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iForge posted:I am really surprised that Absentmindedwelder isn't getting more responses on here from his lathe updates. I can't be the only one that cares about this restoration, and I don't post my comments because I talk to him via phone/text/in person atleast once a day. I've been watching it. It's a drat good restoration job. The proof is in the pudding though, Can it hold a tolerance when it's rebuilt, and will it repeat? I've always wanted my own machine hobby-shop and I'm going to build it by restoring old machines so it's super interesting to see it done to a nice piece of equipment.
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May 5, 2013 17:02
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I'm makin a big ol' repousse brass medallion/pendant for a dude- 5, 6 inches across- and it's becoming obvious to me that the brass I'm using is too thin to stand on its own. I'm gonna need to solder a backplate on, which I've never done for something so large and complex in form (it ain't just round, it's a stylized W [the Wu-Tang Clan logo, natch]). What's a good way to go about A) filing or sanding the edges good and flat/even and B) soldering the backplate on? For the first I'm thinkin' either stapling a full sheet of sandpaper onto a nice flat board, maybe a sheet of particleboard or something else real smooth, or doing it the slow way by eye, filing and placing on a flat surface to check, file, check, file, check, accidentally overfile, somehow, despite not using power tools and hurling the thing through the wall, etc (it's a process, I find). For the second my intuition is to cut the medallion out of the backing sheet, file/sand flat, scribe the outline of the front plate onto the backing plate, heat backing plate from below while using silver solder to 'trace' outline, file deposited solder flat, re-align front plate on back plate, flux, heat until solder flows, cut entire assembly free. Those sound like reasonable approaches? e: OH, also, annealing brass sheet by hand, wherein it's ridiculously easy to burn the zinc out of the metal. What's a good way to prevent this aside from not getting too ambitious with the annealing? I did some test pieces treated with boric acid/wood alcohol, my usual firescale preventer, and it seems to prevent firescale but not zinc burn-out. I heard something about soot working to prevent the zinc in brass burning up- you know, run a pure-acetylene flame over the surface before turning the oxygen on and annealing it properly. Would that work?
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May 6, 2013 01:03
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Hey guys, long time no post. I'm finally moving up to more advanced projects, and I just quenched my current piece in oil. My question is how many heats do I need to properly temper the blade? Also, i was just going to use my oven, is that acceptable?
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May 6, 2013 04:45
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You need to reheat once to change martensite to banite or spherodize the martensite and no, your oven would need to get above 600*F. What alloy steel are you using? Look up how to read a TTT diagram and the look up a TTT diagram for that steel.
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May 6, 2013 05:30
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iForge posted:I am really surprised that Absentmindedwelder isn't getting more responses on here from his lathe updates. I can't be the only one that cares about this restoration, and I don't post my comments because I talk to him via phone/text/in person atleast once a day. I'm enjoying the hell out of all his posts, I just don't have much to say because he's doing such an amazing job of it. I mirror your sentiments though!
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May 6, 2013 06:27
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areyoucontagious posted:Hey guys, long time no post. I'm finally moving up to more advanced projects, and I just quenched my current piece in oil. My question is how many heats do I need to properly temper the blade? Also, i was just going to use my oven, is that acceptable? It depends on the alloy and more importantly, on the application. You heat and quench to harden, initially; to temper, you heat only to the temper temperature you want, and then quench. What temper you're looking for depends on how hard you want your piece to be. For example, an axe blade should be softer & tougher, but a kitchen knife should be harder (but more brittle). e. 500 degrees F will put a light temper onto ordinary carbon steel. It will still be very hard, but not glass-hard. Some ovens can do hotter, such as on a self-cleaning cycle.
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May 6, 2013 08:19
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Ambrose Burnside posted:
Turn the lights out where you are working and heat the brass until it glows a dull cherry. Then it is annealed. I have never heard of burning zinc out when annealing brass. I have annealed a bunch of brass trumpet bells in the last few years and never had a problem.
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May 6, 2013 11:17
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Thanks everyone for the encouragement  I got the lathe on it's feet and levelled out. The big level is an Empire rated accurate for 0.0005" over 1". The one sitting on top is an old machinist's level a buddy let me borrow. Sure enough that machinist’s level is more sensitive. I have no idea how these stainless steel with rubber bottom feed will work over time. The floor is very uneven. If I have problems I'll pour a concrete pad.  I got all the small handles and dials polished up. Naval jelly and the tumbler weren't doing jack for these. They were just so bad I decided to take them to a wire wheel in my bench grinder and remove everything. I then used steel wool to smooth up the wire marks. Then they sat in some crushed walnut hulls with Brasso for a few hours followed by corn cobs with Brasso. When I bought this tumbler for reloading ammunition, I never thought I would use it for small parts. I got the idea to re-purpose this device from some forums somewhere on the internet. After I pulled them out I used Never Dull on them. I'm new to Never Dull, just heard about it this weekend. Seems like drat good stuff. Some of the larger parts will have to get hand polished... might be a good time killer if I have any slow nights at work this week.  The tailstock has been disassembled. The base and hand wheel were soaking last night in the Citristip and look good. The tailstock has a few tricky areas and will probably need a couple more applications. 
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May 6, 2013 16:02
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Brekelefuw posted:Turn the lights out where you are working and heat the brass until it glows a dull cherry. Then it is annealed. I have never heard of burning zinc out when annealing brass. I have annealed a bunch of brass trumpet bells in the last few years and never had a problem. I'm probably just being too ambitious and getting it too hot, then. I usually go up to around cherry red, but definitely not in the dark. The flame flashes red if you burn the zinc (happens a lot around edges/ corners) and then you end up with mostly copper in those areas if the sheet's thin enough.
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May 6, 2013 16:09
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I'm slowly accumulating things for my garage work shop. So far have the welder, drill press from the 50's (need to clean and paint) and I think a band saw will be the next thing I pick up. I plan on doing mostly metal work with 1/4" thick or less average but some 1/2" steel tubing and plate. Would a "regular" stand up band saw be suitable with the correct metal blade and how much power or what size would be best? Otherwise I've seen a few horizontal metal saws but it seems like they wouldn't be as handy for miscellaneous jobs. I've also looked at a hand held (http://www.amazon.com/DEWALT-DWM120K-5-Inch-Deep-Portable/dp/B001W0ZIK4) and building a mount for it with a table but that doesn't seem like a great option. Or a chop saw which works good but isn't as flexible.
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May 6, 2013 19:34
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You would use a horizontal cutting band saw for cutting stuff like round, angle iron, or pipe to an accurate 90 degree angle. The porta-band get used on the same stuff when it can't be put in a horizontal saw. The vertical band saw would be used more for cutting stuff like small pieces of plate. That being said, when I'm cutting plate, I usually just grab the torch. If I were worried about warpage at all, which is rare, then I'd use my milling machine to make the cut, (The milling machine project comes after the lathe is finished. Stay tuned.) I'd like to see pics of your drill press.
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May 6, 2013 19:40
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NitroSpazzz posted:I'm slowly accumulating things for my garage work shop. So far have the welder, drill press from the 50's (need to clean and paint) and I think a band saw will be the next thing I pick up. I plan on doing mostly metal work with 1/4" thick or less average but some 1/2" steel tubing and plate. I have a Porter-Cable Porta-band which is basically like that DeWalt (except it's the brand for portable bandsaws). I find it to be a useful and versatile tool for metal cutting, but it can be difficult to do a really accurate cut obviously since it's a handheld tool. A standing bandsaw is good for accurate cuts, but it can be difficult to manipulate a large piece to get the angle you want (for example if you're trying to slice a 4" diameter pipe at a 45 degree angle). A well-equipped shop would want both, as well as a chop saw. Exactly which to get first is going to depend on what kinds of projects you're doing. I might favor the standing bandsaw if you also work in wood, since they're fantastic for wood projects and you'd only need to swap out the blade. Check the width of the jaw for any band saw you buy and make sure it's wide enough for the pieces you'll be working, though. There's also the non-portable metal-cutting bandsaws like this one. This is ideal for repeated accurate cuts of metal stock of any length. It's a dedicated tool, though, and not something I'd buy for a home shop unless I was doing something that demanded thousands of cuts a year. I've operated a couple when I was working at The Crucible in Oakland, though, and they're really nice for a smooth accurate cut. Both of the ones I used were like 30+ years old, pretty simple affairs, so maybe if you can find an old used one it'd work for you. Another advantage these saws have over the handheld ones is that they're (usually?) equipped with a coolant/lube feed so you can continuously run fluid over the cut. This means much better longevity of the blade, a smoother cut, no accidental annealing of the metal at the cut, etc. You don't generally get that with standing bandsaws and I've yet to see a portable bandsaw that had a liquid feed (and it'd be pretty messy I imagine). As for exactly what standing bandsaw to get, how much power, etc. I just don't know. Hopefully someone else can chime in. I want one but don't have room in my garage for standing tools (I have to share my space with my wife's ceramic studio). e. If you've got the bucks, here's a horizontal bandsaw that also converts to a standing vertical bandsaw. Looks pretty sweet but there's no brand name (??) and I have no idea about quality. There are several others though. e2. Or maybe a desktop saw like this one? Urgh look at all these fun looking tooooools Leperflesh fucked around with this message at 19:55 on May 6, 2013 |
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May 6, 2013 19:49
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I wouldn't say you want the horizontal saw just for production work. If you want an accurate 90 degree cut, on any steel "shape" of any thing more then a couple feet long, it's really the only tool for the job, and still makes the tool worthwhile even if it doesn't see use often. The chop saw will get you a good 90 degrees, but because it's an abrasive and not a saw, it's difficult to get an accurate length of cut without trail and error. Where as a band saw blade you can accurately figure out the kerf. Also the chop saw will heat your metal up changing temper. That's not a big deal if you are cutting angle iron to be welded and a 1/16" gap can be filled in easy enough. Like Leperfish said, it's not a matter of which saw I want, just which one you get first. Note: "Shapes" refers to stuff like angle iron, pipe, square tubing, round, etc. AbsentMindedWelder fucked around with this message at 21:29 on May 6, 2013 |
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May 6, 2013 20:01
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If I was going to have someone weld up some 1" square aluminum tube (probably 1/8" walls) into a frame, and I was going to pre-cut everything so it was more or less all ready to go, what would generally be the preferred joining at the corners, for both ease for the welder, and strength for the frame? Just butting the end up like on the left, or a 45° miter like on the right? The final product would be a frame like below, about 20"x12". I'd have a few mounting holes already drilled in the pieces so there wouldn't be any issues with creating a seal if the miter was the preferred choice.  So I'd end up with all four corners like the leftmost corners in that frame and everything closed up (save the mounting holes), or the rightmost corners in the frame, with open tubes on the ends.
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May 6, 2013 20:02
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If you don't care about having open ends of the square tubing there, just leave it as a 90 degree butt... but if you don't want the open tubes, then go with the mitered. Welding is about the same for either one, the difference is in the fabrication and fit up.
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May 6, 2013 20:10
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Cool, thanks. If I went with the miter, what's the needed tolerance? I mean, I assume "as well-fit as possible" but what's the minimum (or, I suppose, maximum)? I'd like to have everything basically ready to go so that the welder doesn't have to do any more work than necessary.
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May 6, 2013 20:38
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With most welded fabrications 1/16" - 1/8" is considered acceptable tolerance. If the welder has to bridge more of a gap then that, it's possible, but they wont be happy. Considering you are working with 1/8" metal, i'd try to stay closer to 1/16" tolerance for being slightly undersized. 1/8" wall I would not worry about making any bevels... 1/8" has thin enough walls that getting full penetration won't be an issue.
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May 6, 2013 20:59
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I expect that 1/16" will be pretty drat easy in this case, it's not like it's a very large and complicated thing. Should be a breeze. Now I just need to find someone that can weld it up for me. 
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May 6, 2013 21:02
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Thanks for the saw info. For my use it sounds like I'll keep checking craigslist for a horizontal saw for a majority of the cuts and a smaller band saw for angles and small stuff. I'd love to find a adjustable angle horizontal like my high school had.AbsentMindedWelder posted:my milling machine, lathe I look forward to the milling machine project, the lathe is turning out amazing. I missed out on a nice milling machine right after I bought my house last year and didn't have any spare money to play with. My drill press (sorry for the blurry phone camera pics)   really need to clean the garage
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May 6, 2013 21:13
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Hey, your drill press matches my jointer   
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May 6, 2013 21:21
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I'd much prefer a mitered edge for what it's worth, just because the mating open edge would require a small amount of attention to not overheat and pull back. For the bandsaw: the ubiquitous 4x6 horizontal/vertical is the most versatile metal shaping tool I use, I literally couldn't go a day without one. I have a 7x12 with a bad gearbox that I'm probably not going to bother fixing anytime soon, because there is very little it does better than the smaller version, and the smaller, thinner blades are far better for anything that's not a straight line. The main distinction between a strictly upright and the hori-capable models is that the blade is twisted ~45 degrees to the plane of the pulleys, allowing an arbitrary length of material to be cut, as opposed to a standard upright, where you are limited to the depth of the throat.
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May 6, 2013 21:53
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I'm lookin' at this 1/4" aluminium plate I have to saw up, you know, by hand, with a hacksaw, and I'm getting real sad that I haven't invested in a bandsaw yet. Maybe I could do a faster job with a chisel n hammer...
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May 6, 2013 23:45
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People underestimate the small power hacksaw. Industrial ones are obviously amazing, but well out of reach for most garage metalworkers. This, on the other hand... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYOOmRlxwV0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5Tu_zoO828
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May 7, 2013 00:04
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sixide posted:People underestimate the small power hacksaw. Industrial ones are obviously amazing, but well out of reach for most garage metalworkers. I did not know these existed, off to craigslist and another cool toy added to the list.
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May 7, 2013 01:04
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Power hacksaws are awesome. They are known for making very smooth cuts, well, that's what I was told anyway.
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May 7, 2013 01:05
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I missed out on getting a nearly unused big vintage Perkins power hacksaw from a closing veterans hospital (they had a giant maintenance department, ~25 buildings, etc. Foreclosed). It's one of the great tragedies of my life, they only wanted $50 for it. 18" blades, giant height capacity, coolant tank, probably weighed 900 lbs. e: and yeah, power hacksaws are sort of hard to find, but they cut very well. Better than the cheap chinese horizontal bandsaws. It's sort of a crapshoot on good old power hacksaw vs quality old horizontal bandsaw (like a Wellsaw). Both great ways to go. ee: that said, don't overlook Portabands. They're fantastic as well. Hypnolobster fucked around with this message at 01:43 on May 7, 2013 |
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May 7, 2013 01:39
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Went and annealed my brass sheet- curled up all rude on me as I went, and my attempts to flatten it between two planks didn't work because it's still got too much spring in it to cooperate (it's definitely only kinda-sorta annealed but I didn't wanna push my luck), and its definitely kinda warped n weird. Now I remember why I got all cranky with cartridge brass the last time I farted around with it. I miss jeweller's brass, it's got less than half the zinc and is so much more cooperative for cold-forming, but good luck sourcing it outside of paying $30 a square foot at the jeweller's supply (which, if I run into too many problems, I might give up and do, comes pre-annealed and everything, it's worth it for a paid commission anyways)
Ambrose Burnside fucked around with this message at 05:08 on May 7, 2013 |
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May 7, 2013 03:17
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Ambrose Burnside posted:I'm lookin' at this 1/4" aluminium plate I have to saw up, you know, by hand, with a hacksaw, and I'm getting real sad that I haven't invested in a bandsaw yet. I had to rough out the blade for my bench shear apprentice project with a hacksaw from 1/8" A2 stock, and they only gave us 18TPI blades  .It's all finished now, I need to get some pics of that thing up.
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May 7, 2013 04:04
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The Proc, So what were the dimensions of that blade, and how long did it take you to do?
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May 7, 2013 04:44
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Ambrose Burnside posted:Went and annealed my brass sheet- curled up all rude on me as I went, and my attempts to flatten it between two planks didn't work because it's still got too much spring in it to cooperate (it's definitely only kinda-sorta annealed but I didn't wanna push my luck), and its definitely kinda warped n weird. Now I remember why I got all cranky with cartridge brass the last time I farted around with it. I miss jeweller's brass, it's got less than half the zinc and is so much more cooperative for cold-forming, but good luck sourcing it outside of paying $30 a square foot at the jeweller's supply (which, if I run into too many problems, I might give up and do, comes pre-annealed and everything, it's worth it for a paid commission anyways) What if you press the piece between two metal plates and anneal it in situ? The annealing process ought to relieve any plastic stresses and the brass should form to the shape of the plates. But just a warning; all my knowledge is theoretical (I do a lot of material science stuff as part of my mech eng degree) so by no means should you take my word as gospel. Kim Jong ill fucked around with this message at 14:41 on May 7, 2013 |
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May 7, 2013 14:30
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I've been shopping around for supplies to make a propane forge. I intend to make the Reil burner, and use an old oxygen tank with the ends opened up for the body of the forge, obviously lined with ceramic wool and a layer or two of ceramic paste. My question is, do any of you know the best place to get ceramic wool or paste? That poo poo can be expensive, and I need to keep costs as low as possible. Best price I can see on the ceramic paste is ~$160 per 1/2gal.
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May 7, 2013 14:52
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Where do you live? I've purchased ceramic wool locally at good prices. I've dealt with http://www.hwr.com/EEC/Incineration/SalesOffices.asp who has an office near me. Also check with any boiler makers near you. There are other trades that use ceramic wool, but I can't think of them right now.
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May 7, 2013 15:58
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Kim Jong ill posted:What if you press the piece between two metal plates and anneal it in situ? The annealing process ought to relieve any plastic stresses and the brass should form to the shape of the plates. But just a warning; all my knowledge is theoretical (I do a lot of material science stuff as part of my mech eng degree) so by no means should you take my word as gospel. There's basically no chance that all the torches and propane bottles I could round up would be enough to get both the sheet and the pressing plates up to a dull glow and I don't have a forge large enough to accomodate the sheet at the moment. I think I'm just gonna give it the rubber mallet over the anvil and get it to an approximation of of flat, enough that I can scribe the pattern to be raised without too much trouble, and limp along from there. Repousse is very forgiving in that respect because I'll be able to bring the actual raised/chased form down to close-to-even near the end by hammering all along the borders on the anvil.
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May 7, 2013 16:04
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AbsentMindedWelder posted:Where do you live? I've purchased ceramic wool locally at good prices. I've dealt with http://www.hwr.com/EEC/Incineration/SalesOffices.asp who has an office near me. I'm in Atlanta, so it looks like there's a sales office not too far from me. Their website isn't too friendly though. Any product I click on takes me to a page telling me I don't have the authority to see it.
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May 7, 2013 16:21
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Backyard Blacksmith posted:I've been shopping around for supplies to make a propane forge. I intend to make the Reil burner, and use an old oxygen tank with the ends opened up for the body of the forge, obviously lined with ceramic wool and a layer or two of ceramic paste. Why not use refractory cement that you can buy locally?
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May 7, 2013 16:26
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Lord Gaga posted:Why not use refractory cement that you can buy locally? Because I was not aware it existed.  What would be the pros/cons of using solid refractory cement in a steel sleeve, versus using Ceramic wool, with a ceramic paste liner in a steel sleeve? Should I still do a firebrick bottom if I go for the refractory cement?
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May 7, 2013 16:31
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gently caress the hand polishing. At a friend's suggestion I went out and got the 6" Harbor Freight Bench Buffer. I also picked up their "Green" polishing stick. It worked beautifully. I got the apron traverse hand wheel polished up nice, starting with the coarse wheel, followed by the fine wheel, and then a good rub down with Never Dull and a rag. I'm starting to dig this Never Dull, leaves a really nice sexy surface that you just want to feel and has a great sheen.   Backyard Blacksmith posted:What would be the pros/cons of using solid refractory cement in a steel sleeve, versus using Ceramic wool, with a ceramic paste liner in a steel sleeve? Backyard Blacksmith posted:Should I still do a firebrick bottom if I go for the refractory cement? AbsentMindedWelder fucked around with this message at 17:08 on May 7, 2013 |
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May 7, 2013 17:02
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AbsentMindedWelder posted:
Okay, I was being dumb and thought people meant to substitute refractory cement for ceramic wool/paste, rather than using it as a replacement for just the ceramic paste. I'll definitely look into it, as it does seem cheaper, and ceramic wool isn't actually that expensive, considering I'm not going to be using all that much.
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May 7, 2013 17:57
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I bought two tubs of it of an I cant remember size online at ace hardware for $40 that they shipped to the store for free which was awesome cause it was heavy.
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May 7, 2013 18:06
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Using nothing but castable refractory is not necessarily a bad idea. There are both insulating and non-insulating castable. Many people make crucible furnaces using nothing but castable, sometimes all non-insulating, that's fine, especially say your burner is using waste motor oil, and you are only dealing with aluminium or maybe bronze, and have plenty of time to let it sit there and soak. Meanwhile the outside of the furnace will be very hot. I'm rambling but long story short people use a combination of insulating or non-insulating fire brick, insulating or non-insulating castable, ceramic wool, paint on ceramic coatings such as ITC-100, for both furnaces and forges. For the typical backyard blacksmith running a propane reil burner in a small to medium forge, using two 1" layers of ceramic wool with several coats of ITC-100 tends to work very well. This won't last forever, especially if you do lots of forge welding, but it's easy to put together and you'll get many years out of it. If you were building a big to huge forge, or any size furnace then I'd start considering ceramic wool with a good 3k degree F + castable about 1/2" thick, coated with ITC-100.
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May 7, 2013 18:07
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