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Duzzy Funlop posted:Well, both trials annoyed (or are beginning to annoy) me because of the stage they're setting for the crazies to, uh...market themselves. Well the Norwegians shut that off right quick when Breivik wanted to address the victims and the judge cut off his mike. We can only hope the judges here will do equally well...and it's a desperate hope.
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May 7, 2013 09:36
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Well, unlike Norway, the whole affair is already a farce. With the mysteriously destroyed files, the incompetent investigation and two of the main suspects dead, I have feeling this will all in all be pretty disappointing, unless they actually manage to reveal some of the stuff behind the scenes.
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May 7, 2013 10:55
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At least the lawyer's names are fitting: Stahl, Heer and Sturm, Esq.
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May 7, 2013 17:48
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A Turkish politician is being stupid again, because he demands crucifixes to be removed from the court room because they are a threat to non-Christians and not worthy of a democracy. Nevermind that Turkey has a state church and the religious minorities are persecuted. Anyway, he also says the NSU clearly had to have help from the state because how else would they have been able to kill eight Turks and a Greek with the same gun, right?
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May 7, 2013 18:27
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To be quite honest, there is nothing stupid about wondering why a secular state allows a crucifix in its court rooms. And it does raise the question if the court will be biased because the majority of the victims were Muslims. At the very least, it is no more stupid than the outrage about Zscherpe wearing  fitting clothes
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May 7, 2013 19:15
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Riso posted:A Turkish politician is being stupid again, because he demands crucifixes to be removed from the court room because they are a threat to non-Christians and not worthy of a democracy. Nevermind that Turkey has a state church and the religious minorities are persecuted.  Tell me more about how this dude talking about how putting a religious symbol in a house of secular justice is totally cool because Turkey is mean to, uhh, Armenian Christians and how this means that such claims are "stupid" in a completely different, secular country.
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May 7, 2013 19:25
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Well, Bavarians just love their cruzifices.
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May 7, 2013 19:37
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Deceitful Penguin posted:Oh casual contempt for the Turkish, how I missed you, almost as much as the Spaetzle and mousebags.
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May 7, 2013 19:49
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BabyFur Denny posted:Feeling threatened by a bunch of wooden sticks on a wall is stupid. You especially have no right to complain when your own country does in effect not grant religious freedom and practice.
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May 7, 2013 20:02
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BabyFur Denny posted:Feeling threatened by a bunch of wooden sticks on a wall is stupid. Maybe this will help you understand. And while i can't speak about feeling threatened by it i don't like the idea of crucifixes in schools/courthouses/whatever.
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May 7, 2013 20:04
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Um the cross isn't a religious symbol it's a symbol of European cultural heritage! It's 100% secular! We don't favour any religion! Anyways, now that I've cleared up the whole cross issue and proven I'm 100% secular, I'm off to pass a bunch of spiteful laws against religious minorities.
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May 7, 2013 20:08
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Maybe we should hang an infant's foreskin and a picture of Mohammed right next to it to make it equal.
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May 7, 2013 21:56
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BabyFur Denny posted:Feeling threatened by a bunch of wooden sticks on a wall is stupid. Keep it coming dude. Next you tell me that the Turks (and they're always "Turks", even if they're 3rd generation immigrants to Germany and the closest they've come to Turkey is the local döner place) don't want to go to Gymnasium, they go to Haupt and Realschule because that's just the way it is, maaan. And I'm sure Germans wouldn't understand the banning of symbols, nope, can't think of anything prominent involving those two things. Riso posted:You especially have no right to complain when your own country does in effect not grant religious freedom and practice. Noahdraron posted:Maybe we should hang an infant's foreskin and a picture of Mohammed right next to it to make it equal. 
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May 7, 2013 21:59
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But I LOVE calamari fritti! Yum.
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May 7, 2013 22:49
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Riso posted:You especially have no right to complain when your own country does in effect not grant religious freedom and practice. I guess Gitmo inmates have no right to complain either if they are from countries that practice torture?
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May 7, 2013 23:23
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Obviously you can only express casual contempt for your own fellow countrymen. And only if you have the same skin color. And are of the same gender. And the same age. Etc. Is the politician that is criticized here not Turkish then? Because that was exactly what was said: "A Turkish politician is being stupid again..." And how is one supposed to respond if they don't like what this guy is doing? If a German politician were to criticize a Turkish court for not having a crucifix or cross or whatever stupid religious symbol, wouldn't the Turkish similarly tell him to mind his own loving business? Or hey, maybe they would even consider that in the greater scheme of things this is so completely irrelevant that they wouldn't even respond. Regardless, please stop being PC fascists. Trying to read racism into every single loving thing people say really does make you the horrible person. E: ArchangeI posted:I guess Gitmo inmates have no right to complain either if they are from countries that practice torture? heard u like girls fucked around with this message at 00:01 on May 8, 2013 |
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May 7, 2013 23:56
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Deceitful Penguin posted:Keep it coming dude. Next you tell me that the Turks (and they're always "Turks", even if they're 3rd generation immigrants to Germany and the closest they've come to Turkey is the local döner place) don't want to go to Gymnasium, they go to Haupt and Realschule because that's just the way it is, maaan. Well, as long as people whose ancestors immigrated (more or less voluntarily) to the US 10 generations ago are still called "African" or "Chinese" Americans, I don't really see the problem with calling them "(Deutsch)Tuerken". Especially because more than half of the 3 million "Turks"(1st, 2nd and 3rd generation) in Germany still hold a turkish passport. I'm also not sure what it has to do with a turkish politician spouting conspiracy theories about the NSU being state-sponsored or complaining about religious symbols in the courtroom, when the islamic "hilal" (crescent moon)is quite prominent on the turkish flag. Also, what's a mousebag?
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May 8, 2013 00:36
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I'm not Turkish. Religious symbols in court rooms is loving stupid and has no place in a secular democracy. It is backwards, casts doubts on the impartiality of the court and exclusive. I guess you'd all rather go on discussing how bad Turkey is in the German thread though.
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May 8, 2013 01:19
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Humans Among Us posted:Obviously you can only express casual contempt for your own fellow countrymen. And only if you have the same skin color. And are of the same gender. And the same age. Etc. poo poo, I can see where that context might make me read racism in mere casual contempt. I apologize profoundly. Humans Among Us posted:If a German politician were to criticize a Turkish court for not having a crucifix or cross or whatever stupid religious symbol, wouldn't the Turkish similarly tell him to mind his own loving business? Or hey, maybe they would even consider that in the greater scheme of things this is so completely irrelevant that they wouldn't even respond. Do you even get what his objection to the cross is? Like, do you understand the problem of having a religious symbol in a secular setting, as opposed to not having one?Humans Among Us posted:Regardless, please stop being PC fascists. Trying to read racism into every single loving thing people say really does make you the horrible person. I'll try to hold my "PC" fascism in check then, if it makes me such a horrible man. That, of course, was the real problem here.goethe42 posted:Well, as long as people whose ancestors immigrated (more or less voluntarily) to the US 10 generations ago are still called "African" or "Chinese" Americans, I don't really see the problem with calling them "(Deutsch)Tuerken". goethe42 posted:Also, what's a mousebag?
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May 8, 2013 01:40
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Penguin, I said what I said because you do this stupid crap in every freaking thread I see you post in. Therefore i felt compelled to say something about it.Deceitful Penguin posted:Haha, yeah maybe I was over-reading poo poo in that post about that dude complaining about the courthouses. Why was he in that again? Ohhhh, it was because a bunch of loving people were murdered by neo-nazis and weren't caught until way too late because, wait for it, the German police thought it was the the Turkish loving Mafia. Not a hint of racism in that, no sirree. Look i hate nazi's as much as the next guy, but you are very quick to jump at some forumsposter's throat for no good reason. So gently caress off mate. Orange Devil posted:I'm not Turkish. Religious symbols in court rooms is loving stupid and has no place in a secular democracy. It is backwards, casts doubts on the impartiality of the court and exclusive.  Does this help anyone because i doubt it.Kinda curious too what you think about Erdogan coming to the Netherlands and stirring up some poo poo about a young Turkish boy being raised by lesbians even though that went pretty fine apparently before he showed up. heard u like girls fucked around with this message at 03:14 on May 8, 2013 |
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May 8, 2013 02:44
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Humans Among Us posted:Penguin, I said what I said because you do this stupid crap in every freaking thread I see you post in. Therefore i felt compelled to say something about it. Humans Among Us posted:Yes so you attack the person that links to a relating article, put words in his mouth and label him racist, because... As for the "racist" thing, it took me a long time to see it, because Iceland isn't exactly multicultural central, but with the help of same latino bros in Germany I started seeing it and it sure as gently caress is there. Trying to ignore it will just keep the problem going. Germany has a real problem with prejuduce, as the fact that Merkel legit said that multiculturalism failed shows, as does even a cursory examination of German minorities. I mean, this is elementary stuff dude, which I find lame in my second home yanno.
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May 8, 2013 16:12
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Deceitful Penguin posted:What, seriously? Am I PC Fascisting it up in many threads? Colour me surprised. Multikulti failing doesn't mean that Racism is alive and well, it means the having multiple cultures doesn't work, and there are very few countries in the world (outside of Canada really) where Multiculturalism has worked. Germany is the home of the German people and the culture here is German, and it will continue to be the dominant culture here barring any major change.
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May 8, 2013 16:24
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Just a heads up, the link in question is from Jungefreiheit.
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May 8, 2013 16:25
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Pand posted:Just a heads up, the link in question is from Jungefreiheit. Yeah, so? Is a conservative paper automatically disqualified because it's like one of three that isn't left?
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May 8, 2013 16:29
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Riso posted:Yeah, so? It's cute how you try to pass off the Jungefreiheit as conservative. It's so conservative in fact that the Vergassungsschutz wanted to keep an eye on them, those lefties !
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May 8, 2013 16:37
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Pand posted:Just a heads up, the link in question is from Jungefreiheit. 
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May 8, 2013 16:39
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@Pengu Fair enough i guess. You said that the court case was about putting some Nazi scum on trial for a murder spree. I'm failing to see what this entire discussion has to do with the presence of crosses in court rooms, unless you're suggesting that having the cross in the courtroom somehow means that the judges might be biased in some sort of nationalistic religious way. I can accept that but it would be nice if you attempted to clear up these kind of things instead of just yelling at people or being passive aggressive about it. You think you're going to address problems concerning prejudice by being angry at people and being full of prejudice yourself. Not sure about that stuff about Merkel saying things about multiculturalism. Care to extrapolate?
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May 8, 2013 16:40
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Let's forget the turkish parlamentarian for a moment. What would you say if a natural born, pure-blooded german complained about a crucifix in a courtroom?
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May 8, 2013 16:40
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Pand posted:Vergassungsschutz A freudian? The Verfassungsschutz seems blind towards left extremism and concentrates mostly on the right, but anyway there is no anti-democratic content in the paper. edit: readers != authors Btw everyone serving the Waffen-SS after 1943 was not declared a criminal in Nuremberg. Why? That's when they started conscription. Before is another matter of course.
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May 8, 2013 16:44
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Bistromatic posted:Let's forget the turkish parlamentarian for a moment. Probably that he should try and make a fresh case for it in said courtroom?
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May 8, 2013 16:50
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Riso posted:A freudian? I honestly can't tell if you are trolling here or not. If you aren't, then goddamn are you ever retarded.
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May 8, 2013 16:52
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Riso posted:A freudian? Yes, the Verfassungsschutz has been excellent in keeping an eye on right wing extremists. It only took them 10 years to not spot the NSU! At the same time, they keep watching Die Linke very carefully (not that Die Linke shouldn't be watched if they argue about ways towards communism). Seriously, what kind of world are you living in? I expect these kinds of reality-defying posts in the freep thread, not here. We are discussing one of the biggest failures of the Verfassungsschutz in recent memory, which occured specifically because they focused too much on islamists and the left, and you come here and tell us that they should focus more on islamists and the left? Are you...are you a V-Mann?
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May 8, 2013 17:00
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ArchangeI posted:Are you...are you a V-Mann? I uh, have to go.
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May 8, 2013 17:04
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Riso posted:Btw everyone serving the Waffen-SS after 1943 was not declared a criminal in Nuremberg. Mind sharing where you found that? Because giving Waffen-SS members a Persilschein like that is questionable to say the least. And saying that the Waffen-SS drafted or had its own model of conscription is just plain wrong. They did force service onto members of the Allgemeine SS and others employed in organisations headed by Himmler. But they never specifically drafted in a similar fashion as the Wehrmacht. I don't want to drag this out to much though, because  .
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May 8, 2013 17:28
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http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/waffenss.htmlquote:Towards the end of 1943, it became apparent that numbers of volunteer recruits were inadequate to meet the needs of the German military, so conscription was introduced. The Estonian 20.Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (estnische Nr.1) is an example of such a conscript formation, which proved to be outstanding soldiers with an unblemished record. quote:Regardless of the record of individual combat units within the Waffen-SS, the entire organisation was declared a criminal organization by the International Military Tribunal during the Nuremberg Trials, except conscripts, who were exempted from that judgement due to being forcibly mobilised. Riso fucked around with this message at 17:45 on May 8, 2013 |
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May 8, 2013 17:43
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Landsknecht posted:Multikulti failing doesn't mean that Racism is alive and well, it means the having multiple cultures doesn't work, and there are very few countries in the world (outside of Canada really) where Multiculturalism has worked. Germany is the home of the German people and the culture here is German, and it will continue to be the dominant culture here barring any major change. Leaving the Gastarbeiter to rot in enclaves for decades then doing some tiny smidgen of effort to try and integrate them, then declaring the whole thing a failure is her gently caress up, not one of multiculturalism in general. I answered this a bit more below if you want a less snappy answer. Humans Among Us posted:@Pengu Humans Among Us posted:Not sure about that stuff about Merkel saying things about multiculturalism. Care to extrapolate?  The most obvious way to start would be to talk about the Gastarbeiter program and how it ended up being way different from what the W-German gov wanted. They wanted to be able to use a shitload of cheap transient labour and because they didn't really want them staying they didn't work hard to integrate the Gastarbeiter or offer them overmuch support. That's just facts. Now, the thing was that despite all this they ended up with a bunch of dudes staying. They tried the usual "Here's some money, now gently caress off back where you came from" (Japan did this recently too, with Brazilian-Japanese) but despite this there was still a shitload of Turks staying and bringing their families. They formed enclaves, which are a problem that needs a firm hand to mess up that status quo. Instead they got, ehhh, let's be generous and call it benign neglect.Do you know what Germany did to integrate them, in the post 1973 period? Legitimate question here, I have no loving idea, I haven't heard of anything but again, not my history. I wanna skip forward to modern times anyway. I can speak for how on some fronts today, Germany is pretty baller about integration. My course for takin' the Zertifikat Deutsch was cool as hell, I wish Iceland had as good a system for teaching foreigners Icelandic. poo poo was practical, student oriented, with flexible hours and you paid what you could. (I could pay a lot). That poo poo is too little, to loving late though, for a large portion of the enclaves. It helps people coming in now or those that want to move on up but does nothing to attack already entrenched problems. So pointing at how this work, good as it may be, hasn't solved a situation that has been stewing for decades in a few short years is phenomenally retarded. And the reasons why people form enclaves, ehh. That's a deep point that I'm gonna bow outta. It's a big question with a bunch of different opinions as to why. Suffice to say throwing up your hands and saying: "Fuckit! This poo poo don't work!" solves nothing. Riso posted:I uh, have to go.  And please, not the WW2 thing. I'm not even German and I'm already sick as poo poo of that whole discussion.
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May 8, 2013 17:50
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Humans Among Us posted:Kinda curious too what you think about Erdogan coming to the Netherlands and stirring up some poo poo about a young Turkish boy being raised by lesbians even though that went pretty fine apparently before he showed up. Don't really care to be honest. Whole world has always been bitching about Dutch progressive policies with respect to drugs and gay rights, abortion and euthanasia. France and Germany have been going on for decades about how terrible our drug policies are and that we ought to change them ASAP. Basically, we're right on those things and they're wrong and they're some of the precious things my country actually gets mostly right so whatevs, haters gonna hate. What's much worse is when stuff like those I listed get actually threatened by regressive fucks in parliament, threats which always come from within the country rather than from outside of it. Plus, in respect to Erdogan, his explanation for even talking about it was that the boy has a Turkish passport and so he's a citizen of his and thus he ought to care for him, which I find pretty solid, actually. Just in this he is wrong about what is best for the boy. Also the boy is Dutch-Turkish, as in dual nationality, not Turkish. Orange Devil fucked around with this message at 18:16 on May 8, 2013 |
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May 8, 2013 18:09
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Don't rely on that article. It is very lacking in a number of aspects. The Waffen-SS never had an explicit form of conscription.
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May 8, 2013 18:15
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Deceitful Penguin posted:
It took until 1979 for the first official strategy paper to be released by a German "Ausländerbeauftragter" that even mentioned things like offering second generation immigrants German citizenship. And only a fraction of it was even put into law by the SPD/FDP goverment. Then we had the 80ies where the main "Ausländerpolitik" of the now CDU/FDP government once again was "Rückführung" and only temporary integration, just get them outta here! It took another 10 years for new legislation in 1991, and the CDU campaigned for their legislation with the slogan "Germany is not a country of immigration". When in loving 1992 neo-nazi lynchmobs were burning down asylum seekers housing or random turkish families houses, the CDU chancellor and secretary of state went on TV right after talking about how terrible it all is BUT WE HAVE TO DO SOMETHING AGAINST THE ÜBERFREMDUNG TOO! It took until 2000 that finally the SPD government legislated the transition from a purely "ius sanguinis" (by bloodline) principle of citizenship to a "ius soli" principle (by birth inside the country). And the CDU/CSU was railing loudly against this idea. I remember vividly being hounded for weeks by the friendly neighborhood CDU members trying to collect signatures for their petition "against the foreigners" (unless of course my dad was near, in which case they switched to the other side of the street in account of his dark skin color). But because we then had 8 years of SPD/Green government all the good Germans can now rightfully claim "multikulti" doesn't work. After all, what are 40 years of ignorance and discrimination against 8 years of total multikulti?
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May 8, 2013 22:54
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When I heard they were going to hold the NSU trial in Munich, my immediate reaction was "oh gently caress", though I could not articulate why. When I read that Tanal complained about the crucifix in the courtroom, I remembered why: because Bavaria should stop hemming and hawing and just gently caress off to Austria forever. I'm as German as they come, I was baptized and confirmed (Protestant), but the idea of having crucifixes in courtrooms and in schools and in basically every public building is still so alien to me that I don't even know where to start. Except to tell Bavaria to gently caress off to Austria, which doesn't even make sense. Really the least they could have done was to take it down for this one trial. But nope, mia san mia! How hard could it be to realize that this is a very important trial reaching beyond Germany, especially after the whole accreditation thing, and to just accept that the rest of the world (and Germany, I might add) works differently?
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May 9, 2013 01:35
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