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SubponticatePoster posted:If you're already using an ID that doesn't look like you (whether it's you or not) and can't answer this question you ain't getting in my bar. It's not worth losing the liquor license or getting my rear end fined to let 1 person in, sorry. Eh, grow/shave a beard. It's interesting because I've gotten some somewhat intense looks, but never been asked anything to get in as if someone were testing my ID. I did have a guy at the door declare that one of my friends (real) IDs was fake about 6-7 years back. How would you respond if someone started pulling out credit cards / health insurance cards / etc with the same name on it? Also -- I thought the big gimmick with 'older sibling' IDs was that they were expired which made them fairly easy to spot?
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May 3, 2013 00:16
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FaceEater posted:We tend to see a good number of people trying to get in with papers that are similar to or supposedly in lieu of their ID. People that supposedly got their licenses taken away for a ticket or lost them or somesuch. Those people don't get let in, and while I understand some court in some other state might've given it to you, I don't know what a ticket from Idaho actually looks like, so, sorry. I've used a B&W passport photocopy to get into bars (and coffeeshops in Amsterdam), so it's not as crazy as you think, at least from a European mindset.
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May 3, 2013 00:28
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Zauper posted:Eh, grow/shave a beard. 
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May 3, 2013 00:34
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PT6A posted:I've used a B&W passport photocopy to get into bars (and coffeeshops in Amsterdam), so it's not as crazy as you think, at least from a European mindset. I wasn't really thinking about a cultural aspect of it. It just seems like perhaps one of the most easy ways to potentially attempt to falsify identity that I've ever been actually confronted with. Print out one number on a piece of paper using the same font as your passport, affix it over the appropriate date on your actual passport, slap it in a copier and voila! Instant counterfeit "ID." But, not. Ally McBeal Wiki fucked around with this message at 04:16 on May 3, 2013 |
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May 3, 2013 04:14
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On the subject of fake ID's, I've done a fair amount of research on it the last month. Some of my better bartenders started catching these really good, near perfect fakes here and there. Prior to this, every internet purchased fake ID (or even homemade) I'd ever seen had been absolutely laughable and I was never concerned about those kinds of ID's getting past people I'd trained. But these new ones are good, one slight variation, one font that isn't quite right, and if you aren't comparing them to the book you'd likely not even notice. First couple that got handed to me to review, I knew they felt off somehow but I wasn't entirely sure I'd have even caught them myself. So off to Google. Start looking around, find a couple news articles about fake ID's coming out of China that are near perfect. Find the websites that sell them (ID Chief, now ID Buddy I think). Local cops, our liquor commission, nobody had come and talked to us about these being out there and how to spot them. The training I got on fakes when I started was all in house, off of a stack of ID's that had been confiscated or left over the years. My training process is the same, except we've stopped being dependent on black light and UV because I knew that was already being faked. Finally find Fake ID Trainers (whose site is up and down loving constantly) and their Facebook page under "Fakeidbuster" (which is way more reliable). Detailed information on how to validate ID's, pointing out what to look for and examples of these new fakes so that you can compare against the real ones. Apparently the only thing they can't reproduce is microprint, which you can't see with the naked eye and need a magnifier to spot. So I buy a couple 20x magnifiers, go over everything with my staff, tell them which ID's I'm concerned about and write down where you can find the microprint on each. They've now caught a dozen of these things in the last two weeks and a few of them I recognized from being in the bar before. So something to look into if you are just starting a security job and want to impress potential employers because they might not be aware of this information. And definitely something you should look into if you are regularly checking ID's and/or value your liquor license.
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May 3, 2013 10:06
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SubponticatePoster posted:This. As ID's get more sophisticated and harder to fake they get someone else's real ID. Hahaha. quote:Do you get any specialized training on recognizing discrepancies between the photo on the ID and the person's face? Eye color is usually the biggest. I've caught a couple of people with fakes because their eye colors didn't match with the ID provided. Typically, my joint will ask for a secondary form of ID (birth certificate, health card or other esoteric forms, such as baptismal certificate, firearm license, Native status card, etc.) and/or ask the person in question to sign their name for them three times to see if it matches the signature. If we're still not convinced, we ask the patron if they could bring up their phone and go into their Facebook page. Anyone under the age of 18 these days has a smart phone and a Facebook account.
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May 3, 2013 11:23
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Photocopying your passport also stops people (especially the police) from stealing it and blackmailing you. It was one of the first things my teacher taught us about traveling in Russia. 
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May 3, 2013 12:14
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It doesn't help that a lot of those European tourists have the attitude "checking ages is bullshit, I've been drinking since I was 15."
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May 3, 2013 13:28
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When I lived overseas I used a photocopy and liquor servers were much more blase about serving whoever. As far as I know it's just the US where bars have to care (due to police / liquor authority meddling) and where people would have to go so far as to be peering at IDs through magnifying glasses. :sherlock:
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May 3, 2013 14:29
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Yeah, I think it's ultimately because, even if there is a drinking age and someone manages to finally give a poo poo, it'll be the person trying to pass a fake ID who gets in the most trouble (as it should be). Why should bartenders and (in the case of tobacco) retail employees be responsible for determining the validity of increasingly-realistic IDs, under the threat of really harsh punishments if they screw up? More honest people are going to get turned away, and inevitably some number of fakes will still get through. It seems like enforcement is going about it all wrong. Another thing is that people in the US are remarkably casual about carrying an illegal replica of government-issued ID. I looked into getting one when I was 16-17 to buy smokes, but ultimately it was easier, safer and cheaper for me to just find the shops that never checked IDs (there's more of them than you think!). On the other hand, my American uncle bought his stepdaughter a fake ID so she could drink underage (theoretically "a glass of wine with dinner," but I don't think even he was stupid/naive enough to not realize she was drinking in bars).
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May 3, 2013 15:44
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PT6A posted:Why should bartenders and (in the case of tobacco) retail employees be responsible for determining the validity of increasingly-realistic IDs, under the threat of really harsh punishments if they screw up? For the same reason we get to pay your medical bills when you come to our bar, ask us for a drink, we give you one, and then you crash your car because oh no you had a drink waka waka waka
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May 3, 2013 16:16
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Up here, in BC at least, we're expected to ask for 2 pieces of ID, and bars I've worked at have had signage up saying we could ask for up to 4 pieces. The fines up here are pretty gross though, so I think that's understandable. Fakes have certainly gotten a lot better than when I was 17 though; back then I scanned my Canadian Identity card (a card declaring citizenship) which back then was literally just laminated paper, no holograms or plastic or anything, altered the dates in some image program, printed it out on photo paper and took it down to Kinkos to get laminated again - worked like a charm too. When I started working in environments that checked ID's though I never ever accepted them myself - waaaaaay too easy to fake - and they've since changed them to actual plastic cards now. Good to know about those high-quality fakes though Dirnok, thanks. I don't really work in a bar that attracts a young crowd anymore, but it'll be good to keep in mind.
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May 3, 2013 17:25
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PT6A posted:Yeah, I think it's ultimately because, even if there is a drinking age and someone manages to finally give a poo poo, it'll be the person trying to pass a fake ID who gets in the most trouble (as it should be). Why should bartenders and (in the case of tobacco) retail employees be responsible for determining the validity of increasingly-realistic IDs, under the threat of really harsh punishments if they screw up? More honest people are going to get turned away, and inevitably some number of fakes will still get through. It seems like enforcement is going about it all wrong. Up here in our neck of the woods, the issue is whether you are taking the steps to try and identify someone and are reasonably trying to prevent the sale or consumption of alcohol by minors, not whether or not you're the fake ID police. The liquor board (again, in my neck of the woods) is aware that fakes are ridiculously good, but if you aren't bothering to check their ID at all, well, you aren't doing your job as required by law. Two situations that happened at my bar: - Bartender working a corner bar gets a group of youngsters. Unsure, he IDs the group of them, checks their IDs and then proceeds to serve them. Liquor inspector happened to be in and was doing random spot checks on IDs that day. He comes by this table, nails a girl with a fake and writes the bar up. Bar gets a chance to plead their case, show video of the bartender IDing the group, points out that the girl's fake was really good. Result? No fine, and the bartender was ruled to have done his job. - Another guy on a slow Wednesday during Spring Break gets a group of youngsters in. He doesn't bother to ID them, turns out that they were working undercover for the liquor inspector. Bar gets fined, guy loses his job.
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May 3, 2013 19:10
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JawKnee posted:Up here, in BC at least, we're expected to ask for 2 pieces of ID, and bars I've worked at have had signage up saying we could ask for up to 4 pieces. That's pretty ridiculous. Is that 4 pieces of valid ID? Because there aren't actually that many forms here in the UK...passport, provisional driving licence, full driving licence, um...Citizen Card? Those are pretty scarce and places don't always accept them. Yeah 4 pieces of ID would be completely unrealistic here. On the other hand, asking for ID and checking against a debit card, health insurance card and other common cards in a wallet isn't uncommon I guess.
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May 3, 2013 20:47
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Yep, valid pieces. Not necessarily photoid though, you only really need one, or maaaaaybe 2 of those max. Basically when I ask for cards I'm looking for a photo id and something else with your name on it (credit card or something) Personally I carry a drivers license, BCID (identical to the first but it says NOT A DRIVERS LICENSE on the back), credit card, health card, and a student ID which I never use, nor accept for ID.
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May 3, 2013 21:16
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JawKnee posted:Yep, valid pieces. Not necessarily photoid though, you only really need one, or maaaaaybe 2 of those max. Basically when I ask for cards I'm looking for a photo id and something else with your name on it (credit card or something) I've had it a couple of times where they aren't convinced by my picture (which is less than 2 years old) but let me in after taking a look at some other poo poo in my wallet. I don't mind really, it's just if they ask for another photo ID (happened to me like once) that's a little much.
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May 3, 2013 23:12
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In my neck of the woods (Norway), fake ID's are hard to spot. Driver's licenses are hard to fake; they're EU-standard CC-sized plastic, but hologrammed and watermarked and if you can't feel some kind of texture they're likely printed on a commercial printer. Passports now are the same a book with several pages but a contoured, watermarked plastic insert. I don't know how good the Chinese fake these yet, but seeing a passport as an ID here is rare anyways. However, the most common form of ID here is the ATM/VISA/MasterCard which has ID on the back. Officially recognised identification. In these cases (few cards have holograms, fewer have texture, and it's common to borrow your older sister's card) you have to rely on your brain's facial recognition or just the apperance and behaviour of the girls (I say girls because it's rare to have guys trying to enter with fake ID's, whyever that is). I've carded and denied 25-30-year-olds because I was in doubt and they couldn't show me a good ID. It's 18 for anything below 22% by vol., and 20 for everything else If you come to a place that serves booze, I better be sure you're 20 or over. The best is to just go by the general "look" and apparent age. If in doubt, and the patron can't supply an ID, and nobody you trust can vouch for the person's age; no dice. Better to be a serious, strict, though hated bartender than to be the one that made your place lose their license. I've denied more 25-year-olds without available or doubtful ID than I can count. e: Structure. F4rt5 fucked around with this message at 05:49 on May 4, 2013 |
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May 4, 2013 05:33
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JazzmasterCurious posted:The best is to just go by the general "look" and apparent age. If in doubt, and the patron can't supply an ID, and nobody you trust can vouch for the person's age; no dice. Better to be a serious, strict, though hated bartender than to be the one that made your place lose their license. I've denied more 25-year-olds without available or doubtful ID than I can count. Agreed on the strict point, but disagreed (mostly) on the trust point. Where I'm at, ownership and indeed the local PD, should they ever want to arrange a bust/sting, would have a really hard time swallowing the trusted person vouching for someone's age treatment. The only people I will EVER look at for a confirmation that someone is of age without checking myself would be my doorman or my fellow bartenders, because the operating logic there is that they've already checked. And if on any given particular night that person were to walk in, without an ID, but we all knew he/she were of age (could be a centenarian), and a sting were to go down, and that person couldn't produce an ID to the cops when they asked, the bar would be footing the bill, and the bartender that served him/her would be out of a job, no doubt. Sucks rear end but so does this balancing act dog-and-pony show circus of a district in which to try to make a living off serving the last legal drug.
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May 5, 2013 04:04
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FaceEater posted:And if on any given particular night that person were to walk in, without an ID, but we all knew he/she were of age (could be a centenarian), and a sting were to go down, and that person couldn't produce an ID to the cops when they asked, the bar would be footing the bill That's a ridiculous law. Here in the UK someone looking in their mid 20s is an excuse for serving them. Stings always use kids that look too young so the police can't be accused of setting them up, and even the strictest places use "challenge 25" where anyone who looks under 25 is IDd. Most are challenge 21.
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May 5, 2013 13:05
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Don't you only have to card in a liquor store if the person looks under 40? Is that not the case in a bar? Is any reasonable person going to look at a 60 year old person and think they might not be old enough to drink? Or does it have to do with endorsements on the license? I know here in Minnesota they'll check the back of the license to look for something that says the license holder isn't allowed to drink (maybe you get that after a drunk driving conviction?)
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May 5, 2013 20:08
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From what I remember, in Australia the law states that to set foot onto licensed premises, you have to be in possession of govt issued photo ID. When you get to a certain point, it's less about underage drinking and more about being able to identify someone if poo poo happens but it's less of a big deal. In the 90 year old guy situation, there's probably about as much chance of him being involved in an incident as there is that he's drinking underage, so even though technically against the law, no one is ever going to write you up for it. I hate smug shitheads who take the letter of the law literally and completely ignore what the spirit of the law is and why it was made. Sure you could fine a bar and make a guy unemployed but you'd have to be some sort of monumental shithead to pull that for not carding a geriatric and breaking a law designed to prevent underage drinking.
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May 5, 2013 21:06
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FISHMANPET posted:Don't you only have to card in a liquor store if the person looks under 40? Is that not the case in a bar? Is any reasonable person going to look at a 60 year old person and think they might not be old enough to drink? It is not the case in a bar, at least here in Chicago. The law is something akin to (paraphrasing) having to have a valid ID on premises to drink in a bar. I know nothing about endorsements here having much to do with it. It is totally unreasonable and is a ridiculous oval office of a law to have to actually enforce. When I look at a customer and know he or she is clearly 40-plus but still have to ask he/she to produce photo identification of that fact, it sucks. But it's the law, and is enforced to make this broke rear end city their bits of money. The bar across the street got popped for $500 and a strike against their license for serving an obviously of-age individual (looked 45, graying, weathered looking dude) who was a vice cop without asking him for an ID. Went in, asked for a beer (it's always a Miller Lite) on a nice slow afternoon shift, and then bang, pulled out his ID, told the bartender that had served him to go pull the marked $20 back out of the register, and issued a citation. Yes, the burden of diligence in carding everyone is on the bartender, and no it is not fair. It sucks working under a law that's enforced in that manner. The spirit of the law doesn't matter, it seems, when the city is broke. tl;dr: don't go getting mad when you're an old fart getting carded; your bartender is just doing his/her job, and risks losing that job if he/she doesn't do it every time. Ally McBeal Wiki fucked around with this message at 23:39 on May 5, 2013 |
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May 5, 2013 23:37
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FaceEater posted:It is not the case in a bar, at least here in Chicago. The law is something akin to (paraphrasing) having to have a valid ID on premises to drink in a bar. I know nothing about endorsements here having much to do with it. The really bizarre thing is that you have to make sure everyone has ID on them at any time they're in the bar. I always have my ID in my wallet anyway, but it would suck if I had to produce it for the bartenders (for both me and the bartender) every time I went to have a pint at the local. EDIT: And between government/corporate policy, I have no doubt it gets that ridiculous. London Drugs once carded my 60-year-old aunt when she was buying cigarettes.
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May 5, 2013 23:53
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I got carded trying to see an R-Rated movie the other day
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May 6, 2013 16:34
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Is there any respect for bartenders who work private clubs and catering? I've always heard of some dismissal of those who work country/city clubs or private catering, but of course I haven't noticed any since getting the gently caress out of cash houses and dive bars. It's like being put out to pasture.
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May 7, 2013 02:24
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pokchu posted:Is there any respect for bartenders who work private clubs and catering? I've always heard of some dismissal of those who work country/city clubs or private catering, but of course I haven't noticed any since getting the gently caress out of cash houses and dive bars. It's like being put out to pasture. Yes, there is respect. But it depends on the bartender. And the bartender that's talking about that bartender. When I was coming up in a high volume college bar, the guys above me talked all sorts of poo poo on the guys working those kinds of gigs. "They didn't pay their dues busting their asses as barbacks, they've got no idea what it's like being in the weeds, no understanding of speed and efficiency, and they can't pour anything that isn't on their precious menu or isn't a two part mixed drink." Years later I can understand that view and maybe see some truth in it if the bartender working those gigs has only ever worked in that environment and never actually worked in a bar. But. Come to find out, a lot of the guys working those gigs are veteran bartenders. Guys who learned the trade, put in their time, and realized that there is a gently caress ton of money to be made doing that kind of bartending. I know guys that work 4-6 nights a month and walk with more in tips than I do putting in 40 hours every week at my bar. I'll talk some poo poo on them when I see them, about how they aren't in the trenches like the rest of us "real bartenders" but it's mostly just for show and my ego. Bartenders that figured out a way to make bank without having to deal with all the other bullshit, they've got my respect and my envy. However, "bartenders" that have only ever worked catering and country clubs? They still don't know poo poo from apple crisp.
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May 7, 2013 09:50
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Dirnok posted:Yes, there is respect. But it depends on the bartender. And the bartender that's talking about that bartender. I think the biggest reason they catch poo poo is that they're not really part of the "bartending scene" - if you believe it exists. When I was bartending, and most of my friends were, I would visit them at their bars on my nights off. That's hard to do with a catering bartender, so it puts up a bit of a social barrier. Like Dirnok said, for some, this means that catering bartenders aren't real bartenders, for most of us it just meant they worked more sporadically and had a less stable income - but not necessarily lower.
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May 7, 2013 10:49
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FaceEater posted:We tend to see a good number of people trying to get in with papers that are similar to or supposedly in lieu of their ID. People that supposedly got their licenses taken away for a ticket or lost them or somesuch. Those people don't get let in, and while I understand some court in some other state might've given it to you, I don't know what a ticket from Idaho actually looks like, so, sorry. I used to have to bring my passport out with me when I went clubbing in Aberdeen at 19. Sainsburys and Morrisons don't accept foreign ID cards, and some of the bouncers wouldn't either. Nearly lost the drat thing once in Exodus, some guy found me outside smoking and handed me the passport, he'd picked it up off the dance floor. It is entirely believable that an Irish person would try to keep from losing their passport.
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May 7, 2013 12:52
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On the subject of catching underage drinkers, Wisconsin is passing legislature to hold the drinkers themselves financially liable not only for the fees incurred for the violation, but subject to civil court and a $1000 fine to be paid to the bar directly. http://fox6now.com/2013/05/05/bill-allowing-bars-to-sue-underage-drinkers-passes-assembly-committee/ quote:Rep. JoCasta Zamarripa supports a bi-partisan bill that would detour minors from drinking. Zamarripa says if caught, an underage drinker faces a police citation costing between $200 to $500.
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May 7, 2013 23:00
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Dirnok posted:Yes, there is respect. But it depends on the bartender. And the bartender that's talking about that bartender. I can understand that. I've been doing the private scene for roughly nine years now, and it's such a huge change that I don't think I could go back to a high volume college bar (which is where I started, that and gay bars). The knowledge required is definitely different, as well. Instead of a catalog of drinks, I probably only get thirty or so with any regularity, but need a much higher working knowledge of the ins-and-outs of wine and whisk(e)y. It might not have the absolute highs as standard bartending, but there's something to be said about having health insurance, vacation/pto, and the ability have a life (or in my case, wife) outside of work.
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May 8, 2013 03:05
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Coohoolin posted:I used to have to bring my passport out with me when I went clubbing in Aberdeen at 19. Sainsburys and Morrisons don't accept foreign ID cards, and some of the bouncers wouldn't either. Nearly lost the drat thing once in Exodus, some guy found me outside smoking and handed me the passport, he'd picked it up off the dance floor. It is entirely believable that an Irish person would try to keep from losing their passport. To clarify my initial "Ha!" comment: My exposure to bars and bartending has been in locations where it's mostly unthinkable that someone would honestly attempt something like that. State-issued photo identification or a valid international passport has to be presented to be granted admission, end of story, in the places that I've worked. I do wholly understand the desire to not lose such a crucial piece of information. Thus I found the substitution of a badly photocopied sheet of white printer paper quite humorous. Catering: I did that scene for a little bit concurrent with a stint at a college bar, and I think I liked it better. I look back on it much more fondly for both the tips and the stability it granted.
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May 8, 2013 05:21
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pokchu posted:I can understand that. I've been doing the private scene for roughly nine years now, and it's such a huge change that I don't think I could go back to a high volume college bar (which is where I started, that and gay bars). The knowledge required is definitely different, as well. Instead of a catalog of drinks, I probably only get thirty or so with any regularity, but need a much higher working knowledge of the ins-and-outs of wine and whisk(e)y. It might not have the absolute highs as standard bartending, but there's something to be said about having health insurance, vacation/pto, and the ability have a life (or in my case, wife) outside of work. You are in a good place, man. Don't let anyone tell you different. You've got what all of us wish we had, seriously. Health insurance? I can get it on my own or through the USBG (bartending guild) and that means expensive or dog poo poo. Vacation? Ha! Paid time off? As many ha's as a man could type. Life outside of work, well gently caress, that's just an infinite number of ha's. I live with my old lady, we have one night out of the week that we can actually do anything together. The rest of the nights she is either in bed asleep or about to go to bed when I get home. I'd take where you are sitting over where I'm at in less than a loving heart beat. gently caress respect, gently caress what other bartenders think. We all love this life, we love the sub-culture, we love walking into a place and bartenders knowing who we are and treating us accordingly. But that only goes so far and it's only worth so much.
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May 8, 2013 09:26
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Dirnok posted:You are in a good place, man. Don't let anyone tell you different. You've got what all of us wish we had, seriously. A friend is opening a USBG chapter where I'm at. What's the ins and outs of it? Does it have any value, or is it more of an "Absolut presents: A Social Club"?
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May 8, 2013 13:19
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I love my catering bartending thing. I know I've got it good working class reunions. And weddings. Bridesmaids  Plus, a greater connection felt when watching Party Down.
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May 8, 2013 18:49
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For a while I soley did private events, but after 2008, those willing simply to pay for liquor bars, much less bartenders, became much rarer. I miss those days.
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May 8, 2013 23:11
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doginapot posted:A friend is opening a USBG chapter where I'm at. What's the ins and outs of it? Does it have any value, or is it more of an "Absolut presents: A Social Club"? 50/50 depending on your crowd. Joining the USBG kick started my career because I met the right people. But that's NYC. still, $100/yr is nothing compared to national connections. PM me if you want to get more specific.
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May 9, 2013 01:05
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Do any of you tend bar in Chicago? If you, you might be interested in my post in another thread: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3032498&pagenumber=439&perpage=40#post415283833
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May 9, 2013 17:19
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Knockknees posted:Do any of you tend bar in Chicago? If you, you might be interested in my post in another thread: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3032498&pagenumber=439&perpage=40#post415283833 Emailed.
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May 9, 2013 20:47
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Not scooping ice with glassware is obvious. But don't Boston shakers pose the same danger, even if the glass chipping is less likely?
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May 9, 2013 23:56
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door Door door posted:Not scooping ice with glassware is obvious. But don't Boston shakers pose the same danger, even if the glass chipping is less likely? How are you going to chip a metal tin? Or am I misreading this? The main argument against scooping with your tin is sanitary reasons, and frankly it happens in almost every super high volume bar I've ever been in. Scooping with the glass is a major no-no, though, there is no excuse for that.
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May 10, 2013 01:08
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