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Flumbooze posted:Don't take me wrong. I can only put about 2 hours, 3 hours max a day in these games. Maybe it's because I'm not a teenager anymore, but if you're putting 2-3 hours into a game on a daily basis I don't think you qualify in any way as a "casual" player.
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Apr 23, 2013 23:17
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Flumbooze posted:Don't take me wrong. I can only put about 2 hours, 3 hours max a day in these games. But I don't need to have everything right at the start and actually want to put some effort into it. Not because of satisfaction,but because it gives me a goal and gives value to what you do 3 hours a day puts you quite far above being a "casual" player. e:fb
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Apr 23, 2013 23:17
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Wheeee posted:Maybe it's because I'm not a teenager anymore, but if you're putting 2-3 hours into a game on a daily basis I don't think you qualify in any way as a "casual" player. 3 hours is only on Friday and in the weekend. During the week I can play about 1-2 hours.
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Apr 23, 2013 23:19
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CLAM DOWN posted:You're fighting against the idea of a cash shop when it's basically a given, it's a lost cause. It's not original WoW era circa 2004 anymore. Elitism based on how many hours you had in a week to kill a virtual dragon isn't the big thing these days. Except end game is based around 40 man raids and they've said they're seriously considering a monthly subscription model. It sounds like their main Devs are old school vanilla WoW raiders who want that play style to return with some more modern advancements in combat and crafting. Just not sure how you can have a successful MMO nowadays where your endgame is based around the 1% who can manage to schedule their life around 40 man raids while the other 99% fund their fun with their subscription fees.
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Apr 23, 2013 23:25
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From what they've said I believe the raids really are supposed to only be for the hardcore but they're planning on having all sorts of other content for people who don't want to/can't raid. So if everything goes as they plan the more casual players won't be "Funding the hardcore endgame for the 1%".
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Apr 24, 2013 00:18
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Hey, quiet down with all this blustery chat. I believe someone mentioned something earlier about cookies?
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Apr 24, 2013 00:24
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Bloody Hedgehog posted:Hey, quiet down with all this blustery chat. Yes, they were mentioned in the high five memo.
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Apr 24, 2013 00:51
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Flumbooze posted:But there were people back then as well that didn't have the time to spend on video games just like there are people now that do have the time. Just because you don't have the time to get an item in a week (or in whatever time you want it) doesn't mean you should be able to pay for it. These people tended to pay third parties for leveling services, in-game valuables, and even accounts with pre-leveled and geared characters. It goes back at least to UO, with the guy who paid five grand for a castle and supporting account on a busy server, and at this point demand is high enough that hacking clients and accounts to steal valuables for resale has become a full-fledged industry. I'm touchy about microtransactions too. I love cosmetic stuff and classes/powers that I can't otherwise get, but I never touch things like XP boosters or gear. I've seen a few really ugly, chiseling in-client stores too, sure. Ultimately though, if people are going to spend money to make their lives easier in the game, I'd rather it go to the developers. It chokes out the scammers and funnels more money toward development and maintenance of the game itself.
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Apr 24, 2013 01:48
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Catsworth posted:From what they've said I believe the raids really are supposed to only be for the hardcore but they're planning on having all sorts of other content for people who don't want to/can't raid. I keep seeing people saying this but how is this any different from Vanilla Wow, I don't understand? All the stuff they are putting in for the people who don't want to/can't raid was in vanilla WoW too. 5 mans, PvP Battlegrounds, crafting all existed at 60 in Vanilla WoW. But we all know that the 1% 40 man raiders got the best items not only in power but in looks and got to sit on their mount AFK at the mailbox so the common casuals could worship them like the gods that they are. Not sure how Carbine is going to prevent this community split from happening which caused Blizzard to dump 40 man raids since nobody likes to be a second class citizen in a game they're paying for. Though I'm not sure they want to since most of the Devs appear to be from that 1% 40 man raid camp.
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Apr 24, 2013 02:51
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Rylek posted:I keep seeing people saying this but how is this any different from Vanilla Wow, I don't understand? All the stuff they are putting in for the people who don't want to/can't raid was in vanilla WoW too. 5 mans, PvP Battlegrounds, crafting all existed at 60 in Vanilla WoW. By not making the best gear only attainable in the raids?
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Apr 24, 2013 03:05
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Rylek posted:Not sure how Carbine is going to prevent this community split from happening which caused Blizzard to dump 40 man raids since nobody likes to be a second class citizen in a game they're paying for. Though I'm not sure they want to since most of the Devs appear to be from that 1% 40 man raid camp. I haven't seen much in the way of them not wanting this kind of split in the first place. The core of a lot of things look to be Vanilla Wow, with some nice window dressing like player housing.
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Apr 24, 2013 03:08
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Doh004 posted:By not making the best gear only attainable in the raids? I have no issue with poop-socking gear being better as long as I can stay competitive without it.
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Apr 24, 2013 03:10
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Doh004 posted:By not making the best gear only attainable in the raids? You think you can convince the hardcore to do a 40 man raid if they're not being rewarded the best gear in the game that can't be obtained through other means? If Carbine has solved that problem they should sell it to Blizzard for a billion dollars. 25man vs 10man arguments almost turn to bloodshed, and that is 2 groups doing the same raid just tuned differently. Imagine telling a hardcore 40 man raider that I can get his Super Sword of Destruction by doing a 5 man, he would literally bomb Carbine's studio. Despite my skepticism I really hope you're right. I raided 40 mans in Vanilla but don't have the time or patience to do that again. This 40 man raid endgame is the only thing I've heard about the game so far that has me concerned, because I see no way they can keep both camps happy.
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Apr 24, 2013 03:14
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If the devs (or anybody really) would just make a 1:1 vanilla wow clone that removed all the 'quality of life' expansion improvements that depopulated the actual world and the miserably unfun daily quest structure I would buy it + pay a subscription forever.
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Apr 24, 2013 03:26
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CLAM DOWN posted:Stuff Clam Down is interested in Wildstar? Can it be dental time yet? On another note, I'm super skeptical of any MMO after I felt duped by Guild Wars 2. I found out very quickly that although I thought otherwise, I really do enjoy the traditional holy trinity or something along the likes.
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Apr 24, 2013 03:54
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Runefaust posted:On another note, I'm super skeptical of any MMO after I felt duped by Guild Wars 2. I found out very quickly that although I thought otherwise, I really do enjoy the traditional holy trinity or something along the likes. Yeah, I came to the same realization after playing the neverwinter beta a few weeks ago. I hadn't played any mmos since gw2 and it was nice to have a "set" role.
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Apr 24, 2013 04:11
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Rylek posted:You think you can convince the hardcore to do a 40 man raid if they're not being rewarded the best gear in the game that can't be obtained through other means? If Carbine has solved that problem they should sell it to Blizzard for a billion dollars. 25man vs 10man arguments almost turn to bloodshed, and that is 2 groups doing the same raid just tuned differently. Imagine telling a hardcore 40 man raider that I can get his Super Sword of Destruction by doing a 5 man, he would literally bomb Carbine's studio. If it requires the same "amount" of effort then sure, why not. In the end, I've stopped worrying about video games. This game looks fun, I'll buy it and play it. If I get to the point where it sucks I'll stop.
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Apr 24, 2013 04:47
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trem posted:Yeah, I came to the same realization after playing the neverwinter beta a few weeks ago. I hadn't played any mmos since gw2 and it was nice to have a "set" role. One of the ideas I had that I wish someone would hop on is to hold to the holy trinity - but only for combat scenarios. What I mean is that combat should require a dedicated tank, healer and damage dealer, but an MMO where EVERY class has the option to fill each role depending on their build and gear. For instance - having a rogue that could not only deal damage, but effectively tank fights through the use of dodging and gear that brings up the stats. While that doesn't seem new, what about a rogue who can do those things PLUS have a healing build, where the rogue can sacrifice both his dodging and damage potential to focus on a build that debuffs the enemy with poisons that make the enemy not only attack slower and less powerful, but also specialize in some sort of shadow magic the heals allied players wounds. Same goes with warrior, ranged and healing archtypes. Warriors that can enable their party to heal through the damage the party does, a ranged hunter who can choose pets that can not only tank as well as plated up front fighters but also pets that can heal, healers who, through the use of holy magic, can specialize in tanking. You get the picture. Holy trinity isn't the issue in my opinion, it's when you play a class that can only do a single job or 2 within the trinity, or can do the job only half rear end. Let any class be able to do anything effectively, but make it so that in order to be effective at it you have to sacrifice being good at one of the other two roles within the trinity.
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Apr 24, 2013 05:02
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Yeah that was the idea behind the Soul system in Rift.
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Apr 24, 2013 05:08
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socialsecurity posted:Yeah that was the idea behind the Soul system in Rift. I've never tried Rift due to being turned off by the art style of it - just not my cup of tea. Does it work well in Rift?
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Apr 24, 2013 05:12
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That's basically what turned me off to Tera. Loved most of the game but I just could not play a game where my class did one thing and one thing only. Rift spoiled me I guess, but really hoping the classes in wildstar have at least more than one option. Have we even seen any healers?Runefaust posted:I've never tried Rift due to being turned off by the art style of it - just not my cup of tea. Does it work well in Rift? At max level in Rift you have 6 role slots that you can swap between any time out of combat. Each role slot is a combination of 3 of your 9 available souls. 3 of the 4 classes can tank, 2 of the 4 can main heal, all 4 can dps, 3 or 4 have raid needed support souls. My mage's roles are leveling, ranged dps, main heal, ranged aoe dps, melee dps, and a combo damage/heal support build. I don't have to swap gear, and swapping between them takes 3 seconds. I really hope other games steal that style of system! Eltoasto fucked around with this message at 05:15 on Apr 24, 2013 |
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Apr 24, 2013 05:12
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Runefaust posted:I've never tried Rift due to being turned off by the art style of it - just not my cup of tea. Does it work well in Rift? Yes actually, everyone can't do everything but there are 4 base classes each with 9 souls to pick from that work like talent trees. Say I am a Cleric I could be a tank/ranged damage/melee damage/healer(several different kinds) just based on how I assign my points into souls. You can even save templates and switch on the fly, say your halfway through an instance and your tank leaves you can go Tank with a splash of healing and your Mage who was dealing damage before can switch to healing, if he isn't up to snuff your damage dealing rogue can go bard and buff/side heal all of this takes 30 seconds.
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Apr 24, 2013 05:17
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Rylek posted:Despite my skepticism I really hope you're right. I raided 40 mans in Vanilla but don't have the time or patience to do that again. This 40 man raid endgame is the only thing I've heard about the game so far that has me concerned, because I see no way they can keep both camps happy. He says something like "Yea we have some guys into that but really they hate doing it. they're all masochists" 
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Apr 24, 2013 05:42
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Doh004 posted:If it requires the same "amount" of effort then sure, why not. How could it ever require the same sort of effort? Jackard posted:The dev in the first TotalBiscuit video mentions wanting to add 40man raids and gets questioned about hardcore raiders on their team. I really think you should take that as a joke, and I think what he's actually saying is: yes, 40 man raids will be hard and they're only for the hardcore players. Or masochists. Spider2414 fucked around with this message at 06:26 on Apr 24, 2013 |
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Apr 24, 2013 06:20
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Jackard posted:The dev in the first TotalBiscuit video mentions wanting to add 40man raids and gets questioned about hardcore raiders on their team. 40 man raiders do it to feel superior to the rest of the playerbase, not for fun. Also, I hope for those people's sake (I can't really get into 40man raids again) that Carbine at least implements a decent raid loot system, beyond "need or greed". Dkp was a loving pain in the rear end. Specially if you had to take care of that AND raid lead, now that's masochism.
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Apr 24, 2013 06:41
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Hugoon Chavez posted:40 man raiders do it to feel superior to the rest of the playerbase, not for fun. One of my first raids was in Molten Core like a decade ago and some 15 year old lunatic guilder leader yelled at me for 15 minutes full of rage because I didn't bring enough of some fire resist pot. He then went on to explain the 18 hour a week raid schedule and if you missed one you couldn't raid. I would like to find and thank that person as he made it so I wasn't tempted to deal with any of that bullshit ever again.
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Apr 24, 2013 07:00
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socialsecurity posted:One of my first raids was in Molten Core like a decade ago and some 15 year old lunatic guilder leader yelled at me for 15 minutes full of rage because I didn't bring enough of some fire resist pot. He then went on to explain the 18 hour a week raid schedule and if you missed one you couldn't raid. I would like to find and thank that person as he made it so I wasn't tempted to deal with any of that bullshit ever again. Hahaha were we in the same guild way back when? I had an almost identical experience. I was a dumbass student with no willpower back then so it took a couple months to wise up and quit but yeah, never going back there again.
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Apr 24, 2013 07:01
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socialsecurity posted:One of my first raids was in Molten Core like a decade ago and some 15 year old lunatic guilder leader yelled at me for 15 minutes full of rage because I didn't bring enough of some fire resist pot. He then went on to explain the 18 hour a week raid schedule and if you missed one you couldn't raid. I would like to find and thank that person as he made it so I wasn't tempted to deal with any of that bullshit ever again. Then you joined a lovely guild. Schedules are pretty normal but not in the way you describe. Theleader was just a guy with nothing else to do in his life. A shame he expected others to follow him.
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Apr 24, 2013 07:08
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Eltoasto posted:That's basically what turned me off to Tera. Loved most of the game but I just could not play a game where my class did one thing and one thing only. Rift spoiled me I guess, but really hoping the classes in wildstar have at least more than one option. Have we even seen any healers?
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Apr 24, 2013 07:23
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Rylek posted:You think you can convince the hardcore to do a 40 man raid if they're not being rewarded the best gear in the game that can't be obtained through other means? If Carbine has solved that problem they should sell it to Blizzard for a billion dollars. 25man vs 10man arguments almost turn to bloodshed, and that is 2 groups doing the same raid just tuned differently. Imagine telling a hardcore 40 man raider that I can get his Super Sword of Destruction by doing a 5 man, he would literally bomb Carbine's studio. Yeah, because a hardcore 40-man raider should probably be doing it because he likes doing it, not to have the best gear. You can even make the gear look different but have equivalent stats so that everyone knows he's better than them, but when it comes to pvp and such he's not miles ahead of everyone else. If you're doing 40-man raiding because you want the best gear, and not because of the challenge or the experience, then you're really doing it for the wrong reason. In the end gear doesn't mean diddly except what new content you unlock by finally being tall enough to ride, and so if you don't like any of the rides why are you spending all this time getting taller to ride them? It seems, from what we've heard from the devs, that wildstar is taking the carrot on a stick approach and just saying "Well why don't we just make the entire game about eating carrots?" and stuffing the game full of short term goals to achieve that are actually fun to do, not grinding furbolgs for 60 hours to get exalted with the timbermaw. Of course then we'll all start complaining that these drat cheetos taste horrible and we got sick from eating too many too fast.
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Apr 24, 2013 07:26
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I stabbed so many furblogs leveling my rogue from 58-60.
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Apr 24, 2013 07:31
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Bauxite posted:Yeah, because a hardcore 40-man raider should probably be doing it because he likes doing it, not to have the best gear. You can even make the gear look different but have equivalent stats so that everyone knows he's better than them, but when it comes to pvp and such he's not miles ahead of everyone else. If you're doing 40-man raiding because you want the best gear, and not because of the challenge or the experience, then you're really doing it for the wrong reason. In the end gear doesn't mean diddly except what new content you unlock by finally being tall enough to ride, and so if you don't like any of the rides why are you spending all this time getting taller to ride them? If you raid, you're doing it for both. Obviously to experience such a thing and have a great (but sometimes frustrating) time and also to achieve something. I think that, if you finally kill that last boss that you've struggled with for so long with 39 other people helping you, you get a really good feeling. The better gear is indeed just a way of saying 'hey, I did this and I'm actually proud of it.'
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Apr 24, 2013 12:07
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Flumbooze posted:How could it ever require the same sort of effort? Don't know, not a game designer. socialsecurity posted:One of my first raids was in Molten Core like a decade ago and some 15 year old lunatic guilder leader yelled at me for 15 minutes full of rage because I didn't bring enough of some fire resist pot. He then went on to explain the 18 hour a week raid schedule and if you missed one you couldn't raid. I would like to find and thank that person as he made it so I wasn't tempted to deal with any of that bullshit ever again. I would never want to return to the schedule that I used to have when I did the 40 man raids in Vanilla WoW; however, I would love to do 40 man raids again. Fortunately, I'm older and wiser and know the type of people I'd like to play with in order to achieve that - just as you are now. Just because raiding was like that 10 years ago doesn't mean it HAS to be like that now.
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Apr 24, 2013 12:08
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socialsecurity posted:One of my first raids was in Molten Core like a decade ago and some 15 year old lunatic guilder leader yelled at me for 15 minutes full of rage because I didn't bring enough of some fire resist pot. He then went on to explain the 18 hour a week raid schedule and if you missed one you couldn't raid. I would like to find and thank that person as he made it so I wasn't tempted to deal with any of that bullshit ever again. Haha, yeah I had a similar experience just trying to get into a raid with my first WoW guild. It was explained there was a pecking order and all this other bullshit that basically meant if you couldn't dedicate your life to the game - you'd never get a chance to raid. I've never even bothered trying to raid in any other game since. Raiding to me is the opposite of fun. I use gaming to get away from work and responsibility, not to feel like I'm working a second job and have to commit a certain amount of time to it in order to be "allowed" to participate.
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Apr 24, 2013 14:02
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The argument against 40 man raids is predicated on a vast lack of imagination. WoW, Rift, and quite a few other games have moved away from the large raid force model simply because they didn't put much in the way of imagination into their boss fights. The boss fight is concerned pretty much entirely with one actor - the boss. There may be some adds, there may be some minor mechanics, but on the whole the raid's direct target, and direct threat, is the boss itself and the abilities that boss has. The problem with using that model with large raid forces is that it's functionally impossible to both tune a fight to make all players crucial, and not make the fight induce a puppy-kicking rage due to failing it over and over and over thanks to a few people screwing up. That's not to say that people are any less likely individually to screw up with a smaller raid size, but that the likelihood of it happening for the raid as a whole is lower due to the number of people. That's why they moved away from 40 man raids, not because people couldn't sustain 40 man rosters. Smaller raid size = more tightly controlled and tuned fight = less likelihood of someone devolving into a screaming hate fit on Ventrilo. There were only a very small number of 40 man encounters in WoW where the entire raid had to be on point - for the most part a good half of your raid force could wander through the encounter half asleep. That being said, there's a lot of other encounter models to use that avoid that problem - namely by making the boss NPC itself only one part of the encounter, and instead having multiple objectives throughout the fight that lend themselves more toward small group play mechanics and tactics. Bauxite posted:Yeah, because a hardcore 40-man raider should probably be doing it because he likes doing it, not to have the best gear. You can even make the gear look different but have equivalent stats so that everyone knows he's better than them, but when it comes to pvp and such he's not miles ahead of everyone else. If you're doing 40-man raiding because you want the best gear, and not because of the challenge or the experience, then you're really doing it for the wrong reason. While I agree with that in theory, in practice the vast majority of hardcore raiders appear to disagree with you, based on the deafening screams of outrage that erupt in every game when the developers make it so that you can get the same gear through multiple levels of difficulty. Beyond that, screwing up the risk/effort vs. reward formula is pretty much at the root of how the MMORPG genre has ended up in its current lovely state.
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Apr 24, 2013 14:11
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Flarestar posted:The argument against 40 man raids is predicated on a vast lack of imagination. No, it's predicated on experience. 40 man raids and the people who love them have always been pretty lovely, and no rational person wants to go back to those Molten Core/BWL/AQ40 days. We can only hope that the Wildstar devs are competent enough (they seem to be so far) to offer alternatives or not go about this in a bad way.
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Apr 24, 2013 16:26
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CLAM DOWN posted:No, it's predicated on experience. 40 man raids and the people who love them have always been pretty lovely, and no rational person wants to go back to those Molten Core/BWL/AQ40 days. We can only hope that the Wildstar devs are competent enough (they seem to be so far) to offer alternatives or not go about this in a bad way. You just agreed with what he said. The "vast lack of imagination" is the same thing as going "about this in a bad way" or not offering alternatives.
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Apr 24, 2013 16:50
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CLAM DOWN posted:No, it's predicated on experience. 40 man raids and the people who love them have always been pretty lovely, and no rational person wants to go back to those Molten Core/BWL/AQ40 days. We can only hope that the Wildstar devs are competent enough (they seem to be so far) to offer alternatives or not go about this in a bad way. Your experience is largely based on fights designed with a lack of imagination. Which was my point. Molten Core and BWL (except for Razorgore) contained very anemic encounters and really didn't do much to challenge players and provide good gameplay. Most of AQ40 was that way too - one or two gimmicks but for the most part you could snooze through the place. However, not all of the 40 man encounters in WoW were lovely and boring. Specifically, the latter parts of AQ40 were some of the best encounters designed in that entire game - Twin Emps and C'thun (once he was fixed) were pretty awesome, and people who actually got to experience them generally loved them. High level of engagement for the entire raid, lot of coordination requirements, etc. Original Naxxramas was another exception, despite the ball-busting difficulty of the place in its 40-man incarnation. Other than the rather small number of straight up DPS check fights, the encounters in there were designed pretty imaginatively, and it showed. Most of those fights still weren't really going too far outside the box, but even without doing so, how you design the encounters in terms of challenging the players makes a big difference in player perception. There's a ton of things you can do with a larger raid force that simply aren't possible with a smaller raid size due to the number of players available to fill a given role. Whether larger raid sizes succeeds in Wild Star is far more reliant on the creativity and imagination of the encounter designers than it is on the number of players the encounter is designed for.
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Apr 24, 2013 17:00
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Flarestar posted:Your experience is largely based on fights designed with a lack of imagination. Which was my point. Molten Core and BWL (except for Razorgore) contained very anemic encounters and really didn't do much to challenge players and provide good gameplay. Most of AQ40 was that way too - one or two gimmicks but for the most part you could snooze through the place. Fair enough. But my experience of 40-person raids being lovely is because of far more than just unimaginative/boring encounters. The time historically required along with rigid scheduling and the attitudes that came with it are the biggest reasons why it's lovely. If Wildstar can include 40-man raids for the tiny portion of people who demand them, and not bring that culture of elitism that comes with it, I'm stoked.
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Apr 24, 2013 17:08
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40 person raids or 10 person raids, I personally don't give a poo poo because raiding is god awful no matter what you do. Hopefully Warplots actually turn out to be a fun and meaningful thing to do.
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Apr 24, 2013 17:23
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