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McNerd posted:I've been meaning to ask, is Mat's name a reference to anything? He's called Mat because women walk all over him. 
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Apr 24, 2013 12:48
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Augster posted:Could be, but on the other hand Moiraine is at least named after the Moirai. Moiraine is named for Morgaine le Fay, the sorceress who in early versions of the Arthurian myth was the leader of the healers who preserved Arthur after he fell at Camlann.
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Apr 24, 2013 13:13
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There's also the whole conflict between the legendary nations of Mosk and Merk, aka the Cold War, that get mentioned somewhere in there.
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Apr 24, 2013 17:12
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Illuyankas posted:There's also the whole conflict between the legendary nations of Mosk and Merk, aka the Cold War, that get mentioned somewhere in there. IIRC "Mosk and Merk" are remembered as giants who dueled with lances of fire. But yeah, that was pretty cute.
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Apr 24, 2013 18:03
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Illuyankas posted:There's also the whole conflict between the legendary nations of Mosk and Merk, aka the Cold War, that get mentioned somewhere in there. Also Lenn flying to the moon in the belly of an eagle.
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Apr 25, 2013 01:26
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Augster posted:Lan is Lancelot. In Arthurian legend, Lancelot is the Lord of the Lake. Lan is the Lord of the (Thousand) Lakes. Atlas Hugged posted:I wonder if that influenced Jordan's decision to have Nynaeve break her wall while underwater? Good god.
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Apr 25, 2013 05:47
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Umbra Dubium posted:He's called Mat because women walk all over him. Only one ever did and when I was a teenager I thought it was pretty hot to have an older woman chasing after you like she did and now I'm older I realise holy gently caress if the sexes were reversed a man literally tied a woman up, raped her, and then afterwards said 'oh, come on, you enjoyed that as much as I did' Apparently being a teenager makes you ignore a lot of things.
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Apr 25, 2013 07:15
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Two Finger posted:Only one ever did and when I was a teenager I thought it was pretty hot to have an older woman chasing after you like she did and now I'm older I realise holy gently caress if the sexes were reversed a man literally tied a woman up, raped her, and then afterwards said 'oh, come on, you enjoyed that as much as I did' Let's also Ladies and gentlemen, the guy who got us to read ten thousand pages of his opinions on gender relations.
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Apr 25, 2013 13:14
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McNerd posted:Let's also Well I'm sure we can all admit the guy had a bit of a spanking fetish. I never minded it.
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Apr 25, 2013 13:26
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The Lord Bude posted:Well I'm sure we can all admit the guy had a bit of a spanking fetish. I never minded it. The spanking fetish gets annoying but this goes well beyond that into normalizing domestic abuse. Maybe you could write it off as a meaningless pornographic interlude like all the other spankings if not for the facts that the whole series is about gender roles, and that Perrin in particular figuring out how to get along with a girlfriend/wife is a major subplot. And that whenever he's mulling over how to handle his problems, he repeatedly thinks back to that time he lost his temper with Faile: it forms a small but significant part of their story. But it's a little absurd too that Jordan got credit for breaking new ground with a series full of rich female characters and then began to objectify every single one at every possible opportunity. McNerd fucked around with this message at 13:49 on Apr 25, 2013 |
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Apr 25, 2013 13:46
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It may be just me, but Jordan's female characters make me suspect the woman he was married to was not representative of what women in general are like. You can look at it from another angle, though, and once again appreciate that he created in-universe justification for it: a world in which all the wizards are (a) female and (b) sneaky manipulative control freaks would likely be a world comprised mostly of matriarchal societies (occasionally explicitly, mostly implicitly.)
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Apr 25, 2013 14:15
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I'm mostly irritated at the general overarching sense of laziness that permeates the last book. I don't necessarily have to agree with the way a plot thread is ending to appreciate it or find it satisfying. I don't mean to be down on the whole thing, but in a way I kind of am, I don't think I found a single plot resolution satisfying. They all just seemed perfunctory and almost purposefully uncreative. Oh well.
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Apr 25, 2013 15:15
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Man I promised myself when I started posting in this thread that I wouldn't go into this I'm not going to speculate too much about Jordan's wife except to say, I've known some guys who thought (without having been married) that women are supposed to be devious and nagging, and in the end they're always secretly in charge whether you know it or not, or whatever other bad 90s sitcom cliche you might name. When that's what you're looking for, sometimes that's what you find. Or else someone might fall in love with you and adapts to fill that role whether they realize it or not, because that's what you respond best to. So while I'm sure Jordan's wife resembles his characters at least in his mind, I'd say it's sort of a chicken-or-the-egg situation. Anyway I don't think "The setting demands it" is a very satisfying explanation here. I mean, to take it to a ludicrous extreme, I could make a fantasy universe where black people really are less intelligent and predisposed to be happier as slaves, but it wouldn't be such a hot idea. Jordan's basic premise was to invert the traditional power differential between men and women, which has interesting potential, but he largely just uses it to explore the fascinating consequences of what if a bunch of dusty sexist memes were unambiguously true. "Women don't need to be able to vote (on the Village Council), they actually have MORE power, because they control their husbands with sex and crafty manipulation!" Ditto for getting all the magic women together with no men around, and lo and behold, as you say they turn into the world's biggest "manipulative control freaks." McNerd fucked around with this message at 16:13 on Apr 25, 2013 |
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Apr 25, 2013 15:42
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It's kind of funny because it's basically mirroring the Catholic Church except with gender swapped. But as soon as it's women running the show somebody feels the need to white knight the mage tower.
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Apr 25, 2013 15:53
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Two Finger posted:Only one ever did and when I was a teenager I thought it was pretty hot to have an older woman chasing after you like she did and now I'm older I realise holy gently caress if the sexes were reversed a man literally tied a woman up, raped her, and then afterwards said 'oh, come on, you enjoyed that as much as I did' I think I've read that the idea there was to show young male readers 'hey, sexual abuse and harassment isn't funny when it happens to you," and also to counterbalance the later abduction of Tuon. I.e., if Mat hadn't had that character development making him understand why sexual harassment and aggression is scary and bad, the whole situation with Tuon could've gotten a lot darker. I'm not sure it really worked but I think that's what they were trying for there. McNerd posted:Let's also Yeah, the spanking poo poo I'm not going to defend. Frankly, the whole Faile/Perrin relationship is just weird and bad and unpleasant. api call girl posted:It's kind of funny because it's basically mirroring the Catholic Church except with gender swapped. But as soon as it's women running the show somebody feels the need to white knight the mage tower. Yeah, that's the other side of this; some, even many, of Jordan's characters are assholes because that's just part of their character, not part of their gender. When Lan is a hardass he's awesome; when Moiraine is a hardass she's a bitch, at least to a lot of readers. Similarly, the White Tower is drawn realistically -- it's basically a gender-swap of papal Rome, or what Rome could have been if all the Popes and all the priests had actual magical powers. A lot of the priests are well-intentioned but they all have very strong, very different opinions and some few are even downright evil. That's not to say that there isn't sexism in Jordan. The spanking stuff should have been left out, and that's not the only example. But a lot of his negative female characters are just assholes regardless of gender; Elaida and Jaichim Carridin are extremely similar characters, for example. Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 16:28 on Apr 25, 2013 |
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Apr 25, 2013 16:20
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api call girl posted:It's kind of funny because it's basically mirroring the Catholic Church except with gender swapped. But as soon as it's women running the show somebody feels the need to white knight the mage tower. Who did you think was "white knighting"? One of us called them manipulative control freaks and the other agreed. The semi-disagreement as I read it seems to be between "If that lovely group actually existed it would turn into a matriarchal culture, so he has that part right" and "That's true but he ain't got to write a book about it." Hieronymous Alloy posted:I think I've read that the idea there was to show young male readers 'hey, sexual abuse and dominance isn't funny when it happens to you," and also to counterbalance the later abduction of Tuon. The problem with that (aside from being poorly executed if that were the intent) is that as soon as Mat's leaving he realizes he really did love getting raped every day and now he misses it.
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Apr 25, 2013 16:28
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McNerd posted:Who did you think was "white knighting"? One of us called them manipulative control freaks and the other agreed. The semi-disagreement as I read it seems to be between "If that lovely group actually existed it would turn into a matriarchal culture, so he has that part right" and "That's true but he ain't got to write a book about it." White knighting women as the idealized concept who ought to be above the same bickering and backstabbing seen in the patriarchy, not white knighting the actual characters/institutions depicted in the book. quote:The problem with that (aside from being poorly executed if that were the intent) is that as soon as Mat's leaving he realizes he really did love getting raped every day and now he misses it. I STILL like how there's more manufactured outrage over this than the male-on-female rape prevalent throughout the rest of the genre, particularly the ones with royal power and that implied coercion involved.
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Apr 25, 2013 16:59
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api call girl posted:White knighting women as the idealized concept who ought to be above the same bickering and backstabbing seen in the patriarchy, not white knighting the actual characters/institutions depicted in the book. Let's be fair, I'm pretty sure Mat actually did enjoy it. He just didn't like the reversal of power that happened. As for the rest of it, well, I don't read a lot of other fantasy, unless you want me to get annoyed at Goodkind's multipage depictions of rape. I swear that man must get a hardon while writing it, but the more fool me for reading it.
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Apr 25, 2013 17:39
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Frankly, Hey, look how true that quote is! Hieronymous Alloy posted:Yeah, that's the other side of this; some, even many, of Jordan's characters are assholes because that's just part of their character, not part of their gender. When Lan is a hardass he's awesome; when Moiraine is a hardass she's a bitch, at least to a lot of readers. For what it's worth, I thought Moiraine was all awesome all the time. Actually it's interesting because in book one she plays into the Aes Sedai stereotype of selfish manipulative quasi-evil woman, but we find out later she's actually about as kind and honest and straightforward as an Aes Sedai comes. I actually like how this is played because the early books (book one in particular) are heavily colored by seeing through the eyes of the Emond's Fielders with their prejudices.
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Apr 25, 2013 17:46
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api call girl posted:White knighting women as the idealized concept who ought to be above the same bickering and backstabbing seen in the patriarchy, not white knighting the actual characters/institutions depicted in the book. Ah, I see. I assume I'm the white knight in question? But I agree, it makes perfect sense that there would be "bickering and backstabbing." I wouldn't even have a problem with a group of people who operated by quietly manipulating everyone without their knowing it, and happened to be women. That alone maybe flirts with sexist stereotypes about conniving deceitful women but as you say if you try too hard to avoid this stuff you wind up in trouble too. There's a line somewhere but whatever, I'm sure this would be fine if handled well. I have a problem because the obvious intended interpretation is the sexist one. They operate this way because in this universe it is the metaphysical nature of female power to manipulate from a submissive position. And if you leave them to it apparently they'll take over the world. This isn't subtle or a stretch; to my eye it's one of the clearest manifestations of Jordan's themes about the difference between men and women that span the entire series. quote:I STILL like how there's more manufactured outrage over this than the male-on-female rape prevalent throughout the rest of the genre, particularly the ones with royal power and that implied coercion involved. I haven't kept up with the fantasy genre well enough to speak of it on general but I found Game of Thrones completely unwatchable (and won't be checking out the books) for this reason, whereas I guess I managed to finish out WoT. Make of my priorities what you will. McNerd fucked around with this message at 18:30 on Apr 25, 2013 |
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Apr 25, 2013 18:22
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McNerd posted:Ah, I see. I assume I'm the white knight in question? There's nothing really inherently submissive about most of the matriarchy in the series, hence why it's called the matriarchy. Manipulative I'll give you, but we have a word that's pretty close for that too--Machiavellian. Funny that you should bring up "take over the world" because that's the central conceit of the series--they already have, and it wasn't primarily because they were submissive-manipulative total bitches. And as well, it's not that women are manipulating from within secrecy--they're manipulating pretty much out in the open. quote:I haven't kept up with the fantasy genre well enough to speak of it on general but I found Game of Thrones completely unwatchable (and won't be checking out the books) for this reason, whereas I guess I managed to finish out WoT. Make of my priorities what you will. It's pretty common and not just in GRRM. GRRM just manages to revel in it more, although I don't know if that's the right word for it either. VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE fucked around with this message at 18:35 on Apr 25, 2013 |
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Apr 25, 2013 18:31
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api call girl posted:There's nothing really inherently submissive about most of the matriarchy in the series, hence why it's called the matriarchy. Manipulative I'll give you, but we have a word that's pretty close for that too--Machiavellian. Yeah, it's kindof an interesting question actually. You can argue that the Aes Sedai aren't really portrayed that differently from, say, the Jesuits, Cardinal Richelieu, etc. -- Machiavellian schemers, etc. BUT because calling women manipulative is a frequent trope of sexist, misognyist narratives, it has an extra "sting" that a narrative featuring Machiavellian, scheming men wouldn't. As above -- nobody freaks out over what assholes the whitecloaks are, even though they're an all-male organization and Pedron Niall is basically the same character as Elaida with a gender-swap and no magic. Does avoiding misogyny in fantasy require a higher standard? Or is it enough to just have characters of both genders that are horrible people?
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Apr 25, 2013 18:44
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There's a general problem in perception of women/gender roles and maybe not just in fantasy or fiction in general: women are expected to lack a certain amount of social/sociological(?) agency. The interaction between that and RJ's writing in TWoT is an interesting one, and simultaneously I think RJ was fairly progressive but also didn't end up going far enough along certain axes.
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Apr 25, 2013 19:16
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api call girl posted:There's nothing really inherently submissive about most of the matriarchy in the series, hence why it's called the matriarchy. Fair enough, counterexamples certainly abound. What's your take on the whole saidin/saidar thing then? Surely you have to agree it has some metaphorical significance in this series which is constantly fixated on gender roles/essentialism. quote:It's pretty common and not just in GRRM. GRRM just manages to revel in it more, although I don't know if that's the right word for it either. That is lovely but somehow unsurprising to hear.
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Apr 25, 2013 19:19
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Yeah, it's kindof an interesting question actually. You can argue that the Aes Sedai aren't really portrayed that differently from, say, the Jesuits, Cardinal Richelieu, etc. -- Machiavellian schemers, etc. BUT because calling women manipulative is a frequent trope of sexist, misognyist narratives, it has an extra "sting" that a narrative featuring Machiavellian, scheming men wouldn't. I disagree. I actually liked Pedron Niall. He was competent, he had a clear plan, and he was putting it in action. Unfortunately, he misread the situation rather drastically. He was a good character, I thought. Tough as nails old man doing what he believes in. I can respect that. Elaida was just power hungry to begin with, monstrously so after Fain got his hooks into her.
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Apr 25, 2013 19:20
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Elaida was always power hungry but she also had the same kind of misguided but very firm belief that the Last Battle was going to be all about her, and the Dragon merely a means towards her plan for winning the last battle. Pedron Niall made basically the same mistake and if I had the time to find them I think there are even passages from each of their viewpoints with parallel language about what the Last Battle was going to "really" be like and how they had to fight for their vision in order to keep humanity safe. Of course both were similarly corrupted by Fain, Elaida probably worse. But Elaida's actions aren't as horrible as they seem to us from Siuan's viewpoint -- even Siuan knows and says repeatedly in the first few books "I'll probably be stilled for doing this" or words to that effect.
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Apr 25, 2013 19:32
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Elaida was always power hungry but she also had the same kind of misguided but very firm belief that the Last Battle was going to be all about her, and the Dragon merely a means towards her plan for winning the last battle. Pedron Niall made basically the same mistake and if I had the time to find them I think there are even passages from each of their viewpoints with parallel language about what the Last Battle was going to "really" be like and how they had to fight for their vision in order to keep humanity safe. Oh great, so I'm just sexist. Someone get that wheel of time re-read person in here to write a 6 page essay berating me. When you talk about Elaida's actions, are you talking pre or post Fain? Because she builds a tower to her own glory. That's pretty out there. Though thinking about it, I wonder if Cadsuane is a similar sort of personality to pre-crazy Elaida.
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Apr 25, 2013 19:37
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My motivation for the comment that inadvertently provoked this discussion had more to do with the unlikability (for me, at least) of most of the female protagonists. The only ones I really liked were Egwene--who was an rear end in a top hat pretty much all the time, but at least she wasn't constantly childish about it like Faile and it's the kind of rear end in a top hat you kind of expect a leader has to be--and Post-Block Nynaeve. Siuan, I guess. I dunno, for me maybe it's mostly about how much I detest Elayne and Faile. e: Yeah, and Cadsuane too. Tam giving her a heaping dose of comeuppance is on my top five favorite WoT moments ever. e2: Tam is the most awesome character in the series and it isn't close, actually.
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Apr 25, 2013 19:37
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Eric the Mauve posted:My motivation for the comment that inadvertently provoked this discussion had more to do with the unlikability (for me, at least) of most of the female protagonists. The only ones I really liked were Egwene--who was an rear end in a top hat pretty much all the time, but at least she wasn't constantly childish about it like Faile and it's the kind of rear end in a top hat you kind of expect a leader has to be--and Post-Block Nynaeve. Siuan, I guess. Hey, don't get me wrong, I like Cadsuane too. Again, tough as nails, takes no prisoners, gets poo poo done. I assume you're talking about towards the end of TGS?
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Apr 25, 2013 19:42
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Yes, and to be clear I was listing Cadsuane as a character I hate. She doesn't really get that much poo poo done, she just gets off on bullying people. Here's the thing, too, since we're already waist deep in gender-relations arguing: Name one prominent male character who isn't a Darkfriend who is the kind of balls-out full-time bully that Cadsuane or Elaida or even Faile is. I don't think there is one except maybe Darth Rand. This was either a mistake or an unfortunate choice on Jordan's part.
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Apr 25, 2013 19:46
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Would Couladin count? He wasn't really full on darkfriend so much as just desperately power hungry and twisted by the Forsaken.
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Apr 25, 2013 19:50
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Eric the Mauve posted:Yes, and to be clear I was listing Cadsuane as a character I hate. She doesn't really get that much poo poo done, she just gets off on bullying people. In terms of recurring, multi-book, POV characters with relatively large (yet non-central) impact? Eamon Valda comes to mind. Also, don't discount Cadsuane. She and her collection of Aes Sedai worked pretty tirelessly to hold together Rand's conquests in ways that aren't "welp 200000 Aiel camped in town". She did the job she claimed (as Rand's "advisor") pretty admirably. Of the Jendai Prophecy of the Coramoor, of the Aes Sedai who washed Rand's feet with their hair, I think Cadsuane's posse fulfills that the most.
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Apr 25, 2013 19:55
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Two Finger posted:Oh great, so I'm just sexist. Someone get that wheel of time re-read person in here to write a 6 page essay berating me. Pre-Fain, and I'm not calling you sexist, you can climb down from your high horse. I just think that savvy, gender-aware readers have a tendency to notice when female characters are depicted negatively, but to not notice similar negative depictions of male characters, in part because misogyny is such a huge problem with the genre overall and especially in older fantasy. As mentioned above, just as one example, GRRM has a host of personal issues with women and I find his writing deeply uncomfortable to read. With Jordan I think it's more complicated. He's not by any means gender-perfect either, but I think he was making a genuine effort to draw his male and female characters equally, and often that meant having male and female characters who were equally conceited, bossy, obnoxious, etc. In other words, I wasn't saying you were sexist, just that you might be suffering from some degree of selection bias. Eric the Mauve posted:My motivation for the comment that inadvertently provoked this discussion had more to do with the unlikability (for me, at least) of most of the female protagonists. The only ones I really liked were Egwene--who was an rear end in a top hat pretty much all the time, but at least she wasn't constantly childish about it like Faile and it's the kind of rear end in a top hat you kind of expect a leader has to be--and Post-Block Nynaeve. Siuan, I guess. For what it's worth I couldn't stand Cadsuane but mostly because I felt like she was a gratuitous character who didn't need to be in the story but Jordan wanted to include a Granny Weatherwax knockoff for some reason so in she went. Nynaeve's odd because she gets a lot more sympathetic on a re-read. She's in over her head -- really even before we meet her, as a too-young Wisdom in a village that's not giving her any respect -- but determined to protect her villagers.
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Apr 25, 2013 19:55
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Eric the Mauve posted:Here's the thing, too, since we're already waist deep in gender-relations arguing: Name one prominent male character who isn't a Darkfriend who is the kind of balls-out full-time bully that Cadsuane or Elaida or even Faile is. I don't think there is one except maybe Darth Rand. This was either a mistake or an unfortunate choice on Jordan's part. I take your point, but there are only so many places such a character could have gone, given that the existing power structures in the world are mostly either female-run or deeply opposed to Rand from the get-go and thus enemies, not bullying allies. You're basically looking at the Whitecloaks - and I think both Valda and Niall could qualify -- maybe Couladin as mentioned, maybe High Lord Turak in his brief appearance. Ultimately, Cadsuane and Elaida are bossy because they're in charge. We don't see that many other viewpoint characters who are that indisputably in charge of their own organizations. When we do, they're either enemies and pretty similar to Elaida (Niall, Valda) or they're ultimately allies or pseudo-allies and thus drawn more sympathetically (Siuan, Tuon). I guess Jordan could have included a brash, bullying male ally figure to balance Cadsuane. But it would've been better to just cut Cadsuane entirely and let Elaida and Niall balance each other out. Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 20:08 on Apr 25, 2013 |
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Apr 25, 2013 20:01
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Pre-Fain, and I'm not calling you sexist, you can climb down from your high horse. Text is really hard to convey sarcasm in :/ For the record, I work in an extremely male-dominated industry (seafarers) and I am well aware my own views are coloured by that a lot. That said, it really, really ground my gears when that WOT re-reader wrote her huge essays on sexism, because it just seems like such a total nonissue. Not sexism itself, that is - sexism in a fantasy novel. I think my biggest problem with Cadsuane is the way she's introduced. I may be remembering wrong, and it's been a while, but doesn't she just turn up and everyone's like 'oh, this is Cadsuane. She's a legend.' Seems it would have been a lot better if she'd been at all mentioned before randomly showing up. I agree with you about Jordan making a conscious effort - Moiraine is really the perfect example of this. She fills the role of the 'Gandalf' type character, except with some enormous riffs on the cliche - she's a young, attractive woman who is not in the slightest bit sexualised (unless you count Perrin bursting in on her naked, which was just weird), she - as mentioned - has her own goals and so on that she moves towards, and she even takes down one of the goddamn Forsaken. Nynaeve as you mentioned is also really good. Jordan does well, I think. Sure, some of his characters aren't perfect - and I gotta say I never minded Faile - but he does make a real effort.
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Apr 25, 2013 20:07
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Two Finger posted:and she even takes down one of the goddamn Forsaken. I really like to count Lanfear as one of her kills as well.
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Apr 25, 2013 20:14
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api call girl posted:I really like to count Lanfear as one of her kills as well. As I was saying when you so rudely interrupted me, she kills one of the Forsaken, then she marches to her own death (well, effectively) and does so willingly.
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Apr 25, 2013 20:16
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Not like killing Forsaken is hard, some characters can barely turn a corner without stubbing their toe and having a Forsaken fall over dead on their own massive hubris Now that's a whole other "Jordanism", but we've been over that one.
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Apr 25, 2013 20:39
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I always pictured WoT being best as an Graphic novel series. So many sniffs and looks could be fit on one page. It would never work on TV or film imo.
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Apr 26, 2013 01:52
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subpage posted:I always pictured WoT being best as an Graphic novel series. So many sniffs and looks could be fit on one page. It would never work on TV or film imo. Anime TV series. It's almost perfect for it. Plot stretches on forever, lots of costumes, big colorful magic weaves everywhere.
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Apr 26, 2013 13:54
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