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Christ that sounds a load of shite. I'm so glad that my local referee coordinator is a nice guy (so far anyway). Side note - I received guidance today to convert any freekick within 15 yards of the box to a ceremonial one. (This was at a level 1 course for newbie refs FWIW.) Is that reasonable guidance for new refs? I've been asking attackers if they want to take it quickly and every one has asked me to push the wall back. On a related note, do you guys *ever* card up for failure to respect the distance? I've already been tempted to in two different respects - defenders lining up three yards away from the ball, and defenders rushing out of the wall early. e: new page, so have a pic of Collina. If I could deathstare even a tenth as well as he could I'd have an easy life as a ref.  e2: Not saying that I think refs should reign by terror (and I certainly don't), but if the players start acting up they're going to learn who's boss. Actually there's a lot of parallels between refereeing and parenting now that I think about it ... Thel fucked around with this message at 10:33 on Apr 28, 2013 |
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Apr 28, 2013 10:28
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Just found this thread. Trin name-checked me earlier. I haven't been as active on the forums as previously. Although currently a level 5 ('Senior county referee') here in the UK, I have just been invited to level 4 by The FA. I just need to pass the fitness test in the summer, which is fine as I've done it previous years 'for fun'. It's the Cooper Test, and I will need to run 2.6 km in 12 minutes. Level 4 will mean that I will be refereeing at supply league level, and running the line on contributory league games. These are pretty much where the semi-pro stuff is starting to happen, crowds are routinely paying to get in, and will be wearing replica kits! I will be routinely working in teams of three. I'm really excited about it, and I've certainly worked hard over the previous season to get to this point. Amongst other requirements, I needed to score an average of 75+ on five assessments. I don't know what my club marks have been like yet, as those can't be released until the season is over. However, I've been appointed to five cup finals this season which is a strong indication that things have gone well. I'm now being appointed some preparatory games for next season. E.g. on Tuesday I've got a 2nd v 3rd potential promotion decider. If anyone has any questions about refereeing, particularly at the levels I'm working at, I'm more than happy to answer. I'm also a qualified FA mentor and FA referee assessor. For me, refereeing is obviously about the Laws (well, duh) but _empathy_ and communication are very, very key to managing a game. I've also got extensive experience with working in teams of referees and how to make that work well! Mewcenary fucked around with this message at 17:21 on Apr 28, 2013 |
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Apr 28, 2013 17:17
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Thel posted:Side note - I received guidance today to convert any freekick within 15 yards of the box to a ceremonial one. (This was at a level 1 course for newbie refs FWIW.) Is that reasonable guidance for new refs? I've been asking attackers if they want to take it quickly and every one has asked me to push the wall back. In general, yes, if a FK is within shooting range, I'll convert it to a ceremonial. It's expected and remember a key mantra of refereeing, and one that forms part of my pre-match briefings, is 'No surprises' ! However, I would never ask a team if they want to take it quickly. If they want to take it quickly, then they should do so! If I'm not ready for whatever reason (typically because I need to talk to / caution a player) then I will just pull it back, so nothing is lost there. Also, once I'm on the scene, if a player THEN asks to take it quickly, I'll generally say no: It's too late: The wall is already starting to form, and nobody is expecting a sudden kick. I'm also not in the best position should something happen in the penalty area, and "Sorry lads, I wasn't ready" isn't going to go down well if I've missed a stonewall penalty claim. If it is ceremonial, then there is no drama with the defenders lining up too close: I'll just move them back. However, I will always tell them not to rush forward or it's a caution, and in particular to watch their hands ("Look at where you are" helps sell that if they are in the penalty area).
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Apr 28, 2013 17:27
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Mewcenary posted:Just found this thread. Trin name-checked me earlier. I haven't been as active on the forums as previously. Awesome add to this thread, and my question, maybe obviously, is about how you went from scratch to level 4 - I imagine you had to have dealt with some of the internal workings of the FA, so for someone like me who does it for fun, but wouldn't mind ending up where you are in however many years. I've got I think 3 questions, any answers would be awesome. I typically will give the option for a quick kick if it's an IFK, but a direct kick should nearly always be a ceremonial. Quick kicks are for (anyone else correct me if they disagree) light fouls where a quick take can still allow some momentum from the play to carry on. Every ceremonial kick allows the defending team to get back in to shape, and the general rule is that pretty much any advantage that can be applied to the fouled attacking team should be given. How long have you been working as a ref? Given that the local Grade 7/8 (same as FIFA rankings I believe) being somewhat of a racket, or maybe better described as a "don't say no to anything if you want to keep working" environment, what is your opinion on how to keep sort of keep at it for fun (but not working 10 games a weekend because you're not allowed to "pick and choose** : games? Third question is related to that...now that I'm essentially disliked by one of the primary assignors in the area, in the interest of the long-term career, have you heard of or personally ever been on a poo poo list of sorts at any point in your career? I don't have a specific end goal, but working 150-200 games a year seems to be pretty reasonable all things considered, and if I'm going to end up with say 1000 games in 5 years or less, I'd prefer to not just be a Grade/Level 7 working the same stuff as before. I'm hoping I can get back to LA, or somewhere new within the next year at the most, but until then - any advice? *pick and choose meaning only 6 games instead of 5 a day, or more Also - about the carding for failure to respect distance...I've never had to do it, but I have seen or had players who generally are just copping major attitudes or displaying constant dissent stand over the ball and basically need to be told to back off. I maybe have seen a card come out once or twice, but it's for dissent, with that being the offense earning a caution, not the reason for the card. EDIT: I actually had a specific call that I wanted to ask you about, which luckily was in a 7 or 8-nil blowout. Team was playng a 4-4-2, and the left forward was very good about watching his position. At one point he breaks free himself with the right forward being 5-7 yards offside (miles, in our world) and jukes the last defender and shoots to the far/right post from just outside the area on the left side. It's just a rolling slow shot to the far post, but the keeper dives at it and comes up about a half yard short of touching/saving it. It's going on no matter what, but the offside striker runs up and taps in it from a yard outside the box...linesman called it offside, and I think about it, and I thought for a second and disallowed the goal. I couldn't think of any reason he wouldn't be offside, and him tapping the ball in was stupid, as it put him in to the play that otherwise wouldn't have involved him. Right call?
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Apr 28, 2013 20:12
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Thel posted:Side note - I received guidance today to convert any freekick within 15 yards of the box to a ceremonial one. (This was at a level 1 course for newbie refs FWIW.) Is that reasonable guidance for new refs? I've been asking attackers if they want to take it quickly and every one has asked me to push the wall back. 15 yards from the penalty area is a lot of the field; I usually don't give the ceremonial and count the 10 yards unless asked, instead opting to verbally tell the defenders who think 3 feet = 10 yards to back up. I always give the option for a quick kick (unless asked for the 10 yards) because it keeps the game flowing. I wouldn't give a ceremonial kick immediately unless I'm sure the attacking team wants it, as the point of the foul was likely to slow play and get organized anyways. Mewcenary you should tell us all of your awesome referee tricks! And...  Always the star, Salazar I like Ricardo Salazar from MLS. Many people do not. Bio-Hazard fucked around with this message at 20:34 on Apr 28, 2013 |
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Apr 28, 2013 20:28
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AVBrafaDiMatteo posted:EDIT: I actually had a specific call that I wanted to ask you about, which luckily was in a 7 or 8-nil blowout. Team was playng a 4-4-2, and the left forward was very good about watching his position. At one point he breaks free himself with the right forward being 5-7 yards offside (miles, in our world) and jukes the last defender and shoots to the far/right post from just outside the area on the left side. It's just a rolling slow shot to the far post, but the keeper dives at it and comes up about a half yard short of touching/saving it. It's going on no matter what, but the offside striker runs up and taps in it from a yard outside the box...linesman called it offside, and I think about it, and I thought for a second and disallowed the goal. I couldn't think of any reason he wouldn't be offside, and him tapping the ball in was stupid, as it put him in to the play that otherwise wouldn't have involved him. Right call? From a newbie ref's perspective it's absolutely the correct call to blow it dead, since he started in an offside position and was clearly involved in play (since he touched the ball). I really can't see any way *not* to call that one, actually ...
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Apr 28, 2013 21:14
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AVBrafaDiMatteo posted:Awesome add to this thread, and my question, maybe obviously, is about how you went from scratch to level 4 I qualified at the beginning of the 2009 / 2010 season. I was pretty active doing everything from youth to parks senior football (including veterans stuff which is a nice slow pace!). I also got involved with acting as an Assistant Referee on my local supply league, which you can do as a level 7. Based on the marks I was getting from both the referees and assessors, I was involved in Prem (basically, proper supply league games, refereed by level 4s) games. I definitely advocate running the line to more senior referees as you learn a lot... both good and bad! For every trick I've learned with how to manage games, I've seen referees in actions that have done things that have DESTROYED their match control. I'm not talking about decisions here... I am talking about their attitude and how they spoke to players and managers. The following season I wasn't eligible to go for promotion, as I hadn't completed a full season. Frustrating! So the following season I applied to 'double jump' (go from level 7 to level 5). This means doing two promotion seasons in one go: Minimum of 40 senior games, 6 assessments, 2 promotion seminars and so on. A big ask but I made it. On paper, I was also eligible for a direct nomination to level 4, but I was not nominated by my county. I immediately applied to go for level 4. I started doing games with neutral assistants on the non-marking divisions of my local supply league (In my area, we have those -- in other parts of the UK, opportunities to work with neutral assistants are rare unless you already are level 4 or above). Gained a lot of experience and had to hit the ground running as I was assessed on my first middle of the season! Thankfully, it went well, as did the other 4 assessments I needed to complete, with that ending in March. It helped that I was also acting as a referee on an U18 midweek youth league, which features local academy sides... lots more experience gained of working in a team. Incidentally, got the cup final on that as Reserve Referee after my first full season on it! I knew I had been nominated by my county FA (they told me) but it has been a long wait to see whether the FA will accept the nomination. They have! quote:I typically will give the option for a quick kick if it's an IFK, but a direct kick should nearly always be a ceremonial. Quick kicks are for (anyone else correct me if they disagree) light fouls where a quick take can still allow some momentum from the play to carry on. Every ceremonial kick allows the defending team to get back in to shape, and the general rule is that pretty much any advantage that can be applied to the fouled attacking team should be given. Temperature of the game must also be taken into consideration. My default position with little fouls is, yes, let the players get on with it. It's down to the attacking team to get it down and do that, and I'll make sure the defending team don't mess about. This the 'give and go' approach. However, if things are getting a bit heated, and for a bit of a meatier foul, it's 'stop and sort' -- make sure everything is okay, talk to players as required, THEN move off and the restart is when you order it. Rarely need to use the whistle for that. Save the whistle for when it is needed. Players really appreciate being spoken to. A lot of referees talk to players who have just hacked someone's legs off. How many then talk to the other team to check all is okay? I generally do this. It's just a chance to say, "Okay lads, I've dealt with him, keep it cool and wait for my signal before taking the kick". Empathy. quote:Third question is related to that...now that I'm essentially disliked by one of the primary assignors in the area, in the interest of the long-term career, have you heard of or personally ever been on a poo poo list of sorts at any point in your career? I don't have a specific end goal, but working 150-200 games a year seems to be pretty reasonable all things considered, and if I'm going to end up with say 1000 games in 5 years or less, I'd prefer to not just be a Grade/Level 7 working the same stuff as before. I'm hoping I can get back to LA, or somewhere new within the next year at the most, but until then - any advice? I work with a variety of referee secretaries. Right now, that's one per league I work with, and it helps to be on good terms. That's pretty simple though: Be polite, reply quickly, and make sure you tell them of your open and closed dates well in advance. They have a hard enough job as it is ('herding cats' is apt, I think) let alone a referee reply and say, "Oh, sorry, I can't do that date, it's my grandmother's birthday". I've never heard of all this 10 games a weekend stuff though! Even at my peak, I would be doing 1 on a Saturday, and 2 on a Sunday, and have now scaled back as the games I am doing are more physically demanding: I will be moving a minimum of 10 kilometres during the senior games I am doing. As far as I know, I've never been on a poo poo list, and have been very privileged to get the cup finals etc I've got over the last few seasons. I think that's the way of looking at it: It's a privilege to get games, and I treat it as such. No game is beneath me. If you go into a game thinking, "Oh, this is some middle of the table end of season clash that means nothing", you'll take that attitude into the game and it won't be pretty. A senior assessor said to me when I first started, "Enjoy your refereeing". At the time, I thought that seemed a bit condescending and obvious. Now I understand. My best performances are when I've walked out onto the pitch with my team smiling and really, REALLY enjoying myself and looking forward to the game. And if you start with that, then something goes wrong, you will find it easier to recover as you KNOW you can do it and you KNOW about all the games you have nailed and enjoyed. quote:Also - about the carding for failure to respect distance...I've never had to do it, but I have seen or had players who generally are just copping major attitudes or displaying constant dissent stand over the ball and basically need to be told to back off. I maybe have seen a card come out once or twice, but it's for dissent, with that being the offense earning a caution, not the reason for the card. It's not uncommon for defenders to stand on the ball. The key is to manage it and get them away from it. That's proactive and can result in no cards, happy players and happy managers. However, if the SAME player keeps doing it, and isn't listening, he's going to end up with a card. It's rare though, and I think the last time I cautioned for this was when a player ran up to block a quick free kick, and then also stuck his leg out as the kick was taken, so that one was pretty bang to rights. Taking one for the team! No action taken by a referee should be a surprise to anyone. The players, officials and spectators should all find it pretty obvious when a referee issues a caution or otherwise, if your match control and communication is on point. quote:EDIT: I actually had a specific call that I wanted to ask you about, which luckily was in a 7 or 8-nil blowout. Team was playng a 4-4-2, and the left forward was very good about watching his position. At one point he breaks free himself with the right forward being 5-7 yards offside (miles, in our world) and jukes the last defender and shoots to the far/right post from just outside the area on the left side. It's just a rolling slow shot to the far post, but the keeper dives at it and comes up about a half yard short of touching/saving it. It's going on no matter what, but the offside striker runs up and taps in it from a yard outside the box...linesman called it offside, and I think about it, and I thought for a second and disallowed the goal. I couldn't think of any reason he wouldn't be offside, and him tapping the ball in was stupid, as it put him in to the play that otherwise wouldn't have involved him. Right call? Embarrassing for the player, but yep, offside!
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Apr 28, 2013 21:22
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Bio-Hazard posted:Mewcenary you should tell us all of your awesome referee tricks! And... Jedi mind control? I'm sure a lot of them will come out as I pay more attention to this thread. Game to game... At the moment I'm preparing for my next game, and that's on Tuesday. This is the 2nd v 3rd in my senior league, and is a potential promotion / league title decider. I've done the home team before and they are a feisty (but fair) lot, and I know there will be a decent crowd (There is normally, let alone for a match of this importance). I have been in touch with my two Assistant Referees (I know both of them, both senior guys with a lot of experience) and have been checking on the 'gen' on recent games. This is all about being in the right mental state for the game. Some referees make a point of NOT wanting to know anything about previous history and so on, but I think it is pretty important. Really the lesson learned from my last game is the importance of teamwork. I fully agree in getting my two Assistant Referees feeling valued in the team. Some referees treat Assistants like crap. Not me. As a result, I'm glad that I've had various comments over the season of assistants REALLY enjoying the games they've had with me, due to their involvement and so on. Certainly had to back up one of my assistants in the cup final. There was a reckless challenge right in front of the technical areas, clear caution, and I blew up for that. It all kicked off though and we had a bit of a mass confrontation. Not too bad, and I cautioned the guy for the challenge, BUT my Assistant had stepped onto the pitch and was staying there. This was something we had discussed in the briefing: If after an incident you have something to tell me, come onto the pitch. I go over and the conversation is like this: R: "I've cautioned Yellow X for the challenge. What else do you have for me?" A: "Blue 4 kicked out after the challenge." R: "Okay, so I need to send him off for violent conduct?" A: "I don't know, you're the referee...." (Feeling the pressure) R: Okay, Pat...If you were refereeing this game, and you saw that player kick-out, would you send him off?" A: "Yes." R: "Okay, that's what we will do." Sent him off. Hell of a reaction from the supporters as you can imagine, but I backed my Assistant 100%. The player was NOT happy BUT after the game came and apologised. He had kicked out _twice_ at the time, in fact, but basically was hoping to only get a yellow due to it being a cup final. I don't work like that!
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Apr 28, 2013 21:31
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Bio-Hazard posted:
He loving sucks, like all other MLS referees.
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Apr 29, 2013 01:34
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Shrapnac posted:He loving sucks, like all other MLS referees. Chris Penso is awesome tyvm  (He also just turned 31 so we will be seeing him for many many years)Cautions for FRD will vary from game to game. If, for instance, you're working a Hispanic league game where almost every player is going to do that and both teams, while they might raise a hint of a complain, are accepting of it, you're just going to be digging yourself into a huge hole if you go to the book every time. Other games, it is helpful to give a very public dressing down if someone runs and stands in front of the ball and then follow that up with a caution then and/or the next time. I have given a few for that, but it's rarely an issue in games I've worked that aren't two Hispanic teams playing each other (and I don't tend to do much about it in those games). I'm not too concerned about giving a yellow card for a wall setting up at 7 yards or anything like that. They (usually) don't know where exactly 10 yards are and give it their best effort. I also have only had a guy come rushing out of the wall a couple of times so that hasn't been too big of an issue for me to have to address.
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Apr 29, 2013 08:05
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Just don't be like this AR http://www.101greatgoals.com/blog/insane-a-russian-lino-loses-the-plot-attacks-a-youth-player-with-punches-and-kicks/
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Apr 29, 2013 17:22
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ayb posted:Just don't be like this AR The player isn't guiltless for verbally abusing the AR, but that is a pretty ridiculous reaction. I honestly can't believe that happened. Wow. In referees-not-assaulting-players news, I got invited to work the HS playoffs here. Pretty excited about that. Of course, I have finals that conflict so I may not be able to do so, but I still feel it's an honor to even be invited. Even with our extremely shallow pool of referees, not everyone gets the opportunity.
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Apr 29, 2013 17:48
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Mewcenary posted:
I legitimately feel like every game, in every division or age group, deserves to have proper officiating, since I remember countless horrible refs and umpires when I was that age. I hit what apparently is a really common wall where the mental fatigue or just  feeling after hearing parent destroy their children on the field (they're loving 12 years old, give them a break if they can't bend it in to the corner from 20 out!), but even after that I pretty quickly got back in to the fun state of mind. Even if I point out how extreme the weekends were - I've got 115-120 games on the books, 80-some of which were JUST from Saturday and Sunday assignments from 9/18 to 11/21 alone - I was super excited to get my first game, and treated every game fairly. My friends actually found it almost impossible to believe that I truly believed in fairly officiating games, and that it wasn't some big long gimmicky gag that I was part of. While I won't lie and say that u8 games are as exciting sounding as a Gold Division Group A local grudgematch - once I got out there, I took it all seriously, and was complimented a lot by coaches and parents/league officials for the subtle positive reinforcement and smile I have on out there. You don't have to be a mean cranky bastard to get respect. On my last game night, I found out from an assessor that he was really unhappy with the over-booking of refs under this assignor, and that working 5 games in a day should never happen, let alone 10 or 12 in a weekend. Apparently it's against the policy to do more than 2 consecutive games, and the USSF has a belief/study going on that I guess shows that there is rapid decline in referee performance after the 2nd game, due to mental/physical fatigue. I never really thought much about 5-7 games in a weekend, as the block of 3 games was standard, so it wasn't horribly time-consuming to work from say 9am kickoff to 12:15 kickoff and go home at 2 with 3 games done, and then do 3 more the next day, or sometimes do 3 for my primary, 1 for the evil assignor, and then a block of 3 on Sunday. When I told this to the assessor who was talking about how 3 maximum in a weekend is really what's ideal, he just seemed furious and told me that part of the problem is that all of us are too scared of this assignor, and that we shouldn't be accepting 5 games, let alone 3 in a row with no breaks between kickoff. After I had a talk with him about how it's "supposed to be," I did feel a bit more used than I already did. I mean - the assignor who overbooked me constantly made it seem every weekend like she was desperate for coverage and that if I couldn't do these 4 extra games, on top of the 6 I already had, she didn't know what she was going to do. Once I had gotten used to that schedule, I didn't mind that much as long as I had most of one weekend day off. As weird as it seems, I did feel sort of grateful that this big assignor personally emailed me to cover these bigger games and felt like it would definitely help my standing long-term. At the end of the day though, not having this assignor's games is a major setback and having the state officials remember my name only as "the guy that got in the argument with the big assignor" probably is a kiss of death on advancement. I know the progression is a bit different with FIFA/FA, but - I have no games to work, no assignor that's active right now, and no clue what exactly to do. It sounds like you never had that happen, but - curious if you'e ever heard of someone falling out with a specific official, assignor, or regional group of officials, and still continuing on to at least keep things moving at an equal level eventually. I don't know how to go about convincing people that matter in my area that I'm not just an rear end in a top hat careless twenty-something out there just to get booze money by babysitting little kids. They have plenty of those, and I still find it tough to believe that looking at my first 4-5 months of games indicates that. The people who matter right now don't think I have any "passion for the game," and I have no clue how to change their minds or demonstrate that yes, I do give a poo poo. I know this is a bit much and lame and all that, but - I just find it super lovely that after spending years bitching about Fifa10-13 and refs on TV, I go out and work my rear end of to get in the game again, and am on the shitlist because an assignor got mad that I didn't want to back a center's calls or overall officiating in a game so bad that there were more complaints than any other game this year, at least from what I heard. I back the crew and center every chance I get, and don't mind doing it; it's a team thing. But there is a point where wrong is just wrong, and it's impossible to say "I am OK with what this person called and how they treated the players and the overall situation." To quote some of the playrs who were trying to get red cards...."Sir! What does it take for you to card us sir? I'm tackling this opponent with my studs out and trying to get a car sir!" I don't know what it would have took. TL;DR - good ref, bad game, argument about bad game with assignor, given the boot from local mob-boss assignor, have no games or clue what to do now. EDIT: Sorry for being a bitch, I'll figure out something. Let's go back to talking about the triangle or sharing secret techniques. TRICK - as an AR, I use the grip on the flag to keep track of which team had the last touch on the ball. You can really do it either way, but - I will grip the flag with my index and middle finger curled around the left side if the team going left to right has the last touch. When the other team touches it, I'll move my index finger to the other side, so it's basically like a V grip on the flag. Once you do it for a bit, it becomes almost automatic, and if you have that moment where you just get caught up looking at something else and instantly need to know, you've got your grip telling you which team just had last touch. Works like a charm, and I haven't met anyone else who does that.
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Apr 30, 2013 00:58
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AVBrafaDiMatteo posted:
Advancement is in part political. If you find yourself on a dirt list, all you can do is keep quiet, work what you are given, and just stay strong until people forget what happened. It will go away. It might take a year (or more), but it will go away. Especially if you just keep working hard and showing that you are a competent referee. Your body of work will eventually catch up to you and you will be fine. The other part is just physical going out and working. There are a certain number of games you have to work at each level to make the step up. The Referee Administrative Handbook isn't "valid" anymore per se, and your state may have adopted additional requirements, but what the USSF currently has posted for upgrades (in case you didn't know): Grade 8 is Referee Class 2. You take a class and this is where you are! 8->7 (Referee 1): 75 R, 25 AR. 12 months as G8. Pass assessment U17 or higher R. 7->6 (State 2): 100 R, 25 AR, games need to be U17 or higher. 12 months G7. Pass assessments, 2 R (one has to be D2 adult or higher) and 1 AR. 6->5 (State 1): 150 R, 50 Ar. 50 of the 150 have to be D1 adult. 12 months G6. 2 C/1AR assessment on D1 adult. 5->4 (National referee): 175 R, 100 AR. 75 of R must be D1, 5 have to be professional games; 5 AR on professional games as well. All games adult league. 2 years G5. 3 is Professional referee, and is by invite. 2 is FIFA AR, 1 is FIFA R. These are all by invite So...to get to "National" status, you need 175 adult league centers (75 on D1, 5 on pro) and 100 adult league AR (5 on pro) and at least 5 years total, plus all the assesments. At this point, from what I understand national referee assessments aren't the X C and Y ARs like it used to be, but is rather based on a sufficient body of work across the Professional games you are to do. And again, your local referee association may have modified these. But that's just to give you an idea of the game count that you are after. 275 games isn't all that many. Getting them as adult league games can be tricky at times, sure, but if you ran 2 adult league lines a weekend for a year you would have all the ARs you will ever need, save the 5 professional ones. That's not particularly hard to get to do. The tricky part will be getting those R games. That comes down to basically the assignor trusting you. Like right now, my HS assignor is also the adult league assignor around these parts. Since I'm new to the area, I don't get much a sniff at those. In the fall though, I'll probably get to start running D4 lines, and it'll just go from there for me. I have no desire to rush to the top, but as long as I'm young and have the time/ability to go for an upgrade, I will. My current goal is State (with, of course, a year at 7 coming soon), and that's probably where I'll stop since I don't see my work life being very kind to me getting past that level, but it'll be a good day if I can get to that point. I have no illusions that I could do an adult league D2 center right now, but that's a work in progress like many things. Anyway, my point is, just develop your game. It sounds like your game count is pretty advanced (way more than what I had worked that early in my career), and so just keep your fitness high and get ready to move up. I don't know how many of your games were as referee, but if there was a good amount and you are comfortable at the U17 level, then I'd say the next time you have a U17 whistle, get in touch with an assessor and get a developmental upgrade. See what they can tell you about if you're ready. Then, if they and you feel you are, the next time you get a game that will be competitive (as in you are expecting multiple fouls and cautions), get an upgrade assessment on that. I got one at one of our Showcase tournaments in January. 4 fouls. 6-0. Not a chance of the game counting. Waste of money, haha. My point is, though, once you show that desire to upgrade, that starts to set you apart from the beer money guys. They don't typically ever go past an 8. And honestly, I thin upwards of 90% of USSF people don't get past 8. Showing the desire to move forward and then making that step could do a lot to starting building bridges, whether old or new. But, politics are a lot nicer around these parts, so I don't know if what I think would help actually will. There isn't a lot of "conflict" here. Too small of a state soccer wise for that to happen. We only have 3 nationals for goodness sake, ha.
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Apr 30, 2013 03:20
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, part of which talk about advancing
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I still find it cool that in the US, players call you guys, 'Sir'. Very much different over here in the UK! "Ref" is as polite as it gets. Some captains may use my name, but to be honest, I prefer 'Ref' as it is clear they are talking to me, instead of another player who potentially has the same name. I had a game in a previous season where the captain was American, and he used 'Sir', and it took me a while to adjust to it and realise he wasn't just taking the piss!
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Apr 30, 2013 09:56
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It's amazing how most of them have mastered the old copper's trick of pronouncing "sir" to rhyme with "you worthless little pile of weasel poo poo", as well.Crazy American Assignor Politics posted:You know, that is exactly the sort of thing I was hoping for when I said Trin Tragula posted:I've always been vaguely aware of this weird assignor politics stuff that goes on over there and I've been dying to know how bonkers it can get, so please keep the crazy feudin' assignor stuff coming See, the angle I'm coming at this from is that over here, we've got a massive shortage pretty much everywhere. If you're a referees' secretary you have to be nice to people. Every April everyone in the county handbook gets a mailshot from about ten different leagues, all of them begging you to take games from them. (What you actually do is go to the society that trained you and ask "what's a good league?" and then join that one.) Then, as long as you're not a total blithering idiot and you show up when you say you will, all the games you can eat and never more than you can stomach. Even the blithering idiot will get games, because the canny referees' secretary will reserve him to send to whichever club's been wasting his time with stupid complaints about the referee last week. The thing is, if ever the Ambridge & District League appointed a referees' secretary who was an idiot and they tried to pull even one twentieth of the poo poo that y'all's crazy feudin' assignors get up to, the league's lower-division clubs would very soon finding themselves complaining about not getting referees any more, and the league committee would then discover that all their reliable old hands are now taking games for good old Bob on the Mid-Borsetshire League instead; and if they don't do something very drastic very quickly, that's often where a lot of those clubs end up as well. It's such a completely different equation. Kind of like healthcare.
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Apr 30, 2013 11:48
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Trin Tragula posted:It's amazing how most of them have mastered the old copper's trick of pronouncing "sir" to rhyme with "you worthless little pile of weasel poo poo", as well. Yup, same thing here (minus the other leagues options). We have like 18 mens divisions in the local league, and there's supposed to be "proper" (non-club) referees for the top 7 divisions (with ARs for the top 2 divisions, and 4ths for the top division - in theory). In practice we're so short of refs (even though we only provide refs for about a third of the games that actually happen) that anyone will get as many games as they want and even then none of the 7th div games have had certified/neutral referees and only about a quarter of the 6th div games have had them. And as far as I can tell you only get one game a weekend, two if you ask for it, and three if things are pear-shaped. (Speaking of pear-shaped currently I'm listed as AR2 on a game this weekend that doesn't have a referee assigned. Wonder how that'll work.) So even though there's effectively one referee coordinator you can work with (short of road-tripping 3+ hours to go to a different region), the refs hold most of the power via scarcity. Also it's all-volunteer and the pay is minimal (enough to cover gas or a bus fare and not much else), which probably contributes to the shortage but also means if the coordinator gets uppity you quit refereeing and open up a lemonade stand instead. (Probably make more money that way actually.)
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Apr 30, 2013 12:32
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PROMISE - this is the last long post I will make, as I want to get back to stories, tricks of the trade, and not me being a huge douchepussy. Good advice, and pretty much in line with what I am planning to deal and how I assumed I was going to have to handle it. I've heard a lot of the stats about the number of dropouts overall, and I was told 1 in 100 get to Grade 7 (by an assessor I believe). The cert class taught us that Grade 8 Level 2 upgrade to Grade 7 is minimum of 100 games, 75 of which are centers, along with 3 assessments with a passing/good result and a fitness test. They recommended to not center games until you've done at least 25 AR assignments, and I probably waited until I was in the 50s before I took some easier centering. Again, this was all over such a short amount of time that it definitely probably was not the overall development that I'd think is ideal, but I never had any major complaints that stick out from calls I made as an AR. If I looked backed, I'm sure I had some in the earlier posts, but thinking back now none of them were noteworthy. I think I'll just work AR games for a while and stay out of the middle, as I never had anybody notice me for much of anything when I was working lines. Getting 25-30 games done and then maybe trying to move back to the regular rotation is probably a good idea. Now - here is what I find amazing about the whole feuding assignor/shortage thing...if you didn't know better, you'd think that this area was like completely short and without referees. But, from what I can tell, the assignors don't have anything close to an even split of games or regions, and the one who I'm on the outs with is both the least organized and efficient. The 3 assignors other the the main one I've talked about all sort of seem to be in fear that once you get in the rotation of games for the main one that you're basically going t abandon them. A state official told me that there are 1200 active referees under her assignment, but every week I would get emails like this (real email): quote:
This was basically EVERY email I ever had - I scheduled you without asking, but you've picked games for OTHER ASSIGNOR. Then, "OK, well it looks like I can cover for both of you, bassed on the list of games there is definitely room to provide coverage for your here, here, here, or there. Which games do you think you need confirmed soonest? Any of those groupings of 2-3 games can work." "(answer that doesn't make sense)" "Right - keep me posted...thanks."  So, imagine this going on with every referee that is a regular, weekly grinder for this person. A good 75% of the refs are just ignored or barely get assigned any games at all, let along 3, 5, 8, more. This is despite their total availability, and constant attempts to get in touch and say that they were available if coverage was needed. When I was one of the favorites earlier on, people would constantly ask me how I got games from this assignor, and I said I had just asked, showed up for what I was given, given it 100%, and that was that. Some said that they'd done the same thing but never heard anything, and others said that they simply never heard back. How does a region with 1800 active referees covering at max 4000 games over an entire weekend have a total shortage of refs to the point where the top 25% are working 75% of the games? I'm not sure, but I think a lot of has to do with the number of people that won't work for this assignor, or who have been written off and just ended up quitting, or can't make the one random assignment they're given without any notice...on a field that's 40 miles from their house and at a time that wasn't asked about. I recommended ARs numerous times that were early 20s, experience, Grade 7/8, and willing to go at least 20-30 minutes for 2-3 game assignments, and never really got acknowledgement of the suggestions. The ultimate kiss rear end thing I did when I started was offer to make a pivot-table based XLS doc that would have made booking her crew super easy. No interest in it whatsoever, and ironically that weekend had I believe 3 games where no crew was booked due to something or other. I obviously have the drama-filled life as a ref, and probably don't anything make it less dramatic sounding, but - none of this type of stuff happens anyone else's region? Not even the super uneven distribution of games? I guess I'll be curious to see if there is a mad scramble for refs when some of the leagues pick back up. I think I may just add a handful of assignors to my name in the system, and then see how many of them contact me, or respond to my quick intro email saying that I'm now available for work in their leagues and to get in touch if they are looking for regular AR coverage. FAKE EDIT - writing this post made me realize why there is so much pent up anger with the assignor in question, as those emails, followed by schedules that never match what you're told, are basically what to expect working for her. While it's awesome to be getting assignments, it's not awesome to get told that you won't be working time X, and then get assignments for time X, Y, and a bunch more too that you didn't really clear to begin with.
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Apr 30, 2013 22:43
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Be careful out there amongst those surly teen types. http://msn.foxsports.com/foxsoccer/usa/story/salt-lake-city-man-refereeing-game-in-critical-condition-punched-by-teenager-043013 quote:A Salt Lake City man who was serving as a referee in a recreational soccer game in Taylorsville is in a critical condition after being punched by a teenager.
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May 1, 2013 01:04
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quote:The man did not appear to be a licensed referee. The game was part of a ''rogue league'' unaffiliated with the popular Utah Youth Soccer Association or any city or town recreation department, association CEO Andrew Hiatt said. The association has 50,000 youth players and 15,000 coaches statewide. Moral of the story: don't gently caress around with unaffiliated leagues if at all possible; for all you know he's playing in them because he's serving a multi-year ban in affiliated competitions for being a complete headcase.
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May 1, 2013 19:09
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First line (AR2) yesterday. Got a bit of a wake-up call at halftime to look a bit more interested - as luck would have it, in the first half I spent 90% of the time on the halfway line (fairly one-sided game even though the score was 1-0 at the half). Second half was busy, got pinged for missing a probable offside that lead to the final goal (3-0). At the time I was confident he wasn't offside (that said, I was a couple yards off the play and the attacker was on the far side of the defender), but both the ref and the other AR (who were both really nice guys, incidentally) said in the sheds afterward they thought he was.  Also got told I got thrown in the deep end since new linesmen normally start in womens, so starting in mens prem was a bit of a trial by fire. Can't tell if I'm being pushed to go on or if the ref coordinator is just desperate. So far I've done four games in four different divisions, would be nice to settle on one so I can get used to the standard and speed of play.Being an AR is actually really difficult, being a center ref feels so much more natural to me. Am I the only one?
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May 4, 2013 20:50
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Thel posted:Being an AR is actually really difficult, being a center ref feels so much more natural to me. Am I the only one? It's a whole different skill-set. I do prefer being the referee, but acting as an AR has always been a very good learning experience for me. For one, I will be acting as AR a level higher than that I am permitted to referee -- and therefore the referee will have more experience. Plus, I have learned a lot of how to run a team of officials by how I've been treated by referees when on their line. As the saying goes: A referee can commit suicide.... but an Assistant Referee can commit murder!
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May 4, 2013 22:07
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I can't agree more that being the center and AR are basically 2 entirely different gigs, and very little from one plays over to the other. Things that took me 10-20 games to really figure out as an AR (which is probably just what I'm going to do, honestly...better exercise, a bit more fun imho, and if you want to ever change sides you spend the whole game watching all players): - ARs have the benefit of seeing the whole field of play; if you're looking to center, it's the best place to learn - Have a mechanism that's almost subconscious for keeping track of last touch...I use the grip on the flag to have the direction of a pending throw in off the current touch already marked, so when you space out (and you will eventually, if not already) and the ball rolls out, you're already pointing yourself in the right direction - Don't make calls and look unsure, teams and spectators will absolutely rip you apart - the center might too. - In the event of a scramble anywhere in the middle third, do you absolute best to keep track of the touches, but if you just don't know, look up at the center and pick a side. Any hint of not knowing which way to call just builds tension up for the rest of the game. - OFFSIDE, not offsides...I personally couldn't give a poo poo and I hear offsides all the time, but sticklers will treat you as an amateur if you say offsides. But, most important: 1. Your job is to always, always be parallel to the second to last defender or the ball. Centers basically just want you calling offside and throw-ins, and that's it. If you take it upon yourself to start calling fouls, often they'll get pissed. The only except is either if they give you instructions pre-game (which happens once you have a rep as a good AR), or if it's a handball facing away from the center. Handballs, be sure to look for arm in unnatural position, and be very, very careful about PK calls. 2. Thunder then Lighting - I don't know if all schools teach this, but when I was a kid they always said lighting is 1 mile away for about every second it takes before thunder. Cheesy analogy, but offside is backward, and to be a good AR it's the primary call you make. Adapt to looking at where the player is when you hear the sound of the pass, and wait until the player is involved in the play. It's very easy to look and all of a sudden see a forward receiving the pass 1-2 yards ahead of the defender. You have to be sure he didn't time his run. What I do is keep the offside line at all times, and when I anticipate a pass to a forward player, I look right down the parallel line and listen for the sound of the pass. If the thunder beats the lighting (the run or player's sprint or timed run), he's offside. Lighting beats thunder? Onside. Super lame analogies, but it's what makes the best ARs...onside/offside calls, confident throw-in calls, poker face when people yell at you, and until the crowd starts fighting you, go with the center since you don't have much choice in the matter. Thel - you said that you're in the prem...I can't imagine you mean the prem the prem, but what level are you talking about? God I wish I could work games over there, it sounds so much better than the grind out here.
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May 5, 2013 03:13
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I prefer ARs because either you have a good center, and you're making decisions and having a good time; or you have a primadonna center who likes the whole game himself, and you get less work and the same amount of pay.
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May 5, 2013 10:03
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AVBrafaDiMatteo posted:I can't agree more that being the center and AR are basically 2 entirely different gigs, and very little from one plays over to the other. Things that took me 10-20 games to really figure out as an AR (which is probably just what I'm going to do, honestly...better exercise, a bit more fun imho, and if you want to ever change sides you spend the whole game watching all players): Oh hell naw (I'm in NZ remember). When I say prem I mean prem grade for our local area of ~300k people (and there's central league above that for our region of ~400k people). After that is national league, then international stuff (bearing in mind our player base is a lot smaller so our footballing pyramid is a lot smaller). Also bear in mind what I said earlier about us not providing referees all the way down (juniors don't get referees until they're on, basically, the equivalent of a state team. HS teams get referees for their first XI's only, etc.), so in refereeing terms I'm still a babe in the woods. In terms of the amount of responsibility - well let's just say there were about 20 spectators (and it was an absolute beaut of a day, very little wind, bright sunshine, about 70°F). And yeah I totally spaced out at least three times during that game, fortunately only one of them was of any consequence (ball out just on the other side of the halfway line), I look at the center, he looks at me, I shrug a fraction and he picked a side. Concentration as an AR is a real bastard.
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May 5, 2013 10:58
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Bio-Hazard posted:I prefer ARs because either you have a good center, and you're making decisions and having a good time; or you have a primadonna center who likes the whole game himself, and you get less work and the same amount of pay. They pay you all the same? Here the center makes 2-3x what ARs make depending on the event. If it was the same pay for both, I wouldn't ever go near the center. Utah ref is dead...
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May 5, 2013 18:05
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Daft question - you can only sned someone off for DOGSO when a goal is not scored right? So if the last defender carelessly trips the striker, you wave play on and the striker buries it, there'd be no sanction for the defender?
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May 6, 2013 13:37
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Thel posted:Daft question - you can only sned someone off for DOGSO when a goal is not scored right? Yes, in this scenario the defender did not deny the opportunity. I think there's an old YATR where the defender on the line handles the ball, then immediately realizes what he's done and boots it into the net. He hasn't denied the goal (note the slight difference in wording between the handling and the foul versions of DOGSO) and has therefore cleverly escaped being sent off. In your scenario, you still might want to caution the defender for a professional foul but that depends on the situation. edit: Worst part of being a referee? The dreaded double watch burn. (And also the back of the knee burn, seems like no amount of sunscreen back there will prevent it)
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May 6, 2013 14:24
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Lamont Cranston posted:Yes, in this scenario the defender did not deny the opportunity. I think there's an old YATR where the defender on the line handles the ball, then immediately realizes what he's done and boots it into the net. He hasn't denied the goal (note the slight difference in wording between the handling and the foul versions of DOGSO) and has therefore cleverly escaped being sent off. In your scenario, you still might want to caution the defender for a professional foul but that depends on the situation. I have the hardcover YATR book, so if we ever need to reference one of those I can get a scan or super nice upload of it. On this note, what did you all think of the Everton no-goal against Liverpool? Unless I saw it totally wrong, it looked like an incredibly bad call that I'm suprised wasn't given, despite the whistle being blown. Technically I know he can't award the goal after killing the play, but...couldn't he have? Or, as my instructor said, does he have to eat "humble pie" after that whistle because that's effectively killing play.
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May 6, 2013 18:36
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AVBrafaDiMatteo posted:I have the hardcover YATR book, so if we ever need to reference one of those I can get a scan or super nice upload of it. On this note, what did you all think of the Everton no-goal against Liverpool? Unless I saw it totally wrong, it looked like an incredibly bad call that I'm suprised wasn't given, despite the whistle being blown. Technically I know he can't award the goal after killing the play, but...couldn't he have? Or, as my instructor said, does he have to eat "humble pie" after that whistle because that's effectively killing play. I didn't see much there. I'm guessing that maybe he wasn't sure if it was really a corner or not (I forget what happened before so I don't know if it was clear or not) and so he decided to find a push since on a lot of corners you can find an out (see also Coulibaly, Algeria vs USA). This, unfortunately, wasn't one of those times. As far as blowing the whistle but then giving the goal anyway, never ever ever. Jason Anno did this once. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsasM3nPln0 Not in the MLS anymore. Don't know if he worked anymore games after that, either. It's a lesson in having a slow whistle. You can come back and blow your whistle a few seconds later, but you can never unblow it.
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May 6, 2013 21:36
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chaoslord posted:As far as blowing the whistle but then giving the goal anyway, never ever ever. This is one that came to mind for me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GQN2_4QmhM&t=495s
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May 6, 2013 22:10
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AVBrafaDiMatteo posted:I have the hardcover YATR book, so if we ever need to reference one of those I can get a scan or super nice upload of it. On this note, what did you all think of the Everton no-goal against Liverpool? Unless I saw it totally wrong, it looked like an incredibly bad call that I'm suprised wasn't given, despite the whistle being blown. Technically I know he can't award the goal after killing the play, but...couldn't he have? Or, as my instructor said, does he have to eat "humble pie" after that whistle because that's effectively killing play. I thought there was some contact in the box (a push on Carragher, a shirt pull on Agger, a little bit of obstruction on Reina), but it was harsh to blow for a foul. I'm not sure what the ref said to Anichebe (I think?) before the corner, but I think that he had already decided to blow his whistle for a foul if there was anything going on in there. Very soft imo. In regards to your question, no. Never. He blew the whistle before it went in, so as far as the laws are concerned, nothing happened afterwards. edit: why am I not surprised both of those examples are from the MLS  Seriously though, if you blow the whistle play has stopped.
EvilHawk fucked around with this message at 22:16 on May 6, 2013 |
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May 6, 2013 22:14
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Technically, play stops when you *decide* to blow the whistle, even if the ball is in the back of the net before you make a noise.
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May 7, 2013 01:49
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Ah, whistle timing. A lot comes with experience on this. There are times to delay the whistle (typically on a promising attack build-up, is there going to be Advantage?) but at other times, delaying could cause you real problems. This is typically when the game temperature is rising. Low temperature: "Cheers ref!" (when you've explained you saw the foul, waiting to see if there was going to be any advantage) High temperature: "REEEFFFFF!!!!!" (immediate shout) and opposition team, "You're just going on their shout, ref!!!" I had a good one of these in a game last week. Attacker in the penalty area, running parallel to the goal line, and is blatantly tripped. However, I delay the whistle for just a few seconds (as it is such an obvious foul) -- just enough time for another attacker to poke it into the net. Obviously if the shot was missed, I could easily have given the penalty - we are talking 1-2 seconds here for a very obvious foul, and I could credibly say I never played advantage, I had to get the whistle to my mouth first! (I did explain to the attacking team I had seen the foul though!)
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May 7, 2013 12:12
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EvilHawk posted:edit: why am I not surprised both of those examples are from the MLS I used to be surprised that the USSF allowed the kind of cretins into MLS that it currently does. After hearing the wonderful assignor stories that we've been blessed with, I'm not surprised in the least any more.
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May 7, 2013 14:12
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Finally being assessed this weekend (after I was told I was being assessed on my second game) - solo reffing a game after two weekends of not reffing. This could be ... interesting. At least I know one of the teams is a good bunch of guys, and the other team is from the same club* so I assume they're not going to go out there lusting for blood. Hopefully anyway.  * Somehow this club has three teams in the same division. The hell?
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May 13, 2013 06:36
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Mewcenary posted:
Hahaha were you refereeing our game at Granville last weekend? That exact scenario happened... sadly against my team  . Then again, we lost by 7 goals so it didn't really matter (we were playing a team 10 divisions above us, which may have had something to do with it).Had two hilariously pedantic refs for my U13s team I coach for the last two games - both gave fouls any time a player brushed past another one and literally used the parents for calling offside. Didn't take long for the parents to work out to yell any time a through ball was played, sometimes with hilarious results (player called offside when he was 10m on or with another player on the goalline next to the keeper and the offside player being near halfway). All good fun  .
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May 13, 2013 06:48
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Thel posted:* Somehow this club has three teams in the same division. The hell? The main Sounders supporters group is up to like 8 teams of various genders and ages and skill groups. It took a long time before any of them ended up playing each other, though. They also operate a pub league made up of all of their own teams aimed at people who just want to play. That's where I ply my trade as a keeper and occasional AR. I'm not very good at being an AR yet, I'm still really getting used to balancing keeping track of the touch and keeping up with the last defender, and still noting offside.
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May 13, 2013 06:59
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iajanus posted:Hahaha were you refereeing our game at Granville last weekend? That exact scenario happened... sadly against my team Unlikely - I'm over here in England!
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May 13, 2013 12:20
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Figured the odds were that was the case, but you never know . Was just so oddly specific!
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May 14, 2013 05:01
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