battle once the Trollocs were gone, people started telling stories about Dha'Vol Trollocs in particular? It doesn't make sense. Now if for instance the Dha'Vols were known for their horns and their cunning, and maybe they terrorized a certain region so much that in that region their name was spoken as often as the word Trolloc itself, then that would be pretty cool. I can only guess Jordan intended to do something like this and later decided that fleshing out all the tribes would take up too much space. (Though honestly I think he dropped the ball on this one; it should have been pretty easy to make the basic idea credible.) McNerd fucked around with this message at 20:18 on Apr 23, 2013 |
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Apr 23, 2013 20:05
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Jordans references and creative cribbin' is *everywhere*, yet even on rereads I find that stuff pretty clever most of the time (hidden in plain sight if nothing else). It's not like he's the only writer who does it, but he's a lot more upfront about it and yet again, sneaking stuff in well enough for the reader to go "a-ha!" every once and awhile. There's a long list of writers who didn't even bother to go further than "Let's copy 90% of Tolkiens structure/creatures and call it a day!  " (ESPECIALLY at the time the first couple of books were written), if Jordan wanted to loan a couple of Arthurian/Eastern myths for his stuff instead I can't exactly blame him.To this day it's hard to find (fantasy) writers that put as much effort into this poo poo as Jordan did. I'll take mythological cribbing over Whedonism and Hollywood Fantasy any loving day 
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Apr 23, 2013 22:40
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McNerd posted:For another example, I'm not aware that Galahad was classically portrayed as taking his purity to a real fault, which of course is the whole point of everything Galad does. You couldn't be too pure to search for the Grail; Arthurian legend is not exactly designed to portray religious zealotry in a negative light. White takes a lot of other liberties with the story, like Lancelot is actually really ugly and a sadist (which is why he's such a good fighter), something that torments him along with his other sins, like fathering a child out of wedlock (Galahad, actually) and cheating with Guinivere. Galahad achieving the Holy Grail, despite being the product of his sin, is a big part of Lancelot's redemption in the story. I actually highly recommend White's interpretation of Arthurian legend, it's hilarious and depressing in all the best ways, and makes all the characters involved realistic and sympathetic people with all the attendant frustrations. His portrayal of Merlin is my personal favorite interpretation.
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Apr 23, 2013 23:28
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Besides which, it's not like anyone would actually be complaining if Jordan had actually straight-up written his own take on classic mythology like, say, all these people. I don't consider them to be especially lazy and derivative writers by virtue of having chosen such projects to work on, but if that description were to apply to Jordan it would certainly apply much more to them. Or from another perspective, you very well could group Jordan with these writers, in which case he probably comes out looking like the most creative of the bunch. Edit: ^^^ Cool, thanks. That's rather embarrassing as I read The Once and Future King back in my school days. Edit 2: I was aware of the story that Guinevere cheated with someone, though forgot it was Lancelot. I always figured Egwene's winding up with Gawyn instead of Rand was intended to be the source of that story, since as far as I can tell Lancelot is nowhere in sight and is probably a composite of various other figures. (For those who tend to miss this stuff, try saying "Egwene al'Vere" out loud.) McNerd fucked around with this message at 23:45 on Apr 23, 2013 |
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Apr 23, 2013 23:36
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McNerd posted:For another example, I'm not aware that Galahad was classically portrayed as taking his purity to a real fault, which of course is the whole point of everything Galad does. You couldn't be too pure to search for the Grail; Arthurian legend is not exactly designed to portray religious zealotry in a negative light. That's kind of the point - tales expand in the telling and faults are glossed over. Galahad is portrayed as the gentil parfait knight, the height of chivalry and purity. If you met someone like that, though, you would probably think they were an insufferable dick. Galad is the man, not the legend.
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Apr 24, 2013 00:34
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McNerd posted:Yeah someone brought this up like three posts ago. Trollocs cease being important for so long that I almost forgot about them when they made a return to the series. When the series leaves its LotR origins and starts exploring the Seanchan and the White Tower/Forsaken stuff, they really take the back seat. It feels like they're two different stories mashed together.
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Apr 24, 2013 00:38
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McNerd posted:I think it's a cool idea but wasn't followed through properly. Obviously the point is that all these different folklore monsters are just distorted tales of Trollocs, and people have forgotten that all these names basically referred to the same sorts of beings. Or the reverse, in the age of legends those were the scary names from scary stories lying around to give to the Trolloc tribes.
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Apr 24, 2013 01:08
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McNerd posted:as far as I can tell Lancelot is nowhere in sight and is probably a composite of various other figures Lan is Lancelot. In Arthurian legend, Lancelot is the Lord of the Lake. Lan is the Lord of the (Thousand) Lakes. Nynaeve is Nyneve, the Lady of the Lake.
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Apr 24, 2013 01:24
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evilweasel posted:Or the reverse, in the age of legends those were the scary names from scary stories lying around to give to the Trolloc tribes. I prefer it the other way. They're genetically engineered hellbeasts, not sports teams; it is pretty lame if you have to call them the Devils to make them scary. Augster posted:Lan is Lancelot. In Arthurian legend, Lancelot is the Lord of the Lake. Lan is the Lord of the (Thousand) Lakes. Not sure how I missed that, but nice. I wonder if the whole story about Lan throwing Moiraine in a lake is in that mix too? I guess probably not, since she never lets him tell that story. Can't say for sure because although I've read parts of this series five or more times I could not force myself through New Spring.
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Apr 24, 2013 01:40
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 I can definitely see Moiraine "Magical lady thrown in a lake" Damodred being part of the background for the Lady of the Lake as well as the previously stated Nyneve=Nynaeve connection. It's really neat how many little nods and winks and blatant theivery Jordan packed into his stories, like the whole thing with Norse mythology. Even though the character named al'Thor and the character that resembles Thor are completely different, and Mat's personality is more like Loki's even though he fits Odin to a T.
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Apr 24, 2013 02:20
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Could be, but on the other hand Moiraine is at least named after the Moirai. Wheel of Time ingredients: 2 lbs. Arthurian legend 1/2 cup Eastern mythology 3 sprigs of Norse A dash of Greek myth A pinch of Celtic Sprinkles of Christianity, Islam, Zoroastrianism Stir thoroughly. Serves 15.
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Apr 24, 2013 02:43
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I've been meaning to ask, is Mat's name a reference to anything? Rand is pretty obvious and I assume Perrin's name is in reference to this guy but Mat's still a blank to me. I guess Cauthon could be Odin but it seems a bit of a stretch. Or is there a reference in whatever name Fortuona gave him in the last book? Speaking of questions I've been meaning to ask, what's everyone's favorite mythological reference in the series? Personally I really enjoyed the Merlin/Moiraine/Thom thing, although Mah'allaneir or however it's spelled is pretty sweet. edit: quote:Could be, but on the other hand Moiraine is at least named after the Moirai. That's pretty cool, didn't know about that one. But I'm still pretty sure that as mentioned above, Merlin is supposed to be a mix of her and Thom. Of course these things aren't mutually exclusive.
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Apr 24, 2013 02:49
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evilweasel posted:Or the reverse, in the age of legends those were the scary names from scary stories lying around to give to the Trolloc tribes.
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Apr 24, 2013 03:21
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I wonder if that influenced Jordan's decision to have Nynaeve break her wall while underwater?
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Apr 24, 2013 06:35
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