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Samurai Sanders posted:From what I have heard, Germany is an absolute model of how a country in their situation should deal with their former war atrocities, across the board. I didn't bring it up much, 'cause it's old hat, but I never got the idea that it was ignored or that they didn't know about it and the few times I did they seemed to be very knowledgeable about what Germany had done. This was a Gymnasium (highest tier German highschool) though. Dunno if it's different in other types. Contrast that with the Japanese university students we get here and it's pretty grim. There was at this one party where we were explaining how the Nazis indirectly gave Iceland its independence and some ijeet brought up Japanese warcrimes and most of them either didn't know much or didn't feel comfortable talking about it, which in a way is worse. Ehh. Anecdotal, I know. But it seems to fit.
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Apr 23, 2013 19:52
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Deceitful Penguin posted:When I was studying in Germany, I asked to be put in class with some of the younger kids for the classes where there was no point in me being there (Not gonna learn much Spanish or French when I don't even know German) and it was fascinating to see how kids as young as 12 were learning about the atrocities done by the Nazis and how it should never be repeated, while the older ones were reading works like Nathan the Wise about the importance of multiculturalism and poo poo. I remember some talking head, a historian or cultural expert of some kind, who said that the actions and behavior of the Imperial Army and Navy were so antithetical to the way traditional Japanese culture viewed warfare that many people try to minimize it as much as possible because of the 'shame' aspect. The subject came up in the GBS thread about all of the bomb threats being made and the police arresting multiple innocent people and forcing them to confess. Even after being released and fully cleared the shame of their arrest still hangs over them and most of them lost their jobs anyways. Now take that and apply it to an entire national cultural perspective. Or, and I don't know how true it us, the politicians writing the laws and setting the educational agenda are either deep in the nationalists pockets or nationalists themselves, and entire generations of Japanese schoolchildren just grew up having it glossed over to the point where few people outside of university historians or academics really understand why the "comfort women" international disputes are such a big deal.
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Apr 23, 2013 20:14
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Samurai Sanders posted:From what I have heard, Germany is an absolute model of how a country in their situation should deal with their former war atrocities, across the board. If you think it images and symbols should be illegal than sure, otherwise no.
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Apr 24, 2013 01:54
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The activities of the occupying forces post-war had differing and continuing effects to the present-day. Japan was never really "de-Nazified" because the US had different priorities for Japan, its government, and relations with its immediate neighbors. It's not just that Germans are an especially contrite people or the Japanese especially callous. While Japan hopefully finds a way to come to terms with the past along with its neighbors, nothing like Germany has gone through is going to start 70 years and two generations down the line. The chance for Japan's war generation to learn from their country's actions and pass those attitudes on is already gone forever. Subsequent generations are never going to feel the connection to the war necessary for German-like levels of regret.
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Apr 24, 2013 02:25
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Lemmi Caution posted:The activities of the occupying forces post-war had differing and continuing effects to the present-day. Japan was never really "de-Nazified" because the US had different priorities for Japan, its government, and relations with its immediate neighbors. Germany went through de-nazification, but there was much resentment of that process and a lot of people felt that the Nazis weren't so bad, except for the war losing part. I'd say it was more after the Cold War that the attitude you see today was truly formed, though the groundwork for it was laid starting in the 60s and 70s. That said, I don't think the comparison of Japan to Germany is that productive. Nazi Germany had a literal plan to eliminate millions of people based on ethnicity and featured strong continuity of leadership. Japan had neither of those, which doesn't make the murders committed by Japanese soldiers any less bad, but which does make for harder history. There's no Hitler or Final Solution for people to learn about and reject, rather you have criminality on an incredible scale, which is harder to comprehend and deal with.
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Apr 24, 2013 02:48
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Bloodnose posted:I do think official visits to Yasukuni are lame, but it's a completely different scenario from a visit to Rudolf Hess. It's more like if Rudolf Hess was entombed in a church crypt that also housed lots of respected figures from German history, maybe like also Charlemagne and some saints or something, and they paid an official visit to that church. Also important to remember is that Yasukuni doesn't actually have remains on the premises; worshippers are paying homage to the single "glob" of 2.5 million souls of those that are 'enshrined' there. These are the souls of people who died for the Emperor between the beginning of the Meiji period and the end of WWII. Once a soul is added to the glob, the owners have said that it is impossible to remove it - so the war criminals apparently cannot possibly be extinguished. This differs from how Shinto shrines usually work. From here http://www.zcommunications.org/enshrinement-politics-war-dead-and-war-criminals-at-yasukuni-shrine-by-akiko-takenaka: quote:The shrine, too, has vehemently opposed the removal, explaining that, unlike an ordinary shrine, where each god has its own seat (za), Yasukuni gods all occupy a single seat. Therefore, it is impossible to separate one from another once enshrined. My suggestion for South Korea and China would be get a bunch of priests to perform their own rituals (in their respective countries) that they say extinguish the souls they find offensive from Yasukuni. Why not? It's all made up, anyway, and it would allow them to reclaim a sense of ownership while at the same time sticking it up the right-wingers. I guess it would almost certainly add fuel to the right-wingers' fires, though.
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Apr 24, 2013 02:55
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One thing that gets glossed over or simplified in the explanation of Yasukuni is that it also enshrines "volunteered" laborers who were killed, included Koreans. That may be more galling than the war criminals by themselves. Imagine a place that memorialized concentration camp victims alongside SS officers.
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Apr 24, 2013 03:04
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I think there is an important point prior to the mid-1960s, both Germans governments had done very little to address the crimes of the past. The East Germans at least acknowledge the crimes of Fascism, while West Germany as a whole under Adenaueur supposedly just swept the issue under the rug and moved on (look at the governments attitude towards the Eichmann trial). I think the big chance was the growth of radical leftism in Western Germany and mass student movements which directly confronted the issue to the point pretending everything was over just couldn't be sustained. Also foreign relations between Israel/Western Europe/United States began grow much closer which meant, that the issue of the Holocaust had to be dealt with openly at some point. That just didn't happen in Japan, it wasn't "de-nazified" to the same effect, there wasn't a mass push from students and the left to address the issue and there wasn't a political/diplomatic impetus to do it either. Also, the US itself was willing to let the it slide during the 1950s in both countries so we can't wipe our hands either, since "communism" was what we suppose to be worrying about.
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Apr 24, 2013 03:05
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Lemmi Caution posted:While Japan hopefully finds a way to come to terms with the past along with its neighbors, Well, going by time of disputes I think this will happen around the time we get peace in the middle east.
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Apr 24, 2013 03:07
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Lemmi Caution posted:One thing that gets glossed over or simplified in the explanation of Yasukuni is that it also enshrines "volunteered" laborers who were killed, included Koreans. That may be more galling than the war criminals by themselves. I think that's a lesser issue, but even so, it all comes back to enshrining literal war criminals who also didn't actually die during the war.
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Apr 24, 2013 03:12
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dilbertschalter posted:That said, I don't think the comparison of Japan to Germany is that productive. Nazi Germany had a literal plan to eliminate millions of people based on ethnicity and featured strong continuity of leadership. Japan had neither of those, which doesn't make the murders committed by Japanese soldiers any less bad, but which does make for harder history. There's no Hitler or Final Solution for people to learn about and reject, rather you have criminality on an incredible scale, which is harder to comprehend and deal with. You have no idea what you're talking about. Imperial Japan's intentions in East Asia pretty much exactly mirror the Nazi's intentions in Eastern Europe. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Alls_Policy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_Investigation_of_Global_Policy_with_the_Yamato_Race_as_Nucleus
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Apr 24, 2013 03:27
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dilbertschalter posted:I think that's a lesser issue, but even so, it all comes back to enshrining literal war criminals who also didn't actually die during the war. Don't forget it has also enshrined people who arn't dead yet as well (well who wern't dead when they were enshrined). And refused to remove them only added a tag to their tablet saying they were still alive http://www.japanprobe.com/2011/07/23/japanese-court-rejects-koreans-yasukuni-demands/.
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Apr 24, 2013 03:28
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Yeah, like I said, the people who run Yasukuni are scum, and they use the fact that they are constitutionally protected from legal interference as a religious institution to do all kinds of morally repugnant poo poo.
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Apr 24, 2013 03:32
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An amusing factoid about Yasukuni is that there isn't any English anywhere on the premise. During training I walked through part of the premise and it was something that I noticed. The name of the shrine is the only thing that has "English" and I still believe thats only romaji, I don't think it said "Yasukuni Shrine" I think it says "Yasukuni Jinja." Just an amusing bit.
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Apr 24, 2013 03:47
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NewtGoongrich posted:You have no idea what you're talking about. Imperial Japan's intentions in East Asia pretty much exactly mirror the Nazi's intentions in Eastern Europe. Hey guys, look at these Wikipedia articles I read that disprove something that wasn't actually said.  I was thinking of adding a footnote about the Three Alls in my original post, but figured that people would understand the difference. Brutal scorched earth policies and a "literal plan to eliminate millions of people based on ethnicity" are not, in fact, almost exactly the same thing. That's not to say, of course, that the results of it and the many, many other atrocities perpetrated during the Pacific weren't horrible and that racist ideology didn't play a role (it absolutely did), but such tactics aren't particularly uncommon in the history of warfare. The level of pre-meditation, the lack of any military excuse, and, above all, there being a literal plan to eliminate everyone who was a member of a certain ethnic group aren't really mirrored in Japanese policy. Instead, what you had was people operating under the assumption that the lives of non-Japanese were worthless. That assumption led to an incredible amount of murder, rape, and generally horrible things, but the comparison to Germany is inexact to say the least.
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Apr 24, 2013 03:49
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While we're on the topic of comparisons between Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan, here's a slight diversion that I've always found very interesting: the "Fugu plan". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_settlement_in_the_Japanese_Empire Essentially, after being duped by the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, some high-ups in the Japanese government and army decide to try to curry favour with the international Jewry by helping them resettle in Manchuria after fleeing Europe. The plan is shut down after the signing of the Tripartite Pact, though there is continued unofficial assistance for Jews - notably from Sugihara Chiune (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiune_Sugihara), a Japanese consular official in Lithuania who issued around transit visas for around 6,000 Polish and Lithuanian Jews, enabling them to escape. He's revered as a hero in Israel today.
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Apr 24, 2013 03:59
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Ardennes posted:I think the big chance was the growth of radical leftism in Western Germany and mass student movements which directly confronted the issue to the point pretending everything was over just couldn't be sustained. Also foreign relations between Israel/Western Europe/United States began grow much closer which meant, that the issue of the Holocaust had to be dealt with openly at some point. Thats a bit of a load of bullshit, Japan had a pretty drat large radical student movement back in the days and its relations with the Koreas were always much more important than Germany's with Israel due if nothing else to the realities of geography. Perhaps it would be easier to say that the difference is that while both countries had to deal with radical leftism the (not so radical) left won, so to speak, the mind of the average German while at the same time a more traditional yet still statist mindset saw victory in Japan's. Cliff Racer fucked around with this message at 04:23 on Apr 24, 2013 |
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Apr 24, 2013 04:21
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On that note, do the Japanese have that same oddball niche world of special interest stuff revering Jews for their mystical abilities with money that you can find in some quarters among the Chinese? My impression is that the vast majority of Asians I've met either don't really understand what constitutes being Jewish (frankly a lot of Americans I know don't understand the ethnic/religious distinction particularly), but that some have a really oddball fascination with Jewish folks - either via negative stereotypes (e.g. in Malaysia) or via positive stereotypes (e.g. in China).
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Apr 24, 2013 04:27
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A new Japanese student came to my class on the first day wearing a six pointed star necklace, and against my better judgement I asked if she was Jewish. Of course not. After that she didn't wear it anymore, I probably made her feel self-conscious about it for no good reason.
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Apr 24, 2013 04:30
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Samurai Sanders posted:A new Japanese student came to my class on the first day wearing a six pointed star necklace, and against my better judgement I asked if she was Jewish. Of course not. After that she didn't wear it anymore, I probably made her feel self-conscious about it for no good reason. You monster. How religious is the average Japanese person? Do they actually believe in the shrines holding the spirits of the dead or whatever or is it just a place for paying respect and so on?
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Apr 24, 2013 05:05
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80% of Japanese are Buddhist 80% are Shintoist 80% are not religious
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Apr 24, 2013 05:13
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Cliff Racer posted:Thats a bit of a load of bullshit, Japan had a pretty drat large radical student movement back in the days and its relations with the Koreas were always much more important than Germany's with Israel due if nothing else to the realities of geography. Perhaps it would be easier to say that the difference is that while both countries had to deal with radical leftism the (not so radical) left won, so to speak, the mind of the average German while at the same time a more traditional yet still statist mindset saw victory in Japan's. Eh the Japanese student was nearly as large and as radical not to mention as well connected with other European and International movements as the German movements were during the 1960s. That said, one party rule meant that an "Adnauner" like mentality continued in Japan through the LPD. The SPD in a way had to acknowledge some of that dissatisfaction (which admittedly was coming from more than just students), but the strength of West German left radicalism had to be a key competent the process forward (a component I just don't think existed in at the same strength in Japan.) In addition, I think the US had more of an vested interested in seeing West German reconciliation than South Korean-Japanese reconciliation even if both were beneficial in the frame of the Cold War. South Korea had more economic trade and contact with Japan, but the issue of Holocaust itself was a much bigger sticking point for some Americans. Also, the fact the USSR was sitting right there and had a competing version of Germany also complicated the issue (even through the GDR never really reconciled it itself). In addition, while South Korea and Japan had extensive trade ties there was continued bad blood after war that didn't exist between Germany and Israel in the same way. It is easier to reconcile past crimes with a country that is on another continent, then one you have active heated territorial disputes with. Not to say it is "right" but it is undeniably has to be part of the puzzle. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 05:24 on Apr 24, 2013 |
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Apr 24, 2013 05:21
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Kenishi posted:An amusing factoid about Yasukuni is that there isn't any English anywhere on the premise. During training I walked through part of the premise and it was something that I noticed. The name of the shrine is the only thing that has "English" and I still believe thats only romaji, I don't think it said "Yasukuni Shrine" I think it says "Yasukuni Jinja." You didn't go to the museum then. It is the most awesome take on WWII I've ever seen. All they displays have English.
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Apr 24, 2013 05:42
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Madd0g11 posted:You didn't go to the museum then. It is the most awesome take on WWII I've ever seen. All they displays have English. I haven't been IN the place, I just walked through the front and premise and noted the complete lack of signage. I imagine the take on it must be as good as the way North Korea talks about their prowess over the entire world.
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Apr 24, 2013 06:30
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Reminds me that I once overheard some Japanese tourists at Pearl Harbor complaining too many of the signs were only in English 
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Apr 24, 2013 08:45
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Epoxy Bulletin posted:Reminds me that I once overheard some Japanese tourists at Pearl Harbor complaining too many of the signs were only in English
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Apr 24, 2013 09:02
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Epoxy Bulletin posted:Reminds me that I once overheard some Japanese tourists at Pearl Harbor complaining too many of the signs were only in English The signs being in Japanese sounds like a really obvious idea actually.
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Apr 24, 2013 09:19
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Here's a remarkably straightforward (for the English-language press) summary of how things are going right now: http://world.time.com/2013/04/24/japan-war-shrine-reflects-ruling-party-nationalism/
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Apr 24, 2013 09:34
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Kenishi posted:I haven't been IN the place, I just walked through the front and premise and noted the complete lack of signage. It's really not that blatant. It's not especially good, but it's more that it doesn't dwell on the shittier things that they did than tries to glorify everything. Yeah it's not really great but what do you want? The US, for example, also doesn't to my knowledge have a bunch of poo poo about Mai Lai etc. festooned about the Vietnam war memorial. Maybe we should just let people mourn for the fair chunk of an entire generation of young men they lost to a war? And then hope that enough of them will have to the interest and inclination to learn about the bad things too.
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Apr 24, 2013 13:03
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It seems like a tendency for goons in Japan to pick up on the Japanese tendency to equivocate on the war but yeah, it's pretty lovely for Japan to try to paper over their "involvement" in stuff like the Nanking Massacre or the entire situation with comfort women.
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Apr 24, 2013 13:22
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Madd0g11 posted:You didn't go to the museum then. It is the most awesome take on WWII I've ever seen. All they displays have English. It is fantastic, the amount of nationalist whitewashing in there is incredible. Did you know the war started when the Chinese just up and attacked the Japanese soldiers in Beijing for no reason? Manchukuo also had nothing do with Japan at all. Fortunately, all of Asia thanked Japan after the war for showing them the way to freedom from western imperialism. I have some pictures of the most egregious signs if anyone's interested, but don't want to derail too far. This is the only museum I saw that was like that and it is run by right wing assholes so it's hardly representative.
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Apr 24, 2013 13:25
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I think what Japan ought to do is to establish a national, secular war memorial. If you're going to argue separation of church and state with respect to the actions of the Yasukuni shrine then it shouldn't be performing a state function. I mean, maybe one exists and everyone ignores it? But it's a bit ridiculous to leave the job of memorializing the war (totally legitimate on the face of it) to a group of facsist priests not employed by the government. I guess it provides the convenient excuse that they can't tell the priests what to do?
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Apr 24, 2013 13:34
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Gleri posted:I guess it provides the convenient excuse that they can't tell the priests what to do? My understanding s this is precisely why.
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Apr 24, 2013 14:09
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Abe posted:侵略という定義は学界的にも国際的にも定まっていない。
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Apr 24, 2013 14:57
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Oh hey guys, you don't have to argue about this because, see, there was no invasion of mainland Asia by the Japanese. So says Abe, PM of Japan! http://ajw.asahi.com/article/behind_news/politics/AJ201304240082 http://english.chosun.com/site/data/html_dir/2013/04/24/2013042401169.html (Stole this from Throatwarbler in the China thread) That said... dilbertschalter posted:Germany went through de-nazification Cliff Racer posted:still statist  I wish I still had my laughing Hassan Nasrallah avatar.
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Apr 24, 2013 15:18
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I don't think he actually intended to declare that there was no invasion, although it does sound like that. I think he was just trying to get away with sort of convincing right wingers that he was undermining the Murayama statement but without actually retracting it, by saying "what does 'aggression/invasion' even mean, anyway?" At any rate, this is so dumb that hopefully everyone will just interpret it as a retraction and he'll have to actually apologize and state a clear position.
mystes fucked around with this message at 15:28 on Apr 24, 2013 |
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Apr 24, 2013 15:24
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mystes posted:I don't think he actually intended to declare that there was no invasion, although it does sound like that. I think he was just trying to get away with sort of convincing right wingers that he was undermining the Murayama statement but without actually retracting it, by saying "what does 'aggression/invasion' even mean, anyway?" At any rate, this is so dumb that hopefully everyone will just interpret it as a retraction and he'll have to actually apologize and state a clear position. Does anyone have some good online reading on the Japanese ultra-right? Ya hear about the vans and read about the assassinations and poo poo back in the day but I haven't really found any good reads on what they like today.
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Apr 24, 2013 15:49
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mystes posted:I don't think he actually intended to declare that there was no invasion, although it does sound like that. I think he was just trying to get away with sort of convincing right wingers that he was undermining the Murayama statement but without actually retracting it, by saying "what does 'aggression/invasion' even mean, anyway?" At any rate, this is so dumb that hopefully everyone will just interpret it as a retraction and he'll have to actually apologize and state a clear position. I'd say the main talking point used by right-wingers on this issue is that Japan was forced into invading China by the egregious and unacceptable provocations of the Nationalist government (and the same argument is used for Pearl Harbor/the invasion of Southeast Asia). So while Japan might have invaded China, it was only doing so to protect its honor and stave off impending aggression.
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Apr 24, 2013 15:50
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Grand Fromage posted:I have some pictures of the most egregious signs if anyone's interested, but don't want to derail too far. This is the only museum I saw that was like that and it is run by right wing assholes so it's hardly representative. Well since nobody else has said so yet, I'd be interested in seeing your pictures! I think it's fairly pertinent to the current discussion too.
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Apr 24, 2013 16:06
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Deceitful Penguin posted:
Denazification in East Germany was more about nationalizing factories (because they were used in the war effort, you see) than it was about finding Nazis. Those had all fled to the west, as far as the East German government was concerned, and in any event were only a small minority who misled the majority of the German people. The never really worked through Germany's past, which is precisely why the east has become such a stronghold for neonazi movements. That said, I'd love to see pictures from Yasukuni shrine, if only for the rise in blood pressure.
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Apr 24, 2013 17:21
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