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Razorwired posted:One has the right feel. If this was any other designer I'd know this was a joke.
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May 3, 2013 17:50
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Payndz posted:This kind of stuff is why I like the "There's always a chance" rule tucked away in the back of Basic so much, and why having massive lists of skills is such a drag. In the former, it's "I'm going to roll under INT to see if I know the ingredients of the poison/the king's family tree/what breed of dog this is/whatever", make one roll, done. In the latter, it's "Okay, who's got Herbalism/Know Lore: History/Know Lore: Nature/etc", and people are scanning through their character sheets and adding nickel-and-dime bonuses to some arbitrary DC, rather just rolling the dice and getting an immediate answer. This is a personal preference, but I'm okay with a bit of nickel-and-diming as long as the process by which it's done is fun in and of itself. I think spending 30 seconds scanning your character sheet and adding up +1s is boring for everyone at the table, but I kind of enjoy negotiation with the GM, trying to find reasons why you're especially well suited to succeed in this situation based on established scene-facts. I can definitely see why some people would find it a drag, and it's everyone's responsibility to sense if anyone else at the table's not into it, but I love it. I like the roll under stats thing since it gives everyone a chance but also gives big bonuses to well-suited characters. I'd personally want just a bit more interactivity than just that, though--maybe a way to have psuedo-trained skills where if the action is one your character is specifically supposed to be good at you get a reroll, so a low-INT knight's not hugely less likely to know about the king's family tree than a high-INT hermit wizard. You could probably handle it through common sense, or maybe even come up with some system for giving each character a number of skills/traits/facts that both serve to mesh them into the setting better and also to give them a sort of loose skill set.
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May 3, 2013 18:20
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Guilty Spork posted:There does seem to be a thing with a big swath of RPG players that they've let themselves be trained to see something as more "real" when there's a dice roll involved, even if the dice roll is actually totally meaningless. I think it comes down to viewing the rules as a neutral party and therefore a 'fair' arbiter of fictional events as opposed to the GM who may be biased for or against any or all of the players. A player wants to have some certainty in their evaluation of the risks involved in taking an action so they can weigh the rewards. Dice targets give them clear odds to think about, next to which GM fiat could easily 'feel' arbitrary. I am staring to grow on the idea that large swaths of the game rules should just be replaced by "The Expected Thing Happens" such that players can feel free to act under reasonable expectations of what their characters can do. The idea is totally genre-neutral and you only get into mechanics in more dramatic situations - i.e. not even bothering to look up difficulty targets and do the mental math for minimum and maximum rolls. To this end, I'm a fan of the idea of character statistics granting player fiats to do certain things without roll, such that statistics serve to explicitly increase character agency by allowing the player to make fiat declarations of what their character does. The mechanics could be called 'Fiats' 
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May 3, 2013 18:21
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Maybe you could, to a point, go back to 2e's 'some classes use some stats better than everyone else' functionality - like maybe a fighter with high enough strength can reasonably bend any bars and lift any gates he comes across. Maybe a barbarian with high enough constitution never has to worry about exhaustion, or a Ranger with high enough Wisdom can always reliably track animals. To an extent, certain classes having more use out of certain stats made sense to me as a player. The problem with 2e's stats is that they were mostly useless until you reached the extremely high end and were all tied to boring bonuses - extra spells, better ac, extra HP, extra damage. Most of these classes had core class abilities that were a separate or a percentage based roll. Why not make the interesting abilities what are tied to the ability scores?
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May 3, 2013 19:03
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You're basically talking about Castles & Crusades, which is AD&D with a task resolution system--pick two ability scores (humans pick 3) and the check is easier for anything related to the ones you picked.
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May 3, 2013 19:11
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Guilty Spork posted:There does seem to be a thing with a big swath of RPG players that they've let themselves be trained to see something as more "real" when there's a dice roll involved, even if the dice roll is actually totally meaningless. It's probably a lot to do with why some people have trouble with the very idea of a diceless RPG, even if they've never even skimmed one at a game store. I think people just like that dice are unbiased. That's why I like them at least. Dice don't play favorites.
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May 3, 2013 21:16
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Nihnoz posted:I think people just like that dice are unbiased. That's why I like them at least. Dice don't play favorites. The guy arbitrarily assigning the DC does, though.
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May 3, 2013 21:17
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Mikan posted:The guy arbitrarily assigning the DC and then changing it after you roll does, though. Fixed that for you. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 3, 2013 21:30
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Death Bot posted:Fixed that for you. It's fine as long as the players never figure out.
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May 3, 2013 21:34
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OtspIII posted:I kind of enjoy negotiation with the GM, trying to find reasons why you're especially well suited to succeed in this situation based on established scene-facts. See FATE for details. I think the thread is being sucked into the same trap Next is - 'Which D&D is better' instead of 'What's a good way to make rules for X'. But then, Next has pretty much said it's not interested in actually making good rules. Whoever it was who called it "D&D Previous" was absolutely on the money, I think. The weird thing to my mind is that the design team have reached the conclusion that the existing market share (even if you handwave people who won't 'upgrade') is greater than 'all potential customers'. I just can't understand that, I know rpg's aren't ever going to be a big market share of WOTC's business, but surely 'make a game with really good rules under the D&D banner' isn't that ourageous? I think most of us agree that D&D is the gateway rpg, and I just can't understand WOTC giving so little of a poo poo that they don't try to leverage their asset.
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May 4, 2013 00:49
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petrol blue posted:I think the thread is being sucked into the same trap Next is - 'Which D&D is better' instead of 'What's a good way to make rules for X'. I don't think we've been sucked into the trap. It's more like we've resigned ourselves to the terms set out by Next. Like you say, they're not interested in moving forward. So if we're going to look backwards, we might as well try to look into the best backwards we can find.
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May 4, 2013 01:44
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PeterWeller posted:I don't think we've been sucked into the trap. It's more like we've resigned ourselves to the terms set out by Next. Like you say, they're not interested in moving forward. So if we're going to look backwards, we might as well try to look into the best backwards we can find. Imagine 4 D&D editions standing at the edge of a cliff...
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May 4, 2013 01:46
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Probably best to stick to cooking then, the cooking part of this thread rules.
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May 4, 2013 02:02
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Anyone got any good quick and easy shepherd's pie recipes? I love that dish, but I've never made it and I am lazy as gently caress about cooking; like an hour of prep/food-babysitting is the high end of my tolerance level.
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May 4, 2013 02:12
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I have leftover dinner for breakfast, my friends think this is weird. Is it?
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May 4, 2013 02:13
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I usually wait to have leftover dinner for lunch, but I don't think there's anything wrong with having it for breakfast if that's what you want to eat.
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May 4, 2013 02:21
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Hot breakfast is the best breakfast.
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May 4, 2013 02:50
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homerlaw posted:I have leftover dinner for breakfast, my friends think this is weird. Is it? Cold pizza in the morning is the best.
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May 4, 2013 02:53
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Failboattootoot posted:Cold pizza in the morning is the best. I find Dominos is a good cold-pizza, but something greasier like Pizza Hut should always be eaten warm. e: Canadian versions, anyway. btw Canadian and American Corn Pops are completely different.
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May 4, 2013 02:56
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P.d0t posted:btw Canadian and American Corn Pops are completely different. As an American, I cannot imagine how they'd be anything but what I'm accustomed to. Please explain this further. e:   moths fucked around with this message at 03:11 on May 4, 2013 |
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May 4, 2013 03:02
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So which are which? Bottom right is American Pops, right?
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May 4, 2013 03:13
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According to a breakfast cereal blogger:quote:Top: Kix, Lower Left: Corn Pops - Canada, Lower Right: Corn Pops - U.S.A.
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May 4, 2013 03:27
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P.d0t posted:Anyone got any good quick and easy shepherd's pie recipes? It is any leftovers you happen to have, the point of it is that I think. Honestly wait until you have leftover mashed potatos, then make some gravy and raid the fridge for any leftovers that might sound decent in there and cram them into a pie plate and cover that with the taters.
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May 4, 2013 03:31
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OtspIII posted:I like the roll under stats thing since it gives everyone a chance but also gives big bonuses to well-suited characters. I'd personally want just a bit more interactivity than just that, though--maybe a way to have psuedo-trained skills where if the action is one your character is specifically supposed to be good at you get a reroll, so a low-INT knight's not hugely less likely to know about the king's family tree than a high-INT hermit wizard. You could probably handle it through common sense, or maybe even come up with some system for giving each character a number of skills/traits/facts that both serve to mesh them into the setting better and also to give them a sort of loose skill set. If only there were a way to make characters proficient at things that aren't weapons... 
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May 4, 2013 04:44
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P.d0t posted:Anyone got any good quick and easy shepherd's pie recipes? Quick and lazy shepherd's pie (technically it's a cottage pie since I use beef but whatever). Brown a pound-and-a-half of ground beef with some onions, then you can add other vegetables as the mood suits you staggering their addition as not to overcook them. I generally add a couple cans of corn (drained), some chopped mushrooms, and some celery. You could add carrots or peas if you wanted, I usually don't. It's up to you! Once that's all cooked up, I make a sauce that's roughly equal parts brown gravy (since we're being lazy use a mix, it's fine) and A-1 steak sauce. No seriously, it's good. You want to make enough that you can mix it all up with your meat and veg and get a nice blend going. Then once you do that you layer the whole thing in the bottom of an oven-safe baking dish large enough to hold it all. I've used a 9x13 Pyrex, but you can use a smaller casserole dish if you adjust the proportions. Then make up some mashed potatoes using whichever recipe you prefer and you layer that over the top of your meat mixture. Bake the whole thing for about 25-35 minutes at 350-degrees until it's hot all the way through, then turn the broiler on for a couple of minutes to brown the top. Some people put cheese on top of the potatoes before they stick it in the oven but I prefer it without.
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May 4, 2013 06:24
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My oven just ate its own gun, so I guess grill season has started now. Gonna make some delicious ribs. Sure hope it doesn't start raining in the evening, ever.
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May 4, 2013 07:55
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Mormon Star Wars posted:If only there were a way to make characters proficient at things that aren't weapons...
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May 4, 2013 08:12
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Payndz posted:Aaaand so begins the inexorable slide towards long lists of skills, and then feats, and then we're back at Next again! When its time to start a game I want to make a character and play, not plan its theoretical lifecycle for 20 levels out.
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May 4, 2013 10:36
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P.d0t posted:Anyone got any good quick and easy shepherd's pie recipes? Generally, I make a shepherd's pie in three steps. 1) Figure out what kind of meaty leftovers I have. Chicken, pork, turkey, hamburger... really anything works great. I usually throw it in the pan with a bit of olive oil to reheat/recrsip them a little, and to give more of a flavor base. 2) Combine the following: Mashed potatoes Peas (IMPORTANT, the peas are amazing and actually make a huge difference. Frozen peas are the ones you want, they're actually better than fresh ones 99% of the time) Whatever else you have laying around. Onions are great (throw them in with the meat in the previous step to get some crisp on them), some people like carrots although I personally can't stand them. Roasted red peppers. I've mixed in green beans before too, chopped up a little - it was surprisingly good. Depending on how dry your leftovers are, you may need to add a bit of moisture. This is usually simple as putting some water or olive oil in - don't overdo it, but you don't want the pie to be too dry. If you have any gravy laying around, absolutely use that and throw it in. 3) Cook them together. This is mostly a matter of flavoring and letting it intermingle. I usually just put my cast-iron pan in the oven at 250 for ~30 minutes so it can simmer together. I then usually turn the temperature way up or use broil to crisp the surface of the pie, which is usually about another 5 minutes although it may vary depending on moisture/oven/amount of mashed potatoes. Look for golden brown crust.
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May 4, 2013 10:46
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petrol blue posted:I know rpg's aren't ever going to be a big market share of WOTC's business, but surely 'make a game with really good rules under the D&D banner' isn't that ourageous? FRINGE posted:NWPs were fun because they added flavor and RP options without shifting the "crunchy" gameplay much. Feats were (incredibly) tedious charop BS. (In my grognardy opinion.) P.d0t posted:Anyone got any good quick and easy shepherd's pie recipes? 2) Set some meat browning. 3) Dice up some carrots and peas and onions and stuff, whatever you like in your pie, and add them to the browned meat. Throw the vegetables and meat into your preferred oven dish.* There's no need for simmering, that's what the baking step is for. 4) Potatoes should be boiled by now. Err on the side of overboiling since it means you can mash them easier and they will lose some moisture in the oven. Do not throw out the potato water. Drain it into the pan you cooked the meat in. Add butter, milk and salt** to the potatoes, mash 'em up. 5) Gravy Mix the potato water some pepper and, depending on the other vegetables, herbs, some brown sugar, and some salt or soy sauce, and leave to simmer. The sugar is because carrots and those sweet tasting peas contain a lot of natural sugars and are needed for your gravy to taste nice, if you don't include them you'll need to add a little sugar instead. Don't do all three unless you like very sweet gravy. Simmer gravy until it reduces to however much gravy you want in your pies. 6) Put the meats and gravy in with the vegetables, stir it up, put the potatoes on top, freeze the ones for keeping, and bake for whatever amount of time you like. Remove cover about 5 minutes towards the end to get a delicious crust, and to throw some grated cheese on if you're into that. **I would recommend making multiple small pies, baking one and freezing the others, because the best part of making shepherd's pie is a week later when you remember that you have dinner already made, just needs ovening. You'll want to make flat pies (about four inches thick) for freezing, thick, deep pies will take too long to bake from frozen. This is also why you don't simmer as you can leave them baking for longer without ruining the bits that heated up faster. The one you're cooking now can be any shape you like. ***If your gravy has ended up a bit too salty skip the salt in the potatoes. It shouldn't take more than 30 minutes from chop to oven depending on the quantities made. Edited because I somehow wrote down the wrong gravy procedure. Splicer fucked around with this message at 13:53 on May 4, 2013 |
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May 4, 2013 13:25
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quote:1) Peel your potatoes, chop them up, set them boiling. You people are crazy. Wash the potatoes and boil them whole, dirty mashed potatoes are amazing. Anyone who says otherwise is wrong.  E: This works a lot better with smaller potatoes - I usually use Red or Gold potatoes, which are on the small side. Larger ones should be chopped before boiling, but I still leave the skin on. RPZip fucked around with this message at 13:41 on May 4, 2013 |
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May 4, 2013 13:35
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Splicer posted:Assuminmg you mean feats as implemented as opposed to the concept of feats in general, then that's not a grognardy opinion, just a realistic one. If you mean feats as a concept too then it's still not a grognardy opinion, though I would still disagree. "Feats" still feel like as much or more of a letdown than they did the very first time I saw what they were. The idea that your character learns a new Feat every few levels is loving awesome. The idea that a "feat" can be "is slightly better at Knowledge: Pub Trivia" is disappointingly silly. Oxford English Dictionary posted:Definition of feat So gently caress "feats" in D&D. They're terrible. I am 100% behind the idea that once every few levels, you learn a cool new thing that requires great courage, skill, or strength. "5% better with a sword" doesn't count. Neither does "Slightly faster to react than the average person".
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May 4, 2013 13:39
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RPZip posted:You people are crazy. Wash the potatoes and boil them whole, dirty mashed potatoes are amazing. Anyone who says otherwise is wrong. AlphaDog posted:So gently caress "feats" in D&D. They're terrible. Feats in 3.5/4e are what I'd call "Tweaks". Things you can use to make your character just so. Spending a tweak to gain multiclassing makes sense, for example. Or spending one to alter a regular power (Feat) or swap it out for a cooler one. But having the ability to tweak the class a little to suit what you want to do with it is a good thing. +5% to hit with swords is even worse when you look at it like that because that's not tweaking things, that's something you pretty much have to take that further genericifies use. Splicer fucked around with this message at 13:48 on May 4, 2013 |
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May 4, 2013 13:41
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Pathfinder's traits are a pretty good name for what Feats really are.
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May 4, 2013 13:53
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AlphaDog posted:"Feats" still feel like as much or more of a letdown than they did the very first time I saw what they were.
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May 4, 2013 20:40
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Payndz posted:Seriously, Charge? 'Run at someone while still having the wherewithal to wave a sword' is not really the stuff of legend.  I actually had to download the package so I could see it with my own eyes. Yep, it's all there.  Jesus Christ, Mearls hates martials with a passion. He literally thinks swordfighting consists of standing still and swinging a stick real hard. Does the guy even lift? vvv: Yep, that's exactly what this means. The amazing verisimilitudinousness of combatants being incapable of moving around the battlefield faster than a leasurely walk without some heroic level training is truly revolutionary. Littlefinger fucked around with this message at 21:49 on May 4, 2013 |
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May 4, 2013 21:30
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Maybe he considers swordfighting to be so hard and complicated that even charging someone is considered a feat of skill that can't possibly be covered by your class training.
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May 4, 2013 21:38
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I was starting to think that some of you are so fed up with how badly Wziards has executed feats that you're sour on them as a concept, until I read you clarifying what you meant. I'm thinking that BECMI's skill system is the best "feat system" D&D has seen so far. Granted, it had some crappy skills.
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May 4, 2013 22:32
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Payndz posted:Absolutely. A 'feat' should be 'punch someone so hard their next of kin gets the bruise' or 'hide in a brightly-lit empty room' or 'run along clouds' or 'I AM THE MOON'. The stuff Next is offering is utterly mundane. Seriously, Charge? 'Run at someone while still having the wherewithal to wave a sword' is not really the stuff of legend. And as for Herbalism, drat. "Observe, mortal, as I... MIX INGREDIENTS!" Wait... They made Charge into a feat? Really? Really? "Hey guys, I know players have complained about Feat Tax in literally every version of the game to have feats... I know. Why not make it so an action type that literally every melee fighter will need at some point in their career to remain useful into something that requires a limited feat slot! You'll have to make major sacrifices over something more fun and interesting because we balanced the game around having it from the ground up!" Mirthless fucked around with this message at 22:46 on May 4, 2013 |
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May 4, 2013 22:43
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Rexides posted:Maybe he considers swordfighting to be so hard and complicated that even charging someone is considered a feat of skill that can't possibly be covered by your class training. It'll be hilarious if they stick with monsters-built-like-PCs. Every single brawler monster will either need to take this feat or be even more useless vs ranged combatants than previously.
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May 4, 2013 22:49
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