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Deceitful Penguin posted:Well, they've had our most famous singer over and she mighta left a bit of an impression. But yeah, I wasn't expecting that much. We're pretty small after all. When I was younger I liked making people guess where I was from and they never got it right. Then I made them guess how many we were and they never got that right either. Good times. I'm sorry, Iceland. AFP posted:French President Francois Hollande, accompanied by a high-powered business delegation, starts a two-day visit to China on Thursday, with trade rather than geopolitics at the top of the agenda.   "FMPRC posted:On April 16, 2013, Chinese President Xi Jinping met with visiting Icelandic Prime Minister Johanna Sigurdardottir at the Great Hall of the People. In SCMP and earthquake news:   The motion has failed to go to a vote in the LegCo so far.
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Apr 24, 2013 10:16
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I don't understand what's happening. What is she supposed to be called? The Economist calls her the same thing so you guys must be pretty outraged at the English speaking world throughout your day.
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Apr 24, 2013 10:41
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Throatwarbler posted:I don't understand what's happening. What is she supposed to be called? The Economist calls her the same thing so you guys must be pretty outraged at the English speaking world throughout your day. Yeah, she even did an interview with Democracy Now where the issue of her name was talked about on the air, and she never objected to that being used in place of a family name.
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Apr 24, 2013 12:04
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http://ajw.asahi.com/article/behind_news/politics/AJ201304240082 http://english.chosun.com/site/data/html_dir/2013/04/24/2013042401169.html SO the Japanese prime minister just said that Japan didn't really "invade" anyone during WW2, because you have to look at it from all kinds of different perspectives man.
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Apr 24, 2013 12:33
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Yeah, this is the sort of thing that shows why people in Korea and China think that Japan's apologies re: WWII lack sincerity.
Fangz fucked around with this message at 14:03 on Apr 24, 2013 |
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Apr 24, 2013 12:47
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As much as I hate historical revisionism and the absence of critical inquiry from history textbooks in both China and Japan I am prepared to allow the Japanese Prime Minister to say what he likes on the condition that I can refer to Hong Kong as "our deep water port East of Suez".
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Apr 24, 2013 13:40
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Word of advice, Abe: If you gotta pander to ultranationalists in order to get back ahead in the polls, you're doing such a lovely job of running the country that you might as well suck off the Yakuza for all the good it does you.
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Apr 24, 2013 14:05
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Japanese prime ministers just need to pass laws against earthquakes. That would be popular. Anyone who objects would be pro-earthquake.
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Apr 24, 2013 14:07
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Arglebargle III posted:Anyone who objects would be pro-earthquake. Given how spiteful Asian politics can be, I could see that there might be pro-earthquake vote in Japan right now.
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Apr 24, 2013 14:27
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Bloodnose posted:I'm sorry, Iceland.  Throatwarbler posted:I don't understand what's happening. What is she supposed to be called? The Economist calls her the same thing so you guys must be pretty outraged at the English speaking world throughout your day. ErIog posted:Yeah, she even did an interview with Democracy Now where the issue of her name was talked about on the air, and she never objected to that being used in place of a family name. Throatwarbler posted:http://ajw.asahi.com/article/behind_news/politics/AJ201304240082 VVV Wrong, it's actually "Elvis" ('cause he looks a bit like Elvis) Also they used that name in Skyrim (It's Tiber Septims original name) and they get it wrong there.) Deceitful Penguin fucked around with this message at 15:08 on Apr 24, 2013 |
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Apr 24, 2013 14:42
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Deceitful Penguin posted:(Hjalti. Go ahead and guess how it's pronounced) Okay I'll give it a try. How about "Bob"
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Apr 24, 2013 15:00
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Enjoy this picture guys! Anti mainland sentiment is growing Bloodnose will probably link the article tomorrow, but even our incorruptible ICAC (independent commission against corruption), the shining beacon of light has been tarnished  Geeze China, just bring in the tanks, bring in the shock and awe and get over with it.
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Apr 24, 2013 16:33
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Actually the patronymic thing was just a sidenote. I actually brought up Iceland because of the AFP saying the French president will be the first western leader to meet Xi Jinping as Chairman, when the Icelandic PM has just finished her meeting with him, proving how insignificant and forgettable poor little Iceland is.
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Apr 24, 2013 16:46
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This was a picture on Xinhua What kind of douche still wears watches nowadays anyway? I haven't had a watch since I was 12 years old. Why not throw on a nose ring or a face tattoo while you're at it?
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Apr 24, 2013 16:46
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I dunno is there anything factually wrong with it? Other than "expensive estates" being incredibly depressing suburban housing for non hongers.
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Apr 24, 2013 16:47
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Plenty of older people wear watches.Arglebargle III posted:I dunno is there anything factually wrong with it? Other than "expensive estates" being incredibly depressing suburban housing for non hongers. It's a prediction about the future, how can it possibly be factually rebutted, when the donation isn't going to happen? Overall, it's a pretty nasty slur though. Fangz fucked around with this message at 16:59 on Apr 24, 2013 |
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Apr 24, 2013 16:55
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Bloodnose posted:Actually the patronymic thing was just a sidenote. I actually brought up Iceland because of the AFP saying the French president will be the first western leader to meet Xi Jinping as Chairman, when the Icelandic PM has just finished her meeting with him, proving how insignificant and forgettable poor little Iceland is.  Thems the breaks. Only outlet that consistently impresses me is AJ, so AP being rubbish ain't a shock. caberham posted:Bloodnose will probably link the article tomorrow, but even our incorruptible ICAC (independent commission against corruption), the shining beacon of light has been tarnished
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Apr 24, 2013 16:57
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Deceitful Penguin This is really out of the scope of the thread, but I'm still not clear on Icelandic naming conventions after reading Wikipedia. The proper way to refer to the PM of Iceland is just "Jóhanna" with no title? Are there many unique given names in Iceland? It seems like it could get very confusing using only first names. I've seen Chinese newspapers call Secretary of State Clinton as "希拉里" (Hillary) many times. I do find it pretty offensive but it occurred to me that calling her just Clinton would confuse Chinese people more and there's a limit to how much the average newspaper reader is going to learn just to read an article...
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Apr 24, 2013 17:08
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To expand, in any charitable enterprise, there's going to be some proportion that is misspent. The question is whether the proportion here will be especially large, and large enough to make the whole enterprise pointless, and I don't think that's automatically clear. Bringing up literally everything bad the CCP does in the event of an aid appeal is really rather dirty dealing though. Did people go around claiming that aid given to Japan during the Tsunami disaster would go towards maintaining Yasukuni Shrine? If people are really concerned about corruption, then agitate for conditions and monitoring be placed on how this aid would be spent, or a change to the type of aid that is sent. This all just seems like a really tasteless way of playing politics in the midst of people's suffering. (Disclosure: I have relatives in the Sichuan area, so I have an especially dim view of all this...)
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Apr 24, 2013 17:16
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hitension posted:Deceitful Penguin This is really out of the scope of the thread, but I'm still not clear on Icelandic naming conventions after reading Wikipedia. The proper way to refer to the PM of Iceland is just "Jóhanna" with no title? Are there many unique given names in Iceland? It seems like it could get very confusing using only first names. The way I understand it, Iceland is primarily a given-name country. The phone book is sorted by first name, with patronymic and occupation to differentiate. It would in fact be Jóhanna, or Prime Minister Jóhanna. Calling her Ms. Sigurdardóttir would be wrong-- both because the first "d" should be a character I think is called a thorn? and because that's like calling the leader of North Korea Mr. Jong-Un. EDIT: Whoops, that's an eth, not a thorn.
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Apr 24, 2013 17:32
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Fangz posted:If people are really concerned about corruption, then agitate for conditions and monitoring be placed on how this aid would be spent...  Do you live in China? This is exactly the problem, nobody believes that aid would get to Sichuan at all and conditions and monitoring is just... it makes me question whether you live here. Conditions and monitoring would be immediately dismissed as meaningless because there is no transparency in the system. It doesn't matter how much you swear you're monitoring the situation if nobody can verify the monitoring.
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Apr 24, 2013 17:45
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Arglebargle III posted:
No I don't live in China, I don't know what gave you that impression. I'm saying if they are concerned about misuse of funds, then send people from Hong Kong to Sichuan to physically oversee the situation. If the CCP says no to this, then okay, then don't send aid.
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Apr 24, 2013 18:00
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Fangz posted:I'm saying if they are concerned about misuse of funds, then send people from Hong Kong to Sichuan to physically oversee the situation. If the CCP says no to this, then okay, then don't send aid. Fuckin' lmao, do you really think the CCP would allow independent monitors in for something like this?! That's why everyone is so skeptical and that's why a huge collage of every lovely thing the CCP does is so convincing for people, because their standard approach to oversight is to tell you to gently caress off and label you part of the anti-China conspiracy. No government is particularly happy to let people see how sausage gets made, but the CCP has set up one of the nastiest slaughterhouses on earth and they know it. That's why you can't monitor how funds move, that's why news orgs get blocked for reporting on leaders finances, that's why they're super mad about independent air pollution monitoring, that's why leaders are slipping their watches off before walking in front of the cameras, that's why foreign news reporters are chased out of Tibet as fast as possible, and that's why they've created a censorship apparatus that is one of the most impressively horrible on earth.
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Apr 24, 2013 18:24
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Electro-Boogie Jack posted:Fuckin' lmao, do you really think the CCP would allow independent monitors in for something like this?! That's why everyone is so skeptical and that's why a huge collage of every lovely thing the CCP does is so convincing for people, because their standard approach to oversight is to tell you to gently caress off and label you part of the anti-China conspiracy. Yes, I do really think the CCP can allow independent monitors in for something like this. - Sichuan disaster relief is not repression of separatists in Tibet. It's not something the CCP considers to *inevitably* look bad for them, and therefore to want as few people to look at as possible. - Local Sichuan party officials are not core CCP staff. They are far more disposable and their individual welfare is outside of the interest of the top leaders. No one wants them to have watches. - Fear of corruption in Sichuan is not Beijing environmental regulation. There's both a physical and metaphorical distance. It's not the impact of longstanding policy from the people in power being felt in the present, policy that It Has Been Decided that China will not turn away from, whatever the consequences. It's about a thing that is still developing and is not part of any central plan, that even if it were seen to fail could present an opportunity for someone to turn it around and show off how awesome the CCP is. - Hong Kong is not America. CCP one-china propaganda helps out here - it is more difficult for the authorities to deny the Hong Kong people, because they *are chinese*, and difficult to label as part of the Anti-China conspiracy, without acknowledging that opposition exists to the CCP within China. Which is the one thing the CCP fears the most. All of these things people have mentioned have separate reasons. You can't throw up a giant collage, and say, THEREFORE THE CCP IS EVIL and EVERYTHING IT DOES IS EVIL. Appreciate the internal flows and pressures of the party, here. The core issue is corruption, right? What's the prevailing narrative that the CCP wants to promote with the new change of leadership? That the corruption is about rare bad apples distant from the sight of the party? Ergo, the interest of the CCP is in proving that with the new regime they are serious about tackling the corruption issue, and they want this to be both visible and credible. Hence an opportunity exists. You cannot simplify the situation to 'the CCP is reaally mean!' Fangz fucked around with this message at 19:03 on Apr 24, 2013 |
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Apr 24, 2013 18:59
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To be fair on the whole watch thing, you can get some really convincing fakes for $150 or so. (Sadly, I'm sure these guys have real ones.)
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Apr 24, 2013 19:04
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Fangz posted:Yes, I do really think the CCP can allow independent monitors in for something like this. Ok, we'll I guess we'll see whether or not they do... Fangz posted:- Sichuan disaster relief is not repression of separatists in Tibet. It's not something the CCP considers to *inevitably* look bad for them, and therefore to want as few people to look at as possible. True, these are two different things! But what I was getting at is that the CCP has about the same amount of interest in scrutiny being brought to their finances as they do with their handling of ethnic minorities. They may not think it will inevitably look bad for them- but they sure as poo poo know that it almost always will, and that allowing sunlight in sets a very bad precedent. Fangz posted:- Local Sichuan party officials are not core CCP staff. They are far more disposable and their individual welfare is outside of the interest of the top leaders. No one wants them to have watches. Uh, true? But I'm starting to think you don't see what I'm getting at at all. If you're a Hong Konger and you're thinking about donating money, you want some assurance that it will go towards something worthwhile and that there will be some measure of transparency in what happens to it. But the CCP, from the top down to the bottom, does not allow this transparency and can give no meaningful guarantee about what will happen to your money, whether we're talking about Xi Jinping or some rear end in a top hat local secretary in Sichuan. Fangz posted:- Fear of corruption in Sichuan is not Beijing environmental regulation. There's both a physical and metaphorical distance. It's not the impact of longstanding policy from the people in power being felt in the present, policy that It Has Been Decided that China will not turn away from, whatever the consequences. It's about a thing that is still developing and is not part of any central plan, that even if it were seen to fail could present an opportunity for someone to turn it around and show off how awesome the CCP is. Again, the same cover of darkness is applied to both issues, using the same mechanisms, and for the same reasons. Fangz posted:- Hong Kong is not America. CCP one-china propaganda helps out here - it is more difficult for the authorities to deny the Hong Kong people, because they *are chinese*, and difficult to label as part of the Anti-China conspiracy, without acknowledging that opposition exists to the CCP within China. Which is the one thing the CCP fears the most. Hong Kong may not be America, but it can be a land of "ungrateful dogs" if it doesn't get down on its knees and make sweet love to the Party. If you don't think that it's possible for people in HK/TW to get labeled anti-China tools despite being parts of the Sinosphere, I don't know what to tell you. Fangz posted:All of these things people have mentioned have separate reasons. You can't throw up a giant collage, and say, THEREFORE THE CCP IS EVIL and EVERYTHING IT DOES IS EVIL. Appreciate the internal flows and pressures of the party, here. The core issue is corruption, right? What's the prevailing narrative that the CCP wants to promote with the new change of leadership? That the corruption is about rare bad apples distant from the sight of the party? Ergo, the interest of the CCP is in proving that with the new regime they are serious about tackling the corruption issue, and they want this to be both visible and credible. Hence an opportunity exists. They have separate reasons, but a lot of the same factors flow through all of them. The anti-corruption drive is about tackling the appearance of corruption, not corruption itself since that's the bread and butter of the Party. And while sure, there might be an opportunity, I haven't seen any sign of such openness appearing on this issue, and neither have the people of HK apparently, which is why we're talking about this in first place. It'd be cool if they would be transparent here, but that doesn't mean we should pretend it's already happened, or that it's even likely to happen at all. Fangz posted:You cannot simplify the situation to 'the CCP is reaally mean!' I think you can simplify it to 'the CCP has a constant and deep-rooted problem with corruption and transparency, which permeates all levels of government and many major non-government institutions inside China,' though. Is some of that stuff marginally related? Sure, but what argument do we have for the safety of these donations other than that "I don't know, maybe this time things will be much better"?
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Apr 24, 2013 19:35
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Does "the 50 cent party" refer to paid commenters on blogs and stuff, and the amount they get per comment or whatever?
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Apr 24, 2013 19:37
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Fandyien posted:Does "the 50 cent party" refer to paid commenters on blogs and stuff, and the amount they get per comment or whatever? That's the origin of the term, you probably shouldn't take it literally though. Some people are paid to help 'guide public opinion,' but the numbers and amount of pay are hard to gauge overall.
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Apr 24, 2013 19:39
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Throatwarbler posted:This was a picture on Xinhua Well, the guy in the white shirt took his off judging by the tan line on his wrist. Probably a really expensive one. Edit  That's what you lads were talking about. Damnit.
WarpedNaba fucked around with this message at 23:41 on Apr 24, 2013 |
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Apr 24, 2013 23:39
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Throatwarbler posted:This was a picture on Xinhua Not for nothing, but its still generally a sign of class. In fact the watch industry, cheap and expensive has been pretty exciting over the last several years. Pulling out a phone to check the time in a social situation is poor form (don't get me started) and generally makes one look like a provincial. --- Just want to thank everybody in this thread, its a fascinating read. Most of the Chinese Americans I know are pretty much all from Flushing and all raised and educated here (and all seemed to go to Bronx Sci, but that's another story..) so getting perspective from the actual country is interesting. I'm kind of fascinated with the whole Cantonese/Mandarin dichotomy. From the way you all have seemingly explained it..Cantonese seems like its a language that has really loose rules. How does one even approach learning something like that? One of my best friends speaks Mandarin fluently has to pause for a second from time to time when we're out in Flushing getting food to figure out what some of the vendors actually said. I razzed him a bit about it but he couldn't even explain to me how different the two can be.
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Apr 25, 2013 00:23
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TyroneGoldstein posted:I'm kind of fascinated with the whole Cantonese/Mandarin dichotomy. From the way you all have seemingly explained it..Cantonese seems like its a language that has really loose rules. Standard Cantonese, like Standard Mandarin and all languages in the world, has very specific rules that are easily taught and learned. However, Cantonese, like Mandarin, has a very large dialect continuum. If you were going to learn Cantonese, you'd just study the standardized dialect used in Hong Kong and Guangzhou, like a Mandarin learner would probably study Beijing or Northeastern standard Mandarin. Now when you start talking about, for example, Hokkien, which does not have official language status in any jurisdiction, it gets more complicated. Should you learn Taiwanese Hokkien? Fuzhouese? Singaporean Hokkien? There's not a clear standard and no governing body. There isn't even a standard written version, while in Cantonese and Mandarin there are. Fangz posted:I'm saying if they are concerned about misuse of funds, then send people from Hong Kong to Sichuan to physically oversee the situation. If the CCP says no to this, then okay, then don't send aid. Even if they did let this happen (they wouldn't), the CCP would choose some nationalist Hong Kongers who are probably a little corrupt themselves, which they really like to do for the Guangdong CPPCC. Earlier in the thread I shared this: SCMP posted:Hong Kong members of Guangdong's provincial advisory body were slammed as ignorant and unfit for their jobs yesterday after they were seen on television saying Hongkongers were ungrateful to the Communist Party and jealous of wealthy mainlanders. The communists know how to pick people out of Hong Kong who can be just as bad as them.
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Apr 25, 2013 00:53
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Fangz posted:Yes, I do really think the CCP can allow independent monitors in for something like this. You're right there's an opportunity here, but you don't understand the reflexive secrecy of the party. They would never ever go for something like this. Independent monitoring is antithetical to the culture of the CCP. First, independent monitoring would mean they would have to recognize the legitimacy of an organization that is not firmly under party control. They don't do that, as a matter of policy. Second, monitoring in general is something they don't like. They've come up in an environment where the correct response to a question from a random citizen is "none of your drat business, go away or there'll be trouble for you" and that's just the culture. Third, corruption really is the bread and butter of the party and is deeply entrenched. A move like independent monitors or even independent auditing, even for disaster relief, would be an unprecedented broadside from the Xi administration at very important constituencies. I am not exaggerating when I say it could destabilize the government. Battle lines would be drawn inside the CCP over the sort of move you're proposing. Maybe if the administration swears up and down that it's only for disaster relief they could avoid a fight. It's important to remember the Party is not united by any means, and despite the lack of democracy leaders have to appease important constituencies. In the Chinese system those constituencies are patronage networks either built or inherited by high-level party leaders, composed of groups of influential people and those who have helped them or been helped over the years. They're not democratic but they are a force to be reckoned with. The fall of Bo Xilai for example was also a blow to dozens of political careers in Bo's patronage. The China History Podcast actually had a really interesting tangent in the Cultural Revolution series about how the Xi and Bo family networks became enemies decades ago, and now (coincidentally?) Xi Jinping is the Premier and Bo Xilai is in an undisclosed location. I actually asked whether you live in China because I thought you must not from the way you're talking. On the one hand I would love it if you were right, seriously. The CCP has gobs of opportunities for reform that they have let slip by and here's another one. Nobody in China believes they will though. To the average educated urban Chinese, that image is a pretty good explanation of why not to donate to disaster relief. It's all connected in the public imagination here. Nobody believes anything the government says; nobody believes donations to the government would reach disaster victims.  I really wish I was more optimistic about the government.
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Apr 25, 2013 02:48
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BBC posted:In 2009, researchers at Tsinghua University revealed that 80% of charitable donations after 2008's Sichuan earthquake were funnelled into Chinese government coffers as "extra revenue". I was surprised to read this - not because of the factual conctent but because of the existence of a report into this issue published by an authoritative body. I cannot find the full text of this report though because I am linguistically imparied.
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Apr 25, 2013 03:01
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caberham posted:Bloodnose will probably link the article tomorrow, but even our incorruptible ICAC (independent commission against corruption), the shining beacon of light has been tarnished The more I read about Timothy Tong, the former commissioner of the ICAC, the more pissed off I get. It's really a shining beacon of light in east Asian politics, but he really pulled some hosed up poo poo: SCMP posted:Lawmakers proposed that the legislature investigate the former commissioner of the Independent Commission Against Corruption, Timothy Tong Hin-ming, over his costly presents and receptions. But there is hope that his successor, Simon Peh, will be less of an rear end in a top hat: SCMP posted:The city's top graft-buster said he would in future only host meals in the ICAC's canteen at around HK$200 a head This is from the comments at the bottom of the article, so it's probably bullshit, but gives an idea of the image Tong has now: women in love! posted:yeah,fully agree with lawmaker Cyd Ho Sau-lan that the Legco members should use the Powers and Priveleges Ordinances to summon this former head of our ICAC,corrupted Timothy Tong Hin-ming to the Legco to explain his over-spending on meals and gifts offered to visiting Mainland officials by using public coffers ! Besides,it is revealed that Timothy Tong used to go to his office not earlier than 11 o'clock every morning and his subordinates had to make use of the time period:11:00 a.m.to 1 p.m.to discuss with him any important business as he was not available after 1 p.m. since he had to take a long nap after lunch (with his favourite Moi Toi of course) and then left his office for luxurious dinners ! What an eviable job indeed for our head of ICAC in his 5-year tenure by working just 2 hours every day !!
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Apr 25, 2013 04:03
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My sympathies for the victims. Man all this time I was trying to type out some reply, in comes Argle Bargle  Fangz posted:Yes, I do really think the CCP can allow independent monitors in for something like this. Electro-Boogie Jack basically covered the points. But China cares more about its position in the game of international politics instead of earthquake victims. China snubbed Japanese aid but will accept Russian aid. So much for caring about the victims Remember, there will be NGO's and the amount of money leaking away will not be as blatant as some government authority.I really think it's a sad time that Hongers are going all RON PAUL but giving money to the government authorities is just a bad decision. Lots of Pan democrats or other law makers rather give it to some NGO like Oxfam to handle the funds. Within the last 50 years, Hongers were always generous in donating money to China. The Yangtze river floods, sponsoring schools and education etc. Heck, not just Hong Kong but lots of NGO's from around the world do try to set up help in China but the biggest obstacle is going through "proper official" sanctions. NGO's try to do good work but are perceived as foreign spies and suspicion. Also, they also undermine government authority and the image of effectiveness when they better utilize their resources. It really is a crap shoot and depends on how much of a douche the local official is. This is where Chinese creativity kicks in. For instance, a school can only be built if a certain grade of concrete is used. Coincidentally the concrete company is affiliated with the buildings inspector Think Argle was talking about parallel power structures and this is where we can see the failures and inconsistencies of the government. Or an outright bribe. Or an educator fee. Or some other project in conjunction. You really don't know or can't tell unless you negotiate with the local dudes in person. They know they are corrupt and people hate them but they are the gate keepers and the ones with the keys so it's a game of face/bargaining/negotiation/another layer of complexity. Beijing may try to be clean but many things are done at a local level. And we all know local level public officials are paid peanuts, so they supplement their income through corruption.quote:- Local Sichuan party officials are not core CCP staff. They are far more disposable and their individual welfare is outside of the interest of the top leaders. Not just any swatch/casio, but fancy Swiss watches like IWC/Rolex/Philippe Patek. They can go from USD 15k ~~ 130K per watch  Yes officials are easily replaceable, but the problem is no matter how many you replace, there is the inherent culture of corruption. You still need ground crew and local administrators. One guy might be the sacrificial lamb after some debacle but others will just fill in the gap. Some laws and regulations might be enacted. But new guys will just get sucked in to the old system. The old system filled with bureaucracy and laws are subjectively enforced. Can someone highlight more information on the aftermath of 2008 school situation? Lots of questions were asked and fingers pointed but nothing got done about school construction (I hope I'm wrong) Didn't the earth quake bring attention to Charter 08 and the peace prize guy? quote:- Hong Kong is not America. CCP one-china propaganda helps out here - it is more difficult for the authorities to deny the Hong Kong people, because they *are chinese*, and difficult to label as part of the Anti-China conspiracy, without acknowledging that opposition exists to the CCP within China. Which is the one thing the CCP fears the most. Hong Kong needs no more stinking propaganda. Hongers still identify themselves as Chinese (I wonder how long that will last). Over USD 150 million dollars has been donated but not much progress have been seen 2008.Lots of Hongers want to see China be a stronger country and have the world recognize Chinese culture and all but poo poo China has done is very very off putting. Yes you can argue the cultural revolution happened many years ago, the tank thing is a one time incident. Imprisoning dissenters and all can be glossed over. Politics is a major turn off for a lot people and can be neglected. The system fucks over the regular folk far enough and when you don't have the decency to at least resume everything to normalcy and want to skim some more, humanitarian aid money which is sacred it is very very off putting. Then there's fake food and crumbling schools which amplifies the negative sentiment even more. The tragedies are really off putting and it's fair if lots Hongers just don't want to contribute to it. quote:All of these things people have mentioned have separate reasons. You can't throw up a giant collage, and say, THEREFORE THE CCP IS EVIL and EVERYTHING IT DOES IS EVIL. Just give your money to Oxfam or other NGOs. The CCP will find a way to skim that but at least the siphoning is reduced. quote:You cannot simplify the situation to 'the CCP is reaally mean!' You can simplify the situation to "China is a loving meat grinder where rural people's lives are not as important than some rocks". I apologize if I do get too cynical. My company just paid another bribe to some customs guy again
caberham fucked around with this message at 04:15 on Apr 25, 2013 |
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Apr 25, 2013 04:10
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How stringent are the ICAC? You can't even treat someone dinner if they work in ICAC. They have to pay their share and want receipts for everything. The hiring process is really hard and everyone always go through some ethics audit from time to time. They are also better paid than police officers, and can carry glocks instead of a 6 shooter revolver If you are a cop, good luck making friends with an ICAC officer! ICAC investigates everyone and the easiest ones to investigate are people on public pay because everyone likes people on tax payer's money fall.Bloodnose posted:The more I read about Timothy Tong, the former commissioner of the ICAC, the more pissed off I get. It's really a shining beacon of light in east Asian politics, but he really pulled some hosed up poo poo: Disclosure: I worship the ICAC and the Governor Murray Maclehose for starting it. Uttering the great Governor's name brings a tear to my eye  The ICAC with a strong rule of law is the major reason why people of different backgrounds loved being 2nd class British colonial subjects. It guaranteed trust in the government's capability and people focused on "honest hard work" (For Mr. Li, but it's still honest), instead of bribing your way through. The cards are stacked against the common man in Hong Kong, but at the very least the ICAC keeps the playing field transparent.People do not like to be put in the dark And China just has to mess this up too  Basic Law reinterpretations made by your Basic Law committee? Fine. Political appointments to change the legislature and guide your policies? Ok you guys run the show. But corruption for well paid AND connected public officials? That's just pathetic man. You can be a company director and collect director fees, you can be a consultant, you can be a Chinese appointed Standing People's Committee member, gently caress there are so many legal ways to get rich, and you just have to gently caress it up. Get mao tai liver cancer, you loving rear end in a top hat. Thanks for ruining my little hope in this city and in the future of China. You can't just do what other property developers and other rich assholes do in this city : legal but ethically shady transactions. There's enough fat and excess oozing off the weak legislature for you to skim and you can't even do this right 
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Apr 25, 2013 04:56
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caberham posted:Think Argle was talking about parallel power structures and this is where we can see the failures and inconsistencies of the government. Or an outright bribe. Or an educator fee. Or some other project in conjunction. You really don't know or can't tell unless you negotiate with the local dudes in person. They know they are corrupt and people hate them but they are the gate keepers and the ones with the keys so it's a game of face/bargaining/negotiation/another layer of complexity. Beijing may try to be clean but many things are done at a local level. And we all know local level public officials are paid peanuts, so they supplement their income through corruption. Yeah that was quite a while ago but it's relevant here, nice callback. Paying your local officials peanuts is retarded because it is almost guaranteed to foster some sort of alternative to lawful conduct. If everyone participates in it then it's likely to turn into a system, and then that system will have leaders and its own politics and you have a parallel power structure. I'm not going to type out another long post about how such things undermine the state and the rule of law, but they do. In countries where the government is impoverished by systematic looting like some mineral-rich African countries it's understandable (although still really bad) to pay your officials nothing. In China it's just a terrible decision. China can afford to pay its officials a decent salary and that alone would go a long way to curbing the culture of corruption. I'm honestly not sure why salaries are still so low, you would think the government would be aware of this. Beijing trying to be clean was a very 00s thing to think. In the twenty teens there's been good journalism done that suggests Beijing isn't actually clean at all, they just succeeded in projecting that image longer than other parts of government.
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Apr 25, 2013 04:57
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Arglebargle III posted:In countries where the government is impoverished by systematic looting like some mineral-rich African countries it's understandable (although still really bad) to pay your officials nothing. In China it's just a terrible decision. China can afford to pay its officials a decent salary and that alone would go a long way to curbing the culture of corruption. I'm honestly not sure why salaries are still so low, you would think the government would be aware of this. At this point it's politically impossible to suddenly jolt government salaries up to market levels. The people already know about official excess, so there'd be riots in the streets when the people say: "What? They're super corrupt and all drive black BMW Lamborghini Ferraris and you're paying them US$300,000 a year? String them up!" You can't just suddenly fix the system by saying "Okay okay guys it's time to curb the excess, but here's a reasonable, upper-class income. Stop taking bribes. For realsies though this time. Not 'stop taking bribes *wink wink*'". Like caberham just said, that's what makes this ICAC corruption so despicable. Top government officials in Hong Kong get paid like half a million USD a year, then have perks like personal drivers and official residences on top of that. The idea that they then abuse their power means they should probably have their fingers sliced off with an apple peeler and then be forced to eat the skin shavings.
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Apr 25, 2013 05:27
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Bloodnose posted:At this point it's politically impossible to suddenly jolt government salaries up to market levels. The people already know about official excess, so there'd be riots in the streets when the people say: "What? They're super corrupt and all drive black BMW Lamborghini Ferraris and you're paying them US$300,000 a year? String them up!" You can't just suddenly fix the system You have to start somewhere though. If you don't raise salaries you won't get anywhere. You have to eliminate the strongest incentives before you can change people's behavior, you can't do it the other way around. Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 05:38 on Apr 25, 2013 |
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Apr 25, 2013 05:35
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Arglebargle III posted:You have to eliminate the strongest incentives before you can change people's behavior, you can't do it the other way around. People will have their cake and eat it though. If you are bent enough to fiddle the system for a few hundred thousand extra a year then you probably aren't going to feel any less inclined to do so when you are being paid a decent wage as well. This is why any increase in salaries deisgned to stamp out corruption would need to be combined with an effective legal clampdown on corrupt behaviour and it is that which stops reform. Everyone has their finger in the pie at the moment, so everyone is guilty.
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Apr 25, 2013 06:13
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